Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DiabloTX on July 11, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
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Another story much like RPM's. This one involves my aunt Sue who's lived in west Texas all of her life and in Lubbock that last 15 years or so. This is an email I just got from her forwarded from my father. I am really at a loss for words right now as to what Don did, what he contributed to not only his local community but for this country. And to have this kind of thing happen to him.
I really am becoming very jaded at such a young age of 40.
"Dear family,
My former boss at South Plains Workforce Board was murdered Monday afternoon. A 25 year old black man was walking past his yard and Don noticed he looked winded and hot. He offered him a bottle of water, the guy came back later to rob him. Don was stabbed to death in his garage, as his wife looked on. The fellow then ran off and reported to his job at Rosa’s Café two blocks away where he was washing dishes. The police had identified him within two hours after some good police work and he was arraigned last night with $1 million bond. He’d been in Lubbock only a few days and had an outstanding warrant for burglary. Don’s personal effects were found on him at the time of arrest.
Don was a 72 year old retired Colonel in the Air Force. A high school dropout, he decided to go back to school and managed to get an appointment to West Point. He flew jets in Vietnam, and has had two jet pilot sons who recently retired from the Air Force . I don’t know the whole story yet but I am guessing Don didn’t gracefully hand over his money to the guy; they were leaving on a trip to SA to the retirement ceremonies for his younger son. The couple have five children and his wife Margaret Mary is one of my personal heroes. She and Don devoted their entire lives to their country and upon retirement devoted their lives to helping high school dropouts get their education and have good lives.
I am having a real hard time with this. I’ve cooked for them and carried food to them and they are all in shock at this tragedy.
This event really makes me want to leave Lubbock. I don’t feel safe here with all the things stolen from me here and the late night door bell ringings I’ve been experiencing. I just can’t believe this has happened.
Love, Sue/Mom"
Why does this kind of thing happen to the good people of this world?
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Sorry to hear Diablo:(
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I'm very sorry Diablo.:(
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A video for both Sheila Reed & Aunt Sue (http://youtube.com/watch?v=DWUkJIt1fZw)
I for am at a loss for words, twice in two weeks is too much. My sincerest and most heartfelt condolences go out to Aunt Sue's family and friends.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Another story much like RPM's. This one involves my aunt Sue who's lived in west Texas all of her life and in Lubbock that last 15 years or so. This is an email I just got from her forwarded from my father. I am really at a loss for words right now as to what Don did, what he contributed to not only his local community but for this country. And to have this kind of thing happen to him.
I really am becoming very jaded at such a young age of 40.
"Dear family,
My former boss at South Plains Workforce Board was murdered Monday afternoon. A 25 year old black man was walking past his yard and Don noticed he looked winded and hot. He offered him a bottle of water, the guy came back later to rob him. Don was stabbed to death in his garage, as his wife looked on. The fellow then ran off and reported to his job at Rosa’s Café two blocks away where he was washing dishes. The police had identified him within two hours after some good police work and he was arraigned last night with $1 million bond. He’d been in Lubbock only a few days and had an outstanding warrant for burglary. Don’s personal effects were found on him at the time of arrest.
Don was a 72 year old retired Colonel in the Air Force. A high school dropout, he decided to go back to school and managed to get an appointment to West Point. He flew jets in Vietnam, and has had two jet pilot sons who recently retired from the Air Force . I don’t know the whole story yet but I am guessing Don didn’t gracefully hand over his money to the guy; they were leaving on a trip to SA to the retirement ceremonies for his younger son. The couple have five children and his wife Margaret Mary is one of my personal heroes. She and Don devoted their entire lives to their country and upon retirement devoted their lives to helping high school dropouts get their education and have good lives.
I am having a real hard time with this. I’ve cooked for them and carried food to them and they are all in shock at this tragedy.
This event really makes me want to leave Lubbock. I don’t feel safe here with all the things stolen from me here and the late night door bell ringings I’ve been experiencing. I just can’t believe this has happened.
Love, Sue/Mom"
Why does this kind of thing happen to the good people of this world?
Why? I dont know Diablo.....Sorry to hear this.
Your 40 and staring to feel that way...I'm 45 and have felt that way for a while now.
The world is just not good. It's full of self serving , egotistical , self centered , its all about me and SCREW You people.
GOne are the days of being able to just sit on the porch and enjoy a Saturday evening with your spouse without hearing the local THUMP THUMP BOOM BOOM of the lowered expoloder. Or having to listen to a bunch of cussing and yelling from 13 year olds who actually kiss thier mom with a mouth that dirty.
