Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: crockett on July 13, 2007, 03:54:55 PM
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This documentary is airing on Starz Cinema this Sat night @ 10pm. I looked around on the net and found it on google video. At the end of the movie it says to share it with others so I'm posting it up.
I have the video embedded on one of my websites.. http://www.welched.com and you can also watch it directly @ google http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6621486727392146155&hl=en
All I can say, is if you don't feel sick to your stomach after watching this, then I dunno what's wrong with you. I know our govt has been sold out to big money long ago, but just seeing how bad it is in Iraq pretty much seals the deal.
btw if you served in Iraq and drank water that was supplied by Halliburton, you should see a doctor and be tested for blood pathogens.
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There will ALWAYS be "profiteering" in Warfare. It's a fact of life. "Wanna get out of a Depression fast? Start a war!"
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Mash's right, there-dating all the way back to the Revolutionary war.
I think the question that people find wanting to ask is, was the war STARTED by a war profiteer? Dubya himself had large investments in some defense-related firms. Cheney's old haunt, Halliburton, Which had been a largely oil-industry service provider, got handed all of the rebuilding work, without any delay.I'd think that was the real thing.
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if you don't feel sick to your stomach after watching this, then I dunno what's wrong with you.
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I pretty much gave up feeling sick to my stomach after watching the 72 olympics. Everything since then has been icing on the cake.
Good louck though!
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
There will ALWAYS be "profiteering" in Warfare. It's a fact of life. "Wanna get out of a Depression fast? Start a war!"
I think it's a question of how estrangement the profiteering is. It's one thing if the military needs a service that a company can provide. It's another thing to take military personal off the job, just so they can give that job to a contracted company.
If you watch that movie.. about the 1/hour point they really start getting into detail of how much these companies are overcharging for services, and in my mind stealing from me as an American tax payer. Especially when it's been shown time and time again that they are doing a sub par job on the contracted work.
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WW2 profiteered us out of the great drepression
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Originally posted by Eagler
WW2 profiteered us out of the great drepression
Your great grandparents were taxed 95%
Blame Leonardo DiCaprio (Howard Hugues) for wasting money on making planes that did not work:aok
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Crockett, why do you hate America? Don't you realise you are emboldening the enemy? AlQueda just recruited 50 new terrorists because of this thread.
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Originally posted by Yeager
if you don't feel sick to your stomach after watching this, then I dunno what's wrong with you.
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I pretty much gave up feeling sick to my stomach after watching the 72 olympics. Everything since then has been icing on the cake.
Good louck though!
Even I remember that, and you have a point
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Originally posted by crockett
I think it's a question of how estrangement the profiteering is. It's one thing if the military needs a service that a company can provide. It's another thing to take military personal off the job, just so they can give that job to a contracted company.
Shenanigans! I CALL Shenanigans!!!
This particular argument is B.S for the most part. The reason the military is so dependent on defense contractors dates back to the DRAWDOWN after the 1991 Gulf War and End of the Cold War. The military was downsized by a pretty significant percentage. All part of the peace dividend. Plus base closures on top of that.
Remember any of this?
Final result was Pentagon juggling numbers as to authorized end strength numbers from the civilian leadership (politicians in D.C.) for personnel and outsourcing many non-combat roles to the civilian sector in order to come under those authorized end strength numbers and keep enough trigger-pullers and combat arms.
For example: Most line companies in the U.S. Army no longer have Medics or Cooks (they are battalion level, and fewer of them), most Clerk positions disappeared in line companies. Many Quartermaster jobs (laundry is a big one) as well as supply went to civilian contracts. For Iraq and Afghanistan, there was no where near enough EOD people, so civilians make up a large part of ord disposal and counter land mine work.
You want to push the defense contractors out of those contracts, fine, simply DOUBLE the size of the military the United States fields to do all those jobs. Takes roughly a year to add each additional 15,000 to 30,000 soldiers to the end strength numbers.... if bonuses are high enough..... which means the 150,000 contractors in OIF and OEF can be replaced in about 5 to 10 years.
War profiteering happens in all wars. The higher costs of using civilian contractors during a war is offset by not having those folks on the payrolls between the wars.
And as to why civilians working in a war zone can take home 2 to 3 times the net pay as their military counterparts, you've got to entice enough qualified people to go to a war zone while the stateside economy is doing well and unemployment is around 4 - 4.5% --- that will cost you. Turnover among civilian contractors during OIF-I and OIF-II was around 30% for many companies. 1 in 3 did not finish their contract because of the conditions they were living and working in.
Also be advised that Congress and the IRS changed the way they tax overseas pay in 2006, so it is not as good as it once was in regards to what you pay in taxes from the war zone as a civilian contractor. Also, the civs don't have all the benefits and protections that the military folks do. Their support structure is not a solid (not that the military structure is itself all that "solid" in that regards either).
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Mash's right, there-dating all the way back to the Revolutionary war.
