Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKIron on July 07, 2007, 09:02:58 AM
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17- Threads started devoid of commentary will not be allowed (i.e. links, cut-n-pastes, clicky, read this...)
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It's probably the first step in the implimentation of a chastity belt law.
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I don't get it, why would they ban them?
Chastity education doesn't work, but this sounds like stupid government intervention.
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That's rather bizarre. I can't think of a single reason why a school would need to ban someone from wearing a ring that symbolizes chastity.
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Or a ring that symbolizes anything, for that matter.
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Ya know... there is relatively nothing in this story that indicates the school's position at all.
Just a vague first paragraph followed by a discussion on sex education in general.
Is this what passes for journalism nowadays at Reuters?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I don't get it, why would they ban them?
Chastity education doesn't work, but this sounds like stupid government intervention.
I'm sure it doesn't have a statistically significant impact on teen pregnancy/abortion but if it gives even a few a better or more meaningful life it is a worthy endeavor. I really don't see how those truly interested in the welfare of our children could consider this a threat to their sex education programs yet it seems they must.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I really don't see how those truly interested in the welfare of our children could consider this a threat to their sex education programs yet it seems they must.
My children don't live in London. ;)
...but that's just me.
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Originally posted by Sandman
My children don't live in London. ;)
...but that's just me.
We give money, troops, and other support to help "our" children all over the world.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Ya know... there is relatively nothing in this story that indicates the school's position at all.
Just a vague first paragraph followed by a discussion on sex education in general.
Is this what passes for journalism nowadays at Reuters?
Sounds like you believe they may have a defensible position?
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From this article, I'm not clear on their position.
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Originally posted by AKIron
We give money, troops, and other support to help "our" children all over the world.
I'm not generally in favor of any of that either. ;)
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Originally posted by Sandman
I'm not generally in favor of any of that either. ;)
Where's your sense of globalism? Not very progressive of you. :p
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There is something vaguely unnerving about people running round school yards vaunting their piety.
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Here's a little more info.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/22/nchastity22.xml
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Originally posted by AKIron
Here's a little more info.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/22/nchastity22.xml
Ah ha... so it's not about abstinence education at all.
"She was challenging the decision by Millais School in Horsham, West Sussex, to bar her and a number of other girls from wearing the rings because jewellery was outlawed under the uniform code."
...but the school has made an exception for jewelry that is required because of a student's religion.
It appears to me that Lydia Playfoot has tried to exploit a religious loophole for the purpose of her own personal expression.
Give me a break. This isn't about sex education or freedom of religion at all.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Ah ha... so it's not about abstinence education at all.
"She was challenging the decision by Millais School in Horsham, West Sussex, to bar her and a number of other girls from wearing the rings because jewellery was outlawed under the uniform code."
...but the school has made an exception for jewelry that is required because of a student's religion.
It appears to me that Lydia Playfoot has tried to exploit a religious loophole for the purpose of her own personal expression.
Give me a break. This isn't about sex education or freedom of religion at all.
Please tell me how freedom of religion in regards to any apparel is not about personal expression?
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Some religions require specific apparel as part of the practice of that religion.
Leaving her chastity ring or her WWJD bracelet at home won't make this girl a sinner in the eyes of the church.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Some religions require specific apparel as part of the practice of that religion.
Leaving her chastity ring or her WWJD bracelet at home won't make this girl a sinner in the eyes of the church.
Sikhs also require the wearing of a blade, same as the bracelet. Do you think they are allowed to wear that in school? If they can skip that part of religious expression then why not the bracelet?
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You'll have to ask a Sikh.
Some Sikhs do wear the blade to school. The blade is blunted and riveted to the sheath.
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Originally posted by Sandman
You'll have to ask a Sikh.
A better question is to ask why the school can discriminate against certain religions and the girl is apparently doing just that. I'm betting she wins this.
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Where in the bible are chastity rings mentioned? I think I missed that part. Since you probably won't respond, I'll just add that the jewelery ban sounds silly, but this is hardly religious discrimination, and folks who claim it is are blind to the real discrimination around us.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Where in the bible are chastity rings mentioned? I think I missed that part.
Where will you find any symbol representative of a religion but the star of david in the bible?