I have become very much a person of trying my best to block out basically the entire world outside of family and CLOSE friends. I just really have no use for people anymore. Sad to say but I'm becoming more and more like that.
It's a sad , evil , and generally crappy world we live in.
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:(
This is truly a tragedy.
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So sorry to hear Diablo. My sincere condolences.
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Truly sorry for your loss Diablo. My condolences to you and your family.
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I'm so sorry to hear that Diablo :(
I know what you are thinking about, and I'm only 34 and having the same feelings. Last winter a 76 year old senior citizen pulled over in his car and tried to help a teenager who seemed drunk and lost (it was cold). The teenager beat the old man unconscious and left him to freeze to death. What the **** is wrong with people?
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this makes me sad... I'm 12, and I'm pretty sure puberty may be a part of this... but...
I think this world is just so screwed up...
13 year olds cussing and doing drugs on the streets.
15 year olds PREGNANT...
Murders in every city every night and day...
It makes you wonder... it makes you angry... This world could be SOOO much better! I don't know what to blame for all this, so I'm just gonna' get pissed off at the next person who swears at me.
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Diablo, my thoughts and prayers.
This list gets longer all the time.
<>
68ROX
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Thanks guys. I just don't know anymore. I used to have such an overwhelming positive attitude about the world but over the last 10 years or so its really taken a beating. I feel so sorry for my aunt as she's one of those always positive people and have never heard her down like that.
And to let an old man freeze to death? I was raised to always, ALWAYS help and respect your elders no matter how much they *****ed about it. The one thing I was most scared of when I was young was disappointing my parents. I think this is what's missing today, a total lack of respect for the other person.
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Oogly....
Do your best to make the world better.
I'm 46 and have tried all my life.
Do YOUR best to see the next generation has a chance, bro....
<>
God looks down...he expects US to make the next move.
68ROX
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Oogly50,
A bit of advice from a middle aged man: Stay as far away from bad people as possible; it really decreases the odds of getting tangled in bad stuff.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Oogly50,
A bit of advice from a middle aged man: Stay as far away from bad people as possible; it really decreases the odds of getting tangled in bad stuff.
luckily I live in a pretty, nice, quiet, peaceful town. But for alot of people these days, too stay away from bad people would be as hard as trying to not breathe for more than a minute...
But, on an optomistic note... it can get... better??? :aok
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Diablo,
It's a sad situation to be sure. Unfortunately there are all kinds of folks in the world. The good ones and the bad ones. They have always been there but unless it's close to you oe someone you know they slip past your notice. It's always something happening to someone else somewhere else. Don't just focus in on the bad folks and ignore the good ones out there. You won't see much about the good ones as they don't make the news much.
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eskimo.. that is sound advice but... cynical and can lead to an unhappy life.
If you end up trusting no stranger you are doomed.
I say trust but verify. I am much more at ease and willing to help if I know I have a 340 PD .357 in my front pocket.
The world is full of bad people.. whole groups have gone feral. In feral people country you need to be armed.
Between the feral ones and the zombies... not having a second amendment is tantamount to suicide by pollyanna.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
eskimo.. that is sound advice but... cynical and can lead to an unhappy life.
If you end up trusting no stranger you are doomed.
I say trust but verify. I am much more at ease and willing to help if I know I have a 340 PD .357 in my front pocket.
The world is full of bad people.. whole groups have gone feral. In feral people country you need to be armed.
Between the feral ones and the zombies... not having a second amendment is tantamount to suicide by pollyanna.
lazs
Not really. It all comes down to choices: do you want to live in Mayberry or the hood? Neither one guarantees that you will or won’t be robbed or killed. The odds are, however, that you will like your neighbors in Mayberry and the most exciting thing that will happen in a given week is that Aunt Bea will bring you a pie. In the hood, the odds are that someone’s going to die, and it won’t be from old age. Choose Mayberry over the hood. Mayberrys still exist, there aye many to choose from.
If you’re a teenager, choose joining a square dancing group over going to a slam dancing/rave. Join the chess club instead of just hanging out with some stoners and looking for trouble.
If you make these kinds of choices, you won’t need to be cynical at all. Bad people will be the folks that you read about in the paper.
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My deepest sympathy Diablo.
