Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on July 14, 2007, 05:29:00 AM
-
Here you go...
Earlier tonight I was "accused" of "15" HO's by a certain someone. Told him he was mistaken and got the typical diatrab on 200. Told him i'd be happy to post the action in question.
The reality is that HO's are simply a part of the game....are there any here....you be the judge. All I see is questionable ACM on his part. Now the other part of the diatrab "ack hugger" certainly has some merit....then again I get bounced as I clear the field ack on takeoff and then get bounced in the ack as well.... I left the clip uneditied so its a bit long (5 min) but it shows the entire "action" in question.
Personally to me there is no "HO" beyond an actual merge, but even by the broadest possible terms the simple truth is that 90%+ of "HO's" simply are nothing but poor ACM by the victim followed by a whine......
Bad ACM=death=whine (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/perrequest.ahf)
-
Just a general note not specific to this movie:
If you claim you have been Ho'ed 15 times in a single flight, you are openly stating: "I suck!". For it would be just a sign of your own fundamental inability to assess situations and to react accordingly.
Just my 2 cents...
-
just do what i do when im about to be HO'ed....when the enemy is 1000 away roll left or right as fast as your plane will go. It's as simple as that! the enemy will miss you 95% of the time.
-
The film speaks for itself; no HO. Nice A20 flyen btw. What convergence did you have those 50's set at?
-
Yeah, it's pretty 'sucky' when a spit can't help but get HO'd fifteen times. I'd definitely say there was a pile-it behind the yoke, as in it was a big pile of feces.
I also have to laugh when someone comes in with alt in a very maneuverable plane to bounce you as you have just taken off and then they beat their chest and call you an ack hugger. Of course, these are usually the guys that like to hit you from a BnZ and then if you manage to point your plane in their general direction then they run. Pacerr and Serenity comes to mind when I think of these things.
-
LOL he just sucks, and any a20 vs a fighter is going to take any shooting solution that he can.
-
I say he needs to stick to flying his tempests and ponys and 4 hogs, so that way he has a chance of staying alive. I watched the whole flight threw snaphook and never saw him go head on. watched the O tards view and what he was talking about was a pony that shot at him from an off angle not HO.
I felt sorry for this guys team, all he did was fly over the base and watch for easy targets, never once cleared anyones six. He was just mad cause he was thinking he would vulch a base and get some kills. He got OWNED by a a20. i have several of those from the DA myself LOL. a20s are fun
-
I'm not sure he was referring to you as the "HO'er" based on the earlier text regarding the pony driver.
-
rofl
oRETARDo got owned
-
Originally posted by RELIC
I'm not sure he was referring to you as the "HO'er" based on the earlier text regarding the pony driver.
I'd have to agree with Relic on that one. Good A20 flying though :aok
-
oADONAIo = skilless squeaker that talks alot of smack ,but......wont back it up ...........just proves my point .......wtg snappy:lol
-
One of the funniest complaints is the "you HO'd me" crap. It is a fundamental tenant of ACM to neutralize your opponent. It is a very basic thought and ALL FIGHTER PILOTS LEARN IT, as a matter of fact it's probably one of the first things you learn. You may as well complain when someone lead turns you, pulls lead, or maintains his e. These are all fundamentals in ACM.
If you're defensive either by angles or numbers (4 to 1 for instance) the very first thing you want to do is take away any angles the high-threat bandit presents and eliminate his ability to gain them back through an early turn. You do this by taking him 180 degrees out (i.e., nose to nose) as close to his flightpath as possible (this takes away any turning room he has for a lead turn). Successfully done, this takes away all of his angles and you both end up with 180 degrees to go, i.e., neutral. If you're good at it you can actually threaten him (i.e., the HO) and potentially gain a lead turn (same as early turn) to gain angles on him. If you do not at least attempt to neutralize him by going 180 out then you are an idiot.
Now, on the other hand, there are those that don't even try to fight tactically. They don't even try to maneuver...just put their nose on a bandit and hold the trigger down. While this could be justified when you're outnumbered and absolutely have to cut into their numbers there are those who only do this regardless of the tactical situation.