I know we're talking about England here but the US usually isn't far behind or ahead. In the US freedom of religion means you don't get to dictate what my religious symbols are or mean.
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So...
If she is not allowed to wear the ring she'll probably become a ho?
This is laughable.
She belongs to a club. The club wants her to wear the ring. Any club with any agenda could make the same argument if this girl is allowed to circumvent the school's rules.
Why should christian clubs get special treatment?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Where will you find any symbol representative of a religion but the star of david in the bible?
Also, how far do you go on the acceptability of symbols? Since the chastity ring isn't part of the mainstream church, I assume you would accept Jedi'ists wearing light sabers and rastafarians wearing tie-dye shirts to a school with mandatory uniforms? Satanists wearing shirts that have upside-down crosses and bloody skulls with the number 666 on them? Muslim girls wearing burkahs?
Just want to see if your argument is internally consistent, I look forward to your reply.
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I get it. If a school bans body piercings and a girl wants to wear a cross in her navel, she's being religiously persecuted.
Okie dokie.
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Originally posted by AKIron
A better question is to ask why the school can discriminate against certain religions and the girl is apparently doing just that. I'm betting she wins this.
Comparing this little fad of a ring to a centuries old tradition of the Kirpan is laughable.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Sikhs also require the wearing of a blade, same as the bracelet. Do you think they are allowed to wear that in school? If they can skip that part of religious expression then why not the bracelet?
As near as I can tell, the wearing of the Kirpan is allowed.
Can we move on to the next straw man?
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Originally posted by Sandman
I get it. If a school bans body piercings and a girl wants to wear a cross in her navel, she's being religiously persecuted.
Okie dokie.
Do you really want to compare a girl wearing a ring showing herself to chaste based on her religious beliefs with a girl wearing a navel ring as an expression of religion? If you are willing to make that connection then why will you not allow a ring representing chastity the same freedom as you obviously do a steel bracelet and blade (their stated purpose being defense)?
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Just following your argument to its ridiculous conclusion. ;)
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Also, how far do you go on the acceptability of symbols? Since the chastity ring isn't part of the mainstream church, I assume you would accept Jedi'ists wearing light sabers and rastafarians wearing tie-dye shirts to a school with mandatory uniforms? Satanists wearing shirts that have upside-down crosses and bloody skulls with the number 666 on them? Muslim girls wearing burkahs?
Just want to see if your argument is internally consistent, I look forward to your reply.
Your argument is invalid. The girl is complaining that if other religions are accomodated in this regard then so should hers. She isn't demanding that her's be recognized to the exclusion of everyone elses.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Just following your argument to its ridiculous conclusion. ;)
Too quick to dismiss others rights so long as it doesn't interfere with yours it seems to me.
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I don't know if you guys are aware of this but a central tenet of Christianity is evangelism. To deny a person this freeedom is to deny them their religion. This is no fad and many Christians have paid for this responsibility and privledge with their lives. I just hope no one ever has to pay that price in the West.
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I get it. A christian can't evangelize without jewelry.
Okey dokie.
I anxiously await the scripture.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I get it. A christian can't evangelize without jewelry.
Okey dokie.
I anxiously await the scripture.
I know next to nothing about English schools but if they are anything like the public schools here a ring may be one of the few ways left a person can represent their faith at school. We saw what happened recently when a graduating Valedictorian was invited to speak at the ceremony, her mic was cut when her speech was deemed too christian by some.
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I would like to hear Seagoon's take on Lukster's apparent claim that jewelry is needed to evangelize, and that this is an representative example of the religious discrimination he writes about on occasion, where people are killed for believing in the Jesus in Muslim countries.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I would like to hear Seagoon's take on Lukster's apparent claim that jewelry is needed to evangelize, and that this is an representative example of the religious discrimination he writes about on occasion, where people are killed for believing in the Jesus in Muslim countries.
People were being killed for their faith in Christ long before there were Muslim countries.
Why do you insist on twisting my words? Jewelry is NOT required to evangelize unless no other method is allowed. Nor should it be denied as an evangelical expression.
