Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on July 15, 2007, 11:46:02 AM
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There you have it.
I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever.
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don't sugar coat it :D
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I like those little stack dolls.
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propaganda spill in isle 1 pagging boroda:noid
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Here's a good little read... http://web.mit.edu/gfischer/www/Russia.htm
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Originally posted by Hortlund
There you have it.
I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever.
Because of The Finnish War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_War) ?
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Lots of reasons.
The one that brought on this thread was this: http://www2.foi.se/rapp/foir1998.pdf
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This happened a loooong time ago Hortlund so its about time to get over it dont you think?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
This happened a loooong time ago Hortlund so its about time to get over it dont you think?
Why? It was an act of war, shooting down an ELINT aircraft over international waters killing the entire crew. And then two days later they shot down a PBY Catalina on a search and rescue mission looking for the crew. Also an act of war.
No russian has ever been held responsible over these crimes. Why the **** should we just forget about it because it was 55 years ago? The russian fighter pilot who shot the ELINT down was even awarded a medal for it. They are the scum of the earth.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Why? It was an act of war, shooting down an ELINT aircraft over international waters killing the entire crew. And then two days later they shot down a PBY Catalina on a search and rescue mission looking for the crew. Also an act of war.
No russian has ever been held responsible over these crimes. Why the **** should we just forget about it because it was 55 years ago? The russian fighter pilot who shot the ELINT down was even awarded a medal for it. They are the scum of the earth.
Just the politics Hortlund
The people are actually very nice. Just like the Sweeds! !
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Yup its sad that it happened but thats about it really. Heck we dont even hate the germans any more and they invaded us.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Yup its sad that it happened but thats about it really. Heck we dont even hate the germans any more and they invaded us.
Well, they only did it once. We've been to war with the russians what...15 times? And they cost us the eastern 2/3rds of our nation.
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What's wrong with Russia?
The music? The culture? The food? The Babooshkas?
The Ballet? The art? St.Petersburg? The T-34?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Well, they only did it once. We've been to war with the russians what...15 times? And they cost us the eastern 2/3rds of our nation.
Yes that is unfortunate. The native Americans say we took their whole nation.:O
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Originally posted by Angus
What's wrong with Russia?
The music? The culture? The food? The Babooshkas?
The Ballet? The art? St.Petersburg? The T-34?
Indeed, yes.
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Originally posted by uberhun
Yes that is unfortunate. The native Americans say we took their whole nation.:O
and now they take our money at Indian Casinos! :aok
Don't blaim Russia, blaim Communism for those actions. Thats why we tried to stop it, and thats why we whined when we tried to stop it.
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Originally posted by uberhun
Yes that is unfortunate. The native Americans say we took their whole nation.:O
Are you implying that you didnt?
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Originally posted by VooWho
Don't blaim Russia, blaim Communism for those actions. Thats why we tried to stop it, and thats why we whined when we tried to stop it.
Why would I blame communism when 100% of our wars with russia happened before the invention of communism? Its not as if russia was a peaceful utopia before the revolution.
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The russian people can hardly be blamed. They have been under the control of either maniacs, dictators or communists who sledom told their population what they were doing.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Are you implying that you didnt?
Actually I was trying to interject some humor. I guess my point is, at one time or another in history you have the conquered and the conqueror.
I assume you are refering to Putin's chest thumping about the missle shield.
Believe me it was disscused in Maine in the United States, what would be an appropriate response so Putin could save face with his people. It is all part of the One World Agenda. The real loosers here are the Russians.
they are so mirred in their own internal misfortune. Haliburton will be their soon enough to make all their problems go away. They will mine and harvest their resources and build more effcient Gulags for them.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Why would I blame communism when 100% of our wars with russia happened before the invention of communism? Its not as if russia was a peaceful utopia before the revolution.
Still those happend so long ago. Those times where different from now days. Wars were fought over different matters, mostly land or world conquer and Nationalism. France and Britain have fought each other like 15 times over many things we think is dumb to fight over today. The Romans conquered alot of the world but I don't hate the Romans for that. I don't hate the Huns who did terrible things. Every empire or nation will have its darkess days when it envovles the destruction of that nation or empire or when that nation does things we think is unhuman.