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This is very sad, and it occurs all too often. I meself can see the way the world is changing. Younguns cussing, have no respect, and the parents no longer do anything aboot it. When I was young, you said that, you became a red striped zebra from the hickory switch. Did a person good. That's part of what's wrong today. I am very sorry for this, words cannot express me condolences. To kill an ederly citizen should warrant hanging, but, alas, it is not the world it was 60 years ago.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Not really. It all comes down to choices: do you want to live in Mayberry or the hood? Neither one guarantees that you will or won?t be robbed or killed. The odds are, however, that you will like your neighbors in Mayberry and the most exciting thing that will happen in a given week is that Aunt Bea will bring you a pie. In the hood, the odds are that someone?s going to die, and it won?t be from old age. Choose Mayberry over the hood. Mayberrys still exist, there aye many to choose from.
If you?re a teenager, choose joining a square dancing group over going to a slam dancing/rave. Join the chess club instead of just hanging out with some stoners and looking for trouble.
If you make these kinds of choices, you won?t need to be cynical at all. Bad people will be the folks that you read about in the paper.
Very good advice. I am glad to live in a nearly Mayberry place. Except for the crooked cops, we are good here.
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Hi Diablo,
Before I even begin to try to answer your very good question, please let you aunt know she has my sincere sympathy and the family of her murdered boss will be in my prayers. I’ve been hearing many similar stories of late, of people whose lives were suddenly and tragically ended when neither they nor anyone around them would have expected. As I was driving back yesterday from a visit with a desperately ill person, I reflected on the truth of the words of another Pastor that particularly startled me when I first heard them: think of the sickest person you know, and then think on this - you have no guarantee that you will live longer than that person. It just may be that right now you are living your last moments here on earth. Remembering that caused me to think of a portion of Psalm 39 and to pray after the Psalmist: "LORD, make me to know my end, And what is the measure of my days, That I may know how frail I am. Indeed, You have made my days as handbreadths, And my age is as nothing before You; Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor. Selah Surely every man walks about like a shadow; Surely they busy themselves in vain; He heaps up riches, And does not know who will gather them. "And now, Lord, what do I wait for? My hope is in You. (Psalm 39:4-7)
Anyway, I’ll try to give an answer to your question in a little while (God willing of course ;) ) but I have a bulletin I absolutely have to get finished in the next hour…
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Oogly50,
A bit of advice from a middle aged man: Stay as far away from bad people as possible; it really decreases the odds of getting tangled in bad stuff.
i got tangled in that once thought they want ted me to kill some o ebut i didn't the next day i was jumped srry about aunt :(
no pffense to oogly but **** the gut who did it
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I'm sorry for the loss. Its sad to say you really can't tell who's bad and good these days. The guys in the suits are just as bad as the thugs on the corner with full body prison tattoos. The 12 year old kids that can barely ride a bike are as twisted as the 48yr old in the psych ward. Its a harsh reality, but it reminds you to keep your family and friends close and dont worry about the petty arguments. I would say though, I don't think the world is that much worse than it ever has been just different ways of doing crimes and those crimes can be easily heard about through the media and instant access.
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I can pick the single word in the story that easily explains why it happened, but I'm not drunk enough (yet) to get banned for racism.
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eskimo.. your advice is still good... I have no problem with it except that the reality of the situation is that bad people will come to you or... be put their by your socialist government.
We have section 8 housing everywhere here where the worst of the worst (along with some ok folks) are put into nice neighborhoods at no expense to them.
I helped one move a piano out of his truck the other day.. he was a negro with stupid hair and stupid clothes but.. he spoke real American english so I thought I might give him a hand.
smiles all around.. everyone behaved... no one got shot.
I simply feel that I am need to have as much control as possible when it comes to happy endings with encounters with my fellow man.
An armed society is a polite one.
lazs
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Hi again Diablo,
As to your question, “Why does this kind of thing keep happening? and why, as others have noted, does our society seem to be becoming more and more coarse, uncivil, uncaring, and violent? Why is the family falling apart and why are our children turning out so poorly? (All of these factors are of course related, each factor affects the others.) Well, I’m neither a prophet, nor the son of a prophet, but I know that my answer to that particular question is not going to be very popular. But hey, I’d rather attempt to tell the truth and be hated (as the prophets of the Old Testament were when they exposed the corruption of their society), than peddle comforting lies so that men would like me. The answer is not race, nor economics, nor a lack of firearms, the answer is that our society has sown the wind for many years and is now reaping the whirlwind, we’ve been traveling steadily down a broad path that leads to destruction, and we are gradually drawing near and nearer to our destination.
