Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Serenity on July 09, 2007, 11:44:30 PM
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I noticed that there were several aircraft that had a great following in the voting. People making avatars, threads specifically dedicated to advertising them, etc. But as I think about it, I didnt see ANY for the He-111. So, for all of you who are remaining active AFTER the voting, how many of you were really interested in the Heinkel? (Sorry, just curious here, not asking you to disclose anything if you prefer your vote be secret.)
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My vote is yes although I don't plan on flying it, just as a gunner :aok
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heyd dude...you mentioned voting...made me think of this......check out some of your avaition publications........read up on the user feews they're trying to shove down our throats......its bad...gonna be really bad if they et what they want.
<>
john
ps..sorry it's off topic..i'll start a thread on it tomorrow
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Im not sure what you mean by that CAP...
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He means...
Skru that bring teh B-29 2 AH!1!!!11elventyone!111!!!
B29srule!:aok
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lol Diablo. No, im just curious if there was any following to the He-111. I was out of contact with AH during the entire voting period, I wasnt able to put in even a single vote, nor was I around the forums, (I didnt even find out there WAS voting until the B-25 won) so Im just curious as to what kind of following my personal choice had.
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To be honest I think the 111 is a needed place for many reasons. But then you'll get an argument about other planes that aren't in the planeset getting priority over the 111. However, as for SEA and the like it's a much needed plane. Personally, I think it's one of the neatest looking planes of the war. And sort of an icon of the Battle of Britain.
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i voted for 410 and 111
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See my sig ;)
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Actually, if push comes to shove...I'd love to see the He-219. The 410 would be very nice as well.
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I think most of the planes were and are deserving of a place in the game. Except maybe that Fiat.
Here's the original list in case you forgot:
* A-26
* B-25
* Brewster Buffalo
* G.55
* He 111
* A Japanese fighter - either Ki 44, J2M, Ki 45, or Ki 43
* Me 410
* P-39
* A Russian bomber - either Pe-2 or Tu-2
* Yak 3
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I would, I would make an avatar for it, but I dont know how lol. Any avatars for it, let me know, I'll wear it. I did start a thread during voting. I would still love to see it, and I would use it in MA as well
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Not sure why the 111 has not been in the game since AH1. I guess game is made in the US so US planes do come first?
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And yet we got the likes of 109's and 190's? Both as Iconic as the Heinkel
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Yes, I would very much like the Heinkel. Ive said it before and Ill say it again. The day we get the He-111, I will ditch my U.S. rides and grab an Iron Cross.
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I already have the Heinkel I want. A 1/48th scale diecast Franklin Mint
Battle of Britain one..now all I need is shelf space to store it :D
(http://www.pacprod.com/franklinmint/B11E198.jpg)
I love these things, but they do use up alot of room.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Not sure why the 111 has not been in the game since AH1. I guess game is made in the US so US planes do come first?
I doubt it.
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Originally posted by Serenity
I noticed that there were several aircraft that had a great following in the voting. People making avatars, threads specifically dedicated to advertising them, etc. But as I think about it, I didnt see ANY for the He-111. So, for all of you who are remaining active AFTER the voting, how many of you were really interested in the Heinkel? (Sorry, just curious here, not asking you to disclose anything if you prefer your vote be secret.)
My first choice was the HE-111
My second the B-25
My third the ME-410(though in realithy this plane was not much better than the ME-210 it was meant to improve upon!)
After that I had no preference.
:aok
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Originally posted by DaddyAck
My third the ME-410(though in realithy this plane was not much better than the ME-210 it was meant to improve upon!)
And with that we cue Viking's response...
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Oh that's IT! Got to get home from work! :mad:
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Originally posted by Viking
Oh that's IT! Got to get home from work! :mad:
Did you ride your bike?
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Did you ride your bike?
Huh? No, I drove my car. Had an appointment this evening though, so I've just come home.
Originally posted by DaddyAck
My third the ME-410(though in realithy this plane was not much better than the ME-210 it was meant to improve upon!)
This couldn’t be further from the truth. I’ll rehash the case I made for the plane back during the vote:
There really was just one major version of the Me 410 since the plane was specifically designed to be a multi-purpose fighter-bomber able to use many field-conversion kits. The only difference between the A and B series was in standard armament, so that can be just an option in the hangar (the B was supposed to get new engines, but they were not ready in time).
To make a long story short: The Me 410 A/B was a heavy fighter-bomber almost identical in weight and size as the P-38. However the Me 410 had a lower wing loading than the P-38L and better power loading (P-38 had turbos though which helped a lot at higher altitudes). The Me 410 is faster than a Mosquito FB.VI. at 388 mph! The Me 410 can carry more than 4000 lbs of bombs in the bomb bay and on two under-wing shackles. The Me 410 could carry up to eight … EIGHT! … 20mm cannons, two 30mm high velocity cannons + two 20mm, and its most endearing feature the 50mm cannon with a telescopic sight!
This plane is pure testosterone!
The Me 410 Hornisse made several LW aces like Eduard Tratt who shot down five P-38’s and several bombers in his Me 410A-1 having amassed a total of 38 kills at the time of his death in 1944, all in Zerstörers and most in the 410. The Me 410 saw service from 1943 to mid-1944 in the west as a bomber-destroyer, and as a ground attack plane in the east until the end of the war. More than 1,100 were made.
The Me 210 was seriously flawed with handling and stability problems. These problems were solved by lengthening the fuselage, redesigning the wings, adding leading edge slats and installing more powerful engines (DB 603). The plane that resulted from these changes was the Me 410. The name change was pure propaganda, getting rid of the bad reputation the Me 210 (justly) had.
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I.A.R. 81c
(http://www.aviationtrivia.homestead.com/files/IAR81C.jpg)
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Originally posted by Viking
Huh? No, I drove my car. Had an appointment this evening though, so I've just come home.
LOL, I was just pointing out the fact that it was a lont time period from when I thought you'd be home to make your argument to the time you actually did get home.
PS, I know you drive a BMW, so I thought you'd be home faster!
;)
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Ah, I thought so, but was too tired to make a snappy comeback. ;)
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Originally posted by Viking
The Me 410 is faster than a Mosquito FB.VI. at 388 mph!
This is very misleading. It is like saying the Spitfire Mk XIV is faster than the Fw190D-9, 448mph to 430mph when that is entirely dependant on altitude. At sea level the Fw190D-9 will easily out run a Spitfire Mk XIV and the Mosquito Mk VI will easily out run an Me410. Look at the Bf110G-2 we have in AH. It is faster than the Mosquito in the same way as the Me410, but even with our flame damper crippled Mossie compared to a daylight Bf110G, the Mossie is faster down low. In addition the 380mph speed for the Mosquito is the B.Mk IV's speed. The F.II topped out at about 366mph, the flame damped FB.VI at 378mph (without flame dampers about 390mph), the B.Mk XVI at 416mph, the NF.30 at 424mph.
The Me 410 can carry more than 4000 lbs of bombs in the bomb bay and on two under-wing shackles. The Me 410 could carry up to eight … EIGHT! … 20mm cannons, two 30mm high velocity cannons + two 20mm, and its most endearing feature the 50mm cannon with a telescopic sight!
That is like claiming the Mosquito could carry four 20mm Hispanos, a 4,000lb bomb in the bomb bay, eight rockets and a 57mm cannon. Sure, it could. Just not all on the same version. We'd need three versions of the Mossie to do that, just as we'd need three versions of the Me410 to accomplish all that you listed.
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Originally posted by Karnak
This is very misleading. It is like saying the Spitfire Mk XIV is faster than the Fw190D-9, 448mph to 430mph when that is entirely dependant on altitude. At sea level the Fw190D-9 will easily out run a Spitfire Mk XIV and the Mosquito Mk VI will easily out run an Me410. Look at the Bf110G-2 we have in AH. It is faster than the Mosquito in the same way as the Me410, but even with our flame damper crippled Mossie compared to a daylight Bf110G, the Mossie is faster down low. In addition the 380mph speed for the Mosquito is the B.Mk IV's speed. The F.II topped out at about 366mph, the flame damped FB.VI at 378mph (without flame dampers about 390mph), the B.Mk XVI at 416mph, the NF.30 at 424mph.
It’s not misleading at all. The Me 410 has a greater top speed than the Mossie FB.VI. The Spit14 is faster than the 190D. The 110G-2 is not faster than the Mossie; at the 110’s best altitude it is still slower than the Mossie at its best altitude. The Me 410 is significantly faster than the 110G and the Mossie FB.VI. Whether the Mossie is faster at low alt or any other altitude bands is unclear and I suspect pure speculation on your part. The other (non-AH) Mossies you mention are irrelevant to my comparison as it was simply meant as a comparison to a known similar in-game aircraft.
Originally posted by Karnak
That is like claiming the Mosquito could carry four 20mm Hispanos, a 4,000lb bomb in the bomb bay, eight rockets and a 57mm cannon. Sure, it could. Just not all on the same version. We'd need three versions of the Mossie to do that, just as we'd need three versions of the Me410 to accomplish all that you listed.