Also, Seagoon is not responsible for me nor I him. Your jedi mind tricks need a little work. ;)
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Well... it seems to me that you're the one making this a religious discrimination issue, when the jewelery ban applies to everyone. Also, you seem to be asserting that her jewelery is required for her to practice her faith... but you dismissed the equivalent things I presented from other religions, so, I guess I'm just puzzled by what appears to be an example of blind hypocracy.
In regards to Seagoon, I understand your reluctance to hear from him, the danger that he might not agree that statements that equate this with the persecution of Christians in middle eastern countries is probably pretty real.
Sure, there's always the possibility of a "Christians have to stand together, even when one person is being ridiculous" situation, but I'd hope the quality of character would preclude that here.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I know next to nothing about English schools but if they are anything like the public schools here a ring may be one of the few ways left a person can represent their faith at school. We saw what happened recently when a graduating Valedictorian was invited to speak at the ceremony, her mic was cut when her speech was deemed too christian by some.
Next straw man... Hi there!
:aok
I suspect that Foothill High School did Brittany McComb a favor. We're it not for their pulling the plug, no one would have heard of her or her message.
God works in mysterious ways.
LOL.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Well... it seems to me that you're the one making this a religious discrimination issue, when the jewelery ban applies to everyone. Also, you seem to be asserting that her jewelery is required for her to practice her faith... but you dismissed the equivalent things I presented from other religions, so, I guess I'm just puzzled by what appears to be an example of blind hypocracy.
I was as bumfuzzled as you when I ran across the original article though to be honest I suspected it was a jewlery issue. Let's review the facts though, I didn't make it a religious discrimination issue, the second article I found and linked did. Also, according to the articles, it is a fact that exceptions were made for both a both a Muslim and a Sikh (not a hindu, satanist, atheist, scientologist, etc...) but not for a Christian. No need to muddy the waters with speculation.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Next straw man... Hi there!
:aok
I suspect that Foothill High School did Brittany McComb a favor. We're it not for their pulling the plug, no one would have heard of her or her message.
God works in mysterious ways.
LOL.
No one except perhaps the several hundred people at the ceremony. I don't believe I've read in any article the full content of her censored speech so perhaps no one has heard her message? This just doesn't bother you does it?
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Originally posted by AKIron
No one except perhaps the several hundred people at the ceremony. I don't believe I've read in any article the full content of her censored speech so perhaps no one has heard her message? This just doesn't bother you does it?
Google is your friend.
http://www.therebelution.com/2006/06/full-text-of-brittany-mccombs-speech_24.html
FWIW, Ms. McCombs was given the edited version by the school and she agreed to use it, but then did not do so.
Check the media attention she has received:
http://www.therebelution.com/2006/06/brittany-mccomb-silenced-at-graduation.html
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Originally posted by Sandman
Google is your friend.
http://www.therebelution.com/2006/06/full-text-of-brittany-mccombs-speech_24.html
FWIW, Ms. McCombs was given the edited version by the school and she agreed to use it, but then did not do so.
No denying that God can and does use every situation. The early martyring of Christians is one of the reasons for Christianty's relatively rapid spread through the world.
The sad fact is that she knew many of those students and her message likely would mean much more to those people than to someone who never met her. I guess that's what our government does, protect us from ourselves in the way "they" know best.
You may be right though, her message very well may reach more due to the school's censorship.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Why should christian clubs get special treatment?
I (and many others) consider ALL religions to be well-organized clubs so although this is a good question, you probably don't realize the full scope of the issue.
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Jewelery is apparently 'outlawed' under the schools uniform code.... she showed up wearing wearing Jewelery. End of story.
Wearing Jewelery to express an opinion, is still wearing Jewelery.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
Jewelery is apparently 'outlawed' under the schools uniform code.... she showed up wearing wearing Jewelery. End of story.
Wearing Jewelery to express an opinion, is still wearing Jewelery.
Except that exceptions to this dress code are being made for Muslims and Sikhs which means the "end of story" will be told in court.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Except that exceptions to this dress code are being made for Muslims and Sikhs which means the "end of story" will be told in court.
Please be sure to keep us updated on Justice Supperstone's decision.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Please be sure to keep us updated on Justice Supperstone's decision.
