Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FrodeMk3 on July 12, 2007, 11:24:27 PM
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Wow, something's really starting to snowball here:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070713/ap_on_re_us/policing_gun_stores;_ylt=AtgFOdKkURwOQBYtOdE_R4hH2ocA
I noticed that it WASN'T front-page news, either.
(Edit): WTF? I just saw this on yahoo news, it was on the bottom, in with a bunch of other articles. It concerned gun stores allegedly selling firearms to known criminals. However, it very quickly expired (Bad press? LOL.)
Ok, try this one:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070713/ap_on_re_us/policing_gun_stores;_ylt=AvmWRvYpkgTqt7RGGLxy89Ss0NUE
Anyway, it was on Yahoo! news, under Gun shops under closer scrutiny.
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Alright, how 'bout this:
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By DAVID B. CARUSO, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 44 minutes ago
NEW YORK - When criminals need guns, they have plenty of options in a country with nearly 100,000 licensed gun stores. But drug dealers and other crooks don't shop just anywhere. They have their favorites.
ADVERTISEMENT
In Compton, Calif., gangsters preferred Boulevard Sales & Service, a shop police said was so felon-friendly, some salesmen offered tips on how to buy a gun despite a criminal record.
In Philadelphia, shady gun buyers sent girlfriends to a suburban pawn shop, Lou's Loan, where the staff wouldn't raise a fuss if a young woman came by a few times a month to purchase cheap handguns.
And on the outskirts of New Orleans, killers-to-be armed themselves at Elliot's Gun Shop. Over the past five years, the store was the source of 2,300 weapons later linked to crime, including an astonishing 125 homicides, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
In fact, government figures show that an extremely small number of gun shops account for a spectacularly large number of weapons used in crimes.
Stores like these have long occupied protected territory. The products they sell are legal. Congress has sheltered them from lawsuits and limited the power of regulators. It can take years for the ATF to revoke a dealer's license.
But there are signs that scrutiny is on the rise.
Over the past three years, ATF agents have cracked down on some of the stores most notorious for selling large numbers of weapons used in street crime. In 2005 and 2006, some 220 firearms dealers had their licenses revoked — 20 more than in the previous eight years combined.
More than two dozen stores have also been hit with lawsuits, most notably by the city of New York, where Mayor Michael Bloomberg has made gun control a talking point of what could be a nascent presidential campaign.
The pickup in enforcement action has delighted gun-control groups — and dismayed Second Amendment advocates, who say law-abiding merchants are being driven out of business.
"I've never run into a situation where a dealer has intentionally violated the law," said Richard Gardiner, a Virginia lawyer who represents gun dealers. If guns are being bought at these stores by criminals, "it is because they are being exploited by people who know how to beat the system."
Gun-control advocates, though encouraged by an increase in scrutiny, believe the government is still doing too little. The number of shops disciplined by the government, they say, represents just a fraction of those that aren't playing by the rules.
"There are bad apples out there," said Brady Center attorney Daniel Vice. "ATF knows who they are. The manufacturers know who they are. But most of them are still operating."
Much of what the government knows about where criminals get guns comes from the vast database the ATF uses to trace weapons found at crime scenes or confiscated by police.
The data shows that a majority of guns used by criminals are not stolen or smuggled in to the country. They are bought at federally licensed gun stores, often by "straw purchasers," people acting on behalf of others who cannot buy a weapon legally because of a criminal record.
The database also shows that most gun shops rarely, if ever, sell a weapon later linked to a crime. But a few shops account for a remarkably large number of these guns.
In a 2000 report, ATF officials said that nearly 40 percent of all weapons traced by the bureau originated from just 332 gun dealers nationwide. That means that less than 1 percent of the nation's gun stores supply nearly half of all weapons traced in connection with a crime.
"When you see something like that, you either have somebody who is corrupt or have someone with bad business practices," said Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent and former chief of the bureau's crime gun analysis branch.
Gun shop owners dispute that accusation. Some stores, they say, simply sell a lot of weapons. Others are victims of location: They operate in neighborhoods convenient to the highways smugglers use to run weapons from gun-friendly states to Northern cities.