I think the question that people find wanting to ask is, was the war STARTED by a war profiteer? Dubya himself had large investments in some defense-related firms. Cheney's old haunt, Halliburton, Which had been a largely oil-industry service provider, got handed all of the rebuilding work, without any delay.I'd think that was the real thing.
Lets not forget Prescott Bush.
While US GI's were fighting Nazis, long after after America had entered the war, Prescott Bush worked for, did business with, and profited from companies owned by Fritz Thyssen.... whose companies produced the steel that was said to be the "heart of the Nazi war machine". Prescott Bushs assets were seized under the "Trading with the Enemy Act".
Wonderful family values these Bush people have, little W learned early on how war was good for the family. I seriously thought the Clinton's would be the lowest of the low for awhile, but the Bush family has impressed me with a new level of foulness.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
Lets not forget Prescott Bush.
While US GI's were fighting Nazis, long after after America had entered the war, Prescott Bush worked for, did business with, and profited from companies owned by Fritz Thyssen.... whose companies produced the steel that was said to be the "heart of the Nazi war machine". Prescott Bushs assets were seized under the "Trading with the Enemy Act".
Wonderful family values these Bush people have, little W learned early on how war was good for the family. I seriously thought the Clinton's would be the lowest of the low for awhile, but the Bush family has impressed me with a new level of foulness.
http://www.adl.org/Internet_Rumors/prescott.htm
This is the third time you've been proven wrong. Twice by me, but most of the credit goes to Virgil.
But you really don't care about the facts. You just hear what you want to hear. It doesn't matter where the source comes from, you believe it if you want to believe it.
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Originally posted by Eagler
WW2 profiteered us out of the great drepression
How?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
How?
yer joking right?
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While US GI's were fighting Nazis, long after after America had entered the war, Prescott Bush worked for, did business with, and profited from companies owned by Fritz Thyssen.... whose companies produced the steel that was said to be the "heart of the Nazi war machine". Prescott Bushs assets were seized under the "Trading with the Enemy Act".
Even if that were true, I wouldn't hold it against his descendents. That would be like me holding a grudge against you for your grandfather commiting murder. (Not saying he did, just an example) It is in no way fair to you.
Heck a lot of folks did business with the Nazis before we went to war with them. Do you hold a grudge against their descendents as well? The USSR did business with Nazi Germany up until Germany attacked them. Do you hold a grudge against the USSR for that as well?
Come on Marine, you're smarter than this. :)
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Originally posted by rpm
Crockett, why do you hate America? Don't you realise you are emboldening the enemy? AlQueda just recruited 50 new terrorists because of this thread.
I'd say if you can watch that film and "NOT" be disgusted by what our govt has allowed to happen. Well then I'd have to say you hate America and don't support our troops.
;)
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Shenanigans! I CALL Shenanigans!!!
I will call Shenanigans on your post, because you didn't even watch the documentry.
This isn't about the militrary farming out jobs, it's about a massive amouts of over billing that's going on.
For instance...
Halliburton charges the army $100 for every bag of laundry it does.. (1 solder equals one bag of laundry.) Something that would cost me or you at a local laundry mat less than $5 dollars to do.
btw they also charge the govt for each of the employees whom do the laundry. So it's not like they are charging a bunch, just because they have to pay a lot to get people over there. We get billed for the service and the employee.
They are charging the US army $45 dollars for a 6 pack of coke.. (not even real coke, but some generic brand bought locally)
Another nice one was using contractors to deliver mail to bases in Iraq. Instead of sending a full load of mail, they sent the contractors out with a "single" bag of mail, because they could bill more. Which also puts the contracter lives at risk even more than it already was.
The govt gets charged for every truck private contractors put in Iraq. Halliburton decided it was much easier to destroy the trucks (billed at about $40k each) rather than change the oil filters or change the tires.
Another nice one was Halliburton had executive employees on a base in Iraq. They never leave the base (ie they have to stay on the base and have no where to go) Halliburton bills the govt for a truck that's fully loaded with all the crap you could ever dream of for each of these executives. It's a 3 or 4 year lease on the trucks at a tax payer cost of 200k each. Did I mention the employees aren't allowed to leave the base?
This list goes on and on and we are paying for it, because it's our tax dollars being stolen.. watch the video
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This isn't about the militrary farming out jobs, it's about a massive amouts of over billing that's going on.
This isn't anything new at all. This sort of thing has been going on for decades at least.
I remember a plastic cap for a chair leg for the AWACS planes used to cost the Air Force over $1000. I kid you not. When someone reported that and an investigation was done. It was found that the materials for the cap cost .05 each and even if the Air Force ordered them one at a time from Boeing (I think it was Boeing, could be mistaken) they shouldn't cost more than $10 each. Ordered in quantity, .50 or so is what the price should have been.
We've all heard about claw hammers and toilet seats being overcharged. I'm not saying this is ok because it certainly isn't. It' when things like this hit the mainstream media or some soldier/sailor/marine/airman notices the price tag and reports it, thats when things like this get changed.
