Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: HoseNose on July 08, 2007, 09:58:16 PM
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Hello, ladies and gentlemen,
New to this game and I just need a few (more like a lot) of pointers on flying my favourite aircraft, the F4U Corsair. More specifically, the F4U-1A/D. I already use a lot of flaps, gear (or speedbrakes) and i can use basic maneuvers like the rolling and flat scissors.
I'd like to learn how to dodge an e/a that's closing in at a similar speed from about 6 o clock, or even better from directly above (when they're really fast, it's easier to make 'em overshoot but when they're only a bit faster than me, ouch). Everytime I try, I end up using flaps and I lose tonnes of speed and energy. Any fancy jinks?
Thanks!
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First, in regards to landing gear make sure that if you kick them out it's not for very long (I rarely do it for more than a second at a time). In a committed turning battle they're not going to help much. Use them in dives to prevent overspeed, and as a last-ditch attempt to force an overshoot, but otherwise.
When I have altitude and range to work with, with an enemy diving on my 6 (anything other than from directly above) I let him close to between 1 and 1.5k out, then roll hard either a Split S or a low Yo-Yo and try to pass back underneath him. In theory, he'll have too much E to follow and will have to pull out of his dive to reposition. During the interim, you can either go nose-down and use the Hog's dive speed to withdraw, or try to neutralize his altitude advantage (this works best if he has a high rate of closure so he can't reverse on you as quickly).
Often I'll follow up my first Split S/low Yo with another one to reverse again. If the bad guy was dropping on me with enough airspeed he may have overshot his dive and blown a significant amount of E trying to pull out. He's likely now below me and handed me the E advantage, so I can drop in behind him. Depending on what and who you're matched up with, you can generally turn the tables within 2-3 passes, if not on the first one outright. Watch out doing this against Typhoons and Tempests, though. Something is seriously punked with their flight model, as I've seen them pull off some ludicrous cornering at speeds well over 400-500mph and manage to pull enough lead for the shot. Otherwise, it works against virtually anything that has a slight or significant altitude advantage/airspeed advantage.
If your opponent is at roughly equivalent altitude and speed, enter a nose-low turn in one direction and keep vis on your target. It doesn't need to be a high AoA turn. This will allow you to build up speed, and pull your opponent in closer (the biggest problem with trying to reverse on a guy at long range closing on your six, is that if you get around on him, 99% of the time you'll end up eating lead from a HO). Once he's closed in (again, usually about 1k should do the trick) execute a hard nose-low break (again, doesn't need to be a Split S, a low Yo will work, as well). continue pulling through the bottom of your maneuver and go vertical. Square up your opponent in the center of either your up or forward-up view and keep him there as you come over the top. Roll as you pull through to keep your target centered. Executed properly, your opponent will lose you below his forward view when you make your break, and if he maintains his turn as you come over the top (You should be in something not unlike a barrel roll) it should drop you into position for a shot.
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SAX has it covered
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Woah. good idea. I should work on perfecting that low-yoyo. funny how the high one is no prob but i barely use the low. Thanks sax! Any awesome films?
Btw, what are the main differences between the in-game F4U-1D vs. F4U-1A in terms of dogfighting efficiency?
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They're fairly similar, however the F4U-1A is faster at all altitudes (the bomb pylons on the F4U-1D are permanently fixed and add drag) and a better turner. Climb rate and acceleration are too close to make any real difference. The F4U-1A also has the wing fuel tanks, so has greater range on internal fuel (meaning more loiter time at the target).
Of the two, IMO the 1A is the better choice as a pure air-to-air machine. Take the D if you're going out to bomb stuff. However, when you get down to it both aircraft can more or less be flown the same in a dogfight, though the extra speed gives the 1A slightly more options.
If you're going anything over a sector I recommend taking 75% internal gas in the 1A. A sector or less you can take 50%. In both cases burn the left and right wing tanks down to 1/8 first, (in that order) then burn the main tank until dry. I usually cruise at 15k, which will generally puts me at LEAST co-alt with other newcomers to a fight, (especially P-51s) and especially puts me in a position to hunt buffs if I'm heading in to defend a base. Use the wing tanks as "go home gas" and as a reserve just in case your main tank gets perforated. With cruise settings you can get a good sector or more from 1/8 gas in each wing. I'll generally start heading for home when my main tank is around 1/8 if I've got plenty of friendly cover, more if I need to make a fast exit.