So far, Congress has sided with the stores. In 2003 it blocked the ATF from revealing information from its tracing database, including the names of the shops that sold the most weapons linked to crime.
On Thursday, a key House committee refused to remove the restrictions, despite a plea from Bloomberg earlier in the week after two police officers were shot with illegally owned guns in Brooklyn.
Speaking in Washington on Tuesday, the mayor said he believed lawmakers would change their minds about protecting the stores if they could meet the parents of the most gravely wounded officer, who clung to life Thursday.
The theory that some stores attract a criminal clientele because of shady business practices is the centerpiece of New York City's legal assault.
Last year the city sued 27 gun stores in five states, claiming they sold firearms recklessly. The city's targets included shops like Rooks Sales & Service, in Bishopville, S.C.
As gun stores go, Rooks is no superstore. The independently owned store serves a rural county with fewer than 21,000 people. The closest city, Columbia, is an hour away. New York City lies 660 miles to the north.
Yet between 1994 and 2002, at least 109 firearms sold by the store were later recovered by New York police.
One pistol was wielded by robbers at a housing project in Queens. A Tec-9 submachine gun turned up in the hands of a Staten Island teenager. A Manhattan man used a 9mm from the store to kill his wife. A Bronx man used a .25 caliber to wound his estranged girlfriend, then murder her 79-year-old grandmother.
There is no evidence that the people who committed those crimes ever visited Rooks themselves. Most are believed to have bought their weapons on the black market. But the city accused the store and others like it of fueling that underground trade by selling guns to people easily identifiable as straw purchasers.
To build its case, New York sent private investigators into dozens of stores, where they posed as the classic straw-purchase team: a man who picks out and pays for the weapon, and a woman who steps in to undergo the required criminal record check.
To their credit, many shopkeepers turned the couple away. Bloomberg called those who made the sale "rogue dealers."
That kind of talk infuriates Earl Driggers, one of the merchants sued by the city. Between 1994 and 2001, his family-owned chain of pawn shops in Georgia sold 48 guns later linked to crimes in New York, including a Bronx killing.
Driggers said no one wants guns to fall into the wrong hands. But he said he does everything a responsible gun salesman should when suspicious characters visit his shop: Sometimes he throws them out. Sometimes he calls ATF.
One time, he called in a tip that led to a good-sized bust. A customer who had bought dozens of inexpensive handguns was stopped by police, and wound up implicating accomplices in a ring that had smuggled as many as 200 guns to New York.
"I suspect that there are some people that New York City legitimately needed to go after, but I'm not one of them," Driggers said.
Driggers said he fired the clerk who fell for New York City's sting. He also joined a dozen other owners, including Rooks Sales, who settled the lawsuit.
Other store owners have been more defiant. Some of the shops and their supporters have countersued, claiming they were libeled by New York officials who had no authority to enforce gun laws in other states. Virginia lawmakers, outraged at the incursion, passed legislation banning similar stings.
ATF officials weren't pleased either, and asked New York to stop sending private investigators into gun stores.
But the ATF has been busy too, especially since 2003, when oversight of its firearms operation was transferred from the Treasury Department to the more powerful Justice Department.
In the past three years, 105 licensed gun dealers have been indicted on criminal charges because of ATF investigations — twice as many as between 2000 and 2002.
Agents raided Boulevard Sales & Service in March after conducting a sting of their own. Two clerks were charged with selling ammunition to felons who were secretly working with Los Angeles authorities.
Lou's Loan in Upper Darby, Pa., had its license revoked last summer. And in mid-May, ATF agents shuttered Elliot's Gun Shop. Its owner and two employees were charged with identity theft and illegal sales.
Last year, government statistics indicated that Elliot's was the No. 3 supplier of crime guns in the country. The No. 2 store, Trader Sports of San Leandro, Calif., lost its license last year.
Taking those disciplinary actions has not been easy.
By congressional mandate, agents are now generally allowed to inspect licensed dealers only once a year. To revoke a dealer's license, investigators must prove in court that a dealer willfully violated gun laws — a process that can take years.