No, it not like that at all. Like I said earlier there was just two versions of the Me 410 and they only differed in main armament (13mm MGs instead of 7.92mm). All the weapons I listed were modular field kits that could be fitted at will. Two MG 151/20 + two machineguns were standard, and up to 6 MG 151/20 could be carried in the bomb bay as a gun package + gondola. The Me 410 was perhaps the first true “swing-role” combat aircraft. The 20mm gun-pack(s) simply fit into the bomb bay. The 30mm gun-pack simply fit into the bomb bay. The 50mm cannon pack simply fit into the bomb bay. Etc.
Btw. I never intended my previous post to read like the 410 could carry the 20mm cannons AND the 30mm AND the 50mm AND bombs at the SAME time in the bomb bay. Only one gun/bomb package at a time + up to 2000 lbs of bombs on wing pylons.
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/me410/me410-1.gif)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3cFA%3eJaws/a1mk103cutaway.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3cFA%3eJaws/16G.jpg)
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The Fw190D-9 is faster than the Spitfire Mk XIV at almost all of the altitudes used for combat in AH. Therefore, even though the Spit XIV is technically faster when its speed at 27,000ft is compared to the Fw190D-9's speed at 22,000ft, the Fw190D-9 is functionally faster than the Spitfire Mk XIV in AH due to the altitudes it is used at.
I recall reading an encounter between two Spitfire Mk IXs and an Me410 over Italy in 1943. The Me410 dove to the deck and the Spits dove after. A long chase began which one Spitfire soon gave up. The other persisted and gradually overtook the Me410, which emptied its tail guns at the Spitfire without effect, and shot it down. The Spitfire could not overtake a Mosquito at low altitude.
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Originally posted by Karnak
The Fw190D-9 is faster than the Spitfire Mk XIV at almost all of the altitudes used for combat in AH. Therefore, even though the Spit XIV is technically faster when its speed at 27,000ft is compared to the Fw190D-9's speed at 22,000ft, the Fw190D-9 is functionally faster than the Spitfire Mk XIV in AH due to the altitudes it is used at.
It is a skewed example and thus an irrelevant comparison. The Spit14 has a high alt engine while the 109D has a low to medium alt engine. The Mossie FB.VI and Hornisse both have engines optimized for low and medium altitudes.
Originally posted by Karnak
I recall reading an encounter between two Spitfire Mk IXs and an Me410 over Italy in 1943. The Me410 dove to the deck and the Spits dove after. A long chase began which one Spitfire soon gave up. The other persisted and gradually overtook the Me410, which emptied its tail guns at the Spitfire without effect, and shot it down. The Spitfire could not overtake a Mosquito at low altitude.
So you draw your conclusions from this one “encounter” alone? What was the status of the 410? What was its loadout? Did it carry external bomb shackles? Hardly more than speculation. The AH Spit9 can just barely catch the 110G.
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The Spit IXs were almost certainly powered by Merlin 66s like the the Spitfire Mk VIII in AH, not the older Merlin 61 like the Spitfire Mk IX in AH.
The Me410 in question was performing a photo-recon mission.
And no, I obviously don't base everything on that one encounter. The Me410 was only successful in comparison to the Me210, which was a dismal failure. It lacked the performance needed to be of use to the Luftwaffe when it came into service.
I like the Me410, it is a facinating aircraft. I would love to see it added to AH and in the voting it is what I chose until it was eliminated. However, it was also not nearly as good as the A-26, Mosquito or P-38. I just object to people making things sound better than they are in a sales pitch.
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Originally posted by Karnak
And no, I obviously don't base everything on that one encounter. The Me410 was only successful in comparison to the Me210, which was a dismal failure. It lacked the performance needed to be of use to the Luftwaffe when it came into service.
That is perhaps your opinion, but it has nothing to do with reality. The Me 410 was a very successful bomber destroyer until it found itself outnumbered by single-engined fighters over Europe. In the east the 410 was a very successful fighter-bomber
Originally posted by Karnak
I like the Me410, it is a facinating aircraft. I would love to see it added to AH and in the voting it is what I chose until it was eliminated. However, it was also not nearly as good as the A-26, Mosquito or P-38. I just object to people making things sound better than they are in a sales pitch.
Talk about sales pitch! The WWII-era A-26B/C could only manage 355 mph top speed. The only advantage it had over the Me 410 was a greater maximum bomb load. The Mosquito was a very successful plane, but mostly as bomber, recce and night fighter with the excellent high-alt Merlin engines. As a day fighter-bomber the Mossie FB.VI was only good for low-alt hit and run missions.
The Mossie FB made very few aces (if any) and the greatest Mossie NF ace (who flew for almost the entire war I might add) barely managed a quarter of the victories of his German counterpart flying the 110G. The Me 410 made more aces than the Mossie and A-26 AND P-38 (including in the Pacific) combined. And don't give me any crap about US and British airmen serving only short "tours", Richard Bong recorded his first kill in 1942 and fought in the Pacific until he was sent home to do propaganda tours in December 1944. Thomas McGuire flew from 1943 to his death in 1945. Edward Dixon Crew (leading Mossie NF ace) flew from 1941 to 1944 (and 21 of his 34 kills were V-1s). Same with the second leading Mossie NF ace John R. D. Braham (29 kills); he flew from '41 to '44.
The Me 410 flew from 1943 against the USAAF and RAF until the summer of 1944 when the entire Luftwaffe were largely destroyed in the west by overwhelming allied numbers. In the east it soldiered on until the end of the war.
Of all the twin-(piston) engined fighters of WWII only the P-38 was better than the Me 410 ... in my opinion. :)
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There were quite a few pilots who aced in the Mosquito VI. Perhaps you should read some before you prattle about things you don't know about.
As to the Me410 being good at killing bombers until Allied singles showed up, well, that would be, oh, before the Me410 was in heavy use.
As to your spurious claim about "barely managed a quarter of the victories of his German counterpart flying the 110G" we both know why that was. One was in a target rich enviornment (aka, losing the war) and the other went for weeks without finding a German aircraft. Hence we also have Johnie Johnson with 38 kills compared to Erich Hartman with 352 kills. Suddenly a 1/4th is a much better looking ratio than Johnson's 1/9th total of Hartman's.
Read some books about the Mossie and the RAF and you'll find that your version of evens is way, WAY off of reality. There is a reason the RAF order more FB.VIs than any other version by far. There is a reason that the post war RAF OOB was dominated by Mosquitos, including your "Could only do hit and run FB.VI".
The Me410 played a very small role compared to the FB.VI, let alone the Mossie.
As to the A-26, well, it was designed for one role, one with it did much, much better than the Me410 did (or the Mossie or P-38 for that matter). Neither the Me410, P-38 nor Mosquito stood any chance of being used into the 1960s by a first teir airforce like the A-26 was, regardless of the outcome of WWII.
The Me410 had nasty stall characteristics (though not as bad as the Me210), useless tail guns, high wing loading and middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction.
I have no doubt it did well on the east front as long as the Germans had something like parity in the air. Once that was gone I can't see the Me410 surviving Yak-9s and La-5FNs any better than it would P-47s, P-51s and Spitfires.
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Originally posted by Karnak
There were quite a few pilots who aced in the Mosquito VI. Perhaps you should read some before you prattle about things you don't know about.
Then why don’t you mention a couple of them. After all, you're the Mossie buff, not I.
Originally posted by Karnak
As to the Me410 being good at killing bombers until Allied singles showed up, well, that would be, oh, before the Me410 was in heavy use.
The Me 410 was good at bomber interception as long as the allies didn't have a vast numerical superiority. In 1943 and 1944 the Me 410 was very successful in that role, and the allied escorts started showing up in 1943. I know you know this, so I assume you're just being disingenuous ... seeing how this discussion seems like a "grudge match" to you.
Originally posted by Karnak
As to your spurious claim about "barely managed a quarter of the victories of his German counterpart flying the 110G" we both know why that was. One was in a target rich enviornment (aka, losing the war) and the other went for weeks without finding a German aircraft
For the first four years of the war the Germans sent almost nightly bombing raids to England. Also the Mossie NF operated over France and Germany, so if they had trouble finding the enemy that says more about their abilities than any lack of targets.
Originally posted by Karnak
There is a reason the RAF order more FB.VIs than any other version by far. There is a reason that the post war RAF OOB was dominated by Mosquitos, including your "Could only do hit and run FB.VI".
Well, only 2,718 Mossie FB.VI were built, and the Mossies hardly "dominated" the RAF OOB after the war. Even in 1947 there were still 16 Spitfire squadrons and the RN operated Seafires until 1954. Also more Spits were made after the war than Mossies.
Originally posted by Karnak
The Me410 played a very small role compared to the FB.VI, let alone the Mossie.
I don't see the Mossie having a big role in the war at all. And compared to the Zerstörers (110/210/410) in total the Mossie played a minor role. The 410 was a far more important aircraft to the Germans in 1943-44 than the Mossie was to the allies.
Originally posted by Karnak
As to the A-26, well, it was designed for one role, one with it did much, much better than the Me410 did (or the Mossie or P-38 for that matter). Neither the Me410, P-38 nor Mosquito stood any chance of being used into the 1960s by a first teir airforce like the A-26 was, regardless of the outcome of WWII.