There are usually some pretty stiff fines issued to companies that consistently overcharge as well.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
http://www.adl.org/Internet_Rumors/prescott.htm
This is the third time you've been proven wrong. Twice by me, but most of the credit goes to Virgil.
But you really don't care about the facts. You just hear what you want to hear. It doesn't matter where the source comes from, you believe it if you want to believe it.
"How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
"Fortune From The Nazis -The Dutch Connection" By Attorney John Loftus
http://www.rense.com/general26/dutch.htm
http://www.clamormagazine.org/issues/14/feature3.php
"According to classified documents from Dutch intelligence and US government archives, President George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush made considerable profits off Auschwitz slave labor. In fact, President Bush himself is an heir to these profits from the holocaust which were placed in a blind trust in 1980 by his father, former president George Herbert Walker Bush."
Edit:
And a "fair and balanced" view from Fox news:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html
"Reports of Bush's involvement with the seized bank have been circulating on the Internet for years and have been reported by some mainstream media. The newly declassified documents provide additional details about the Union Banking-Thyssen connection."
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Originally posted by Elfie
Even if that were true, I wouldn't hold it against his descendents. That would be like me holding a grudge against you for your grandfather commiting murder. (Not saying he did, just an example) It is in no way fair to you.
Heck a lot of folks did business with the Nazis before we went to war with them. Do you hold a grudge against their descendents as well? The USSR did business with Nazi Germany up until Germany attacked them. Do you hold a grudge against the USSR for that as well?
Come on Marine, you're smarter than this. :)
Except that they, the Bush, have kept the Nazi $$. I'm not laying blame on W, just pointing out the "family values" from which he spawned... and as you can see, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Personally?, I'd keep the $$ too and do business with anyone who'd make me that rich.. I have no values and will go to hell if there is one, but I'm not running the country and would hope that if my family history were this slimy.. the public would reject my bid to do so.
http://www.clamormagazine.org/issues/14/feature3.php
"According to classified documents from Dutch intelligence and US government archives, President George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush made considerable profits off Auschwitz slave labor. In fact, President Bush himself is an heir to these profits from the holocaust which were placed in a blind trust in 1980 by his father, former president George Herbert Walker Bush."
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
yer joking right?
No.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
The newly declassified documents provide additional details about the Union Banking-Thyssen connection."
source (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERthyssen.htm) By 1930 Thyssen was one of the leading backers of the Nazi Party. The following year he recruited Hjalmar Schacht to the cause and in November, 1932, the two men joined with other industrialists in signing the letter that urged Paul von Hindenburg to appoint Adolf Hitler as chancellor. This was successful and on 20th February, 1933, they arranged a meeting of the Association of German Industrialists that raised 3 million marks for the Nazi Party in the forthcoming election.
Thyssen supported the measures that Hitler took against the left-wing political groups and trade unions. He also put pressure on Hitler to suppress the left of the Nazi Party that resulted in the Night of the Long Knives. However, as a Catholic, Thyssen objected when Hitler began persecuting people for their religious beliefs.
Thyssen resigned as state councillor in protest against Crystal Night. The following year he fled to Switzerland and Hitler promptly confiscated his property. Thyssen moved to France but was arrested by the Vichy government and was returned to Germany where he was sent to a concentration camp.
Like Thyssen, many Germans were wrong about Hitler and many Germans changed their minds after further consideration
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So many American businessmen did business with the Nazis prior to war that it can truthfully be said that none of them were "innocent."
But we weren't at war with them, and trading with German companies was not a crime.
How any American company could have profitted from the death camps is beyond my comprehension.
But you know the Bush family, they're really smart...unless they're being stupid.
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heh. It's the "Coalition of the Billing"
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Sending updated Resume to Halliburton/KBR. Before the Liberals ruin American Free Enterprize for everyone.
Been to a KBR Job Fair in Houston 2 years ago. It was very informative.
As for all you Town Criers.... There are some InDUHviduals in todays military that cry as loud about the lil things.
:cry Waaaahhhh I joined for the Education Benifits...Guess yer education began when you raised yer hand.
:cry Waaaaaahhhh I joined for the Medical Benifits... Well hell if you get hit, well try and patch you up the best we can... Did you know there was a War and people get wounded or killed?
:cry Waaaaahhhhh this is too hard for me to do any more.... This isn't McDonalds assshat.... your're expected to do your job.
:cry Cry me a River.
Did my 20 Active Army.... Haven't cried yet.
Mac
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Originally posted by Thrawn
No.
Nice try. Take your poop slinging elsewhere.
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Originally posted by Elfie
This isn't anything new at all. This sort of thing has been going on for decades at least.