You may have to remind me. My newish job allows me little time for indignation. ;)
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Originally posted by AKIron
You may have to remind me. My newish job allows me little time for indignation. ;)
LOL. :D
Oh... and here is some interesting information about the Playfoots and Silver Ring Thing.
http://www.ministryoftruth.org.uk/2007/06/25/silver-bling-thing/
Yeah, I know... it's just a blog, but some of the information behind this "story" is interesting.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Except that exceptions to this dress code are being made for Muslims and Sikhs which means the "end of story" will be told in court.
A chastity ring isn't required "god gear"... although the schools argument that some trinkets are "required" is silly, kids can learn regardless of what chunks of metal they wear.
But I would like to see her win so the devil worship & Pagan kids can dance around the sacrificial altar in sheep leggings during lunch while sporting their 666 rings, voodoo dolls and strap-on tails.. to express their opinion like the other kids are allowed to.
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I can understand a school wanting to ban things that distract from the purpose of getting an education. i support that. no jewelry means no jewelry.
i'm against the fairly recent fad of kids and parents trying to use schools as constitutional proving grounds. kids are not fully civilised yet, and don't deserve to excersize the constitutional rights of an adult.
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If she wants to wear a piece of jewlery that represents her Christain beliefs then she should wear a cross around her neck. That is considered by most people on the planet as the Christian symbol and no one should EVER be asked to remove it against their will.
I've worn one ever since I made my First Communion. The only time it comes off is when I go to bed and depending on what I'm doing at work I'll remove it. High voltage and metal on the skin doesn't mix real well so it's a saftey issue there.
I've had 2 crosses that I've worn. I still have the first one and it's a plain gold cross. The second one I got right after I joined the Coast Guard and it's a Mariners Crucifix. I still wear that one and probably will to my grave.
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZYD9S7F9L._SS500_.jpg)
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Ok, lets see if I can't make myself unpopular with everyone on this subject. My apologies to everyone in advance.
I'm going to attempt to first establish some theological principles and then move to actual practice.
First Christians are commanded in Scripture to obey the laws of the civil magistrate and the authorities above them if they are:
A) Consistent with the Commands of God - An example would be laws forbidding murder or theft, God has already commanded these things in the bible.
B) Matters of Indifference - Examples would be speed limits, no dogs allowed signs, or typical school uniforms
The only time they are allowed to disobey lawful authorities are if the commands of that authority would go against the commands of God, so for instance when the Apostles were commanded by the Sanhedrin (the Jewish Ruling Council) not to teach and preach in the name of Jesus Christ, their answer in this matter was "We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29) Similarly when Christians are forbidden to gather for worship, read the Bible, preach and teach the Christian faith, and so on these are laws they must disobey. Less obvious examples of laws that must be disobeyed would be laws like the Nazi laws to identify and turn in Jews, mandatory abortion laws (like China's), and the like.
Now, there is no command in the word for Christians to create and wear religious symbols. And while I hate to disagree with AKIron, even the Star of David is not found in Scripture. The Apostles did not teach or use religious symbols, icons, paintings, or jewelery and the only commanded visual symbols one finds in the NT are the water of baptism and the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper. The use of religious signs in Christianity began to show up in the late 1st and early 2nd century (the fish (ICTHUS), anchor, cross, etc.), actual pictures didn't come in until much later.
In any event, is there a biblical command to wear symbolic jewelery, use icons, etc? Not at all. I have never worn nor used crosses, etc. I do however have a little Icthus on my car - but that's more of a reminder to me to try to be a humble a courteous driver. Would I say that crosses are prohibited? No, they are something indifferent.
Now while chastity before marriage is a command in the Bible, wearing a "chastity ring" is not. Millions of Christians have managed to keep the command without wearing a ring (and I'm sorry Chair, I know plenty of Christians who were actually virgins when they got married) and we no more need to wear a ring to remind us than I need to wear a T-shirt with an X-over a boxing glove to remind me not to brawl. If I want to wear such a shirt or a ring, I may of course do so, but it is no different from any other religiously themed clothing or jewelery. It is not required, commanded, or "holy".
