Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Bolo6 on July 03, 2007, 09:31:47 PM
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In ACM what is a hammerhead, and when and in what planes should this manuever be performed? And please keep the dweeb jokes to a minimun.
Bolo6 actual, out.
:noid
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Bolo6 actual, out.
You are asking for more dweeb jokes with this. Just a heads up.
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Do a search of the forums and you'll find more info, including pictures, but it's a climb straight in the vertical till you're very slow and then kicking full rudder to swing the tail around in a flat skid to point your nose back down. It's very hard to do a true "hammerhead" in the aerobatic sense but it's fairly easy to do just a nose-high rudder reversal. Get your nose pretty close to straight up (you'll need to use a bit of forward stick to stay pure vertical as you slow). When you get slow (usually between 80-100 mph, sometimes slower with planes that have good rudder power) kick in a full bootful of rudder in the direction torque wants to roll the plane (to the left in most airplanes, to the right in Typhoons and Tempests) to rotate the nose back around. You'll also have to counter roll with ailerons. You probably won't completely stop it but you want to maintain control, not just let the airplane do what it wants to. Once the nose falls through and you're pointing straight down use aileron to put the bandit on your lift vector and then pull to get your nose on him. This is a great way to zoom above your enemy and then come right back down on him as he falls off.....assuming you have more e than he has. If you don't, or there are pickers around you may as well have a big "SHOOT ME" sign painted across your wing.
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P-38 pilots that seperatly thottle their engines can be quite good at a quick low speed reversal is a verticle zoom. Although its more of a 60-75% high yo than a true 90% hammerhead. Some can get it around fast enough that they are nose to nose with a plane that is gaining on them.
Have seen 110s do it also, but not too often.
And then there's the rare Mossi pilot that can do it. I have read that the AH Mossi has low speed handeling problems(don't fly them much myself). Have seen several start tumbling when they try to reverse at the top of a zoom. Have no idea if they were using seperatly controled engines. THINK they didn't and should have, but just don't know.
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a realistic hammerhead is infact very possible in AH2 even with a simple stick and throttle.
I find the best planes for this manouver are heavy with good flaps, a strong engine and some good nose weight.
P-38, P-47 or Bf-109 instantly come to mind.
if you would like me to post a film of a proper hammerhead i can do so.
S!
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Bat,
I've been tryin' hammerhead in F4U1D, and can't get it. The only true HH I've seen on film was done in a P-38, and I've been told that due to the flight modelling in AH, it's not possible in a single engine plane - the closest you'll get is a wingover @ ~ 75-degrees.
If you would please post a film of hammerhead in a single engine plane, I'd appreciate it.
Regards,
Optiker
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the A20 does it nicely, also fm2 and the hellcat.
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Bolo, next time you see me on squad text ask me and i'll show you
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Originally posted by Optiker
Bat,
I've been tryin' hammerhead in F4U1D, and can't get it. The only true HH I've seen on film was done in a P-38, and I've been told that due to the flight modelling in AH, it's not possible in a single engine plane - the closest you'll get is a wingover @ ~ 75-degrees.
If you would please post a film of hammerhead in a single engine plane, I'd appreciate it.
i have tried just quickly in a few planes.
here is the FILM LINK (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/Hmmrheds.ahf)
i watched it first from the cockpits, then from long range fixed with trails on.
Spitfire Vb - keeping her at 90 degrees is no problem at all, but the spit glides round the turn so well it is hard to dive back down on the flight path of the climb. with refined throttle practice and flap control i think the spitV can do a reasonable job
Corsair - this was a good effort i thought, if this is not a hammerhead then im confused as to what one is. the hog felt comfortable as an RV8 as far as keeping the inside wing 90 degrees.
Ki-84 - control like a spitV on steroids, need say no more.
bf-109E - not great at kepping the wings stable, maybe just my poor handling, a wide arc much like the spit and ki but with more obvious drop to the stall character. the window between too fast and too slow for 'my hammerhead' is very small in the 109e, misjudge it and you will end up spinning violently.
P47-D11 - the first effort is the best of the two, and the third went very worng but not losing very much more positional advantage than a nice controled wing tip 180.
I realise that in real life a pro pilot would draw a line up, yaw over at 0mph and draw the line back down again while the whole time keeping perfectly 90 degrees.
the trick is to fly through the stall, not stall through it. you must start the AH2 hammerhead just before you lose forward momentum and literaly 'fly' the 180 turn around one wingtip.
perhaps i am totaly wrong about what a hammerhead is, in which case feel free to correct me. none of these examples of what i thought HH was are totaly perfect, but i think the F4u gets closest of the bunch. if im wrong, well, its still a pretty move for presenting a low profile target at the peak of your ropes.
looking forward to any education on the subject and correction of my own views.
thanks,
bat
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i have tried just quickly in a few planes.
here is the FILM LINK (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/Hmmrheds.ahf)
i watched it first from the cockpits, then from long range fixed with trails on.