I remember a plastic cap for a chair leg for the AWACS planes used to cost the Air Force over $1000. I kid you not. When someone reported that and an investigation was done. It was found that the materials for the cap cost .05 each and even if the Air Force ordered them one at a time from Boeing (I think it was Boeing, could be mistaken) they shouldn't cost more than $10 each. Ordered in quantity, .50 or so is what the price should have been.
We've all heard about claw hammers and toilet seats being overcharged. I'm not saying this is ok because it certainly isn't. It' when things like this hit the mainstream media or some soldier/sailor/marine/airman notices the price tag and reports it, thats when things like this get changed.
There are usually some pretty stiff fines issued to companies that consistently overcharge as well.
Well don't you think it's just a tad bit odd, that we don't have enough money in our budget for schools in this country. Yet we are supposed to ignore this kind of excessive billing?
Don't you find it a bit odd, that we have all the money in the world to buy these contractor trucks @ 200k a pop.. Yet we can't supply our troops with a battle proven armored truck like the ?
Cougar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar_(vehicle))
A truck that not a single soldier has been killed in by IED or other explosives?
I say this and it's really simple.. All you right wingers that support Bush and co.. Don't say another word about any liberal not supporting our troops or this war. As long as this kind of gross over billing is being done with out being put in check. Well then I say none of you support our troops.
This is the one area that if you support the war or not, every person in this country should be sickened by this kind of bull****. So I say this, if you support our troops like you guys claim you do.. well stand up and do something about this BS.
If overspending was put in check, I bet you the military could replace at the very minimum 50% of the hummers in Iraq with Cougar Armored trucks. Is Halliburton profits more important than our soldiers lives?
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Originally posted by AWMac
Sending updated Resume to Halliburton/KBR. Before the Liberals ruin American Free Enterprize for everyone.
Been to a KBR Job Fair in Houston 2 years ago. It was very informative.
As for all you Town Criers.... There are some InDUHviduals in todays military that cry as loud about the lil things.
:cry Waaaahhhh I joined for the Education Benifits...Guess yer education began when you raised yer hand.
:cry Waaaaaahhhh I joined for the Medical Benifits... Well hell if you get hit, well try and patch you up the best we can... Did you know there was a War and people get wounded or killed?
:cry Waaaaahhhhh this is too hard for me to do any more.... This isn't McDonalds assshat.... your're expected to do your job.
:cry Cry me a River.
Did my 20 Active Army.... Haven't cried yet.
Mac
Yea? Maybe you should watch this documentary tonight at 10 pm on Starz Cinema. So that way we don't have to hear about you crying up a river when you go to Iraq and have your legs blown off because KBR put profit before your safety.
edit..
btw.. you must have missed economic class, because there is no "Free Enterprise" going on in regards to Iraq.. It's more like "free handouts" provided by US tax payers.
There is no competitive bidding, and there is no open competition. By supporting this kind of BS you are doing away with "Free Enterprise " in America.
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Well don't you think it's just a tad bit odd, that we don't have enough money in our budget for schools in this country. Yet we are supposed to ignore this kind of excessive billing?
You obviously don't realize just how many parts/services the Pentagon uses each year. It just isn't reasonable to expect them to be able to investigate the price on each and every part/service they use.
When I was in the Air Force, they had a program (I can't recall the name of it atm) that encouraged folks to fill out a form on anything they thought might be over priced. If, after filling out the form and sending it in, it was found that said part/service WAS over priced, the individual that sent in the form got a cash award based on the future savings. Iirc the airman that turned in those plastic chair leg caps got a cash award of something like $10,000.
What's the moral to this story? Instead of wailing and wringing your hands on this board......find out how to report this stuff through the proper channels and you just might make yourself some cash while helping out the gooberment.
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Originally posted by Elfie
You obviously don't realize just how many parts/services the Pentagon uses each year. It just isn't reasonable to expect them to be able to investigate the price on each and every part/service they use.
When I was in the Air Force, they had a program (I can't recall the name of it atm) that encouraged folks to fill out a form on anything they thought might be over priced. If, after filling out the form and sending it in, it was found that said part/service WAS over priced, the individual that sent in the form got a cash award based on the future savings. Iirc the airman that turned in those plastic chair leg caps got a cash award of something like $10,000.
What's the moral to this story? Instead of wailing and wringing your hands on this board......find out how to report this stuff through the proper channels and you just might make yourself some cash while helping out the gooberment.
I'm pretty sure they could very easily pay for people to cross check for price gouging in their contracts. In fact they would likely save the US tax payers probably a few billion dollars year. I'd think trading off even 50 million to pay for cross checks would be worth while.
Besides that you don't have to check every single item, they could easily have the same result by checking a random percentage of billed items or services.
If US watchdog groups can find this kind of stuff via freedom of information act.. Well stands pretty good reason that the US Air Force or whom ever could find them as well.
The money save would more than pay for the expensise of cross checking the billing. You think Walmart doesn't cross check it's billing?