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Ah I see. I just tested some settings. The F4U-1D is slightly lighter when both are @ 25% fuel and full ammo. 11,109 lbs. vs the F4U-1A's 11,280 lbs.
So those pylons are actually making it turn worse? Strange.
hah and I'm still trying this low yoyo. Wow did NOT know I couldn't do it. I feel kinda sped now. :D
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very good advice, thanks. I fly the F6F mostly, but have a desire to learn the F4U's. I occasionally run into some corsair pilots that just outright amaze me. I really think that when used to their potential there are few planes in this game that can match it. I just can't seem to grasp the F4U's flight characteristics that make them so lethal in the right hands. I guess I'll keep trying and reading the written word of the pro's.
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Hose: That's because at 25% fuel the F4U-1A is carrying more gas than the 1D.
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If you take 100% in the D-hog, and 100% in the 1A, but then burn all gas in wing tanks so it only has the main tank (exactly the same as the Dhog) do they turn the same? Is the weight difference the only reason?
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That's what i was wondering. the 62 gallons in each of the wing tanks should make the 1A turn worse, not better. If i burned all the fuel down to the main tank, then they should be of similar weight but I was wondering if the -1D turned better since it does not have wing tanks. But something that's weird - the two planes are EXACTLY the same weight when void of fuel and ammo as i tested ... quite strange. 10,010 lbs.
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Originally posted by Saxman
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When I have altitude and range to work with, with an enemy diving on my 6 (anything other than from directly above) I let him close to between 1 and 1.5k out, then roll hard either a Split S or a low Yo-Yo and try to pass back underneath him. ...
Just to clarify this in my mind, Sax -- when you talk about reversing and doing a low Yoyo, would that look like an off angle split S?
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Sim: Yeah. At least, that's always the description I'VE been given of a low-Yo, something at any angle between a level break turn, and a full split-S.
Hose/Krusty: The wing tanks primarily affect the 1A's rate of roll. There's something else in effect, but WW's calculations when the 1A first came in show she has the tightest turning radius of all the F4Us (marginally better than the -1, more pronounced than the 1C/D and 4).
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I've been trying to make the switch from Hellcat to corsair (1 and 1a)
and its taking more time than I expected.
I suspect it's because I was always trying to gain speed in the Cat before the merge and in the Hog I may be carrying to much in?
I really like the extra speed in the corsair, that allows me to reel in those guys that seem to want to check out when the going gets tuff
:lol
in the Cat I usually opened with the Immel and standard ops was wep on the way up- flap to bring it over then chop throttle and flap flap flap on the way down .. wepp back up by then Im getting ready to take off someones tail.(situations vary but without being in the fight right now I'm pretty sure thats how i did it)
(the exception to that was when fighting AKDogg in his corsair lol Slapshot in his fm2)
(when I fight them i just look out the back window and think "how the heck did they do that?":confused: )
ps I also cannot resist Zeke and Hurri bait , and until my last days i will continue to try to outturn them.. no, it does not usually go well:cry
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Both Zekes and Hurricanes you can easily use the vertical against as neither will climb with the F4U. Enter a climbing spiral and you should be able to bleed them of E, then kick inside rudder to drop on them when they have to nose-down to regain airspeed while they're wallowing.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Both Zekes and Hurricanes you can easily use the vertical against as neither will climb with the F4U. Enter a climbing spiral and you should be able to bleed them of E, then kick inside rudder to drop on them when they have to nose-down to regain airspeed while they're wallowing.
Both of these give me fits in F4U -- I had resigned myself to just staying fast. When I try to spiral climb on a zeke, it always seems able to make up the difference by cutting inside my circle. Are you doing this spiral with nose up, full flaps and maximum turn?