That the US used obsolete aircraft into the '60s in ground attack roles is pretty irrelevant to this discussion. It would be equally irrelevant to note that the 109 also served into the 1960s and was even still in production in 1957.
Originally posted by Karnak
The Me410 had nasty stall characteristics (though not as bad as the Me210), useless tail guns, high wing loading and middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction.
I have never read that the Me 410 had nasty stall characteristics. The tail guns (once the bugs were worked out on the 210) were very effective (or as effective as any tail gun could be) and the remote control system was praised by the Russians and Allies alike when they captured an intact 410.
At the time of its introduction the 410 was the second fastest twin engined fighter in the word, second only to the P-38G/H which was only 12/14 mph faster at that time. The fighter and night-fighter versions of the Mossie in 1943 had worse performance than the 410. Only the high-altitude bomber and recce versions of the Mossie were faster than the Me 410 in 1943, anything with guns on it was slower. The night-bomber version of the Me 410 proved an elusive target for the RAF; not until 1944 did the RAF field a NF that could catch it (edit: that doesn't mean they didn't shoot one down on occasion).
Originally posted by Karnak
I have no doubt it did well on the east front as long as the Germans had something like parity in the air. Once that was gone I can't see the Me410 surviving Yak-9s and La-5FNs any better than it would P-47s, P-51s and Spitfires.
Same as with the Mossie FB.VI if the Germans had them in the east.
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Btw. I'll be away this weekend, so you have plenty of time to formulate a response.
Bye for now. :)
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"The Me 410 was a very successful bomber destroyer until it found itself outnumbered by single-engined fighters over Europe."
The little scrap I have in my head about the 210 and 410 is as not important and a failiure.
As being outnumbered by single engined fighters, - it could not outrun or outmaneuver them.
A fine aircraft, after some complications (?), but too late.
But I have the weekend to read up ;)
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Viking,
It is clear you know next to nothing about the Mosquito, its service, its aircrews, its versions and introduction dates or its importantance.
For fun, I counted up the Mossie kills of Me410s last night. 61, including the probables and discounting any of the unidentified aircraft being Me410s. First kill in July, 1943 (a little after the probable service entry of the Me410) through 1944, then suddenly no more Me410 kills. Still lots of Bf109, Bf110, Fw190, Ju88, Ju188, Do217, He111 and He219 kills, even an Me262 kill, but not one Me410 kill from late 1944 to the end of the war. Kind of made me wonder why not?
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Change of plans. Won’t be leaving until tomorrow.
Originally posted by Karnak
Viking,
It is clear you know next to nothing about the Mosquito, its service, its aircrews, its versions and introduction dates or its importantance.
Instead of insulting my intelligence with your pathetic evading why don’t you just give me a few names of Mossie FB.VI aces? I mean I found the NF aces quite readily on the web, and you’re supposed to be the more knowledgeable on the Mossie, or so you claim. And why don’t you just tell me which armed Mossies were faster than the Me 410 in 1943?
Perhaps because you can’t?
Originally posted by Karnak
For fun, I counted up the Mossie kills of Me410s last night. 61, including the probables and discounting any of the unidentified aircraft being Me410s. First kill in July, 1943 (a little after the probable service entry of the Me410) through 1944, then suddenly no more Me410 kills. Still lots of Bf109, Bf110, Fw190, Ju88, Ju188, Do217, He111 and He219 kills, even an Me262 kill, but not one Me410 kill from late 1944 to the end of the war. Kind of made me wonder why not?
No need to wonder, I’ll tell you: After the near complete destruction of the Luftwaffe in the west by June 1944 all surviving 410’s in the west were used for recon missions exclusively. It was one of the very few planes they had left that could do the job. What bombers the Germans had left would of course continue to bomb Britain, but after the “emergency fighter program” went into effect the bomber and zerstörer units would no longer receive any replacement aircraft.
So the NF’s got 61 Me 410 kills in a year of night operations and intruder missions by KG2 and KG51. Not very impressive. In the latter half of 1943 and early 1944 the Me 410 raided Britton almost at will, and even in April 1944 a flight of 410’s followed a group of US bombers back to their base and attacked them after they had landed, destroying several aircraft. The British dubbed this one-year period of attacks the “Baby Blitz”. Then came June, and the end of the Luftwaffe as an effective fighting force in the west.
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Originally posted by Angus
But I have the weekend to read up ;)
Do that, you won't be sorry. It's a very intriguing aircraft. :)
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Viking,
I have a complete list of Mosquito kills. The vast majority are Bf109s, Bf110s, Do217s, Fw190s, Ju88s, Ju188s and He111s. The number of Bf110s shot down is quite sizable.
The fact is that the Me410 made up a small percentage of the Luftwaffe strength. In addition Mosquitoes were greatly hampered by RAF Fighter Command's policies that denied any AI equipped fighter to penetrate enemy airspace until 1944.
The Me410 did 385mph. You claimed that made it the second fastest twin after the P-38 when it was introduced. Various marks of Mosquitoes at that time were already faster than that.
P-47s were in common use as escort fighters at the time of the Me410's introduction. P-51s get the glory, but it was largely P-47s that broke the Luftwaffe in the west.
You highlight the Me410s successes, but overlook things such as how insignificant the mini-Blitz was. Heck, RAF Bomber Command dropped more tons of bombs in a six hour stretch on one night on one city in 1944 than the Luftwaffe did on London over the entire Blitz.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Viking,
I have a complete list of Mosquito kills. The vast majority are Bf109s, Bf110s, Do217s, Fw190s, Ju88s, Ju188s and He111s. The number of Bf110s shot down is quite sizable.
The fact is that the Me410 made up a small percentage of the Luftwaffe strength. In addition Mosquitoes were greatly hampered by RAF Fighter Command's policies that denied any AI equipped fighter to penetrate enemy airspace until 1944.
The Me410 did 385mph. You claimed that made it the second fastest twin after the P-38 when it was introduced. Various marks of Mosquitoes at that time were already faster than that.
P-47s were in common use as escort fighters at the time of the Me410's introduction. P-51s get the glory, but it was largely P-47s that broke the Luftwaffe in the west.
You highlight the Me410s successes, but overlook things such as how insignificant the mini-Blitz was. Heck, RAF Bomber Command dropped more tons of bombs in a six hour stretch on one night on one city in 1944 than the Luftwaffe did on London over the entire Blitz.
The Me 410 had a top speed of 388 mph. And I made the claim it was the fastest twin-engined fighter after the P-38, and that only the high-alt recon and bomber Mossies were faster. All armed Mossies were slower than the Me 410 in 1943. I see now you're trying to wiggle out of this ... unfortunate truth.
I still see no Mossie FB.VI aces. I still see no 1943 armed mossies that were faster than the Me 410. I'm beginning to think you were just talking out of the wrong end of your gastrointestinal tract.
F.II/NF.II? Nope. 370 mph.
FB.VI? Nope. 380 mph.
NF.XII? Nope. 370 mph.
NF.XIII? Nope. 380 mph.
NF.XVII? Nope. 370 mph.
NF.XIX? Nope. 379 mph.
NF.30 YES! 410 mph in what? Late 1944?
Please point to where I'm wrong or what mark of armed Mossie I missed that actually had a top speed of more than 388 mph.
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Not to bring up an obvious point on the A-26, but we've still got hem being used in California and the Pacific North West as fire bombers as well as up in Canada. Granted they were hopped up in the 60s from Onmark down in Ventura - but the fact they are still being used in a fast attack role - even if putting out fires instead of starting them is testament to the design.
Wolf
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Oh yes, they were excellent aircraft, and looked incredibly cool. No argument there!
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Where did you get those speeds? They are not all correct.
B.XVI is 416.
NF.30 is 424.
FB.VI is 390 without the dampers as I recall. Have to look it up at home.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Where did you get those speeds? They are not all correct.
From several web pages. For such a distinguished aircraft there are few good Mossie sites out there with information on the various variants. Basically had to google each and every variant.
Originally posted by Karnak
B.XVI is 416.
NF.30 is 424.
FB.VI is 390 without the dampers as I recall. Have to look it up at home.
I never mentioned a B.XVI. B.XVI is not an armed Mossie, but a 1944 bomber variant with 70-series Merlins. Why do you persist with bringing bombers and late-war variants into the discussion? NF.30 can be 5000 mph for all its irrelevance: Late 1944. As for the modified FB.VI: Yes you've argued that for a long time. I've never seen any evidence though (doesn't mean you haven't presented it). In any case there are no jury-rigged Mossies in AH, and probably never will be. HiTech's against that sort of thing it seems.
In any case a modified Mosquito doing 390 mph is TWO mph faster than the aircraft you said had "middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction". Sounds like hypocrisy at its finest to me. Where are the FB.VI aces? I couldn't find any.
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Now, I'm gone for real. ;)
See you guys on Sunday.
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Bon Voyage, and good fishing.
Will drop a tad into the warplanes of the Luftwaffe.
However, best source I found on the Mossie so far is not google, but Karnak.