Still, the extra scrutiny appears to be having an effect.
At Hot Shots Jewelry & Pawn in Marietta, Ga., customers are now questioned bluntly to make sure they aren't buying a weapon on behalf of someone else, said owner Melissa Paulette. Her store was among those that settled with New York.
"We don't want any more trouble," she said. "This has been the worst nightmare."
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Sorry about the broken linky's, everyone.
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Why do you hate America?
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Yea,
I'll pay attention to this junk when they put the girl friend in jail for buying the gun for another person. You cannot buy a firearm for another person. It is all ready against federal law to do that.
Also being an avid shooter/hunter, if a gun store is breaking the law, I'll be the first to report them. I give money every year for wetlands management, conservation and some times I even hunt with just a camera. This will be turned into a ban on all firearms.
This will be spun up and I'll get punished for something I did not do. I am a good guy. 22 years in the Airforce and I have worked for federal law enforcement for the last 8 years.
I DID NOTHING WRONG.
Phaser
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there are related stories where bloomberg has blown ongoing investigations by his illegal tactics. He has been told to stop.
The real gist of the thing is that they have not been able to prove that even one gunstore broke the law.
I imagine if they did an investigation on prescription drugs they would find that almost every drugstore has been fooled into selling perscription drugs illegally to criminals.
I have been following this somewhat in the "American Rifleman". Virginia has pretty much told bloomberg to screw off.
This is pretty much a non story. The gun dealers are under more scrutiny than just about any other business and they have a much better record than almost any other business.
Some of the shops being shut down by the ATF are not for criminal violations so much as for minor errors. The feds make far more errors than the gunstores.
I believe that it is only about 4 gunstores in the last 7 years that had any real shaddy dealings.
Now compare that with businesses that hire illegals.
With over 200 million guns floating around already in this country.. criminals will always be able to get a gun.
The real story is how idiotic the gun control crowd like bloomberg is. He botched ongoing undercover operations.
I bet I could get a gun in bermuda curval in a week if I lived there.. I could make one in a relaxed afternoon.
lazs
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that may be true but how would those spindly pasty white legs look in pink shorts?
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Originally posted by lazs2
I bet I could get a gun in bermuda curval in a week if I lived there.. I could make one in a relaxed afternoon.
lazs
I would agree this is probably possible.
But, if you were caught with it you'd spend at least 20 years here at our expense. You may not enjoy the accomadation though....I hear the gym is quite good, but the beach sucks due to the razor wire and there isn't a pool.
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lol
Suprise suprise...here's Stich with a shorts comment.
Unfortunately I can still see his posts. I tried to add him to my ignore list but apparently I cannot ignore him because he is an admin/moderator.
THAT explains quite a bit.
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thanks curval... I think that you are proving my point about guns and the right to bear em.
gun laws don't prevent people from getting or using guns. gun laws can't have any effect at all on gun crime or crime in general.
What does have an effect is gun law penalties. If you allow everyone... everyone not insane or underage... including ex cons the right to have any gun they want... but... you have a penalty for misuse that is say... the death penalty.. use one to rob a store and you get a mandatory death penalty...
people won't use guns badly. your penalties are extreme... like englands.
They don't prevent anyone from getting a firearm or making one.. they simply make it to risky.
on the other hand... you could have a complete ban on all guns of any type but the only penalty would be say... a $5 fine and no one would pay attention to the law.
It is not gun laws that lessen gun crime but gun law penalties.
The NRA has pushed for higher penalties for gun crime for decades.
lazs
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why would you be upset by lazs wearing shorts curval?
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I don't wear shorts... scares the children.
lazs
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For the most part, this new effort (along with Daley's failed effort to sue gun makers for guns misused in crime) is a back door attempt to do what they can't because of the Constitution and the legislative process.
Look at this statistic:
Yet between 1994 and 2002, at least 109 firearms sold by the store were later recovered by New York police.