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If we were still a Republic instead of a lacky and potato for the Federal Reserve, we would not be in Iraq. We would be securing our borders and our citizens. Just like we all do with our families and homes everyday we leave for work. (You lock the door) WTF people quit buying into this spoon fed Govt. crap. Open your eyes These people we elected are suppose to defend the constitution. Instead they walk on it and the memories of all who gave their lives for it. It is not about Democrats or Republicans. They are the same people. They belong to the same clubs. The NWO!
:noid
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Originally posted by crockett
I'm pretty sure they could very easily pay for people to cross check for price gouging in their contracts. In fact they would likely save the US tax payers probably a few billion dollars year. I'd think trading off even 50 million to pay for cross checks would be worth while.
Besides that you don't have to check every single item, they could easily have the same result by checking a random percentage of billed items or services.
If US watchdog groups can find this kind of stuff via freedom of information act.. Well stands pretty good reason that the US Air Force or whom ever could find them as well.
The money save would more than pay for the expensise of cross checking the billing. You think Walmart doesn't cross check it's billing?
You still have no comprehension of the enormity of that task. Just for the F-15 fighter for instance, there are literally thousands and thousands of parts. That's just one piece of equipment the military uses.
Walmart isn't even a valid comparison. Comparing Walmart to the military would be like comparing your local 7-11 to a Super-Walmart. That might not even show the magnitude of difference between Walmart and the military.
I'll use the LAU-114 missile launcher as an example. Each wiring bundle (and there are several) has it's own part number as does each individual wire within that bundle. Each bundle has from 10ish to as many as 50 - 60 wires. (Bear with me on the numbers, it's been a LONG time since I worked on a LAU-114 launcher.) Next we move to electronic components such as resistors, electrical connectors and power supply just to name a couple. Then we have mechanical parts such as the locking mechanism that prevents the missile from just falling off the launcher, safety locks ((both mechanical and electrical) to prevent accidental firing while the aircraft is on the ground. Each panel on the launcher has it's own part number. There are about 10 - 12 different types of screws/fasteners used in the LAU-114. There are literally over 1000 DIFFERENT parts used in the LAU-114. The LAU-114 is just ONE sub-assembly on the F-15. Are you starting to get an idea of the magnitude of the number of parts on an F-15?
Now try to multiply what that by the sheer number of different weapons and equipment the military uses. It's mind boggling. This is what makes it so difficult for the military to avoid items that are being price gouged. This is also why the Air Force ( I assume the other branches have similar programs) relies on each and every person in the chain that orders parts, from the lowly flight line grunt (I was one of those :D) to the person pulling the parts from supply to the person ordering parts from the manufacturers and everyone inbetween to watch the prices of said parts and report (via those forms I talked about) prices that appear to be out of whack.
Is it a perfect system? Of course not. Does it help, it sure does. Like I said before, find out how YOU as a taxpayer can report these things. Then do your civic duty and report them. ;)
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If we were still a Republic instead of a lacky and potato for the Federal Reserve,
Can you explain that in more detail please? :)
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
"How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
"Fortune From The Nazis -The Dutch Connection" By Attorney John Loftus
http://www.rense.com/general26/dutch.htm
http://www.clamormagazine.org/issues/14/feature3.php
"According to classified documents from Dutch intelligence and US government archives, President George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush made considerable profits off Auschwitz slave labor. In fact, President Bush himself is an heir to these profits from the holocaust which were placed in a blind trust in 1980 by his father, former president George Herbert Walker Bush."
Edit:
And a "fair and balanced" view from Fox news:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100474,00.html
"Reports of Bush's involvement with the seized bank have been circulating on the Internet for years and have been reported by some mainstream media. The newly declassified documents provide additional details about the Union Banking-Thyssen connection."
This sounds like a 9-11 conspiracy theory. Yes, I read all of the articles you linked.
Again, you are trying to lay blame and responsibility on the President for things his grandfather may/may not have done. Rediculous.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Nice try. Take your poop slinging elsewhere.
Who the hell was talking to you anyways?
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Originally posted by Elfie
You still have no comprehension of the enormity of that task. Just for the F-15 fighter for instance, there are literally thousands and thousands of parts. That's just one piece of equipment the military uses.
Walmart isn't even a valid comparison. Comparing Walmart to the military would be like comparing your local 7-11 to a Super-Walmart. That might not even show the magnitude of difference between Walmart and the military.
Is it a perfect system? Of course not. Does it help, it sure does. Like I said before, find out how YOU as a taxpayer can report these things. Then do your civic duty and report them. ;)
Well me and myself, trying to find these issues is like trying to use a piece of ductape to pug a leak in the hoover dam.
Sure maybe I might get lucky and find a few items after digging through thousands of pages, however you are missing the point I am getting at.
We as the people of this country, need to start taking a stand and not accepting this kind of BS. The reason it happens is because the enviorment in our current govt allows it to happen.
That is what needs to change, then the rest will slowly take care of it self. The only way to make that change start to happen, is for the public to be made aware. That's the ball that has to start rolling.