(no joke)
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Not a modified Mossie, all Series II Mossie VIs acording the Kev, and Series II was the vast majority of the 2700+ built. The modified ones had the flame dampers added.
Also we have to look at the intended use and the altitude bands. The Mosquito VI hits 390ish at 13,000ft or so. The Me410 hits 385 at what? 22,000ft or so? At 13,000ft it is probably more in the 365mph range. At sea level where the Mosquito VI is doing 350mph, faster than the Bf109s and Fw190s in 1943, the Me410 is doing about 330mph.
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I dont know much about the A26 but it must have been extremely superb at its job as it was in service during Vietnam!
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i'd like to point out that the " had no impact on the war" mossie HAD a massive effect on the war in the atlantic and europe.
It was used to kill ships in the north sea and norways fjords. This crippled the German navies supplies to the atlantic.
The "hit and run " raids on mainland europe ment that construction was disrupted by the attacks on freight yards and main junctions of railways. Most of these were hit by Mossie squadrons before the 8th army moved in.
RAF bomber command relied on the mossie to mark out targets for the night bombers that would disrupt germany from workig at night.
oh and of cause those all important inteligance photos over germany/ yugoslavia/ italy/ france were taken by.....................MOSSIE S.
But as you say viking the mossie was of NO IMPORTANCE what so ever when compared to the MIGHTY 410 THAT WON THE WAR FOR.........oh wait.....damn
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"don't see the Mossie having a big role in the war at all. And compared to the Zerstörers (110/210/410) in total the Mossie played a minor role. The 410 was a far more important aircraft to the Germans in 1943-44 than the Mossie was to the allies"
bollocks!!:furious :mad: :t
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Originally posted by Angus
However, best source I found on the Mossie so far is not google, but Karnak.
(no joke)
That may very well be true, but I have repeatedly asked him to name the armed Mossie versions that were faster than the Me 410 in 1943 and he refuses to answer. Nor does he offer up any names of Mosquito FB.VI aces. He refuses to answer because he now knows that he was wrong, but he’s not man enough to admit it.
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Karnak, it seems your argument is fundamentally flawed. According to these flight tests (available in PDF format on http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org) the Mosquito FB.VI at +18 lbs boost was 5 mph faster without the drop tanks than with drop tanks fitted. And the best test done on the FB.IV with multi-stub ejector exhausts show a top speed of 384 mph at rated altitude with drop tanks. Without drop tanks the speed would then be 389 mph … or ONE mph faster than the Me 410 at 388 mph (the Me 210 had a top speed of 385 mph). How’s that for “middling to poor performance”, you hypocrite.
I’ve converted the two PDF’s in question into jpg’s for the reader’s convenience:
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x134/xVIKINGx/hj679-dh.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x134/xVIKINGx/hj679.jpg)
Originally posted by Karnak
Also we have to look at the intended use and the altitude bands. The Mosquito VI hits 390ish at 13,000ft or so. The Me410 hits 385 at what? 22,000ft or so? At 13,000ft it is probably more in the 365mph range. At sea level where the Mosquito VI is doing 350mph, faster than the Bf109s and Fw190s in 1943, the Me410 is doing about 330mph.
That argument works both ways; The Me 410 is faster at 22,000-ish than the Mossie, and thus have the advantage of both altitude and speed. The Me 410’s engines were optimized for medium altitude, and in that altitude band I bet the Me 410 is faster than all Mosquitoes seeing how none of them seem to have engines optimized for around 20,000 like the Germans. The high-alt Mossies would be below rated altitude and the low-alt Mossies would be above rated altitude.
In any case, my original argument stands: The Me 410 is faster than the Mosquito (the one we have in AH). You may argue and slither like a Sidewinder snake all you want … it won’t change this basic truth.
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I never rufsed to answer. I simply don't have time to dig through my books.
Also note that you didn't challenge me to name Mossie IVI aces, you simply expressed doubt that there were any and I made the counter statement that there were.
As to performance graphs, there are no performance graphs in existance of a a Mosquito Mk VI Series II without flame dampers that performs at normal levels. The one the RAE tested is acknowleged by them to be far below normal performance for the type and even after maitainance work by De Haviland on that example and retesting it is commented to still be below normal performance for the type. Personally my guess is that the RAE asked for an active squadron for one to test and the squadron gaven them the lemon to get rid of it.
What I do have are the comments, some made directly to be by Mossie pilots, about the speeds it would do. Per De Haviland's note about some airspeed indicators reading about 20mph to high I have discounted all of the 370mph on the deck claims I have heard and added them to the bulk of the claims which are about 350mph on the deck.
As to the aces, I don't have my books here. But look at the default skin of the Mossie in Aces High. It is a 418 Squadron Mossie with, as I recall, 18 kills marked on it. I have here a photo ofanother 418 Squadron Mossie VI with its pilot and navigator, S/L Russ Bannock and F/O Bobbie Bruce, the Mosquito "Hairless Joe" has 16 kill markers on it.
If you think that only 418 Squadron had Mossie VI aces, well, I don't know what to say.
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Here is 418's final tally with the "useless" Mosquito:
http://www.418squadron.ca/
The final tally of the wartime 418 looks something like this: in 37 months from their formation to the last of the war, the unit flew 3,492 sorties, for a total of 11,248 hours airborne. They destroyed 178 enemy aircraft, 105 of them in the air and 73 on the ground, damaged another 103, and scored 9 'probable' kills. All of their airborne victories were achieved without the aid of Airborne Interception radar, relying on visual contact alone. 83 V1 rockets fell to 418's Mosquitos, saving many lives.
Roughly 200 motor vehicles were destroyed completely by the unit, and almost twice that number were damaged. 16 locomotives were destroyed, 23 probably destroyed, and 36 damaged. 52 railway freight cars were destroyed, seriously damaged or derailed, and three barges and trawlers were sunk. Another 20 barges and trawlers were significantly damaged. One bridge was destroyed, ten factories were damaged, and there is no telling how many searchlights, gun emplacements, railway facilities, and other various targets suffered damage from the night intruders.
Yup, no effect on the war at all.
I find it funny that you think the British were so enthusistic about an aircraft that was useless and had no effect on the war that they built 7,700 of them and always ordered more than production could meet. That the Americans wanted badly as well to replace their F-5 (P-38) recon aircraft with F-8 recon aircraft (Mosquitoes) but couldn't get enough of them. That Curtis seriously considered licensing the design and building it in the US, an almost unheard of thing.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I never rufsed to answer. I simply don't have time to dig through my books.
I thought you were supposed to some kind of authority on the Mossie. It is funny that you decline to comment on which Mossies were faster than the Me 410 because you don’t have time to research it … but you are adamant that the Me 410 had “middling to poor performance” based on even less research. Can you say “bias”?
Originally posted by Karnak
Also note that you didn't challenge me to name Mossie IVI aces…
I most certainly did … multiple times:
Originally posted by Viking
Then why don’t you mention a couple of them.
Originally posted by Viking
Instead of insulting my intelligence with your pathetic evading why don’t you just give me a few names of Mossie FB.VI aces?
Originally posted by Viking
I still see no Mossie FB.VI aces.
Originally posted by Viking
Where are the FB.VI aces? I couldn't find any.
Attention span problem or reading comprehension?
Originally posted by Karnak
As to performance graphs, there are no performance graphs in existance of a a Mosquito Mk VI Series II without flame dampers that performs at normal levels. The one the RAE tested is acknowleged by them to be far below normal performance for the type and even after maitainance work by De Haviland on that example and retesting it is commented to still be below normal performance for the type.
And you base this conjecture on what? Can you document that the RAE “acknowledges” that the test aircraft underperformed? And how would they even KNOW that if they didn’t test another Mosquito? I call BS.
Originally posted by Karnak
What I do have are the comments, some made directly to be by Mossie pilots, about the speeds it would do. Per De Haviland's note about some airspeed indicators reading about 20mph to high I have discounted all of the 370mph on the deck claims I have heard and added them to the bulk of the claims which are about 350mph on the deck.
Yes and some 262 pilots claim they broke the sound barrier. Hell, IIRC even a P-47 pilot claimed he broke the sound barrier in a dive. HiTech is not going to model the FM after pilot anecdotes on speed, they are about as reliable as fishing stories.
Originally posted by Karnak
As to the aces, I don't have my books here. But look at the default skin of the Mossie in Aces High. It is a 418 Squadron Mossie with, as I recall, 18 kills marked on it. I have here a photo ofanother 418 Squadron Mossie VI with its pilot and navigator, S/L Russ Bannock and F/O Bobbie Bruce, the Mosquito "Hairless Joe" has 16 kill markers on it.
If you think that only 418 Squadron had Mossie VI aces, well, I don't know what to say.
Russ Bannock shot down 19 V-1’s and 11 German night-fighters. 418sq was a night-intruder squadron that lurked near German airfields and vulched the German night fighters on take-off and landing. I have already acknowledged that there were Mossie night-fighter aces, and now you have found a night-fighter squadron that actually used FB.VI’s in an unconventional way. However they are hardly representative of the FB.VI usage are they? Don’t think so. They could have done the same job with Bostons … and they DID! From 1941 to 1943 they flew Bostons at night and attacked German airfields. Any daytime aces you’d care to mention?