We began that journey when we self-consciously chose to cast off all biblical moorings and decided that we could build a society based only upon what was right in our own eyes. We conned ourselves into believing that all men were basically good at heart and that with the benefits of a little education we could create a utopian paradise here on earth. That process started in the 19th century when we began to teach that man could dispense with revealed religion and be guided by reason alone even in the realm of ethics. As time went on though, and the “every man his own god” spirit prevailed, the idea of any unified body of absolute ethics began to degenerate until in the 1960s the last fragments of the Christian ethics inherited from their parents were dispensed with and the idea of positive law and situational ethics became the norm in our society. Since that time we have seen a precipitous rise in every indicator of social decay, (crime, murder, rape, divorce, teen pregnancy, abortion, addiction, etc.) and every year our children look and act more like pirates and prostitutes and yet we continue to tell ourselves that what we need most is more of the same poison that has been killing us for the last 100 years, and that the real enemies of our brave new world are the people who say that only a return to the Word of God will stop the slide. Like Israel before the Babylonian conquest, we’d still rather embrace the idols that are destroying us, than humble ourselves and turn back to the living God. In our version of the “Emperor’s New Clothes” the little boy who points out that the Emperor is naked gets a sound beating and the obscene parade continues.
The words of Jer. 6:16-19 seem to be just as applicable to us in our time as they were to ancient Israel:
“Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.' Also, I set watchmen over you, saying, 'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!' But they said, 'We will not listen.' Therefore hear, you nations, And know, O congregation, what is among them. Hear, O earth! Behold, I will certainly bring calamity on this people -- The fruit of their thoughts, Because they have not heeded My words, Nor My law, but rejected it.”
To paraphrase the Apostle Paul, claiming to be wise we have become fools, and are now doing things that even the deists of 200 years ago would have called wicked and socially suicidal. Is there hope for us individually and nationally? I know there is, that is one of the reasons I preach the Gospel of Grace, but without repentance, faith in Christ, and a humbling of ourselves it will never happen – and I speak as one who was walking in that broad path, and who had to have his own foolish pride broken. My hope is that there will be revival and reformation in this land, before we go the way of every decadent and proud empire that has gone before us.
Anyway, there is more I could say, but space and time constraints prevent it.
- SEAGOON
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I believe the answer to why things have got worse is primarily because of "political correctness",think about it. Hey, I could be way off. Just my two cents and I'm very sorry about what happened.
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I beleive the answer to why things are getting worse is that we are near the end of days.
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Yes! MORE religious fanatics is what we need!
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Originally posted by McFarland
I beleive the answer to why things are getting worse is that we are near the end of days.
The paradox is that as the world continues to brim over with a population of increasingly fanatical, increasingly conspiquous, decreasingly rational religious whack-jobs, this 'end of Days' prophecy tends more and more to fulfill itself.
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Hi Viking,
Originally posted by Viking
Yes! MORE religious fanatics is what we need!
Setting aside the fact that you are proving my point above about the Emperor's new clothes and defending the need for more of the same poison, do you really think that say the American Christians from the 18th and 19th centuries who believed that society should be founded on the basis of biblical ethics were "religious fanatics?" Your statement not only makes all religions equally unbalanced, it denies that the possibility that one of them might actually be true. I'm not surprised by the approach, but if I consistently adopted it in regards to politics, philosophy, or economics on the board, I'd be laughed to scorn (more than the usual amount I mean).
But I want to be fair, please go ahead and tell me in detail how our prevailing amoral, atheistic, and irreligious model for society is superior to one based on Christian ethics including how it will someday start reducing the kind of actions Diablo wrote about rather than fostering them and how long we need to wait for that great reversal to occur.
- SEAGOON
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Our society is too soft today........we need to get back to the days of old......the days when you pay with you life for doing these types of things...not sit in jail for life......eye for an eye........these gangs on our streets they need to be eliminated!!!.......we pitty patty around and let them get away with murder and do nothing.........The crooks and criminals in this country know they will just get a slap on the hand for alot of these crimes....I say they lose that hand not get it slaped...that would make other criminals think twice before they do the "Dirty Deed"
To bad it will never happen....too many bleeding heart liberals in this country. My thoughts and prayers are with you Diablo
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children.. especialy male children.. growing up without a father is the root cause.
Anything society does to make it so less kids grow up without fathers is a good thing and slows this kind of feral behavior..
Anything society does to hinder or encourage children raised without fathers is a bad thing and will further such feral behavior.
It is not complex.
lazs
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Laz,
You didn't go far enough there. It's not the presence of a father it's the presence of a GOOD father figure. By supplying a good role model you'll get results. Merely having a male adult in the house does not mean they will be a good parent.
