Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wilfrid on July 02, 2007, 07:23:37 AM
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Linky here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070702/ap_on_re_us/shredding_tomcats)
The Pentagon is paying a contractor at least $900,000 to destroy old F-14s, a jet affectionately nicknamed "the turkey," rather than sell the spares at the risk of their falling into the wrong hands, including Iran's.
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Keeping F-14 parts away from Iran has been a problem for years. Back in the 80's they found a civilian DoD employee in the Philippines that was rerouting parts to Iran.
But this still sucks.
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Yes it is a crying shame to see these big birds being shredded. Better they be used as a drone like some of the old F4's that DM refurbs. At least that way they go flying.
I saw several rows of those planes at DM and was sad to see them parked instead of flying. I think they are still more capable in some areas than the F18's but I understand they are also a maintenance problem. I hope they save at least a few for flying mueum pieces. :(
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I would rather see them shredded than in the wrong hands. Still I hope they keep a few flying. I'm not a fan of jet aviation but these iconic planes have their place in the pantheon of great planes.
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I doubt they could really do any legit damage in "the wrong hands", Mig 21s, 25s, 29s and so on are available on the private market, and those are all supersonic platforms.
I take it as more along the line of Raytheon's decision to shred the Beech Starships. It's a CYA move so they can respond "Well, we did our best" to avoid a phantom potential lawsuit.
Would you like it if the P-51s, B-25s, etc were ALL shredded at the end of WWII so they "wouldn't fall into the wrong hands"? If there was justice, then I'd be able to take my kid to an airshow 15 years from now and enjoy seeing a couple of F-14 Tomcats flying by as part of the Confederate Air Force.
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I don't think so Chairboy. An F-14 would be prohibitly expensive to operate for a private company/organization.
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Hey Wilf. It's been a long time... still in the land of the sausage and the schnitzel? :D
If you come back to AH, I'm back online... and my brother is talking about returning. As is Dawvgrid. Would be cool to get 272 back on the road (bad analogy I know).
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Originally posted by Viking
I don't think so Chairboy. An F-14 would be prohibitly expensive to operate for a private company/organization.
Like a B-17, L-25, Mig-29, or any of the other ex-military planes in private ownership?
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The F-14 is far more expensive to operate than a MiG-29 or a 60-year old piston engined warbird. The F-14 is the mechanically most complex aircraft in the world (more moving parts than any other aircraft) and requires three times (or more) the maintenance hours per flight hour than an F-18C. And I would think an F-18C requires more maintenance hours than a MiG-29. The operating cost was the issue that killed the F-14.
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I'd like to give the market a chance to prove or disprove that theory on its own instead of pre-emptively shredding the planes.
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I think the you underestimate the people who deal with these planes Viking.
The colings foundation along with operating the only flying B-24 ( I think) also operates an F-4 Phantom and A-4 Skyhawk. The 14 can't be that much more costly to operate then a F-4.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I'd like to give the market a chance to prove or disprove that theory on its own instead of pre-emptively shredding the planes.
Oh I agree completely. I was just considering the economic feasibility of it.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
The 14 can't be that much more costly to operate then a F-4.
The F-4 is a simple plane by comparison. I wager the F-14 is at least five times as expensive to operate, probably more.
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The F-14 would use about $6,000 in fuel alone during one flight. It's also much more complicated than the F-4 given the swing wings. Given all the computers, miles of wiring, hydraulic systems, etc., etc., the F-14 would be enormously expensive and, without the parts and professional maintenance, probably dangerous to be just an airshow airplane.
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If only there was a community of rich pilots who could afford to hire retired Navy technical personnel and could afford to pay the gas bill for a plane like this....
Oh wait, there is. :D
If you sell it, they will come.
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ya ill miss the f-14..cool bird and what firepower..thing could carry phoenix missile:) talk about a monster missle..i seen them on the carl vincent about 20 years ago.. fastest carrier plane we ever had to date.
i miss the f104 starfighter too...just a cool lookin plane:) if i had my way there would be all sorts of funky planes still flying and costing us money..i guess its for the better im not! hehe
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Hey Dowding, yeah still in the land of the sausage (urgh) and the schnitzel (mmm) sadly, but Frankfurt now.
Still reading AH2 OC twice a day, don't know why.
Say hi to your bro and Dawv, I've retired my joystick in favour of a small german/english hybrid who can now walk but not yet speak. ;)
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Originally posted by Mace2004
The F-14 would use about $6,000 in fuel alone during one flight. It's also much more complicated than the F-4 given the swing wings. Given all the computers, miles of wiring, hydraulic systems, etc., etc., the F-14 would be enormously expensive and, without the parts and professional maintenance, probably dangerous to be just an airshow airplane.
Tomcat parts are worth their weight in gold to Iran. I see the theory and practicality in shredding them, but it's like watching your Grandmother being fed into a woodchipper.
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Originally posted by rpm
Tomcat parts are worth their weight in gold to Iran. I see the theory and practicality in shredding them, but it's like watching your Grandmother being fed into a woodchipper.
LOL...Grandmother??? Maybe more like your girlfriend.