Hence the reason I think it's imporant for people to watch this documenty. Nothing will change until the people of this country decide they have had enough of the BS.
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The reason it happens is because the enviorment in our current govt allows it to happen.
The reason a majority of it happens and continues to happen, is for reasons I have already stated.
Well me and myself, trying to find these issues is like trying to use a piece of ductape to pug a leak in the hoover dam.
The situation isn't a whole lot better for the military either, just due to the sheer volume of parts/services the military deals with.
We as the people of this country, need to start taking a stand and not accepting this kind of BS. The reason it happens is because the enviorment in our current govt allows it to happen.
The major media outlets need to really harp on this issue. Iirc, it wasn't until the $500 claw hammers, $20,000 toilet seats (or whatever they were priced at) became public through the major media outlets that investigations were done and programs initiated (like the one I talked about) to help combat this issue.
You can also write your congressman and senator, show them a link to that video, give them a brief overview of it with FACTS and SPECIFIC examples from the video.
As to your earlier suggestion about the military having a group of folks that specifically search for these types of issues....I think funding for that would have to be obtained from Congress. Which is something else you could mention in your correspondence with your representatives.
I'm not missing your point at all. I'm just trying to impress upon you the magnitude of the job at hand and why it is so difficult for the military to police this issue themselves with how the system currently works.
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Elfie, I always figured that the dramatic overpricing was how the DoD was able to funnel money to ultra-secret black projects. You know, things like the Stealth fighter/Bomber, KH-11's, that sort of thing. I mean, if you run the funding for something like that through normal channels, it won't remain a secret long. So, you skim the money out of other areas, using mundane items like hammers and toilet seats.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Elfie, I always figured that the dramatic overpricing was how the DoD was able to funnel money to ultra-secret black projects. You know, things like the Stealth fighter/Bomber, KH-11's, that sort of thing. I mean, if you run the funding for something like that through normal channels, it won't remain a secret long. So, you skim the money out of other areas, using mundane items like hammers and toilet seats.
That's a good point and it undoubtedly happens with some projects. Isn't there also a budget for *black* projects as well that your average congressman and senator doesn't get to see itemized lists for?
Look at the movie Independence Day, they talk about funding Area 51 that way.:noid
Ok, just kidding on that last part. :D
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The way things are on capitol hill, anything with any kind of secret label would get compromised, before the ink even dried on the funding proposal.
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Originally posted by Elfie
You obviously don't realize just how many parts/services the Pentagon uses each year. It just isn't reasonable to expect them to be able to investigate the price on each and every part/service they use.
It is quite reasonable. That is the job of the Government Accountability Office (GAO).
The Air Force doesn't just pick a guy out of the Yellow Pages when they need parts. You obviously just don't realise they bid contracts for every part and service (until Iraq). I'm sure KBR ran those $35 cases of Coca-Cola past the GAO before they bid the contract.
Oops! No Bid Contract! $$$$$$$$$$
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Originally posted by rpm
It is quite reasonable. That is the job of the Government Accountability Office (GAO).
The Air Force doesn't just pick a guy out of the Yellow Pages when they need parts. You obviously just don't realise they bid contracts for every part and service (until Iraq). I'm sure KBR ran those $35 cases of Coca-Cola past the GAO before they bid the contract.
Oops! No Bid Contract! $$$$$$$$$$
$45 dollar 6 packs.. A case is 24 cans.. KBR would charge the tax payers $180 dollars for a case. Or halliburton I forget which company it was..
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Originally posted by rpm
It is quite reasonable. That is the job of the Government Accountability Office (GAO).
The Air Force doesn't just pick a guy out of the Yellow Pages when they need parts. You obviously just don't realise they bid contracts for every part and service (until Iraq). I'm sure KBR ran those $35 cases of Coca-Cola past the GAO before they bid the contract.
Oops! No Bid Contract! $$$$$$$$$$
Even the GAO doesn't have the manpower to go over every contract with a fine tooth comb. Nor do they have the manpower to research costs on every item. In a perfect world they wouldn't even need to do that, but with greedy people alive and well doing business with the government it is bound to happen.
You would think that they would catch things like $500 hammers, $20,000 toilet seats and $45 6 packs of soda, but obviously they don't catch them all.
No bid contracts only add to this problem imo. Otoh, with all the red tape involved with the bidding process that process can take a stupid amount of time.
I think the bidding process should have been accelerated somehow instead of just handing out contracts w/o companies and corporations having to bid.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
The way things are on capitol hill, anything with any kind of secret label would get compromised, before the ink even dried on the funding proposal.
If I remember correctly, the F-117 project was funded via the Black projects budget. I seem to recall reading about that somewhere, although I could be wrong on this.