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But I want to be fair, please go ahead and tell me in detail how our prevailing amoral, atheistic, and irreligious model for society is superior to one based on Christian ethics including how it will someday start reducing the kind of actions Diablo wrote about rather than fostering them and how long we need to wait for that great reversal to occur.
And yet "Christian ethics" (whatever the hell that means) have been largely en vogue now more than ever in this country, with more press, more money, more organization and more political clout than ever before. How can anyone say the US isn't arguably more Christian now than ever before? You can't swing a dead cat anywhere in this country without being beaten over the head with Christian evangelization to some extent or another.
If a theocracy is the solution to statistically rare occurances like the aforementioned tragedy, I respectfully submit that the cure is worse than the disease.
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Originally posted by 0thehero
If a theocracy is the solution to statistically rare occurances like the aforementioned tragedy, I respectfully submit that the cure is worse than the disease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
It's not that rare, that's the problem.
There's one graph in particular on that page that stands out. Right side about 1/3 way down.
Crazy world in which we live.
Sorry for what your aunt has to deal with Diablo .
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Hi Laz,
Originally posted by lazs2
children.. especialy male children.. growing up without a father is the root cause.
Anything society does to make it so less kids grow up without fathers is a good thing and slows this kind of feral behavior..
Anything society does to hinder or encourage children raised without fathers is a bad thing and will further such feral behavior.
It is not complex.
lazs
A number of studies have shown that what you are saying is indeed the case, and that having no father in the home (good, bad, or indifferent) is the single most significant factor in criminal behavior (more so than race or economic status). For instance in 2002 the Journal of Criminal Justice completed a study that reported:
"Even after controlling for gender, minority status, and mother’s education] “[A]dolescents living in a single-parent family were at significantly higher risk for status, property and person [violent] delinquency than adolescents who lived with two parents”
Another study done by the journal Criminology reported: "[A]n increase of 13% in female-headed households would produce a doubling of the offense rate, the strongest relationship in the model.”
While another report reported: "Out-of-wedlock births had a strong relationship to violent crime rates. Nationally, between 1973 and 1995, nearly 90% of the change in violent crime rates can be accounted for by the change in percentages of out-of-wedlock births. Comparing across states between 1987 and 1993, “Levels of out-of-wedlock births were consistently and strongly related to violent crime. Rates of male unemployment were not consistently related to rates of violent crime.” [Mackey, Wade C., & Coney, Nancy S.. Journal of Men’s Studies, 8: 349-37]
If you compare that to the percentage of prison inmates raised by single mothers (70%), the stats in the reports are clearly born out.
Ok, the connection exists, but it still begs the question why did we see such a huge jump in out of wedlock births between the 1960s and the 1990s, as well as a huge rise in the number of abortions since 1973 (for instance 11.5 million African-American pregnancies have ended in abortion since 1973)? The answer is the massive change in the ethical standards of our culture. At one time premarital sex, cohabitation without marriage, abortion and having children out of wedlock were all considered wrong. By and large they no longer are, and as a society we have even decided to pay the cost of raising these fatherless children by reallocating our tax dollars which in turn further encourages the behavior (you get what you pay for).
So while we know that single mothers are producing the next generation of feral males who will prey on society, we are not allowed to state that premarital sex or having children out of wedlock is bad or sinful. So as said before, the parade goes on with no end in sight.
Good thing we are so much smarter than our ancestors or we might start to wonder if we really have created a better society.
- SEAGOON
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Hi 0TH,
This is probably more of a reply than you were looking for, and for that I apologize, but your post does actually illustrate some popular misconceptions that it might be valuable to deal with in detail. I’m way behind schedule today, so I hope you won’t mind if I use a few more quotes than I normally would.
Originally posted by 0thehero And yet "Christian ethics" (whatever the hell that means) have been largely en vogue now more than ever in this country
Actually, that isn’t really the case at all. Let me try to explain why. First let’s start by defining what is meant by Christian ethics, here I’m going to be smashing a lot of distinctions flat and not discussing the various subdivisions in ethics (descriptive, normative, etc.) For the sake of argument I’ll use J. Douma’s definition from his Responsible Conduct: Principles of Christian Ethics (http://www.amazon.com/Responsible-Conduct-Principles-Christian-Ethics/dp/0875525725/ref=sr_1_1/002-8710424-4484844?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184350842&sr=8-1):
“Christian ethics is reflection upon moral conduct in light of the perspective offered us in Holy Scripture”.