After looking at your film I'd say a couple of things. First, there was not a single HO although there were several low-angle-off forward quarter deflection shots. Second, you did an outstanding job of maintaining your SA and neutralizing the high threat bandit and/or presenting him with other considerations (i.e., your wingmen and Ack). All of this is sound tactical doctrine and represents exactly what you would do in a RL situation....except I doubt you'd try this in an A-20. My last observation is you need to work on your gunnery. You missed three or four really good opportunities to eliminate a bandit. This is just an observation and not meant as a personal slam at all...I've been needing to go back to basic gunnery school also as I've been missing alot of the same types of opportunities and need to "re-fix" my sight picture.
-
I thought that was some mighty nice flying in an A20 :aok
-
Originally posted by RELIC
I'm not sure he was referring to you as the "HO'er" based on the earlier text regarding the pony driver.
RELIC...
I politely asked him if he ment me since I wasnt ever close to a "HO"...let alone 15 of em:). He specifically told me I had HO'd his rudder off.....then finished him with a HO? AKAK and others were commenting in this "thread" on 200. The pony was already engaged when the spit 8 joined in...to me thats not a HO either since the pony already is positioned vs a manuevering aggressor.
If I'm front quarter to front quarter I'm going to have to decide if I want to risk an exchange with the inbound spit or potentially totally hose my relative postion to the other con.
Whats funny about the whole thing is you have a pilot of marginal ability flying in a way that he forces HO's and/or face to face encounters (normally against engaged or neg E cons)...now if the other guy breaks to avoid he has the right plane and E state to capitialize....if the other guy pops him its a "HO"....
Mace I dont recall ever graduating gunnery 101:). Sadly I fly far better then I shoot most of the time (which is a testiment to how bad my gunnery is).
This really wasnt much but SA in the A-20. I put up a clip in the training section I thought relevent (an E management thread). There are a bunch of A-20 clips here (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20) for anyone who wants a starting point on "dogfighting" the bird...
-
:rofl wtg and brilliant A20 work sir.
-
Originally posted by storch
:rofl wtg and brilliant A20 work sir.
TY sir...
you know it s funny, for all the $#!^ that you and I have thrown back and forth over the years on those occasions we actually "cross props" both the action and the conduct are of high quality. With alot of the "newer" players we seem to get more "quakelike" play and more mouth thats derogatory (and as you see here outright wrong). He actually accused me repeatedly of being a liar. People comment all the time about the relative quality of the game play and pilot quality....but the "smack" quality has suffered even more.
-
Nice flying Humble.
Agreed with above posters- Adonai wasn't referring to you with the '15 HO's' comment.
Thanks for posting though, that was good flying, and you're lucky the P-51 guy's gunnery sucks. I was thinking that that must have been me flying the Pony, as I was sure I was the only one that was that bad in the P-51.
-
It's funny but the A-20 is suprisingly hard to hit and it absorbs an awful lot of punishment. Cobia38 is pretty much the "gold standard" for A-20 driving and he'd frustrate me to no end till I stopped viewing it as a "target" and treated it like a fighter. From my perspective the pony never had any shot solution....
The A-20 depends alot on relative E state and AoA for defense...basically it cant ever be flown as either s true B&Z on offesnse or true "angles" on defense. It's views are remarkably good for a "bomber" so you can get a pretty good feel for the "other" guy position wise. I posted this clip to the TA section of the BBS but it really shows how well the A-20 can "defend" against certain planes. Basically the A-20 is inferior to everything...but situationally superior to just about everything. Hog and spitty are toughest matchups....anyway this will give you a better feel for "guns defense" (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/prowling%20A-20.ahf) in an A-20. The only damage the A-20 took was from a front quarter shot that I felt it better to eat then create additional problems by avoiding it (if I even could)....
-
Originally posted by toonces3
Nice flying Humble.
Agreed with above posters- Adonai wasn't referring to you with the '15 HO's' comment.
Thanks for posting though, that was good flying, and you're lucky the P-51 guy's gunnery sucks. I was thinking that that must have been me flying the Pony, as I was sure I was the only one that was that bad in the P-51.
We went back and forth on 200 for 5 minutes...
-
Originally posted by Mace2004
One of the funniest complaints is the "you HO'd me" crap. It is a fundamental tenant of ACM to neutralize your opponent. It is a very basic thought and ALL FIGHTER PILOTS LEARN IT, as a matter of fact it's probably one of the first things you learn. You may as well complain when someone lead turns you, pulls lead, or maintains his e. These are all fundamentals in ACM.