Really theres one reason why you should Russia and thats because they don't share their beautiful women. :aok
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Originally posted by VooWho
Really theres one reason why you should Russia and thats because they don't share their beautiful women. :aok
you dont visit e-bay much do you? ;)
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Originally posted by evenhaim
propaganda spill in isle 1 pagging boroda:noid
:lol
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Why? It was an act of war, shooting down an ELINT aircraft over international waters killing the entire crew. And then two days later they shot down a PBY Catalina on a search and rescue mission looking for the crew. Also an act of war.
No russian has ever been held responsible over these crimes. Why the **** should we just forget about it because it was 55 years ago? The russian fighter pilot who shot the ELINT down was even awarded a medal for it. They are the scum of the earth.
Why is it an act of war to do that and it not an act of war to try to asasinate a countries former head of state,Bomb a barracks and on several occasions try to shoot down that same countries aircraft?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Its not as if russia was a peaceful utopia before the revolution.
LOL, still bitter about the end of Swedish Empire? It's not that Swedish campaigns in 16th, 17th and 18th century were of charitable nature.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Why is it an act of war to do that and it not an act of war to try to asasinate a countries former head of state,Bomb a barracks and on several occasions try to shoot down that same countries aircraft?
Who has said that those things are not acts of war?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Who has said that those things are not acts of war?
Everyone who thinks we shouldnt have attacked Iraq.
Dont mind me. I was just thinking aloud
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
LOL, still bitter about the end of Swedish Empire? It's not that Swedish campaigns in 16th, 17th and 18th century were of charitable nature.
:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by Nilsen
The russian people can hardly be blamed. They have been under the control of either maniacs, dictators or communists who sledom told their population what they were doing.
Most of the (IN)famous leaders of that nation in the past 70-80+ years are not even Russian (Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev)
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Originally posted by VooWho
Really theres one reason why you should Russia and thats because they don't share their beautiful women. :aok
Actually you can get all the Russian women you want if you go there for a visit. I think that's why the Ruskies hate us so much. :D
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Indeed, yes.
Well as much as I disagree with Boroda in many cases, I side with him on this thread. I think Russia is quite a nation, and have given the world quite an input to many a good thing. Inventions, art, structures, and humane thoughts.
As well as bad things.
Anyway, this thread is doomed to be locked.
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Oh, and while I'm at it, the frigging SWEDES bombarded Krakow a long time ago. Wawel castle,- a beautiful site.
:furious
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borada styll not here and wth am i doing on this board at 3:09 am my time?>runs to bed to dream of hurt and boroda fist fighting
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borada styll not here and wth am i doing on this board at 3:09 am my time?>runs to bed to dream of hurt and boroda fist fighting
He probably came too close to letting slip with some state secrets, and the party took his PC away and sent him to the gulag...
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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This has happend since as well
1983: Korean airliner 'shot down'
All 269 people on board the Korean Airlines flight KAL 007 are presumed dead.
Moscow has so far only admitted to an incident with an "unidentified aircraft" in Soviet airspace.
The Boeing 747 was flying from the USA to Seoul via Anchorage. It is believed to have strayed north of its scheduled course towards the Soviet island of Sakhalin.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/1/newsid_2493000/2493469.stm
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Originally posted by JBA
This has happend since as well
1983: Korean airliner 'shot down'
All 269 people on board the Korean Airlines flight KAL 007 are presumed dead.
Moscow has so far only admitted to an incident with an "unidentified aircraft" in Soviet airspace.
The Boeing 747 was flying from the USA to Seoul via Anchorage. It is believed to have strayed north of its scheduled course towards the Soviet island of Sakhalin.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/1/newsid_2493000/2493469.stm
The Soviets thought it was an RC135. Had they thought it was actually KAL007, they definitely wouldn't of shot it down.
Kind of like us accidentally shooting down the Iranian airliner in the Persian Gulf. Tragic accidents.
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When you're a flea on a bear's butt it is not wise to provoke them by biting too hard ... or by flying slow lumbering spy planes close to their borders when the RAF and USAF are violating their airspace almost on a weekly basis with, at that time, uninterceptable spy planes. The Russians were trigger-happy during the cold war, but they were hardly unique in that respect.
Originally posted by JBA
This has happend since as well
1983: Korean airliner 'shot down'
All 269 people on board the Korean Airlines flight KAL 007 are presumed dead.
Moscow has so far only admitted to an incident with an "unidentified aircraft" in Soviet airspace.