Because the source of these ethics is the teaching of scripture (and largely the moral law – Ten Commandments and the further light shed on these commandments in the New Testament), these ethics are largely fixed and unchanging, and while interpretation may be necessary to fit them to particular circumstances, murder and theft will always be wrong and never right because they are contrary to God’s commandments. Thus Christian ethics are distinguished from Utilitarian ethics in that the ends never justify the means and also profoundly different from what are commonly called morals:
Historically there has been a profound difference between the concepts of morals and ethics. The word morals, coming from the Latin mores, means “manners” or “customs” and describes the behavioral patterns of people. The morality of a given group is simply what they do. If most of the people in the group are engaged in bank robbing, then that society has a morality of bank robbing.
The word ethics, on the other hand, comes from the Greek ethos meaning “foundation” or “root” and has to do with the philosophical basis for morality. It encompasses the reasons why certain behavioral patterns are better than others.
Ethics is concerned with what ought to be done, while morality is concerned with what is in fact going on. To put it another way, ethics is “ought-ness” and morals is “is-ness.”
The Christian perspective holds that people are required to do what they ought to do, and what they ought to do is determined by God. If, however, we deny the possibility and foundation of ethics and are left only with morals, then it is every person for himself or herself. Fyodor Dostoyevsky said it this way: “If there is no God, everything is permitted.” (RC Sproul, Before the Face of God)
Now amongst Americans only around 35% of Americans believe in absolute standards of morality according to polling done by the Barna group, and even fewer have what could be called a biblical world and life view. As an Evangelical pastor, I can tell you that the norm in the church these days is for Christians to essentially mimic the views of the pop-culture with only a thin Christian veneer placed over them. Consistent Christian theology and ethics has become very rare and the faith and practice of evangelicals is in many senses at its lowest ebb since the reformation. In most ways, Christians follow the culture in its desire for “stronger morals” but are often practically antinomian in their own practice.
Additionally while it may be your perception that there is more Christianity in the USA than ever before, that perception actually comes from two misleading components. Firstly, evangelical Christians fought and lost the “culture war” between fundamentalism and modernism in both the public square and the mainline denominations in the early 20th century. Following those defeats they largely retreated from the political sphere opting for a policy of separation. However in the 1980s Evangelical Christians, alarmed at what they perceived to be the social decay of the country began to re-enter US politics starting up organizations like the Christian Coalition. Naturally this re-entry was not pleasing to the left-wing (despite the fact that the mainline churches had been supporting liberal politics for decades) and generated considerable animosity, even amongst fiscal conservatives and a raging battle has ensued. The perception that they weren’t there before and suddenly “appeared” is false and misleading; they existed, but hadn’t had much of political voice since the 1920s which was a situation that the political left no doubt wishes had continued. Secondly, the divide between secular Americans and evangelical Christians has never been wider than at present, many Americans particularly in the cities and the suburban or urban North East have little or no contact with evangelicals, they are people you see on TV but not in your actual circle of friends and acquaintances. I, for instance, managed to grow up (first in the UK and then in NJ) and complete high school without ever meeting a genuine evangelical or hearing the gospel. Evangelicals also tend to form their own ghettos and sub-cultures which only increases the divide. Therefore when secular humanists see evangelicals involved in politics, there is a perception that a non-mainstream alien invasion is occurring because you are normal, and these people clearly aren’t. The idea that what they believe was actually once the norm in America never occurs to many people - we are simply unaware of how much the West has changed in the last 100 years.
The drift in modern evangelicalism however, is increasingly towards compromise across the board. Americans as a rule want to fit in, and Evangelical Americans want to be liked and accepted by the world as well. In order to do so however, massive compromises are necessary, and if you are familiar with groups like Barna or magazines like Christianity Today, or if you have visited one of the Mega-Churches that could easily be mistaken for a shopping mall you’ll find those compromises are proceeding at warp speed. Rather than being a distinctly different sphere from the culture, the church is actually becoming more and more worldly every day. Far from being able to “win the culture war” many of us in the church spend much of our time trying to stop the church from sliding into the culture.
- SEAGOON
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thanks seagoon but anyone with the brains god gave gophers knows that boys need dads or a dad figure or they will go feral.
boys/men are less civiliized than women and also will not listen to a woman (except democrats or ones with a lot of estrogen).