If you're defensive either by angles or numbers (4 to 1 for instance) the very first thing you want to do is take away any angles the high-threat bandit presents and eliminate his ability to gain them back through an early turn. You do this by taking him 180 degrees out (i.e., nose to nose) as close to his flightpath as possible (this takes away any turning room he has for a lead turn). Successfully done, this takes away all of his angles and you both end up with 180 degrees to go, i.e., neutral. If you're good at it you can actually threaten him (i.e., the HO) and potentially gain a lead turn (same as early turn) to gain angles on him. If you do not at least attempt to neutralize him by going 180 out then you are an idiot.
Now, on the other hand, there are those that don't even try to fight tactically. They don't even try to maneuver...just put their nose on a bandit and hold the trigger down. While this could be justified when you're outnumbered and absolutely have to cut into their numbers there are those who only do this regardless of the tactical situation.
After looking at your film I'd say a couple of things. First, there was not a single HO although there were several low-angle-off forward quarter deflection shots. Second, you did an outstanding job of maintaining your SA and neutralizing the high threat bandit and/or presenting him with other considerations (i.e., your wingmen and Ack). All of this is sound tactical doctrine and represents exactly what you would do in a RL situation....except I doubt you'd try this in an A-20. My last observation is you need to work on your gunnery. You missed three or four really good opportunities to eliminate a bandit. This is just an observation and not meant as a personal slam at all...I've been needing to go back to basic gunnery school also as I've been missing alot of the same types of opportunities and need to "re-fix" my sight picture.
Wow, you are an AH Trainer?:huh
If I bounce a low con and they go nose up into me, I immediately go vert and might either to a flat turn if the enemy is low on E or do a spiral climb if the enemy has lots of E. I believe that the lower con feels that he has the right to ho, which is not the thinking a trainer should be spreading. Let the trainee decide that. When someone bounces me, I do not go nose up to HO them, I will defeat them with ACM using a simple overshoot.
Fighting for me isn't taking these ho shots, or "high frontal" deflection shots either. Personal choice I've made tells me a fight means I get a solution behind his 3-9 line. These ideas would be healty to spread by the AH Trainers.
I never have to hear anyone tell me "hey man, nice ho". Same type of flying also allows me to not hear "nice vulch, nice ack hugging, stick stirring, gang banging, nice running from a fight".
The golden rule seems to apply to AH as well. It'll affect yourself and also ALL of the AH community. This I believe should be taught by you Mace, since you have the power to improve the community, one individual at a time.
-
Even from the ponies POV, there was only one merge that was close to HO, certainly didn't see the other 14. On top of that, the spit spent most of his time circling looking for a "freebi", he just wasn't close enough to ANYONE else to be HOed.
Just poor ACM, to set up a good whine.
Nice flying Snappy
-
The 3,9 line exists in 3 demensions....not 2. I've heard seen this garbage from you all to often. There is not a "simple" overshoot since the overshoot is enemy dependent. As a former trainer your goal is to make the "trainee" reasonably competent. That includes proper ACM....which doesnt automatically reject any shot solution. If the other guy manuevers in such a way that he presents a legitmate solution you take it. Now the flip side is falling for a seemingly decent shot that suckers you into giving up superior position or that forces you away from your strengths (and/or your planes). Mace (and all the trainers) do a great service...dont make there job harder with some arcane interpretation of "your" rules..
-
Originally posted by humble
TY sir...
you know it s funny, for all the $#!^ that you and I have thrown back and forth over the years on those occasions we actually "cross props" both the action and the conduct are of high quality. With alot of the "newer" players we seem to get more "quakelike" play and more mouth thats derogatory (and as you see here outright wrong). He actually accused me repeatedly of being a liar. People comment all the time about the relative quality of the game play and pilot quality....but the "smack" quality has suffered even more.
yes the truly gifted smackers have departed and sadly we're stuck with....me. :D
-
Originally posted by Max
The film speaks for itself; no HO. Nice A20 flyen btw. What convergence did you have those 50's set at?
Think i've got em at 400 (could be 300). Since they're right on the nose I'm not sure how much it matters.
-
Originally posted by humble
It's funny but the A-20 is suprisingly hard to hit and it absorbs an awful lot of punishment. Cobia38 is pretty much the "gold standard" for A-20 driving and he'd frustrate me to no end till I stopped viewing it as a "target" and treated it like a fighter. From my perspective the pony never had any shot solution....
I have flown against Cobia38 in the EW or MW arena (I don't remember which although I believe it was the EW arena).