What percent is that of all firearm sold by the shop during that 8 year period? Pretty small I would bet. And, how many of those "recovered by New York police" were recovered in the commission of a violent crime? In New York it is illegal, basically, to own a handgun. If you buy one for protection anyway and they happen to encounter it during a traffic stop or because your girlfriend was pissed off and dropped a dime or because of an unrelated search of your property then it gets "recovered." It might get recovered when a thief steals it from a legal homeowner in another state and sells it to a gang banger who uses it in a crime.
For example, "assault rifles" are actually used to commit a violent crime about 1 percent of the time, but Brady uses "crime trace data" (basically whenever a firearm is "called in") to imply that such weapons are used in 4 percent of crime. While that is still a very unimpressive figure, it does carry more weight when trying to ban those evil assault weapons "for the children" (who are often counted as children even if they are 22 years old with extensive criminal records).
I'm all for busting dealers that knowingly distribute to criminals. But, whenever such efforts are sponsored by Bloomberg, Daley, Brady or Giuliani you can bet that the ends will almost always justify the means. The "ends" is virtually a total ban on firearm ownership in America and the means are whatever they can get away with.
Charon
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What arms can you own and not in NY?
What is the law for arms in transit?
Just curious.
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Curval, and others: I posted this because of 2 reasons.
1.It was barely covered, or hidden, news. VH1's new pop-trivia quest gets better coverage than an attack on the 2nd amendment. Pitiful.
2.That this is happening. I'm sure no-one thought that the government would just immediately stand up and say, "Deposit all of your firearms and ammunition at the nearest police station, We declare them forthwith to be illegal." They are much more patient than that. Also, the fact that even though some states have given Bloomberg, Daley, or Brady the finger, these three, and others like them, are prevailing. Why? They will use statistics (however they like to spin them) and will point out that closing down places like the ones' listed in the article, will decrease crime. They will use this as leverage to pass more restrictions, more laws, and shut more places down.
I don't hate my country, Curval. But I hate what it's becoming.
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You expect that areas over ridden with crime to be clean in all aspects? The article tries to link all gun shops, to those who operate illegally in the nation's crime centers.
Seriously people, New Orleans, LA, Philly? Is anyone surprised at this?
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Unfortunately, LS, this will not show up in the arguments put forth by people like the Brady coalition.
They will just take the numerical stats, and leave out the pertinent data, to sell the next anti-gun bill in congress.
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So, basically what they're saying is that anti-gun laws only work against people who already obey the law?
Interesting.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't wear shorts... scares the children.
lazs
:rofl
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Originally posted by lazs2
thanks curval... I think that you are proving my point about guns and the right to bear em.
gun laws don't prevent people from getting or using guns. gun laws can't have any effect at all on gun crime or crime in general.
What does have an effect is gun law penalties. If you allow everyone... everyone not insane or underage... including ex cons the right to have any gun they want... but... you have a penalty for misuse that is say... the death penalty.. use one to rob a store and you get a mandatory death penalty...
people won't use guns badly. your penalties are extreme... like englands.
They don't prevent anyone from getting a firearm or making one.. they simply make it to risky.
on the other hand... you could have a complete ban on all guns of any type but the only penalty would be say... a $5 fine and no one would pay attention to the law.
It is not gun laws that lessen gun crime but gun law penalties.
The NRA has pushed for higher penalties for gun crime for decades.
lazs
I would agree that it proves your point if viewed soley from a US perspective.
Except, we do have both here...guns are banned and penalties are severe for having one (even having a bullet attracts severe prison sentances).
It is the correct approach here. It wouldn't work in the US....it would be like closing the stable after the horse has bolted.
FrodeMk3....I wasn't being serious and don't really think you hate America...it is just an O'Clubism I picked up.
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Ahh, cc Curval. No problem
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This is easy..... The 2nd Ammendment guarantees your right to own and carry weapons.
How do I know for sure? Think about the life and times of the people when this was written. They ALL owned guns, they all carried guns, and they all expected to do so without government hassle.
Leave it to the liberals to continue the on-going assault on this right of all Americans.