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Originally posted by uberhun
If we were still a Republic instead of a lacky and potato for the Federal Reserve, we would not be in Iraq. We would be securing our borders and our citizens. Just like we all do with our families and homes everyday we leave for work. (You lock the door) WTF people quit buying into this spoon fed Govt. crap. Open your eyes These people we elected are suppose to defend the constitution. Instead they walk on it and the memories of all who gave their lives for it. It is not about Democrats or Republicans. They are the same people. They belong to the same clubs. The NWO!
:noid
Of all the posts in this thread thus far, uber has touched on the crux of the matter. Especially his 1st phrase.
As far as the NWO goes, I think it's just the OWO (Old World Order) of a bunch of guys liking money a whole lot more than they like people. It's like a game. Like Aces High's "scoreboard" page that so many mock because you can game the game. But it's the game that's played, you know what I mean?
Just finishing up a really good book by G. K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy. Only 150 pages. I'm about 35 from the end. Will have to reread it carefully. Good to have a background in philosophy and literature which I somehow picked up along life's way. Good book. Offers a wonderful alternative to the old game.
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(http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2007/POLITICS/07/14/Bush.radio.ap/t1home.Bush.afp.gi.jpg)
I wonder what Cheney's thinking?
(http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/images/chart0306.gif)
Yeah, they are only charts. I'm hoping it's all made up and an awful coincidence.
Got it from http://www.halliburtonwatch.org
They are a pinko tool, right?
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Originally posted by crockett
Yea? Maybe you should watch this documentary tonight at 10 pm on Starz Cinema. So that way we don't have to hear about you crying up a river when you go to Iraq and have your legs blown off because KBR put profit before your safety.
Ignorant.:mad:
Did you lose your legs, has anybody in your family lost their legs? If so was it because of KBR, or because of combat? Have you been around anybody that has lost limbs over there? Did they cry about KBR? You're the one doing all the crying, keyboard commando.
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Thank you Hap!
I am serious about this people. If you dig deep enough the truth is exsposed. We as a people of this great country known as the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA have an oppertunity to reclaim it and fix it. Only you and I can do that. It is easy be involved in electing officials that will defend and honour the Constitution. It is really that simple! Take some time out of your life and do a little reasearch on these so called canidates who belong to these so called "Political parties" They all talk the same crap.
Their are alternatives. Seek them out! support them! Only if they are willing to support the constitution! Over the course of the last 45 to 50 yrs right up to the Eisenhower administration their have been executive orders passed that slowly have been eroding our rights as citizens. Their is a speech by Eisenhower easily acessible on (You Tube) warning us as citzens about the Multi National Corproational frame work that is being put in place to undermine our rights as citizens and our beloved constitution that makes this country so special and great. It does not matter who you vote for in a Republican/Democratic environment. You will get the same result because they represent the same "One World Ideal" This country is slowly and methodically going down the road of the "European Union".
Google "North American Union" and see what happens. Civil Activism through the frame work of the laws of this great nation is what you can do as a citizen. I live in Chicago. Our Mayor is out of control it his intent to turn the city I love into a Socialist sanctuary. If he gets his way all firearms will be banned in the city. except for the police and the crimminals. By law all firearms have to be registered and I need to carry a federal firearm owners
identification card to be in compliance with the law. I have complied with these ordnances as a good citizen. Now if the city council votes in the weapons ban in place I will have to turn my firearms in or they will come to my house and confiscate them. Is that "constitutionally" correct? This is one example of how our current government (For the people by the people)
operates locally and federally. I love my country! sincerely I do, but we need to wake up. Demand from your represenatives that take an oath to obey the constitution of the United States of America to up hold and defend it! Take the time and do a little research. Quit being a stockyard animal, read the constitution/the bill of rights. This is what our fore fathers fought and died for. This is what all of our great service people fought and died for yesterday and today. Those people deserve our admiration and respect every minute of everyday. Get involved now before you can't!
!:aok
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crocket... don't you think that a left wing anti war director might...just might.. exaggerate a tiny bit especially in todays climate?
I see nothing but documentaries and movies that are anti war and yet.. when I talk to the troops.. they don't feel that way at all.
As for your idiotic school comment.. fact is.. we are paying out twice what a private school would charge and getting nothing for the money...
If we only have so much we can do with taxes I would rather it all go to a war and "profiteers" than building new and every growing social programs..
talk about your wastes of money... talk about debt that never ends... look at the schools and social security and medicare and section 8 housing a food stamps and planned parenthood and million other worthless and growing larger programs.
Rather flush money down the toilet than give it to a socialist.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2 when I talk to the troops.. they don't feel that way at all.
Lazs, I've never spoken to soldiers on this. But I have read a reporter's blog. Some of you will know him. I've forgotten his name. He's been there maybe since the beginning. And I don't think he's associated to the big news companies.
He essentially says the same thing you said Lazs. The stuff he reports -- not opines -- winds up getting reported eventually but its not highlighted.
Someone help with who this guy is. He's gotten to know soldiers well and what little I've read that he has written has all the hallmarks of 1st hand experience and no massaging by news editors.