He easily out maneuvered me in his A-20 while I flew the F4F. The F4F is a remarkably agile plane but he was simply better than me in his A-20.
Another person from the EW, although I think he flies LW too, was named something like Widewing. I know it's not Widewing I know who he is but this guys name was similar. But this guy flew the F4F like it was on rails. I consider myself a decent pilot in the F4F but this guy practically never let me have a guns solution on him. And I started out with a slight alt advantage once.
Amazing.
to both Cobia38 and the unknown.
-
"OH OH OH- Who's that kid with the Oreo cookie? They forever go together it's a classic combination, when two dark delicious cookies meet the creamy smooth sensation, it's the one and only creamy-crunchy-chocolate O-r-e-O" "They keep yer milk from gettin lonely"
I couldn't help myself-:cool:
-
Originally posted by Atoon
"OH OH OH- Who's that kid with the Oreo cookie? They forever go together it's a classic combination, when two dark delicious cookies meet the creamy smooth sensation, it's the one and only creamy-crunchy-chocolate O-r-e-O" "They keep yer milk from gettin lonely"
I couldn't help myself-:cool:
....I think you should have tried harder :cool:
-
Nice flying Humble,
Not even close to a ho. Don't worry about what any of the oTARDSo have to say. Funny that guy didn't pm you on vox & :cry :cry :cry :cry
-
Originally posted by humble
The 3,9 line exists in 3 demensions....not 2. I've heard seen this garbage from you all to often. There is not a "simple" overshoot since the overshoot is enemy dependent. As a former trainer your goal is to make the "trainee" reasonably competent. That includes proper ACM....which doesnt automatically reject any shot solution. If the other guy manuevers in such a way that he presents a legitmate solution you take it. Now the flip side is falling for a seemingly decent shot that suckers you into giving up superior position or that forces you away from your strengths (and/or your planes). Mace (and all the trainers) do a great service...dont make there job harder with some arcane interpretation of "your" rules..
Humble, calm down & relax. 3,9 exists in 3 not 2? I didn't realize I said or implied 2 demensions. Garbage? An overshoot works fine. If the enemy likes to saddle up(and not take high deflec shots), he will have to slow down, then you can then go into a scissor move and wow, now you both are actually fighting each other win/lose/draw, both are having fun. How am I making their job harder by telling them to try to help improve the community?
What if senario:
If they taught everyone to vulch and avoid 1v1s, do you think they are doing their job correctly? Even zebras have color.
-
Originally posted by toonces3
Agreed with above posters- Adonai wasn't referring to you with the '15 HO's' comment.
Yes, oADONAIo was referring to snaphook when he was crying about a HO. He went on a long tirade about how snaphook should visit the TA, learn how to fly, get better looking sheep, etc.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by humble
Here you go...
Earlier tonight I was "accused" of "15" HO's by a certain someone. Told him he was mistaken and got the typical diatrab on 200. Told him i'd be happy to post the action in question.
The reality is that HO's are simply a part of the game....are there any here....you be the judge. All I see is questionable ACM on his part. Now the other part of the diatrab "ack hugger" certainly has some merit....then again I get bounced as I clear the field ack on takeoff and then get bounced in the ack as well.... I left the clip uneditied so its a bit long (5 min) but it shows the entire "action" in question.
Personally to me there is no "HO" beyond an actual merge, but even by the broadest possible terms the simple truth is that 90%+ of "HO's" simply are nothing but poor ACM by the victim followed by a whine......
Bad ACM=death=whine (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/perrequest.ahf)
He's in the "Screaming Whiners", what did you expect? Who cares if he accuses you of "HO'ing 15 times", you didn't. He managed his E piss poor and paid for it.
WTG on the nice A20 kill.
-
I ended up in a HO debate on 200 one night when a Jug turned into my N1K2 and I HO'd him. He could have just flown by and I would never have been able to catch him yet he turned right at me.
I told him he should have known to beware the HOing Niki. Got a laugh out of quite a few on 200 for that comment.
I also got called lame for ack hugging in a low 190 by a Spit XVI (a well know participant of these BBS) perched 3-4K over me and who tried to cherry-pick me every time I left the protection of the ack (numerous attempts). The lame comment came after he finally got greedy and was killed by the ack. To be fair I initiated the fight from an alt advantage but stayed in too long and got too low and slow.
Oh well. Shrug.