Originally posted by Karnak
Here is 418's final tally with the "useless" Mosquito:
So during THREE YEARS of wartime operation the squadron managed to shoot down 103 aircraft. Not impressive, especially if that number includes the 83 V-1’s (the British did count them as victories for some reason). The FOUR top Zerstörer aces have more kills than the entire 418sq. Both the first and second leading German night-fighter aces have higher personal scores. Hell, Marseilles alone killed more planes in less than a year. Even the best British ace Joseph Berry alone shot down more than half of that entire squadron’s tally.
Not impressed.
Originally posted by Karnak
Yup, no effect on the war at all.
Yeah, certainly none that I can see. They were harassers, nuisance raiders.
Originally posted by Karnak
I find it funny that you think the British were so enthusistic about an aircraft that was useless and had no effect on the war that they built 7,700 of them and always ordered more than production could meet. That the Americans wanted badly as well to replace their F-5 (P-38) recon aircraft with F-8 recon aircraft (Mosquitoes) but couldn't get enough of them. That Curtis seriously considered licensing the design and building it in the US, an almost unheard of thing.
“Wanted badly”, “seriously considered”, woulda coulda shoulda. 6710 Mossies were built during the war. That only equals the production of Bf 110’s and less than the total of Zerstörers produced.
The Mossie was a great plane and all, but not as great as you’d like to think.
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75% of 418 Squadron's kills were during the daylight. If you think their record is "nothing" then you have a massively distorted view of a single squadron's contributions to the war effort on any side.
I am done with you and welcome to being the first person on my ignore list.
You know nothing and you don't try to learn anything.
You call BS? :lol
It is stated upfront in the test documents.
You don't even read my posts, but scan them and then post nonsense about Me262 claims to counter the 370mph claim which I already said I discounted.
Goodbye.
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OMG LOL! :lol
If you can't beat the arguments, ignore them. Thanks for playing Karnak, but you were a hopeless adversary from your first misguided post.
... and don't even pretend you're not reading this :lol
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Btw. Angus, I just bought this book:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KXPVbIcpL._SS500_.jpg)
It was published in April and is supposed to be the ultimate resource on the Me 210/410 weapon systems and many variations. I'm all giddy just thinking about it! :D
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Vikin. you do realise that the mossie was used for 15 years after WWII in the fleet air arm as a maratime patrol aircraft?
Mossie was well named . How do you tie up thousands of troops , wear down quadrons , anoy the command of a country? Bomb and attack them with little planes that you can bearly catch. yes thats right be a nuisance.
to be honest
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Originally posted by B3YT
Vikin. you do realise that the mossie was used for 15 years after WWII in the fleet air arm as a maratime patrol aircraft?
Yes, it was a truly excellent aircraft.
Originally posted by B3YT
Mossie was well named . How do you tie up thousands of troops , wear down quadrons , anoy the command of a country? Bomb and attack them with little planes that you can bearly catch. yes thats right be a nuisance.
to be honest
Yup. Nuisance raider, the Me 410 served the same purpose during the "Baby Blitz". Annoying as they were they hardly changed the outcome of the war.
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the mossie did . it made night bombing more accurate. diverted troops and forces to try to counter the Mossie raids. Had a huge impact to german moral . help bomb shipping (very important) trains (very important) Command and Control post (very very important) and could do so with out need of escort. (freeing them up for the USAAF's 8th airforce [very very very important]) . could be fitted with a huge range of munisions. A squadron of mossies could wipe out freight yards in minutes . That alone could change the area on a tactical level.
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Unlike all of you "Mossie" Fans, I have to go with Viking. For such a shortly used aircraft, The Me410 was great for the time it was used. Try looking at that and the amount of kills that the "mossie" made in 6 years!
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Originally posted by B3YT
the mossie did...
It most certainly did not. You think the allies would have lost the war if not for the Mossie? Delusions.
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God I love how off topic this got... :rofl
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Originally posted by T99LMG
Unlike all of you "Mossie" Fans, I have to go with Viking. For such a shortly used aircraft, The Me410 was great for the time it was used. Try looking at that and the amount of kills that the "mossie" made in 6 years!
It was so great they canceled it in August, 1944.
Mossie wasn't active for 6 years of WWII. Fighter Mossies were active from 1942 through the end of the war.
As to the Me410, the most telling thing is that Goering had it, yet was still envious of the Mossie and wanted it for Germany. If the Me410 had been all that, as you and Viking claim, he wouldn't have had that issue at all.
The ~1,200 Me410s did not, contrary to Viking's ridiculous claims, have a very significant impact on WWII, let alone a larger impact that the ~2,700 Mosquito FB.VIs or the ~7,700 Mosquitoes in total.
Viking is apparently a Luftwaffe fanatic and so far as I can tell, German = superior to him.
The Me410 is a gorgeous aircraft and a versatile one. I'd love to see it in AH, but it was not what he is claiming. The Mosquito, which was superior to the Me410, wasn't even as good as his Me410 claims.
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Originally posted by Karnak
It was so great they canceled it in August, 1944.
Under the "emergency fighter program" almost all non-single engined fighters, bombers and other aircraft were canceled. Had nothing to do with them not being any good; Germany desperately needed fighters.
Originally posted by Karnak
The ~1,200 Me410s did not, contrary to Viking's ridiculous claims, have a very significant impact on WWII, let alone a larger impact that the ~2,700 Mosquito FB.VIs or the ~7,700 Mosquitoes in total.
I have never claimed the Me 410 had a "very significant impact on WWII". You're a liar. And again, there were only 6710 Mosquitoes made during WWII. Again you're a liar.
Originally posted by Karnak
Viking is apparently a Luftwaffe fanatic and so far as I can tell, German = superior to him.
If so, then I make a poor fanatic ... seeing how I've stated that the P-38 was superior to the Me 410. I must be the only Luftwaffe fanatic Ami-fanboi. :lol
But when we're talking about fanatics how about a Mossie fanatic who derails a whole thread just because he can't accept that the Me 410 was faster? You started this debacle.
Originally posted by Karnak
The Me410 is a gorgeous aircraft and a versatile one. I'd love to see it in AH, but it was not what he is claiming. The Mosquito, which was superior to the Me410, wasn't even as good as his Me410 claims.
All sources I have found says the Me 410 had a top speed of 488 mph. That's the only performance related figure I've mentioned in this thread. However it is refreshing to see you finally admit the Mosquito wasn't as good.
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Originally posted by Viking
All sources I have found says the Me 410 had a top speed of 488 mph.
Luftwaffefighters.co.uk actually states a different number: 629km/h (391mph) at 8100m (26,575ft) for the Me 410A.
I'm looking forward to reading my new book, and I'm curious what data i has on performance.
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erm you can't undertand sentences do you . According to the rules of grammer he is stating that your 488mph(??) me410 was not as good as the mossie . he then states that the mossie was not as good as your alleged 410 was.
stats for DH mossie IV bomber
DH MOSQUITO B.IV SERIES II
wingspan: 16.51 meters
wing area: 33.54 sq. meters
length: 12.43 meters
height: 4.65 meters
empty weight: 5,942 kg
max loaded weight: 10,150 kg
maximum speed: 612 KPH (380 MPH)
service ceiling: 9,450 meters
range: 1,965 kilometers
DH MOSQUITO PR.34
wingspan: 16.51 meters
wing area: 33.54 sq. meters
length: 12.65 meters
height: 4.65 meters
empty weight: 7,545 kilograms
max loaded weight: 11,565 kilograms (25,500 pounds) maximum
speed: 685 KPH (425 MPH / 370 KT)
service ceiling: 13,100 meters (43,000 feet)
range: 5,375 kilometers
how good was it?
"The Mosquito ended the war with the lowest loss rate of any aircraft in RAF Bomber Command service during WWII. The last RAF Mosquito to remain in operational service was retired in 1956."
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We were talking about the FB Mk. VI fighter/bomber ... you know, the one we have in the game.
As for reading comprehension, I've already stated that the high-altitude bomber and recon (PR) Mossies were faster than the Me 410. If you can't be bothered to read the whole thread, then perhaps you should not bother posting as well.
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Originally posted by B3YT
how good was it?
"The Mosquito ended the war with the lowest loss rate of any aircraft in RAF Bomber Command service during WWII. The last RAF Mosquito to remain in operational service was retired in 1956."
Both the Spitfire and Bf 109 served longer than that. The Bf 109 was even still in production in 1956. Not impressed.
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If we get the He-111 in AH, then presumably it'd appear later in CT - which means we can get BOB scenarios with lots of He-111s in formation over the UK.
Tally-ho! :D
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Originally posted by Viking
Btw. Angus, I just bought this book:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KXPVbIcpL._SS500_.jpg)
It was published in April and is supposed to be the ultimate resource on the Me 210/410 weapon systems and many variations. I'm all giddy just thinking about it! :D
Did you read it yet?
(DROOLING)
Anyway, as for the Mossie, which I have not studied a lot, - The impression was always that it was a very fast bird.