perhaps i am totaly wrong about what a hammerhead is, in which case feel free to correct me. none of these examples of what i thought HH was are totaly perfect, but i think the F4u gets closest of the bunch. if im wrong, well, its still a pretty move for presenting a low profile target at the peak of your ropes.
looking forward to any education on the subject and correction of my own views.
thanks,
bat
Well Bat, those were some really nice wingovers, but they were not hammerhead stalls. A hammerhead is particularly difficult in Aces High. However, you can do a reasonable rendition in the P-38. Not perfect, not even close to aerobatic quality, but adequate to show the concept. Fly vertical until your speed drops to near zero. Apply full power and rudder, and get the aircraft to rotate around an imaginary point within its own wingspan. Very hard to do... But the P-38 comes closest, I think.
Here's a brief film (25 seconds) (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/Hammerhead.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
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ok all wingovers then i thought as much. but i still think the F4u-1D clip i posted is almost spot on 90 degrees to the ground the whole time.
thats a very nice film or the P38, but alot of horizontal travel there it seems.
do you know if all the planes we fly here could even do a neat tidy hammerhead in real life anyhow?
thanks for the reply, S!.
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Im gonna download and watch both.....always wanted to see the exact difference between a hammerhead and wingover............ :confused::huh
GJ guys...and thanks:aok :cool:
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Thanks for all of the great replies. Alot of help.
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With the P38 the hammer head effect is a little different. Doing a true hammer head is difficult to do thanks to the dual engines. But it will do the same manuever nose over tail. so instead of pulling rudder to skid around, you either push the nose over the front, or pull it over backwards to "flip a biyatch" as it were. It's easier to do it though when you're not going purley vertical. if you are going to loop then pitch back a bit as you climb. Not that many planes can do a sustained slighty inverted verticale climb without stalling.
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Okay, I downloaded and saw both films, and came to the following conclusion:
I MUST BE THICK :o :D
I really can't seem to tell the difference here, I am obviously not looking at something. Both the maneuvers appear to me as the same thing. Go up, slow down, apply full rudder and opposite aileron when slow enough to bring the nose down. I can see that Widewing didn't start until he was almost standing still and so had a dramatically smaller radius..............
So again I ask, what is the difference?
BTW widewing, a few questions arise in my head:
1. Did you cut throttle?(doesn't show in film)
2. Did you extend flaps?(doesn't show in film)
3. I know you must have applied full rudder and some opposite aileron roll, but did you also apply some differential throttle?(whenever I try that I go around so fast instead of doing a 180, I end up doing a 270 with 90 roll)
I think that move is a deciding move that will make or break ya.....If you execute it and then miss ( or find a new con close:O ), you're in hot soup!:eek:
Thanks again!:aok :aok
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj6QLJn_o88
Link is to a 13 second clip of a hammerhead by pilot Jim Leroy.
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Originally posted by Hazard69
Okay, I downloaded and saw both films, and came to the following conclusion:
I MUST BE THICK :o :D
I really can't seem to tell the difference here, I am obviously not looking at something. Both the maneuvers appear to me as the same thing. Go up, slow down, apply full rudder and opposite aileron when slow enough to bring the nose down. I can see that Widewing didn't start until he was almost standing still and so had a dramatically smaller radius..............
So again I ask, what is the difference?
BTW widewing, a few questions arise in my head:
1. Did you cut throttle?(doesn't show in film)
2. Did you extend flaps?(doesn't show in film)
3. I know you must have applied full rudder and some opposite aileron roll, but did you also apply some differential throttle?(whenever I try that I go around so fast instead of doing a 180, I end up doing a 270 with 90 roll)
I think that move is a deciding move that will make or break ya.....If you execute it and then miss ( or find a new con close:O ), you're in hot soup!:eek:
Thanks again!:aok :aok
The difference is in the radius of the reversal. A wingover has a larger radius, several times the wingspan of the aircraft. A hammerhead has the entire reversal within the radius of the wingspan. A hammerhead is done at a lower speed than a wingover.
Now, as to your questions,
1. I gradually eased off power as I approached the the top of the climb.
2. I did not use flaps.
3. I used full left rudder with minimal aileron input.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks very much Widewing!:aok
Now to put that into practice:eek: ........free kills anyone?:D:p:D
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the differences are minimal, i agree hazard, but i clearly see the hammerhead widewing posted being far closer to the aerobatic version i've seen real pilots perform. the transition from nose up to nose down is almost in the blink of an eye for the p38 clip.
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Here is a Pitts doing a hammerhead at an airshow ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj6QLJn_o88
Helicoptes can do hammerheads too ... :O
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd5lHgsX7LQ
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that pitts hammer head looks tight as a duck arse.
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I think this one is well covered :aok
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I made a suggestion in the wishlist but I really think it would help out - I wasn't sure if it would be to have it in here or the wishlist so I put it there instead :)
called ''moves/acm"
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disregard idea - didn't realize it was covered already