The Boeing 747 was flying from the USA to Seoul via Anchorage. It is believed to have strayed north of its scheduled course towards the Soviet island of Sakhalin.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/1/newsid_2493000/2493469.stm
And this:
"Iran Air Flight 655 (IR655) was a commercial flight operated by Iran Air that flew from Bandar Abbas, Iran to Dubai, UAE. On Sunday July 3, 1988, towards the end of the Iran Iraq War, the aircraft flying IR655 was shot down by the U.S. Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes between Bandar Abbas and Dubai, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 38 non-Iranians and 66 children. The Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters at the time."
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Theres only one thing for it...install a new Tsar clone, annex Finland, Estonia and invade imperial russia to regain the glorious Sweeeeeedish Empire!!
Or live in peace and quiet with your life partner Norway, and invite Finland, the Baltic states and Russia to the civil union to talk out your differences...
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Viking
When you're a flea on a bear's butt it is not wise to provoke them by biting too hard ... or by flying slow lumbering spy planes close to their borders when the RAF and USAF are violating their airspace almost on a weekly basis with, at that time, uninterceptable spy planes. The Russians were trigger-happy during the cold war, but they were hardly unique in that respect.
[/b]
In international airspace we can fly whatever we want.
And you seem to be missinformed as usual, the US was not flying this route at all at the time. This because a US aircraft had been shot down in the same area less than a year before. So much for the uninterceptable US spy planes flying there on a weekly basis.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
In international airspace we can fly whatever we want.
And the Soviets could shoot you down wherever they want since they were a huge nuclear superpower while you were just an annoying speck at their borders.
Originally posted by Hortlund
And you seem to be missinformed as usual, the US was not flying this route at all at the time. This because a US aircraft had been shot down in the same area less than a year before. So much for the uninterceptable US spy planes flying there on a weekly basis.
Which shoot down would that be?
29 April 1952
A DC-4 of Air France was shot at by two MiG-15s when approaching Berlin. The aircraft was damaged and three passengers wounded.
13 June 1952
A RB-29 over the Sea of Japan, near Hokkaido.
7 October 1952
A RB-29 over the Kurile Islands.
29 November 1952
A China Air Transport C-47 on a mission to pick up agent Li Chun-ying was shot down over China. CAT pilots Snoddy and Schwartz were killed. CIA agents Richard Fectau and John Downey were captured and held in China until 1972/73. Some sources place this incident as happening a year later.
12 January 1953
A B-29 on a leaflet-dropping mission over Manchuria. The 11 crew members were taken prisoner by the Chinese and released in 1955.
18 January 1953
A P2V over Formosa Strait.
10 March 1953
Two USAF F-84Gs based in West Germany crossed into Czechoslovakian airspace, and were intercepted by MiG-15s. One was shot down.
12 March 1953.
A RAF Lincoln was shot down over East Germany.
29 July 1953
An RB-50 over the Sea of Japan. Only one of the 17 crewmembers was rescued, but there are rumours that others were taken prisoners by the USSR.
Summer 1953
It is claimed that a RAF Canberra, possibly a modified B Mk.2, suffered damage during a spy flight over the USSR. This event remains a mystery,
17 August 1953
A T-6 over the Korean demilitarized zone.
The fact is that both the RAF and USAAF (CIA) were regularly violating Soviet airspace at the time. The Canberra was all but uninterceptable at the time and regularly overflew Soviet missile complex' and testing grounds.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
In international airspace we can fly whatever we want.
And you seem to be missinformed as usual, the US was not flying this route at all at the time. This because a US aircraft had been shot down in the same area less than a year before. So much for the uninterceptable US spy planes flying there on a weekly basis. [/B]
Wasn't it Swedish state that admitted several years ago that Swedish planes were used by American intelligence on spy-missions since late-40s?...
As for "getting back your Eastern provinces" - ask Finns :D
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How many Soviet a/c were shot down when intruding into American airspace?
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
How many Soviet a/c were shot down when intruding into American airspace?
How many Soviet aircraft violated US airspace?
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Originally posted by Viking
How many Soviet aircraft violated US airspace?
Too many to list.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Too many to list.
Every such accident was in the media, wasn't it?
Ask Toad about his job in the Air Force where he was "plotting ingress routes" for your bombers. US spy planes did violate Soviet airspace routinely several times a week for decades.