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Rate of climb is more important than how tight you're making your spiral. Go no flaps, full power on and WEP it, keep your nose high. If you can ride the rate of climb at about 2500 fpm you should be pretty good. The Zero shouldn't be able to match you, and trying to cut inside your spiral SHOULD make him bleed out that much faster.
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Originally posted by FBplmmr
I've been trying to make the switch from Hellcat to corsair (1 and 1a)
and its taking more time than I expected.
I suspect it's because I was always trying to gain speed in the Cat before the merge and in the Hog I may be carrying to much in?
I really like the extra speed in the corsair, that allows me to reel in those guys that seem to want to check out when the going gets tuff
:lol
in the Cat I usually opened with the Immel and standard ops was wep on the way up- flap to bring it over then chop throttle and flap flap flap on the way down .. wepp back up by then Im getting ready to take off someones tail.(situations vary but without being in the fight right now I'm pretty sure thats how i did it)
(the exception to that was when fighting AKDogg in his corsair lol Slapshot in his fm2)
(when I fight them i just look out the back window and think "how the heck did they do that?":confused: )
ps I also cannot resist Zeke and Hurri bait , and until my last days i will continue to try to outturn them.. no, it does not usually go well:cry
I usually do Immelman in Corsair against same E/Alt enemies. Works fairly well. As for the Zeke and Hurricane, what I tend to do is stay at the top of my Immelman and let them bleed speed in their turn, which as you know makes them less maneuverable, so, you drop back down onto them. This tactic takes some time to get used to, try it in TA. Hope this helps.
-WMD
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thanks, a couple of things to stick in the "toolbox"!:aok
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Thanks again for the tips.
Sax, who is this WW of which you speak? I'd like to see his/her tests.
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That's Widewing. He's also a trainer, and a VERY good Hog stick.
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I don't know if he's an expert, but a guy named Delirious or something very similar was reversing my attacks in a ki84 ridiculously. I wish I had film of it. He was very good at reading my E and getting me to burn it off trying to get guns. Those hogs can slow down mighty fast but can catch you if they set it up right. Needless to say it was frustrating, but I was able to reverse him a few times, making me feel not too horribly n00bish.
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That's part of what makes the F4U so dangerous, is that because she can be a tricky bird to make the most of, people really underestimate her capabilities. There's few opponents more lethal in the MA than a Hog stick who knows what she can do.
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The IL-2 boys don't call it the UFOrsair for nothing. I've finally got that reversal down, thanks again Sax.
Just one last question. I know it's all due to self-preference, but what convergence do you use for 6x 50 calmachines and more specifically, the Corsair?
I sometimes try to get in close but if I'm lucky enough, I can pull a fin off an extending Thunderbolt and get a kill from far out.
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My guns are set to a point at 200yds. With the .50cal, the closer your convergence the better, and at that range they are absolute buzzsaws and will tear even the tougher American and German iron apart.
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As an aspiring hog ace I would like to thank all those that have contributed to this, and other threads.
My personal opinion, ( I know everyone has one) is that the corsair is the best E fighter there is. It may not excel at any one thing, but as an entire package it is hard to beat.
Now if I can ever learn to hit what I'm shooting at I'll be very dangerous in the hog, as I can normaly get saddled up, but I can't hit the ground with a rock on a good day. (I'm lucky if I have a 2% hit ratio) And yes for the most part I do all the things that you are supose to do to improve gunnery. I will keep practicing and when I do get the gunnery down look out. :D
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I find the most mis-understood aspect of the F4u's is that dropping the gear DOES make your hog turn a circle tighter.
It allows for a faster deployment of flaps and that can make all the difference in converting a closing con on yer six to a kill-shot..either through overshoot or getting the nose around on him to fire a good burst.
The Hog is an excellant high speed turn plane..what most people don't know is that it's also an excellant slow-speed turner...not a sustained slow-speed turner,but if you know how to kick out those flaps with aide of dropping gear..it's the best plane in the game.
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i got somthin for ya heressome more help if in a jap plane if he's on your tail keep in the turn pull up roll over you'll be in postion it's like a barel roll so try that
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Originally posted by SirLoin
I find the most mis-understood aspect of the F4u's is that dropping the gear DOES make your hog turn a circle tighter.