They need a man to tell em how to act.. they need a man who was raised by a man tho... not a man/boy who has not had a dad in the family for generations.
it is simple stuff really.
lazs
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Hi Laz2,
Originally posted by lazs2
thanks seagoon but anyone with the brains god gave gophers knows that boys need dads or a dad figure or they will go feral.
boys/men are less civiliized than women and also will not listen to a woman (except democrats or ones with a lot of estrogen).
They need a man to tell em how to act.. they need a man who was raised by a man tho... not a man/boy who has not had a dad in the family for generations.
it is simple stuff really.
lazs
Apparently not considering that 1/3rd of all children born in the United States will grow up without fathers, and that this trend is being actively encouraged by the chattering classes and the media. Apparently its wonderful when Timmy either has no daddy or two mommies. There are even organizations designed to encourage single motherhood -
For instance aside from groups like NOW you have:
http://www.choosingsinglemotherhood.com/ *
I don't think these people are stupid and certainly not uneducated. I think the problem has more to do with a vacuum of ethics, humility, and wisdom.
Anyway Laz, if there are no absolutes and every man and woman is the arbiter of their own morality, how do you plan on getting single males to stop impregnating single women and getting single women to stop giving birth to the next generation of criminals?
- SEAGOON
* Edit: My favorite quote from the entire site "Ms. Morrissette lived in New York City for 18 years. She returned to her home state of Minnesota when her daughter was 3. She was five months pregnant with her son when she met the man who would become her husband. In the best interest of their kids, they continue to live in separate houses as single parents." :rolleyes:
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The root cause of crime isn't the lack of father figures, but more basic then that. The culture among African Americans is astounding in their acceptance of crime, and their willingness to commit it. As well as the 'Baby's Daddy' theme you see time and time again on Maury.
Just take a look at the glorification of Rap artists, and what they 'Sing' about.
Then take a look at how some of the black's attempts to raise self awareness to their own problems have raised such animosity. Bill Cosby trying to address it has been booed many times.
Until you change or fix this culture by any means, the problem will not go away.
And just for reference, I had a great uncle get killed by a black man. He was the owner operator of a McDonalds when it got held up. My great uncle tried to calm everyone down, and make sure the robber was going to get his money and that he should leave everyone alone. The robber blew his head off with a shotgun. He then walked because the arresting officer didn't read him his miranda rights correctly.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Viking,
Setting aside the fact that you are proving my point above about the Emperor's new clothes and defending the need for blah of the same blah, do you blah thiblah nk thblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
But I want to be fair, please go ahead and tell me in detail how our prevailing amoral, atheistic, and irreligious model for society is superior to one based on Christian ethics including how it will someday start reducing the kind of actions Diablo wrote about rather than fostering them and how long we need to wait for that great reversal to occur.
- SEAGOON
Hi Seagoon.
First of all I'd like to note that my previous post was not directed at you, but at the post immediately above mine. Secondly, I'm not an atheist, but a humanist (human ethicist) and thus I believe in Christian values... or rather human values since I don't believe the Bible or the ten commandments are ordained by any deity, but simply authored by men of power. However, the promise of heaven for good and hell for evil are powerful motivators that a non-religious society lacks, and thus we must replace them with something. Harsher punishments for violations of our laws of conduct is one way. We also need to start beating our kids again.
Although Robert Heinlein presented extreme examples in his novels he was right about many things including this one: "Juvenile delinquent" is an oxymoron. A child does not know the difference between right and wrong and must be taught such things. So to refer to a child as “delinquent” puts too much accountability on a creature who has none to begin with. When a juvenile commits a crime it is not he who has failed society, but the society has failed him. We need to bring our kids up right.
"Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy." - Robert Heinlein
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Yeah, if that McDonalds type thing happened around here, he would have been shot, if not by the police, or by a person in the McDonalds, by someone else on sight. It's called 'vigilantism", and it works great. Things like this keep violent crimes down, because people know that if they do something wrong, they will die. So they don't do them. It saves many lives.
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Originally posted by Viking
Originally posted by Seagoon: Setting aside the fact that you are proving my point above about the Emperor's new clothes and defending the need for blah of the same blah, do you blah thiblah nk thblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Yup, that sounds like him.
- SEAGOON'S DOG
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Lol ;)
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Rather than being a distinctly different sphere from the culture, the church is actually becoming more and more worldly every day. Far from being able to “win the culture war” many of us in the church spend much of our time trying to stop the church from sliding into the culture.
If your verbose point is that the Church is slowly being co-opted into broader secular society, I would be thrilled to hear it; dilution is the solution to pollution. But it's not happening. We can't even elect public officials in most of the country unless they publicly engage in self-aggrandizing testimonials about their relationship with God, for fear of being labeled something other than Christian. Blah. How does that make us more civilized or more advanced than some tribal society living in the wilderness from 4000 years ago?