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boroda finally chimed in :rofl
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Too many to list.
Then you should have no problem with mentioning a couple of incidents, or at least one. Pick one randomly if you must.
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Originally posted by Viking
And the Soviets could shoot you down wherever they want since they were a huge nuclear superpower while you were just an annoying speck at their borders.
Not without violating international law and making themselves guilty of acts of war, no.
Which shoot down would that be?
8th of April 1950, a US Navy Privateer. Crew of 10, all died. If memory serves me right, it was even shot down in Swedish airspace. Between Gotland and the mainland.
Edit. No, I remembered wrong. The incident between Gotland and the mainland was after the april shootdown, and the US aircraft was only damaged but managed to return to base. After that incident, the US stopped using the Baltic route.
The fact is that both the RAF and USAAF (CIA) were regularly violating Soviet airspace at the time.
Perhaps, but not via the Baltic. After the shoot-down above, we were the only ones doing these ELINT-runs over the Baltic.
We were the best at it too, which is why we were supplied with the latest state of the art ELINT equipment by the Americans in exchange for info.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ask Toad about his job in the Air Force where he was "plotting ingress routes" for your bombers. US spy planes did violate Soviet airspace routinely several times a week for decades.
Yep, that's what we did. And if the Soviets had ever decided to take Western Europe the way they did Eastern Poland, you would have found out how well we did that job.
As for violationg Soviet airspace: Pure BS.
The US and the rest of the international community (ICAO) recognizes a 12 mile limit. Outside 12 miles offshore you are in international airspace. We NEVER crossed inside 12 miles during my service in the late '70's. Period.
But the telling fact is how many Soviet spy planes or civilian aircraft were shot down off the coast of the United States. That number would be zero. The count for the Soviets is well up into double digits.
Pretty much says it all.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Wasn't it Swedish state that admitted several years ago that Swedish planes were used by American intelligence on spy-missions since late-40s?...
No, they were used by us. Sometimes we had members of the US armed forces as passengers on these flights, but that was not too common.
We traded information with the US and UK however. In exchange we got the latest tech, and we were held in quite high regard when it came to ELINT back in those days.
We can do stuff like that if we want, since we are a sovereign nation.
Fact remains. The DC-3 (C-47) was shot down over international waters. It had not violated soviet airspace. Two days later the PBY Catalina on search and rescue was shot down. Also over international waters. Also without ever having violated soviet airspace.
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The Merry Minuet (http://youtube.com/watch?v=qhaDtSBmIrI)
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It's okay for you to hate Russia Hortlund.
Just like it's okay for Viking to hate America.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Not without violating international law and making themselves guilty of acts of war, no.
And what does international law and acts of war mean when it is a superpower that is acting against a tiny neutral country like Sweden? Nothing. It’s not like Sweden would do anything except protest … if that.
Originally posted by Hortlund
8th of April 1950, a US Navy Privateer. Crew of 10, all died. If memory serves me right, it was even shot down in Swedish airspace. Between Gotland and the mainland.
Edit. No, I remembered wrong. The incident between Gotland and the mainland was after the april shootdown, and the US aircraft was only damaged but managed to return to base. After that incident, the US stopped using the Baltic route.
And that was ”less than a year” before the Swedish DC-3 was shot down … like you claimed?
Originally posted by Hortlund
And you seem to be missinformed as usual, the US was not flying this route at all at the time. This because a US aircraft had been shot down in the same area less than a year before. So much for the uninterceptable US spy planes flying there on a weekly basis. [/B]
So, who’s misinformed? You as usual.
And mind you I never mentioned anything about a ”Baltic route” or ”in the same area”. At the time the western allies were regularly violating international law and invading Soviet airspace, both in the east and west, with military planes that the Soviets were having problems intercepting. And then the Swedes start flying a slow easy target down their Baltic coastline. They use the opportunity to send a message to the west. International law was not respected by either side in those times.
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Originally posted by Shifty
It's okay for you to hate Russia Hortlund.
Just like it's okay for Viking to hate America.
... and for you to hate me.
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Originally posted by Viking
... and for you to hate me.
Don't hate ya Viking, in fact I'm glad you're here. I don't always like what you have to say, but I always enjoying reading it. :)
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Originally posted by Viking
And what does international law and acts of war mean when it is a superpower that is acting against a tiny neutral country like Sweden?