-
Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Humble, calm down & relax. 3,9 exists in 3 not 2? I didn't realize I said or implied 2 demensions. Garbage? An overshoot works fine. If the enemy likes to saddle up(and not take high deflec shots), he will have to slow down, then you can then go into a scissor move and wow, now you both are actually fighting each other win/lose/draw, both are having fun. How am I making their job harder by telling them to try to help improve the community?
What if senario:
If they taught everyone to vulch and avoid 1v1s, do you think they are doing their job correctly? Even zebras have color.
My "issue" is simply that its not realistic to place "dueling" restrictions on the MA enviornment or a newer player. I have no issue per se with the "HO police" {although they are wrong most of the time}...I also have no issue with forgoing "cheap" shots by mutual consent or personal choice.
If you look at it from a trainers perspective your trying to lay a good foundation. Two fo the biggest "rules" are...
1) Never abandon the possibility of attack
2) Always turn into your attacker
Everything Mace said focuses on those to elements...and is fundementally correct. At that level a guy has a long long way to go to reach your understanding and execution of ACM. If we go further and use your example....
A "bounce", to a attempted over shoot, to a lag displacement or similiar counter....to a forced rolling scissors to a flat scissor...we now have a fight that by definition has boiled down to who forces who out front...or can hit the FQ snapshot. Now if we assume different planes one will have an edge...ie hog vs 38...the hog (IMO) has a clear edge in the scissors....but the 38 can hit the FQ shot better and possibly convert to a climbing spiral fight....so if i'm the 38 I'm gonna look for a top to bottom FQ snapshot and immediatley convert to a climbing spiral against your torque hoping to claw up and out of a losing situation....
You'll find 90%+ of the "old guard" prefer the "old rules" (myself included) but the trainers job is to provide the best foundation possible for the current realities. I dont disagree in principle with what your saying...simply recognizing that trainers teach barroom fighting not queensbury rules.
The 3D comment is there because you can very often catch a guy by saddling up in the vertical from a neg e position. Pulling up and into an attacking con isnt just a "HO" move. you've posted this multiple times about the 3/9 etc...
Bat and I always fly our "DA" fights with BB's only, great fun and forces exactly what you describe. But these are "fun fights" between friends...
I'm not trying to bash you in any way, just seperating the 3 elements...
1) original "topic"
2) appropriate foundation of knowledge for a newer player
3) "enhanced" rules of engagement
-
Well I didn't witness the ch 200 tirade but is it possible he thought snaphook was the pony driver and didn't realize the A-20 was who shot him down?
Either way, it is entertaining to see a spit get killed by a buff :aok
-
Originally posted by humble
Here you go...
Earlier tonight I was "accused" of "15" HO's by a certain someone. Told him he was mistaken and got the typical diatrab on 200. Told him i'd be happy to post the action in question.
The reality is that HO's are simply a part of the game....are there any here....you be the judge. All I see is questionable ACM on his part. Now the other part of the diatrab "ack hugger" certainly has some merit....then again I get bounced as I clear the field ack on takeoff and then get bounced in the ack as well.... I left the clip uneditied so its a bit long (5 min) but it shows the entire "action" in question.
Personally to me there is no "HO" beyond an actual merge, but even by the broadest possible terms the simple truth is that 90%+ of "HO's" simply are nothing but poor ACM by the victim followed by a whine......
Bad ACM=death=whine (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/perrequest.ahf)
all i saw was a pony driver that was stupid enough to repeatedly fly into field ack...and i think it was this same one that seemed to keep trying to HO you.........as for the spit driver? whelp......no ho's there on your part. not even close. unless the he thinks the canopy shot was a ho?:rofl :rofl
nice flyin dude.......didn't know an A20 coud do that<>
john
-
Nice job Snap:aok
-
Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Wow, you are an AH Trainer?:huh
If I bounce a low con and they go nose up into me, I immediately go vert and might either to a flat turn if the enemy is low on E or do a spiral climb if the enemy has lots of E. I believe that the lower con feels that he has the right to ho, which is not the thinking a trainer should be spreading. Let the trainee decide that. When someone bounces me, I do not go nose up to HO them, I will defeat them with ACM using a simple overshoot.
Fighting for me isn't taking these ho shots, or "high frontal" deflection shots either. Personal choice I've made tells me a fight means I get a solution behind his 3-9 line. These ideas would be healty to spread by the AH Trainers.
I never have to hear anyone tell me "hey man, nice ho". Same type of flying also allows me to not hear "nice vulch, nice ack hugging, stick stirring, gang banging, nice running from a fight".