Now, the cruise is at some 300 mph, - could that have something to do with it. That is indeed a very high cruise speed.
Acceleration also?
Missions flown in the most favourable altitude?
Then on to anecdotes, - the enjoyable part.
An old P51 jock actually told me this, his P51 vs:
Tempests: faster
Mossies: faster
Spitfires: slower
109/190: slightly slower
262's: quite faster but not much to worry about.
V-1 : Slightly faster normally, but with a little alt, catchable. Mossies and Temps would catch them in a flat-out run, P51 not.
Griffon Spits: Faster. could run down them V-1's too.
V-2. Yeacchhh. got to kill them on the ground, and the ground around is covered with flak batteries. :D
Anyway, I think you can never completely ignore anecdotes and as well as combat reports, especially in cases where actual tests are scarce or non-existent.
Also, one needs to look better into loadouts.
Well, off, - got to read up. Will bring a mossie quote from a German pilot if I find it.
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No, I ordered it on Amazon, so I expect to get it around Friday/Saturday. Can't wait! :)
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Let us know will you ;)
By the way, there was a documentary on the HC (I think) some years ago about the German attempts for the perfect "zerstörer" or some title in that direction. Saw only a part of it, but it had interesting film clips.
Apparently they were trying out wood as construction material, but didn't fare to well.
The only thing I remember about the 210 and 410 out of my head is that they were considered failiures. Delays, mech problems, and then when they arrived, they were not up to the superiority they were meant for.
BTW, I am reading an article of the 410 in "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" (Autographed by Rall, wanna buy?). Anyway, it gives a tale about teething problems (210= terrible handling and tendency to spin), and once they were about in numbers as the 410's were finally about in some numbers, they were no match for the Allied escorts. Fine and well gunned up, yes, and top speed listed as (410A-2/U2) 315 mph SL, 388 mph at 22K, 373 mph at 26K. Takeoff power (DB 603A) is 1750 hp per engine.
Compare that to the pressurized, early 1944 Mosquito XVI, cookie-carrying aircraft (bulged bomb-bay), - because of similar power, - a little lower 1680 Hp but 2-stage Merlin 72/73 you have 419 mph at 28,5K.
How's that?
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Originally posted by Angus
Let us know will you ;)
Of course! ;)
Originally posted by Angus
Compare that to the pressurized, early 1944 Mosquito XVI, cookie-carrying aircraft (bulged bomb-bay), - because of similar power, - a little lower 1680 Hp but 2-stage Merlin 72/73 you have 419 mph at 28,5K.
How's that?
Why should we compare the Me 410 to a bomber Mossie that has a clean nose with no gun muzzles protruding out into the airflow, or gun ports, or shell casing ejection ports, or added weight of guns? And the argument was for a 1943 aircraft (at the time of the 410’s introduction), not 1944.
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"Why should we compare the Me 410 to a bomber Mossie that has a clean nose with no gun muzzles protruding out into the airflow, or gun ports, or shell casing ejection ports, or added weight of guns? And the argument was for a 1943 aircraft (at the time of the 410’s introduction), not 1944."
Similar POWER, reduced by a bulging bomb bay and a 4000 lbs cookie?
Okay, swap out the 4000 lbs and the bulge, and add the Hizookas, what do you think you would get?
BTW, I only looked up a Mossie with similar HP.
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Originally posted by Angus
"Why should we compare the Me 410 to a bomber Mossie that has a clean nose with no gun muzzles protruding out into the airflow, or gun ports, or shell casing ejection ports, or added weight of guns? And the argument was for a 1943 aircraft (at the time of the 410’s introduction), not 1944."
Similar POWER, reduced by a bulging bomb bay and a 4000 lbs cookie?
Okay, swap out the 4000 lbs and the bulge, and add the Hizookas, what do you think you would get?
BTW, I only looked up a Mossie with similar HP.
No 4000 lbs cookie. Max speed tests are done clean, without ordnance, but not without fixed armament like guns. Similar power means nothing. Similar role and similar operational date matters. I was comparing the Me 410 to the Mossie in AH now. However I was not very clear on that and Karnak had a fit.
Comparing the Me 410 to any other Mossie then the FB.VI would be comparing apples and oranges. The bomber and recon mossies were highly specialized planes that were streamlined and fitted for maximum speed; it was their only defense. The Me 410 is a multi-role combat aircraft with defencive armament and more than 140 different weapons permutations; only the Mossie FB.VI comes close (not really) to the Me 410's versatility. Comparing a high-altitude Mossie bomber to the Me 410 would be just as meaningless as comparing the Arado 234 with the P-51D. Sure the Arado is faster, but it can't do the same job as the P-51; same with the B Mossie.
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Ahemm.
This Mossie has a bulging belly for the cookie. That, for parasite drag, may do more on it's own than some weight in the original (sleeker) airframe. Yet, the top speed numbers are significant.
I didn't look into the weights and wingloadings yet, but regarding this:
"Comparing the Me 410 to any other Mossie then the FB.VI would be comparing apples and oranges. The bomber and recon mossies were highly specialized planes that were streamlined and fitted for maximum speed; it was their only defense. The Me 410 is a multi-role combat aircraft with defencive armament"
I must say:
1: AFAIK the defensive armament in the barbettes was found to be pretty much useless and thereby not worth it's weight.
2: This bomber Mossie is bulged-out to carry a 4000 lbs bomb, as well as a bombardier.
3: As for multi-role, the mossie was merely used for (no particular order) intruding, ground attack, interception, photo reconnicanse, pathfinding, bombing, anti-shipping, secret ops (to Sweden even), and offensive as well as defensive radar equipped night fighting. Guess that is a narrow path with few hours to go compared to the 410.?????
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Well, according to Viking we can only compare the Me410 to the specific model he selects. He won't compare it to the NF.XIX or the NF.30, because those Mosquitoes are obviously superior, even though they are not much later (if later at all in the case of the XIX). Instead he insists that the high blown Me410 be compared to the low blown FB.VI, but that speeds across the altitude range should not be looked at in any way, but just the top speed at whatever the best altitude is. The fact that the FB.VI does 380-390ish at 14,000ft compared to the 385-395ish of the Me410 at 22,000ft apparently means a lot in combat terms, but the fact that the FB.VI did 340-350ish at sea level where the Me410 did 315-325ish is meaningless.
He absurdly thinks that the 1200 Me410s were more significant than the 2700 FB.VIs, even though one is considered to be a failure and the other is considered one of the best aircraft of the war. Hint, the Me410 isn't ever going to be put in the list of "Best Fighting Aircraft of WWII".
He completely discounts any reason the RAF might have ordered FB.VIs as fast as they could and instead insists that, for example, the record of one of the top squadrons in the RAF, 418 Squadron, is "nothing" and their horrible record just proves how useless the Mossie was. His coments about 418 Squadron alone are almost impossible to understand. I don't rightly have a response to them.
By Viking's take, the RAF and Luftwaffe procurment and high commands were both full of drooling morons, the RAF for buying Mossies and the Luftwaffe for canceling the Me410 after less than two years of production.
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Well, stamping out 109's was at that time a more economical thing.
Didn't they have problems with engine quantity near the end?
Then there was always politics, and some high-uppers did not like Willy Messerchmitt. Milch?
Oh, maybe we should compare the Hornet to the Hornet? After all they have the same name :D
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The Bf110 was in production until Feb, 1945. If the Me410 was so great, why terminate production of the Me410 while keeping the admittedly lackluster Bf110 in production a full six months longer?
Maybe the RLM found the Bf110 to be more useful?
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Definately a production line issue, or manufacture complications issue, maybe also something with materials.
But 110 runs on DB 601 then 605, and 410 runs on 603 which is another thing. AFAIK. Hence the question.
210 seems to have been a flop due to handling, and 410 is a "cured" 210 basically. While a "cured" 210 would have had it's field day as the finest twin fighter in the world in 1941 or so, it was not up to scratch, and when the 410 arrived it was no match for a .... P51?
Just thinking. But really, you would probably really build 3-5 109 G-14's from the same resources as one 410, and what the Germans needed was really a defensive fighter, not offensive, - right from 1943 MINUS :D
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Originally posted by Angus
Ahemm.
[serious voice] Don’t “Ahemm” ME young man! [/serious voice] ;)
Originally posted by Angus
This Mossie has a bulging belly for the cookie. That, for parasite drag, may do more on it's own than some weight in the original (sleeker) airframe. Yet, the top speed numbers are significant.
Yes the top speed numbers are very significant, but also completely irrelevant: I have never ever argued that the bomber, recce or late-war Mosquitoes were anything but faster and better than the Me 410. Karnaks blatant accusation is the crux of this discussion:
Originally posted by Karnak
The Me410 had nasty stall characteristics (though not as bad as the Me210), useless tail guns, high wing loading and middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction.
… AT … THE … TIME … OF … ITS … INTRODUCTION
That was the summer of 1943. I have NEVER argued that the Me 410 was superior to the Mossie only that if the Me 410 had “middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction”, then so did the Mossie FB.VI. You see, Karnak’s hypocritical position is that the Me 410 had “middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction” while the Mossie FB.VI did not … even if it entered service at almost the same time and had very similar performance. It is THIS hypocrisy I have been arguing against, and it is this hypocrisy that Karnak had tried time and time again to wiggle his way out of.