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Congrats Wilf! Seem to remember you were engaged to a german lass. My bro has two kids of his own now and is married. :D
I join the ranks of the down-trodden fraternity next year! Time flies... holding off on the kids thing until I've had my first ferrari. ;)
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This is similar to what Bill Clinton did in the mid 90's. All the lend-lease M14's were being shipped back, and instead of putting them into the CMP, he spent millions of dollars having them destroyed.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
LOL...Grandmother??? Maybe more like your girlfriend.
Depending on the girlfriend, I could see the upside of that move.
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This is similar to what Bill Clinton did in the mid 90's.
one of my cousins is a engineer...he was working on a burner for siren and mustard gas at these old bunkers..they opened one bunker and inside was 2 fully decked out 1940's jeeps with 30 cal guns all packed in crates coverd in cosmoline..brand new and never used!! some car club collectors got wind of the find and wrote to the goverment to please let them buy these jeeps so they could save them from being cutt up..they were told..nope.bill clinton said to cutt everything up:(...so these peice of history got cutt to scrap..what a waste..i can undertsnad not letting them have the 30 cals..but comon..these jeeps were not going to help any organization besides some car buff colectors..lol..sad sad day...my cousin was really hart broken over it.
over 1 million m1 garands got cutt up too...notice m1's have really went up in price? 2 years ago i use to be able to go over to town and see a wall of them for 400 bucks a pop in great shape...you cant touch a nice one for under 1000 now...im glad i got a 1944 garand still.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I doubt they could really do any legit damage in "the wrong hands", Mig 21s, 25s, 29s and so on are available on the private market, and those are all supersonic platforms.
I take it as more along the line of Raytheon's decision to shred the Beech Starships. It's a CYA move so they can respond "Well, we did our best" to avoid a phantom potential lawsuit.
Would you like it if the P-51s, B-25s, etc were ALL shredded at the end of WWII so they "wouldn't fall into the wrong hands"? If there was justice, then I'd be able to take my kid to an airshow 15 years from now and enjoy seeing a couple of F-14 Tomcats flying by as part of the Confederate Air Force.
Seriously, what?
And 99% of them were dismantled or destroyed at the end of the war... That's why there are so few.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Seriously, what?
And 99% of them were dismantled or destroyed at the end of the war... That's why there are so few.
If you want to see something sick there are pictures around (I can't find one right now though) that shows long trenchs with hundreds of P-51's and other WWII fighters stacked nose down into the trenchs like dishes in a dishwasher.....they then set fire to them all. Sometimes we truly lack vision.
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Originally posted by hyena426
one of my cousins is a engineer...he was working on a burner for siren and mustard gas at these old bunkers..they opened one bunker and inside was 2 fully decked out 1940's jeeps with 30 cal guns all packed in crates coverd in cosmoline..brand new and never used!! some car club collectors got wind of the find and wrote to the goverment to please let them buy these jeeps so they could save them from being cutt up..they were told..nope.bill clinton said to cutt everything up:(...so these peice of history got cutt to scrap..what a waste..i can undertsnad not letting them have the 30 cals..but comon..these jeeps were not going to help any organization besides some car buff colectors..lol..sad sad day...my cousin was really hart broken over it.
over 1 million m1 garands got cutt up too...notice m1's have really went up in price? 2 years ago i use to be able to go over to town and see a wall of them for 400 bucks a pop in great shape...you cant touch a nice one for under 1000 now...im glad i got a 1944 garand still.
The garand's price change? That happened because the CMP has run out of nice garands.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
If you want to see something sick there are pictures around (I can't find one right now though) that shows long trenchs with hundreds of P-51's and other WWII fighters stacked nose down into the trenchs like dishes in a dishwasher.....they then set fire to them all. Sometimes we truly lack vision.
I dunno man. I think it may have been that, after a long and brutal war, people would rather not be reminded of it by the tools of that war. I bet it took a while before the planes really began to be appreciated again.
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I think this is a bad move on America's part. Those planes are still flyable, and they can be kept in reserve. The problem with us now is that we are letting our millitary get too far down. Many of our bases have been closed, and now scrapping the planes? If this continues, we won't have any millitary at all. Reagan was right when he said to keep your millitary up, and at it's best. :(
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Originally posted by McFarland
I think this is a bad move on America's part. Those planes are still flyable, and they can be kept in reserve. The problem with us now is that we are letting our millitary get too far down. Many of our bases have been closed, and now scrapping the planes? If this continues, we won't have any millitary at all. Reagan was right when he said to keep your millitary up, and at it's best. :(
But how much maintenence would it take just to keep them at the ready? They already have incredible amount of maintenance times per flying hour.
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Originally posted by McFarland
I think this is a bad move on America's part. Those planes are still flyable, and they can be kept in reserve. The problem with us now is that we are letting our millitary get too far down. Many of our bases have been closed, and now scrapping the planes? If this continues, we won't have any millitary at all. Reagan was right when he said to keep your millitary up, and at it's best. :(
AMEN! The terrorists and other countries that hte us dont have to fight us. They just have to wait their moment because the politicians will neuter our military to the point that we wont even be able to defend our borders.....actually We would be hard pressed now the repell a larg enough force. And dont even get me started on the southern borders and how wide open they are!:furious
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
..... And dont even get me started on the southern borders and how wide open they are!:furious
So....tell me......how wide open are they?
:D
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Pretty darn wide open I'll tell ya. It's still not as bad as the Northern border though. We gotta do something about those freakking canukians dropping down into this country!!! :mad: It's a darn shame eh.
:p