[/b]
The same as always.
And that was ”less than a year” before the Swedish DC-3 was shot down … like you claimed?
Nit-picking semantics now are we? The incident where the US plane was damaged was less than a year before. The privateer getting shot down was more than a year before.
So, who’s misinformed? You as usual.
Actually Viking, I know quite alot about this, while you are googling your way to knowledge. See Ive actually worked with trying to find the DC-3. Ive spent days in Swedish archives going over all the documents there is on this incident. See I used to work for a wreck-salvaging company before I went to the court, and we were looking for the DC-3 because it would be an enormous PR-win if we found what the Swedish navy had been unable to find for 50+ years.
So Ive read the documents, including the radio-logs for those days. So I know for example that after the shoot-down of the Catalina, all Swedish naval units and aircraft were ordered to shoot on sight if any soviet fighter appeared. Yes, shoot on sight, not fire if fired upon, or fire if they make any hostile movement...fire on sight. Thats how tense the situation was, and you didnt know that.
I also know where the soviet submarines were sighted off Gotland those days, and I know which destroyers found which oil-spills and where. And I know WHY the DC-3 were out that day.
Want to know why Viking?
Because the Soviets had just launched a brand new cruiser, the Sverdlov, and it was on manuevers together with a bunch of soviet fleet units off Estonia. Everyone wanted the fingerprints of the Sverdlov radar, so therefore we were out that day.
Now, back to google little tard. Check the dates to see when the Sverdlov was launched, check the internet for information about what type of ship the Sverdlov was...google your way to knowledhge and then you can come back here and pretend you knew all these things already.
And mind you I never mentioned anything about a ”Baltic route” or ”in the same area”.
No, but I did.
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Originally posted by Viking
... and for you to hate me.
well I don't hate you. I think you are a pinhead but hate is a special emotion reserved for people who's dogs poop on my path at home. :D
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Originally posted by Hortlund
There you have it.
I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exist
every nation is made out of human souls,with dreams, hopes, good and bad peoples, rich and poor,not only politicians you see on Tv
I traveled in Russia, i ussed to work with russians for many years in Europe,on the cruise lines, here in Canada and are great peoples,
You hate something you don't know, do you have a passport? before you hate,go see them, touch a russian beauty, i'm sure you'll find those poor girls in Stokholm Club also,
Your cheap troll thread post shows a narrow mind washed by politicians in the news
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6901346.stm
Well, its not just me it seems.
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Originally posted by Viking
... and for you to hate me.
No hate for you, just hope.
The hope that you slip and impale yourself on a jar of peanut butter.
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Originally posted by Shifty
Don't hate ya Viking...
Just like I don't hate America.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Nit-picking semantics now are we? The incident where the US plane was damaged was less than a year before.
Sure it was.
Originally posted by Hortlund
Actually Viking, I know quite alot about this, while you are googling your way to knowledge. See Ive actually worked with trying to find the DC-3. Ive spent days in Swedish archives going over all the documents there is on this incident. See I used to work for a wreck-salvaging company before I went to the court, and we were looking for the DC-3 because it would be an enormous PR-win if we found what the Swedish navy had been unable to find for 50+ years.
So Ive read the documents, including the radio-logs for those days. So I know for example that after the shoot-down of the Catalina, all Swedish naval units and aircraft were ordered to shoot on sight if any soviet fighter appeared. Yes, shoot on sight, not fire if fired upon, or fire if they make any hostile movement...fire on sight. Thats how tense the situation was, and you didnt know that.
I also know where the soviet submarines were sighted off Gotland those days, and I know which destroyers found which oil-spills and where. And I know WHY the DC-3 were out that day.
Want to know why Viking?
Because the Soviets had just launched a brand new cruiser, the Sverdlov, and it was on manuevers together with a bunch of soviet fleet units off Estonia. Everyone wanted the fingerprints of the Sverdlov radar, so therefore we were out that day.
Now, back to google little tard. Check the dates to see when the Sverdlov was launched, check the internet for information about what type of ship the Sverdlov was...google your way to knowledhge and then you can come back here and pretend you knew all these things already.
Funny then that you spend so much time before whining about it. I mean seeing how I saw this on the news two or three years ago when they found the plane. Your anger and indignation seems a bit ... late. Or perhaps I should say slow.