Again, just so there is no room for misunderstanding: The bomber, recce, many NF’s, and all 1944-45 Mossies were faster than the Me 410 … even the FB.VI in 1944 since with Merlin 25 engines they could use +25 lbs boost in early 1944.
I am ONLY arguing that in the summer of 1943 the Me 410 did NOT have “middling to poor performance at the time of its introduction”. It was in fact the second fastest twin-engined FIGHTER in the world. Second only to the P-38.
Originally posted by Angus
I didn't look into the weights and wingloadings yet, but regarding this:
"Comparing the Me 410 to any other Mossie then the FB.VI would be comparing apples and oranges. The bomber and recon mossies were highly specialized planes that were streamlined and fitted for maximum speed; it was their only defense. The Me 410 is a multi-role combat aircraft with defencive armament"
I must say:
1: AFAIK the defensive armament in the barbettes was found to be pretty much useless and thereby not worth it's weight.
2: This bomber Mossie is bulged-out to carry a 4000 lbs bomb, as well as a bombardier.
3: As for multi-role, the mossie was merely used for (no particular order) intruding, ground attack, interception, photo reconnicanse, pathfinding, bombing, anti-shipping, secret ops (to Sweden even), and offensive as well as defensive radar equipped night fighting. Guess that is a narrow path with few hours to go compared to the 410.?????
Then I must say:
1. The remote control system was praised by the allies when they captured an intact Me 410. When I get my book I will get back to you on this weapon system.
2. The bulge is long, slender and does not impact top speed much. Comparing with other B Mossies I guessimate a loss of 10-15 mph? The bomber Mossies were still crewed by only two people. The Naviator doubled as the bombardier.
3. Tell me which ONE Mossie could do all that. The Mossie was made in a lot of specialized versions that did only ONE thing. All except the FB.VI. The Me 410 was mostly made in only two versions the A and B series, and they only differed in upgraded fixed armament. The Me 410A/B could with a couple hours of work by the ground crews bomb Britton in the morning with 4000 lbs of bombs, shoot down American bombers during the day using anything in the LW arsenal up to and including the 50mm cannon, hunt ships in the evening with torpedoes and surface radar, and shoot down British bombers at night with cannons and an intercept radar. Of course no Me 410 did all that in one day, but in theory it could be used like that and THAT … makes it Multi-Role. Just because you make a lot of different, very specialized planes based on the same airframe, does NOT make them Multi-Role. They are all Single-Role. All except the FB.VI that is. (There might be other late-war Mossies that were multi-role though. I don’t know much about them.)
Originally posted by Karnak
Well, according to Viking we can only compare the Me410 to the specific model he selects.
You may compare the Me 410 to Santa’s sled for all I care. It sure won’t make any less sense than your other comparisons.
Originally posted by Karnak
Instead he insists that the high blown Me410 be compared to the low blown FB.VI, but that speeds across the altitude range should not be looked at in any way, but just the top speed at whatever the best altitude is. The fact that the FB.VI does 380-390ish at 14,000ft compared to the 385-395ish of the Me410 at 22,000ft apparently means a lot in combat terms, but the fact that the FB.VI did 340-350ish at sea level where the Me410 did 315-325ish is meaningless.
In Aces High the Mossie’s high deck speed will indeed be important and far from meaningless. Also in real-life it was good for escaping when they did HIT AND RUN MISSIONS. Very little combat took place on the deck … as opposed to 26,000 feet.
Originally posted by Karnak
He absurdly thinks that the 1200 Me410s were more significant than the 2700 FB.Vis…
I have never said that. You’re a liar.
Originally posted by Karnak
Hint, the Me410 isn't ever going to be put in the list of "Best Fighting Aircraft of WWII".
No it sure ain’t no P-47 Mustang! The plane that Won The War™. Of course I have also never seen the Mosquito in any of the “10 best fighters” etc. on Discovery. Probably never will … because it’s no P-47 Mustang either.
Originally posted by Karnak
He completely discounts any reason the RAF might have ordered FB.VIs as fast as they could…
I have never said that. You’re a liar.
Originally posted by Karnak
… and instead insists that, for example, the record of one of the top squadrons in the RAF, 418 Squadron, is "nothing" …
I have never said their record was “nothing”. You’re a liar.
Originally posted by Karnak
By Viking's take, the RAF and Luftwaffe procurment and high commands were both full of drooling morons, the RAF for buying Mossies and the Luftwaffe for canceling the Me410 after less than two years of production.
Unlike you I actually understand the logic behind their decisions instead of your simpleton reasoning. And in spite of your ineptitudes at reading my mind I actually understand why the Germans cancelled the Me 410, and agree it was the right thing to do.
Originally posted by Karnak
The Bf110 was in production until Feb, 1945. If the Me410 was so great, why terminate production of the Me410 while keeping the admittedly lackluster Bf110 in production a full six months longer?
Maybe the RLM found the Bf110 to be more useful?
The Me 410 production ended in September 1944. The Bf 110 still in production was the G-4 night-fighter. The Me 410 was not much used in that role since the Bf 110 was more than adequate for the job, and the Me 410 was needed for day-operations. So instead of converting all the NJG to a new aircraft and stopping Bf 110 production the Germans did the logical thing and ended Me 410 production. This also allowed them to halt DB 603 production (since the other DB 603 powered planes were also cancelled) and concentrate on the DB 605 engine which both the 109 and 110 used.
It is a sad day. I had always thought Karnak was an honest and intelligent person that could see the more complex processes and decision-making that determined aircraft production, fitting and performance. I should have realized sooner that he is a liar and a simpleton.
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Viking.... (in a serious and deep-booming voice ;))
"The Mossie was made in a lot of specialized versions that did only ONE thing"
The very fast NF could surely live and strafe in daylight. Not sure about ordnance though, and the bomb-bay area. Racks? mountings for racks?
All possible and a question of choice and logistics I guess.
As for the 410 handling, all I read was that the problems of the 210 had been cured. Didn't see anything about nasty, and still haven't looked into things like ROC and wing loading.
Oh, p.s. I have seen (probably at Hendon) a Mossie that was used to carry people on runs as far as to Sweden. A "bed" in the bomb-bay. Anyway, beautiful bird.
ps2. Was I right about the engines? You would find this faster than me.
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Originally posted by Angus
The very fast NF could surely live and strafe in daylight. Not sure about ordnance though, and the bomb-bay area. Racks? mountings for racks?
Strafe, yes. However you did not only mention “strafe” in you considerable list of things you meant the Mossie could do. Of course “the” Mossie was in reality “a whole lot of” Mossies. I believe the bomb bay was used for carrying more fuel in the NF’s.
Originally posted by Angus
All possible and a question of choice and logistics I guess.
Yes and the British decided to go with a number of specialized versions, while the Germans did the opposite.
Originally posted by Angus
Anyway, beautiful bird.
Unquestionably.
Originally posted by Angus
ps2. Was I right about the engines? You would find this faster than me.
I’m sorry, I must have missed that one. What was the question?
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Angus, have I offended you or something? :confused:
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huh? Oh, no.
The engines yes. Am I not right that the DB 603 is a good deal different from both the 601 and 605? Like bigger from the start? I felt sure you would have this in your head, that's all.
BTW, you are from Bodö, right? Unrelated to this thread, if you are, I have 2 questions for you ;)
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Originally posted by Angus
huh? Oh, no.
Good. I was getting worried.
Originally posted by Angus
The engines yes. Am I not right that the DB 603 is a good deal different from both the 601 and 605? Like bigger from the start? I felt sure you would have this in your head, that's all.
Yes the DB 603 was quite bigger than the DB 605. In comparison it was like the Griffon in relation to the Merlin.
Originally posted by Angus
BTW, you are from Bodö, right? Unrelated to this thread, if you are, I have 2 questions for you ;)
Yup I am. Shoot :)
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Ok.
First, I am looking into LW ops in N-Norway, - those who were flying over here.
There is a story of a He-111 (probably) who was hit by flak over Reykjavik, and belly-landed some good distance away. It was either spring 1941 or 1942 (have to call to find better out).
Anyway, it has been claimed that the crew actually made it back home! They went se, crossed the (guarded) bridge at Selfoss, headed east, then to the coast, got a small boat, rowed to Heymaey and boarded a Spanish ship which took them home.
So, I'm trying to have a go at where the aircraft could have come from, and some loss reports perhaps.
The second thing is different, - I am looking for grass-seed from Norway!!!
It is a special blend, called "Blomsterenge", - a flower meadow.
Any thoughts who to contact or ask? Agricultural colleges.
You can email me at info@gardsauki.is so we can go back into the 410 business :D
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Originally posted by Angus
Ok.
First, I am looking into LW ops in N-Norway, - those who were flying over here.
There is a story of a He-111 (probably) who was hit by flak over Reykjavik, and belly-landed some good distance away. It was either spring 1941 or 1942 (have to call to find better out).