The golden rule seems to apply to AH as well. It'll affect yourself and also ALL of the AH community. This I believe should be taught by you Mace, since you have the power to improve the community, one individual at a time.
First off, I'm simply relating what is the real world norm and it's not a matter of who has what "rights" nor is as simplistic as you're presenting it. Also, remember that I differentiate between a forward quarter attack or "taking him 180 out" and a HO (a term I never heard in RL). A HO being the brainless, pipper on the target, and trigger down until one of you blows up "tactic". As I said before, neutralizing your opponent's attack is both basic and fundamental. Once you learn the basic fighter concepts, maneuvers, and philosophy it's time to move on to more advanced styles and techniques and yes, a high Pk shot such as a saddled in tracking one is usually the most efficient and desirable position but, that does not eliminate fundamental principles.
Of course, a lot also depends on the tactical situation as I mentioned in my first post. In a gentlemanly 1v1 dual you typically start from a neutral position and for go any shots prior to the first merge, that's different from the more realistic MA fights. In a many v many (or when outnumbered and defensive) your first goal is to not die. Your second goal is the reduce your adversary numbers (or find an avenue of escape). In these situations it is usually not practical (or intelligent) to set up your nice, high Pk rear quarter tracking shot because it makes you predictable. You have to deal with what you're presented and not get shot doing it, that typically means capitalizing on shots of opportunity.
Another concept that is rarely discussed has to do with the mental aspects of ACM. There is a tremendous amount to be said regarding the mind-set of you and your opponent. Just as an intelligent use of the vertical to sustain e can make a target nervous, by making him aware that you will take any shot presented to you he learns that he must stay away from your guns. This is called being aggressive and driving the fight rather than simply reacting defensively. It's fear or respect for you (and your guns) that limits his options. It's this that tends to aggravate many players in the game and leads to peevish complaints on 200. They are offensive, have the advantage (in numbers or position) and get PO'd when the target does not play his way. In these cases you're achieving exactly what you want, he's frustrated, impaitent and getting angry because you're doing something he doesn't want and will start to make stupid mistakes that will let you kill him. To summarize, when you're outnumbered and defensive take whatever shots you can when they present themselves. If this is forward quarter then by all means it is the correct and proper choice.
I'll repeat myself here in saying that I do not agree with the pure HO fighting style wherein a weak pilot simply plays point and shoot like an FPS game. Why? Mostly because it's just plain foolish. Put yourself in a RL situation and ask....would you really, by choice, put yourself in a situation where at best you have a 50% chance of dying? No, not unless you're defensive and have no choice. In AH, you do see far to many play the HO game because they don't know what else to do and there is no cost to a suicide attempt. This is not the way I train. The same goes for guys flying through massive ack, suicide porkers and bailing bombers.
As far as what you think trainers should teach, well let's just say I respectfully disagree. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect and understand what you're saying but I teach according to what I know from my own experience and training. I believe that the most enjoyment from the game comes when you put yourself into a real world mindset and ask, what would I do if those were real guns? Since I know exactly what that is, that's what I will teach.
-
Originally posted by RELIC
Well I didn't witness the ch 200 tirade but is it possible he thought snaphook was the pony driver and didn't realize the A-20 was who shot him down?
Either way, it is entertaining to see a spit get killed by a buff :aok
No, he very well knew what kind of plane snaphook was flying.
ack-ack
-
<--Came up with the nickname Oreo for um :)
-
Originally posted by Mace2004
First off, I'm simply relating what is the real world norm and it's not a matter of who has what "rights" nor is as simplistic as you're presenting it. Also, remember that I differentiate between a forward quarter attack or "taking him 180 out" and a HO (a term I never heard in RL). A HO being the brainless, pipper on the target, and trigger down until one of you blows up "tactic". As I said before, neutralizing your opponent's attack is both basic and fundamental. Once you learn the basic fighter concepts, maneuvers, and philosophy it's time to move on to more advanced styles and techniques and yes, a high Pk shot such as a saddled in tracking one is usually the most efficient and desirable position but, that does not eliminate fundamental principles.
As far as what you think trainers should teach, well let's just say I respectfully disagree. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect and understand what you're saying but I teach according to what I know from my own experience and training. I believe that the most enjoyment from the game comes when you put yourself into a real world mindset and ask, what would I do if those were real guns? Since I know exactly what that is, that's what I will teach.