Originally posted by Hortlund
No, but I did.
Just like you to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to your opponent. It's called a straw man argument, and it's just like you lawyer scum to use such rhetorical techniques.
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I have had many friendships with folks in the Soviet Union/Russia over the years.
Back in the late 1980's/early 90's for example, my friend Gary in Minsk and I would exchange books and technical stuff. Anything from history, politics, and travel to technical information.
One book, on the history of the Kremlin, is still one of my favorites, a few more on The Great Patriotic War were very insightful.
I was impressed that he had built his entire ham station (transmitter, receiver, and antenna tuner) from scratch (many hams do). He was a fan of my home built antenna systems.
We had many on-air contacts over they years (always on 14 mHz morse code), and each contact was a blast.
We exchanged many letters as well. He was VERY concerned about the aftereffects of Chernobyl.
I have had on-air contacts with thousands of Russians over the years, many going "over the pole". The Russian accent with the watery-bubbly-echo sound of the Aurora Borealis is quite distinctive.
They seem to be more like Americans than we'd admit, and seem to be far less materialistic and closer to family and friends than we are.
The next time I'm over in that part of the world, it would be great to go. Lithuania, St. Petersburg, Moscow, Kiev, Minsk...THAT would be a nice trip. That sort of trip would not have been possible the last time I was in the neighborhood.
68ROX
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Lawyers use rethoric? Shock! Horror! The infamy!
Anyone with basic reading comprehension can easily see what I said.
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I cant be bothered to sift through and see if this has already been mentioned...
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1275332,00.html
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I've lost total respect for one Russian (on these boards). Hopefully, not many are like him.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I've lost total respect for one Russian (on these boards). Hopefully, not many are like him.
Vad? Yeah, that was totally uncalled for if its the post I'm thinking about...
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Vad? Yeah, that was totally uncalled for if its the post I'm thinking about...
I was thinking of Boroda, but I remember the "Vad Incident". Make it 2 Russians.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I was thinking of Boroda, but I remember the "Vad Incident". Make it 2 Russians.
Boroda is entertainment. ;) Think of him as a professional troll. :p
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Originally posted by 68ROX
I have had many friendships with folks in the Soviet Union/Russia over the years.
Back in the late 1980's/early 90's for example, my friend Gary in Minsk and I would exchange books and technical stuff. Anything from history, politics, and travel to technical information.
I was impressed that he had built his entire ham station (transmitter, receiver, and antenna tuner) from scratch (many hams do). He was a fan of my home built antenna systems.
We had many on-air contacts over they years (always on 14 mHz morse code), and each contact was a blast.
68ROX
:noid
SPY!!! GET HIM!!
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Lawyers use rethoric? Shock! Horror! The infamy!
It is expected from such dishonest scum.
Originally posted by Hortlund
Anyone with basic reading comprehension can easily see what I said.
Yes, anyone can…
Originally posted by Viking
When you're a flea on a bear's butt it is not wise to provoke them by biting too hard ... or by flying slow lumbering spy planes close to their borders when the RAF and USAF are violating their airspace almost on a weekly basis with, at that time, uninterceptable spy planes.
And then you add the “this route” and “flying there” and call me “missinformed” (sic.) as if it was part of my argument:
Originally posted by Hortlund
And you seem to be missinformed as usual, the US was not flying this route at all at the time. This because a US aircraft had been shot down in the same area less than a year before. So much for the uninterceptable US spy planes flying there on a weekly basis.
Classic straw man argumentation … textbook even. Tell me Mr. I’m-three-years-late-with-my-outrage, does it take an effort being so obvious?
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This is amazing...
I go away for a few days, I come back and all the sudden I'm: "The scum of the Earth".
There are worse things than being hated, I suppose.
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Lol, not all lawyers are scum ;) Only those who use fallacious rhetoric ... like Hortlund here.
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Hortlund, you are playing dangerous game. I tryed to post a list of soviet planes (including civilian) downed by USA and NATO scince the WW2. That topic was immediately deleted. So, you must understand, that you are talking only about 2 planes. I can add many others. But some people here will not give me a choice for a fitting answer.
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Originally posted by Estel
I tryed to post a list of soviet planes (including civilian) downed by USA and NATO scince the WW2. That topic was immediately deleted.