It allows for a faster deployment of flaps and that can make all the difference in converting a closing con on yer six to a kill-shot..either through overshoot or getting the nose around on him to fire a good burst.
The Hog is an excellant high speed turn plane..what most people don't know is that it's also an excellant slow-speed turner...not a sustained slow-speed turner,but if you know how to kick out those flaps with aide of dropping gear..it's the best plane in the game.
I would not say I disagree with this , but I find most people in the game who drop their gear in the F4U variants, are not practiced enough to know when or for how long to keep the gear out:
- they drop the gear and leave it out far too long, bleeding too much E
- They do not hide their intentions and show the underside to their opponent, letting them get a heads up on what is happening ( visual clue Gear extending )
- think turning a tighter circle via gear extended, even though slower turn, is better than a well executed sustained turn, which is faster yet still tight
- they think the gear is a instant overshoot sucess, giving up oon proper use of Rudder/Flaps/ Throttle management - via Extend Gear/Chop throttle way
flying for angles, and use of lag pursuit to me is much better, while maintaining Full Throttle, some flap/rudder and cross control, keeping Speed Bleed ( loss of E to a minimal ). Rather than dumping the gear, showing your hand and in which the F4U's do not have a well known Acceleration advantage unless you nose down for speed compared to most other planes..... I would prefer to minimize chopping or cutting throttle to Zero. I would recommend using a 3 d perspective of the 2 D fight, and use angles/geometery to keep your E ( speed up )...... have I ever used the dropping of the Gear in a F4U? yes I have, how often do I do it? hardly ever.....
Sirloin is great at it, BluKitty is great at it, a few others are great at it, as far as dumping all aspect of E and forcing an overshoot at slow speed......
Saxman is great at maintaining his E and not going for the knife fight, Widewing & Badboy, are great at E fighting and maintaining E, while bleeding their opponents as well as some others also.....
we all have our preferences though.and alot of good suggestions, comments in this thread
note: note saying either or group of players above can not fight just the same from low stall speed knife fights / to E fighting with perspective......just list them that way from my observations of fighting them many times.......
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to add a bit more regarding angles fighting against Zekes and Ki-61's/Ki-84s.....
I find the toughest to fight against is the Ki-84 with pilots like Desirea? <--spelling , bovidea/2bighorn, etc..
as mentioned above, F4U will walk the dog on zekes and ki-61s and other nimble plane types, even when turning with them.it is all about out of plane maneuvering and flying for position, / snap/deflection shots rather than an all out turn fight trying to turn "in plane" with them and retain a 6 shot by saddling up.....
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Something I noticed about the Hog's awesome turning capabilities is that it is aided by combat trim. As you slow down, you can drop flaps and as that happens, the trim automatically trims you upward which gives the hog a tight initial turn. I attempted the same thing without combat trim and the turn doesn't seem very pronounced.
Now I'm going to try to work on making wide but fast turns so as to make a tight turning opponent bleed energy. Can't get the hang of it yet but I will!
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HoseNose: If you're flying for the Rooks my squadron is predominantly an F4U squadron. You're welcome to tag along with us.
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Another thing...You get full air brakes the moment you select gear and no air brakes the moment you deselect them.
The landing gear going through the 90degree rotation is just for graphics.
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haha how strange. Also, the gear seems to go in after the actual doors have closed :lol
Thanks for the invite, Sax. After the summer, I'll see if I'll have more time to go on.
Also, TequilaChaser, I re-read your posts and I was wondering what exactly is the best corner speed of the F4U-1A.
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The F4Us all corner best right around 250mph TAS, which (by design?) is the airspeed at which you can drop your first notch of flaps.
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usually you have the advantage but if nt fo that thing i told you
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I've only rarrely felt the need to use the gear/airbrake.
Fly it like I wold fly the KI84 once I feel like I have a couple of cons isolated. Just a lil nose up while maneuvering and reel em in until your ready to drop flaps and as TC said (or someone) work for angles as opposed to trying to saddle up. Depending on what you see from the other pilot. And yes, gunnery is an important attribute to being successful in a Hog using these methods.
New stick should be here tommorrow!!!!!!!twitch twitch