Now the school has a no jewelery policy in keeping with their uniform and it is well within their rights to enact such a policy. These silver rings are religiously themed jewelery, no more and no less. They are therefore subject to the ban. Since they are something indifferent, the girl and her family should have accepted the ban. Had the school banned her from carrying a bible to read during breaks, that would have been a different matter. I would have told my own child she could not wear the ring to school.
As for the other religious garb, Islam does state that all women must keep their hair covered. Only "Kuffars" who disobey the law of Allah have uncovered hair, therefore it is a required piece of garb. Likewise, no observant Sikh uncovers his hair in public so the turban is necessary. While I disagree with their theology, I agree that if they wish to observe their religion they must wear the Hijab and the Turban.
Personally, I am weary of the fads and the influx of "Jesus junk" into the Christian faith. The typical Christian "book store" is beginning to look more like a medieval relic shop for gullible pilgrims and the fact that most of these modern-day plastic "aids to faith" are made in China - a nation that suppresses and persecutes Christians - should cause us nothing but embarrassment. Once again we seem to be placing symbolism over revelation. Its not a good sign when every evangelical kid has a What Would Jesus Do bracelet, but is blissfully unaware of what Jesus actually did and commanded. This might be part of the reason that the SBC estimated that 88% of them leave the faith in College.
Anyway that's my .02 cents.
Night all. Have a good Lord's Day. ;)
- SEAGOON
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We don't always see eye to eye, Seagoon, but your post was insightful and presented some other aspects of the issue I hadn't thought of. Thanks!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
to a school with mandatory uniforms?
The uniforms would be the biggest problem. Get past that, then jewelry could be discussed.
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The Star of David symbol was off the top of my head and after I posted I suspected I was wrong but didn't bother to look it up. I stand corrected on this. In regards to obeying the law it was mentioned in one of the articles posted that the girl did stop wearing the ring (though perhaps not right away) but has petitioned the court for equal freedom of religious expression. I think the court must allow this or deny all exceptions. If a satanist wants to carry a picthfork to school let him file his own suit.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
We don't always see eye to eye, Seagoon, but your post was insightful and presented some other aspects of the issue I hadn't thought of. Thanks!
Rather long winded "I told you so" don't ya think?
:D
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I guess I don't get what the big deal with jewelry in general is. /shrug
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Remind me to give a satanist ring to my daughter.
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Originally posted by eagl
I (and many others) consider ALL religions to be well-organized clubs so although this is a good question, you probably don't realize the full scope of the issue.
I do. What makes you think you have some additional insight?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Where will you find any symbol representative of a religion but the star of david in the bible?
I know we're talking about England here but the US usually isn't far behind or ahead. In the US freedom of religion means you don't get to dictate what my religious symbols are or mean.
Yet, I suspect you would be the first one to cheer if they were to abolish the scarf wearing like they do in french schools . :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Elfie
That's rather bizarre. I can't think of a single reason why a school would need to ban someone from wearing a ring that symbolizes chastity.
Horny losers? :D
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Hey AK... it's not London, but this story has some similarity.
linky (http://www.aclunc.org/news/press_releases/free_speech_victory_court_agrees_napa_middle_school_dress_code_banning_tigger_goes_too_far.shtml)
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Pupil loses 'purity ring' challenge (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6783028,00.html)
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Originally posted by Sandman
I get it. A christian can't evangelize without jewelry.
I anxiously await the scripture.
Bet it's not there. Bet it's there that you are to respect those in a position of secular authority over you though.
Oh, dang. I should have read seagoons post before posting mine.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Would one of you lefties please try to justify the school's position on this? I'm just flabbergasted.
http://www.gulfnews.com/world/United_Kingdom/10137487.html
"Such groups have been given a publicity boost in recent weeks by the case of Lydia Playfoot, a 16-year-old who has taken her school to court over its decision to ban her from wearing her "silver ring" symbolising her chastity pledge."
Ummm it happened in London.. WTF does it have to do with lefties?
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Originally posted by crockett
Ummm it happened in London.. WTF does it have to do with lefties?
Has nothing to do with Lefties... ask Bill or Hillary.
Mac
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Originally posted by crockett
Ummm it happened in London.. WTF does it have to do with lefties?
You're a bit late, the lefties have already come and gone. They put up a valiant defense for the muslims and sikhs I might add.