Not trying to jack the thread into a theological debate, but to assert that the country would right itself with regard to crime (or anything else, for that matter) if it merely held to a Christian line of ethics is really ignoring not only our own history, but ignoring clear demographic and socioeconomic trends that exist outside the limited vacuum of Christian dogma.
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Ignoring this country's history? Even when this country was founded by Christians? It be true that Christians are no longer as righteous as they used to be, and that is the problem. Christianity is changing, which is bad. If only this country were more old-time Christian than it is.
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Originally posted by McFarland
This is very sad, and it occurs all too often. I meself can see the way the world is changing. Younguns cussing, have no respect, and the parents no longer do anything aboot it. When I was young, you said that, you became a red striped zebra from the hickory switch. Did a person good. That's part of what's wrong today. I am very sorry for this, words cannot express me condolences. To kill an ederly citizen should warrant hanging, but, alas, it is not the world it was 60 years ago.
On this I agree with you 100% except the spelling, good Lord, man.;)
Diablo, my prayers are with you and yours. :(
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My most deepest sympathy Diablo.
Mac
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Originally posted by McFarland
If only this country were more old-time Christian than it is.
Wouldn't that make it Jewish?
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seagoon... I do indeed feel that there is such a thing as absolute morality and right and wrong... I am a very pragmatic and black and white kind of guy.
fathering a child without raising that child is immoral.
There should be severe penalties. It should be difficult for either parent to leave the other so long as children are involved.
A person who fathers a child out of wedlock should be made to pay for the upbringing and allowed to help raise the child... If he will not then he needs to be jailed and forced to do hard labor with the pay going to the child.
mav... yes.. some are not good fathers but.. if everyone had a father it would be a huge step in the right direction.
lazs
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The answer to the question posed by the title of the thread is simple.
Because we as a nation and a society continue to tolerate that sort of behavior and the behavior and habits that lead up to it. It's called moral decay. Some, many of whom consider themselves intelligent, not only tolerate moral decay, they embrace it. And many of those who do not excuse it.
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Very sorry to hear that Diablo.
lasersailor... you have confirmed the fact that you are a complete ******.
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Anyway Laz, if there are no absolutes and every man and woman is the arbiter of their own morality, how do you plan on getting single males to stop impregnating single women and getting single women to stop giving birth to the next generation of criminals?
Forgive me for replying late to this one.
From a secular point of view the answer is birth control. From a Christian point of view, celibacy until marriage.
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Originally posted by McFarland
Yeah, if that McDonalds type thing happened around here, he would have been shot, if not by the police, or by a person in the McDonalds, by someone else on sight. It's called 'vigilantism", and it works great. Things like this keep violent crimes down, because people know that if they do something wrong, they will die. So they don't do them. It saves many lives.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:aok
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The answer to the question posed by the title of the thread is simple.
Because we as a nation and a society continue to tolerate that sort of behavior and the behavior and habits that lead up to it. It's called moral decay. Some, many of whom consider themselves intelligent, not only tolerate moral decay, they embrace it. And many of those who do not excuse it.
You are basicly repeating what I said in my post and I could not agree more. The moral decay that you speak of is commonly called "political correctness" A great example is a situation where one can no longer state the obvious without fear of offending, such as: What is an African American? can anyone explain what that means? Why not just say a black American if you want to point out ethnicity? See my point? The only way you can be an "African American" is if you hold duel citizenship as far as I know. My grandmother is from England so do I need to tout that I am an English-American or say that I deserve reperations from his royal majesty?. Have you ever met someone who claimed to be an Iranian-Iraqi? or a Mexican-German? I don't care if you are black, brown, yellow, red, green or blue. If you are a citizen of the United States then you are an American PERIOD. Unfortunately people fall for this and accept it as the norm. You will see this just about everywhere you go in your daily life and not even question it's relevence or even whether it makes a lick of sense because you have been bred to feel a certain way. Final point is that political correctness is counter productive and will cost us all dearly in the long run when it comes to things such as defending ourselves and our right to life.
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If you use the term "african american" for anyone who does not have dual citizenship then you are part of the problem.
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Very sorry to hear that Diablo.
lasersailor... you have confirmed the fact that you are a complete ******.
Yes, I am, but your reaction proves me right still. Instead of confronting the problem with culture, you'd rather let it happen and not risk getting called a racist.