And as I recall, he dosen't sound or appear to be crank in any fashion.
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Went hunting through old emails to Sister.
Found him.
http://michaelyon-online.com/wp/baqubah-update-05-july-2007.htm
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I have talked to a dozen or more where I simply said... "tell me what you think.. should we be there?"
they say it is rough but a good thing... they talk of progress and right and heroism that never get's reported. I listen to em call in on talk shows..
This is different than the vietnam thing.. I was against that and so were a very large portion of the soldiers... not the idea so much as the waste in the way we were fighting.. the not wiping out north vietnam.
The anti war crowd had no trouble finding hundreds.. thousands of soldier who hated the war and felt it was a waste and reported ever kind of war crime..
Here is is different... only some democrats and hollywood really hate the war... only they are weeping about the "poor soldiers"
I always end up by telling a soldier that I have no real say but whatever they think we should do is one hell of a lot more important to me that what some movie producer or pelosie or crocket thinks should be done.
When the soldiers get fed up then so will I...
But... Unlike vietnam.. it isn't the war the soldiers are fed up with it is the democrats and hollywood and the news media.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I have talked to a dozen or more where I simply said... "tell me what you think.. should we be there?"
they say it is rough but a good thing... they talk of progress and right and heroism that never get's reported. I listen to em call in on talk shows..
This is different than the vietnam thing.. I was against that and so were a very large portion of the soldiers... not the idea so much as the waste in the way we were fighting.. the not wiping out north vietnam.
The anti war crowd had no trouble finding hundreds.. thousands of soldier who hated the war and felt it was a waste and reported ever kind of war crime..
Here is is different... only some democrats and hollywood really hate the war... only they are weeping about the "poor soldiers"
I always end up by telling a soldier that I have no real say but whatever they think we should do is one hell of a lot more important to me that what some movie producer or pelosie or crocket thinks should be done.
When the soldiers get fed up then so will I...
But... Unlike vietnam.. it isn't the war the soldiers are fed up with it is the democrats and hollywood and the news media.
lazs
Lazs,
I have always respected your insight and comments in these blogs you tend to be right on. What I would like to comment on this last one is your reference to democrats/hollywood/media/ make sure you reference the republicans to brother. They all talk the same language. Now if you show me a true conservative, who is interested in defending the constitution instead of a multi national bank known as theFEDERAL RESERVE
I will jump on. For the rest of you people who are a little confused about our tax system and how the money gets appropriated do a little more reasearch. When they say we need to raise taxes to support our war efforts or support our troops and the increase in taxes comes out of your pay check it is only going to the federal reserve to pay off the interest debt generated by them printing money and loaning to the treasury department.
Thank Woodrow Wilson for that one! By the way that tax is illegal per our constitution.
!
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uber... thank you.. I don't really deserve that tho... I have lived a few decades during interesting times and paid attention.
the republicans are scum. We have a two party system.. we have the scum party and the end of all rights as we know em party.
It is unfortunate that those are the only choices.. I guess it has to do with too many people all being able to get around too well... we all want to mind everyone elses business these days... we feel that we have the right to tell others how to live and what they have to pay for and what risks they can or can't take... even to the point of what they can eat.
And we do it because... well... we justify it based on every person affects every other in a socialist society... we say their risk costs us money in medical because we have passed laws that say we are all responsible for each others medical.. a catch 22 to slavery.
The democrats are about 10 times worse than the republicans.. they are running eagerly to socialism while the scum bag gutless republicans are following their noses and the polls to it.
The pendulum is due to swing the other way... or... blood in the streets... as sure as global cooling follows global warming.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
uber... thank you.. I don't really deserve that tho... I have lived a few decades during interesting times and paid attention.
the republicans are scum. We have a two party system.. we have the scum party and the end of all rights as we know em party.
It is unfortunate that those are the only choices.. I guess it has to do with too many people all being able to get around too well... we all want to mind everyone elses business these days... we feel that we have the right to tell others how to live and what they have to pay for and what risks they can or can't take... even to the point of what they can eat.
And we do it because... well... we justify it based on every person affects every other in a socialist society... we say their risk costs us money in medical because we have passed laws that say we are all responsible for each others medical.. a catch 22 to slavery.
The democrats are about 10 times worse than the republicans.. they are running eagerly to socialism while the scum bag gutless republicans are following their noses and the polls to it.
The pendulum is due to swing the other way... or... blood in the streets... as sure as global cooling follows global warming.
lazs
All very true Lazs
People the only solution to turn this around is to get involved. They being the system have slowly led all of us to believe that if you vote nothing will change. Well in one way they are right. Because they all answer to one authority. In another way they are wrong. One way is for you to get active locally. Protest your district switching to computer operated polling stations.
Write in your canidate for president this time. Insist that they support the CONSTITUTION! Don't accept what they are feeding you. Don't become a socialist Guinea pig for a NEW WORLD ORDER Do not accept the new NATIONAL ID CARD Wake up people!