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Angus, I can't answer your question about the types of guns that can be legally owned in NY....but I suspect that almost any firearm can be legally bought, aside from those specifically prohibited by federal law, such as fully-automatic weapons. Also, saturday night specials were banned long ago. The buying process is undoubtedly harder, due to New York's far more rigorous paper work and background checks. The manner in which firearms may be carried is also subject to more stringent regulation.
Regarding weapons in transit, the laws vary considerably from state to state. The general pattern however is similar to this: weapons in transit are often required to be separated from ammunition, and the weapon itself is required to be cased and locked in the trunk, unless the owner has a concealed carry permit.
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Jessie Jackson is having another protest at a suburban gun store tomorrow. Three gun store protests in the Chicago area in the past 2 months. But not one outside a city gang leader's house. Not one "Snitchin's OK" rally for community involvement and responsibility.
Pushing for regulation that keeps law abiding blacks powerless and at the mercy of the Chicago Police for protection -- Malcom X is rolling over in his grave.
I'd join the counter protest, but the media is not paying all that much attention anymore and I have a date at the range to try out the new 1911, the new rosewood Badger grips on my nickel Colt Trooper mkIII and the new CMP M1 carbine. The post war potbelly stock has an ugly stain job, but the metal on the 1943 carbine is fantastic and the bullet test leaves a full 1/4 inch at the muzzle :)
Charon
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Angus, I can't answer your question about the types of guns that can be legally owned in NY....but I suspect that almost any firearm can be legally bought, aside from those specifically prohibited by federal law, such as fully-automatic weapons. Also, saturday night specials were banned long ago. The buying process is undoubtedly harder, due to New York's far more rigorous paper work and background checks. The manner in which firearms may be carried is also subject to more stringent regulation.
Regarding weapons in transit, the laws vary considerably from state to state. The general pattern however is similar to this: weapons in transit are often required to be separated from ammunition, and the weapon itself is required to be cased and locked in the trunk, unless the owner has a concealed carry permit.
So, similar to here I guess, except for the handguns and auto-rifles which are not allowed.
In the hunting season it is common to drive arond with a ready gun in the trunk or the back seat, and there is not much control about that.
BTW, we can have automatic shotguns with up to 5 shots
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curval... at least we agree on that. I would also say that it would be no problem for me to make a gun or ammo in a lazy afternoon. A bomb would be easier and more effective but...
If a country has never had guns then it can work to make severe penalties to keep ones from showing up.... if, and this is a HUGE if... if the economy stays good and the government stays stable and the population is all of a like mind with pretty much one culture.
When that fails... when ghettos are full of people not assimilated into the tradition and culture of wealth and safety above freedom... or... when the government breaks down and asserts it power by more and more armed force...
Then neither gun laws nor gun penalties work. people will take the chance and live today rather than obey the law.
England to me is a good example... it never really had a homicide or serious crime problem or.... real multiculturalism.... it was easy to keep down the criminals with some barbaric laws and remove what guns were left in the hands of the citizens with some appeal to "the good of the many" socialist jargon and loyalty and... of course... big stick penalties..
Truth is.. as the society in england breaks down... more and more ignore the penalties. The guns themselves are easy to get and or make.
Living in a "gun free land" is living in fantasyland... having nothing to do with the real world and ignoring the real world chewing through the fence. It may work for decades... longer even... but.. human nature will prevail..
The feral packs will eventually attack.. the government will eventually abuse it's power and... on a personal level.. some really bad person will eventually think you are weak and strongarm his way into your life... at that point you would give everything you owned for just one handgun and the ability to use it.
lazs
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Regarding weapons in transit, the laws vary considerably from state to state. The general pattern however is similar to this: weapons in transit are often required to be separated from ammunition, and the weapon itself is required to be cased and locked in the trunk, unless the owner has a concealed carry permit.
I read in an article in a magazine that, there is a Fed law, usually called the passing through law. doesn't matter what the state law is, if that person is passing through the state to another state and has it (gun,weapon) locked, unloaded, locked in trunk. etc. and that person doesn't stop for a longer time than to reasonably get gas, food , use bathroom. the state can't use their state laws against such a person. the article did advise when passing through an anti-gun state, try to keep a low profile, while passing through.
from what it looks like, the NYC fruitcake mayor, may have broke Fed laws interfering with Fed investigations etc. if so, he needs to be arrested and tried on Federal charges.