I feel it's bad for the community if these ideas are being spread by an AH Trainer. I offered 1 of 100 other ideas that you could teach instead. I realize that this may be just 1 of many tactics that you teach.
At the very least, acknowledge to your trainies that they need to decide and fully understand what they are doing when they ho someone. If I want to play a game of chicken, I won't be play'n $15/month to do that.
I gather you do not like ho'n as an only way of flying. This type of thinking is flawed. Who's to say when it's okay when to ho and when to not ho. It's as simple as, never ho, and things will get better. This of course will never happen, but the point is to strive to achieve this. If someone in the future ho's me consistantly and nails me many times, I may decide to ho them back on the next encounter. Afterwards, I'll realize it was wrong and it solves nothing. He'll get a new plane and will probably ho me again in the future. Then I'll have to decide if I want to ho him or not once again. I may choose to not HO him. If I die to a cheap shot, I'll get a new plane and repeat the process again. Odds are with me that I'll acquire his "six" and kill him and when that time occurs, I'll feel a whole lot better from this event then from the retaliated ho event from earlier.
Good luck with your responsiblities as an AH Trainer.
P.S. I remember I was flying a typhoon and dove on you over the water just south of A8. A8 is on an island north of the mainland, I forget the nam e of the map. Anyways, as I dove on you, you did a reversal exactly the same way I do to others. You nailed me. I was simple amazed. On the next sortie, you did the maneuver again, this time, I was ready and denied your shot while I came over the top and killed you.
Point is that it's a great memory that I have of you. I do not think of you as a ho'er, but as the typhy pilot that fought well. You must have done something right for another person to remember a fight with you well over 1 year ago. Mace2004
-
Originally posted by Mace2004
Another concept that is rarely discussed has to do with the mental aspects of ACM. There is a tremendous amount to be said regarding the mind-set of you and your opponent. Just as an intelligent use of the vertical to sustain e can make a target nervous, by making him aware that you will take any shot presented to you he learns that he must stay away from your guns. This is called being aggressive and driving the fight rather than simply reacting defensively. It's fear or respect for you (and your guns) that limits his options. It's this that tends to aggravate many players in the game and leads to peevish complaints on 200. They are offensive, have the advantage (in numbers or position) and get PO'd when the target does not play his way. In these cases you're achieving exactly what you want, he's frustrated, impaitent and getting angry because you're doing something he doesn't want and will start to make stupid mistakes that will let you kill him. To summarize, when you're outnumbered and defensive take whatever shots you can when they present themselves. If this is forward quarter then by all means it is the correct and proper choice.
I'll repeat myself here in saying that I do not agree with the pure HO fighting style wherein a weak pilot simply plays point and shoot like an FPS game. Why? Mostly because it's just plain foolish. Put yourself in a RL situation and ask....would you really, by choice, put yourself in a situation where at best you have a 50% chance of dying? No, not unless you're defensive and have no choice. In AH, you do see far to many play the HO game because they don't know what else to do and there is no cost to a suicide attempt. This is not the way I train. The same goes for guys flying through massive ack, suicide porkers and bailing bombers.
This is probably the best thing I've read on the boards yet. This should be sticky'd up top.
Mace
-
Originally posted by Kermit de frog
P.S. I remember I was flying a typhoon and dove on you over the water just south of A8. A8 is on an island north of the mainland, I forget the nam e of the map. Anyways, as I dove on you, you did a reversal exactly the same way I do to others. You nailed me. I was simple amazed. On the next sortie, you did the maneuver again, this time, I was ready and denied your shot while I came over the top and killed you.
Point is that it's a great memory that I have of you. I do not think of you as a ho'er, but as the typhy pilot that fought well. You must have done something right for another person to remember a fight with you well over 1 year ago. Mace2004
Yes Kermit I remember that and several other fights with you. I think it was almost two years ago when I was trying out the Typhoon and had to keep reupping new ones and meeting you in yours. I was on the losing end each time but it was eye opening to meet a Typhie pilot that didn't make one pass (or best case two) and then run. More recently I also remember one where I was in a Hurri and had a sustained and very difficult fight against your Typhoon before finally getting a decent shot off. Given the relative capabilites of the two airplanes (and that I started with an e-advantage) I should not have had nearly the trouble I did. I had to go back over the film numerous times to figure out how you were able to reverse over the top so quickly in such a non-agile truck...errr...plane :-).