Anyway, it has been claimed that the crew actually made it back home! They went se, crossed the (guarded) bridge at Selfoss, headed east, then to the coast, got a small boat, rowed to Heymaey and boarded a Spanish ship which took them home.
So, I'm trying to have a go at where the aircraft could have come from, and some loss reports perhaps.
I've never heard that story before, but these sites might help you. They have complete lists of all Luftwaffe losses in Norway and northern Finland during WWII:
http://www.luftwaffe.no
http://www.rafandluftwaffe.info
Good luck! ;)
Originally posted by Angus
The second thing is different, - I am looking for grass-seed from Norway!!!
It is a special blend, called "Blomsterenge", - a flower meadow.
Any thoughts who to contact or ask? Agricultural colleges.
This company sells Blomstereng (blomster-eng literally means flower-meadow :)) and other seeds online, they can perhaps help you:
http://www.leuthens.no/VisItmGrp.html?ID=1439
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Thanks! Great! :aok
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Anytime :)
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Hello again.
FYI, I mostly live of turf growing, (I practically quit in the beef business) and a Flowermeadow- Blomsterenge- Blumenwiese is next on the market list. Nobody in the country has it yet and nobody in the business reads these threads :t
Hopefully the business will get good enough for me to see many an airshow, and buy myself a Spitfire Mk 26 in 2010. Actually not kidding ;)
While the flowers grow I have to settle with smaller things, - but some are fun, - will be in Germany in September, and have a week for explorations. If Gunther Rall is at home, I will pop in for a cup of coffee, - if he is at home that is. (89 years and travels extensively to USA and UK to see old friends).
That was no kidding, just talked to him the other day.
And then to the LW in Norway.
This particular information of the escaping crew actually landed on me through my eye-doctor. He was studying in Munchen and making "praktikum" on a big hospital, when a patient approached him and asked him if he was an Icelander. He says "yes", and then got a first hand account on this event, - the patient was one of the crew. He had cancer and died shortly after. This was in the 1970's.
The doctor later went into exploring this, and being an outdoors person, and a cave explorer as well, managed to find parts of an aircraft on the site described as the crashing site. He went into research, like trying to find the docking logs in Heimaey from the time (Westman Islands), but they were gone. He was asking about, and was met with some coldness from the people he asked, so he stopped his research, but wrote an article about what he knew. (The German said to him: "I want to tell you something since you are an Icelander, because it happened to me and it is a part of your history")
It was published some 10 or even 15 years ago, but the mystery was never solved.
From here, there are no records of a retrived wreck. (The crew blew it up actually). And for the ack-weenies shooting off, that was many times. Those intruders from Norway made many many flights over here.
There are no harbour logs from the time for some reason. (Heimaey).
He told me that he had the feel from his research that he might be opening "old wounds", and therefore he stopped. There is a good possibility that he is right, - I do have accounts that marooned Germans were helped by the locals, - after the British/Americans came here. People felt sorry for young men being shunted to prison camps.
So, in short, there is a probability that they were "aided" to get away. "Here's the boat" (turns a blind eye)
I talked to a history professor who's field is WW2 up here, - he claims it's a myth. But I am more than ready to do some research and maybe go and see if I find some part of the wreck.
The touchy people that the doctor called at the time are now mostly dead.
So, time to go ;)
The
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Well, good luck with your business, and good luck with your investigations! :)
PS: If you buy that Spit you have to let me back-seat in it it for a ride! (I'll have to wear shades so nobody will recognize me in a Dweebfire, but it will be worth it!) ;)
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If your going to sow wild flowers in your turf remember to chain harrow every spring. This will encourage any seed to sprout as the ylike to have the soil disturbed . You have to o it VERY early in the season for best results.
P.S i was a pro green keeper on a championship course here in the UK that
was on a nature sanctuary .
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Interesting.
Would you mind if I started a turf thread?
I'm serious. There might be more growers ind interested in the community!
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LOL OK DUDE
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DOH!
I left for Harstad on Saturday to visit my father, and the book hadn't arrived yet. So now it will be over a week before I get to read it! I got an e-mail that it had arrived at the post office about two hours after I left town, and now it's 300 km away! :mad:
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That's what you get for living in a long and fjordy country :D
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Indeed :mad:
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Originally posted by Viking
Btw. Angus, I just bought this book:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KXPVbIcpL._SS500_.jpg)
It was published in April and is supposed to be the ultimate resource on the Me 210/410 weapon systems and many variations. I'm all giddy just thinking about it! :D
Went to Barnes & Noble (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781903223727&itm=1) to buy a copy. Found this on the website.
"Available for Pre-Order
This item will be available on August 15."
:cry
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I feel for you :(
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I just got it! :D
First impression: Excellent! Detailed production history beginning in the 1930's, lots of scans of original documents and a complete listing of all werk-numbers w/info. A thorough breakdown of the various Me 210 and 410 variants and a gallery of photos. The only let down was the lack of specific performance figures for the different variants. It only lists the maximum speed of the Scnellbomber at maximum weight. Perhaps there are more performance data embedded in the text, I haven't had time to read it yet.
Interestingly the 13 mm defensive armament was modular like most of the plane, and could be exchanged for other equipment like electronic equipment, extended-range fuel tanks and boost-systems like GM1 for the Zerstörers. I would really like to see performance figures for a Me 410 with GM1! :aok
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Maximum load means tanked to the top and with max weight of ordnance?
I'd still like to see those ;)
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Sure! :)
Me 410 A-1 Schnellbomber at maximum weight (I think that would have to include external ord. as well, but it is not specified either way):
Max speed at SL: 485 km/h (301 mph)
Max speed at 6300 m (20,669 ft): 575 km/h (357 mph)
In addition to the FuG 16 radio the Schnellbomber carried the following electronic equipment: FuG 10, FuG 25, Peil G V, and FuBI 1.
Also I finally found out what the difference between the A and B series was: The A series were converted Me 210 airframes while the B series were new-built Me 410s.
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The conversion was the wings (total?) and the tailplane?
Or was there a nose/frontal issue as well?
AFAIK the 210 problem was all about control. Pitch and yaw?
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Mainly wings, fuselage and engines. Minor changes to the bomb-bay and other systems.
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Wings, and fuselage. Ok. Engines, DB603 from the start anyway?
Did they lenghthen it due to stab problems? Would be logical to fiddle with the tailplane in that case, but maybe a fuselage of other length would also make a good change in case of airflow?
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Wings were bigger and completely new. Engines were DB 601 on the Me 210 (same as on the Bf 109E/F). The Me 410 got the bigger DB 603 to offset the increased weight and drag of the bigger wings and longer fuselage. The Me 410 has about 800 hp more than the Me 210. I haven't read about the changes to other systems yet.
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(http://a990.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/110/l_74a1ba7030be0cc93bfbb77545e73edd.jpg)
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Ah, the 601. So, in short, the 210 was "too little" for stability once that was cured you need more power.
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HMMM i'd love to have the HE-111 so i can shoot it down in flames.
The last BofB scenario was a bit of a joke trying to kill ju88's with 303's a Heinkel however because its much slower would be easy meat.
I'm open to any new aircraft additions but Mossies need to be re-modelled and maybe another 2 variants added ASAP.
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He-111 was a rugged bird though.
For BoB it is a must along with an older Stuka Variant.
And it's a must for the eastern front, but there you need a lot of other aircraft for filling up as well, - we only have aircraft for the late eastern front, and not even enough.
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Originally posted by Angus
Ah, the 601. So, in short, the 210 was "too little" for stability once that was cured you need more power.
Yup.
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So, done with the book?
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Halfway done, although the rest of the book is pictures and technical things. Even Hollywood couldn't write a better soap opera than the production history of this bird. It even in no small way contributed to Udet's suicide. ;)
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Iron man, you have betrayed me....
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I don't get the reference. :huh
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Ah ... "Iron One, you are responsible for my death - Reichsmarschall, why have you deserted me?"
Udet's suicide note.
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:aok
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Sidenote. My wifes Grandpa, who was in the Kriegsmarine in WW2 gave me a book by Udet. "Mein Fliegerleben". It's about WW1 and his ventures around the world in the interwar years.
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And...it's a hell of a read. Only problem is that it's printed with some gothic letters so it's a bit slow to read. And in German, of course. Hacking through it though.
Print is from 1935.
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Very cool! :)
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I'll try to find some nice quotes for you later ;)
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Sometimes the Germans baffle me. Writing a book in 1935 and printing it in gothic text, - I'd have preferred RUNES. Gives me endless headaches reading, and I still read so slow, that I could just as well write it and/or translate into english to keep the thread.
Viking, - wanna co me on that one? I'm game, for the winter.
Pop me an email or email adress and I'll send you some scans.
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BTW, 1935 = no copyright, yes?
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I would think so. Bomber Command or USAAF may have taken care of the publisher as well. ;)
I'll do a short writeup on the ME 410 when I find the time (and willpower) to do it.
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Have been scanning. Want an email with jpg attachment? If so either drop me an email adress through PM, or email me at burns@isholf.is with ERNST UDET in the subject line ;)