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Originally posted by Angus
BTW, we can have automatic shotguns with up to 5 shots
Semi.
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Yes I would also say when you see this trend that it should be looked into, but not for the reasons that the article would have you to believe. There is obviously a problem. The problem would be with the load of horse droppings that were fed to the media and lapped up, printed with all the attention grabbing quotes, BUT..............excluding actual details and their bearings on anything.
Guns linked to crime"------"By the ATF". Number one, if you haven`t noticed that the ATF is not on the cutting edge of being on the up and up with the public, then you have either been in a cave or the closet the last few years.
Number two, "Guns linked to crime" can mean just about anything if you are in the market for some eye grabbers for the press and leave out the details. For instance , guns linked to crime can also mean that some of these guns could have been taken into evidence as the result of a legal gun owner protecting himself, family and property.
The article also sort of leads one to think that just because a gun store is not in a heavily populated area and is not a large chain of some sort that there should be some suspicion on the stores practices if they sell a large number of guns. That`s not much of a rocket science formula there to figure why a local store, in a less populated area would sell a large number of guns. This is usualy where the best ranges can be found, the most people in general who have ready access to gun sports of any type and the best hunting areas. They get sort of touchy about you setting a tree stand up on a traffic light pole. :)
Also what should be looked at that was left out is "why" all of the recent flurry by the ATF and exactly "what" they are doing, not what they want the press to print. Such as ,some of these violations that they are throwing out as being so important and making such a big deal out of, are no more than a non capital error or citing for not having complete information, according to them, on forms that haven`t enough room or space to include this.
Why are they so intent on the relatively small, local gun store? Could it possibly be that this is where you usualy find the folks with the most savvy concerning gun owners rights and keeps up with what is and what isn`t being done by the gov agencies such as ATF concerning rights violations, etc. ?
If you haven`t noticed the ATF is not a big fan of personal freedom , the 2nd amendment and the right to each individuals to keep and bear arms for personal or civil defense. They take the approach that government agencies (tax), such as themselves should be the only ones armed. Then, even at that, they don`t believe they are bound by the same laws as the general public. All those little technical, fine print, details such as "Does the address on the search warrant match the actual residence of where they are intending to crash in at midnight?", gets tiring and boring until some legal and innocent gun owner hears and sees armed intruders crashing their door down while their family is asleep and takes action to protect them. Why would a person in the general population wish to have a means in which to protect his family and feel that government might take a wrong turn without these rights? More importantly, why does these agencies fear the people?
It`s much more impressive for very attention grabbing media flare to go in cameras rolling, black clad, armed like you are rolling in a hot LZ than it would to wait till the suspect person, or persons, in question exits the same residence in the morning and then do a stop, detain and straighten the matter out without all the flare , doesn`t it? Well it does until your media induced Rambo raid blows up in your face, you have agents down ..............and the public is wishing you to address all the rights violations, etc.
Reread the importance put on the "straw purchaser" in the article. Look at where the actual flaw is. Is it with the gun shop owner? Nope. OK.....your wife,girlfriend, aunt, sister or any female that you are trusted and known by feels a need to purchase a firearm. Either for concerns over self protection or just getting interested in shooting sports. They know you are knowledgeable and experienced in firearms. They come to you for advise and guidance. You walk them through their needs and come to an agreement on a couple different possibilities for the. Off you go to make the purchase. You walk in, ask some questions, get prices, inspect the firearms available for your female friend or family member and decide that they have what would be best for her. Decision is made to purchase, you place the firearm back on the counter or give it back to the salesman for boxing. Done deal. Female steps in and tells the salesman that the firearm is for her and she will fill out the paper work in her name. Straw Purchaser????? Who`s left to make the decision to sale or to reject due to suspicion? Where`s the flaw and where does the liability fall?
More left out of the article than what is put in for media flash.