Please post such a list again. I'd really like to see a list of Soviet planes, including civilian, that were shot down by USA/NATO while flying in International Airspace.
I don't remember seeing your last one, but I seriously doubt that posting a list would be deleted.
What else did you post along with the list?
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Originally posted by Toad
Please post such a list again. I'd really like to see a list of Soviet planes, including civilian, that were shot down by USA/NATO while flying in International Airspace.
I don't remember seeing your last one, but I seriously doubt that posting a list would be deleted.
What else did you post along with the list?
There was nothing else. Model, people onboard, date and place of accident. Topic was deleted in few hours. I posted it as an answer for a topic where was discussion about Iranian passenger jet shooted by Viskonsin.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I was thinking of Boroda, but I remember the "Vad Incident". Make it 2 Russians.
Thank you, it is honor for me.
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Originally posted by ghi
every nation is made out of human souls,with dreams, hopes, good and bad peoples, rich and poor,not only politicians you see on Tv
I traveled in Russia, i ussed to work with russians for many years in Europe,on the cruise lines, here in Canada and are great peoples,
You hate something you don't know, do you have a passport? before you hate,go see them, touch a russian beauty, i'm sure you'll find those poor girls in Stokholm Club also,
Your cheap troll thread post shows a narrow mind washed by politicians in the news
Amen to that.
There is good people everywhere, as well as there can be bad anywhere.
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Originally posted by Estel
There was nothing else.
Well, I'd like to see it.
Can you post it again?
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Originally posted by Estel
There was nothing else. Model, people onboard, date and place of accident. Topic was deleted in few hours. I posted it as an answer for a topic where was discussion about Iranian passenger jet shooted by Viskonsin.
I remember that thread. I think someone posted pictures from the Iranian rescue operation showing bodies in the water and also later in a hangar IIRC. Skuzzy don't like things like that.
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I would love to see the list as well, I would be shocked if a simple list like that would be removed.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
There you have it.
I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever.
Russians don't hate Swedes.
Most of us don't know where are they and who they are.
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On June 20, 1937 a Soviet plane flew over the N pole, penetrated US airspace, and got as far a Vancouver, Washington.
The crew and airplane were quickly released into the USSR custody.
No one killed, no shots fired.
Now when we send a U2 across Soviet airspace on May 1, 1960 is the favor returned?
No. Shoot it down, imprison the pilot...
Russian bastiges.
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Originally posted by Vad
Russians don't hate Swedes.
Most of us don't know where are they and who they are.
:aok :aok :aok :aok
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
On June 20, 1937 a Soviet plane flew over the N pole, penetrated US airspace, and got as far a Vancouver, Washington.
The crew and airplane were quickly released into the USSR custody.
No one killed, no shots fired.
Now when we send a U2 across Soviet airspace on May 1, 1960 is the favor returned?
No. Shoot it down, imprison the pilot...
Russian bastiges.
lol you serious?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
On June 20, 1937 a Soviet plane flew over the N pole, penetrated US airspace, and got as far a Vancouver, Washington.
The crew and airplane were quickly released into the USSR custody.
No one killed, no shots fired.
Now when we send a U2 across Soviet airspace on May 1, 1960 is the favor returned?
No. Shoot it down, imprison the pilot...
Russian bastiges.
Piss on Russia, that's my new motto.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Piss on Russia, that's my new motto.
This is why I like Karaya!!!!
:aok
Mac
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Soo Holden. Are seriously sayng that a russian airplane that penetrated the US in 1937 is in anyway similar to a US SPYPLANE flying over Russia during the Cold War?
Has to be the worst comparison ever
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So Nilsen, you saying that unarmed sightseeing flights should be shot down, and the pilots put on a show trial and imprisoned?
Russian bastiges
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1937 and 1960 = veeeery different time.
1937 no cold war and no missiles. Flying that route alone was an achievement.
1960 Secially built spyplane shot down by a specially built missile.
So later, - build a Blackbird for the job :D
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I guess nobody recognizes humor anymore.
>edit>Maybe it's just those from a Scandanavian line.... we can only hope the virus has not permeated the entire human genome...
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So Nilsen, you saying that unarmed sightseeing flights should be shot down, and the pilots put on a show trial and imprisoned?
Russian bastiges
yup :D
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, I'd like to see it.
Can you post it again?
I will try to regain information. On success, I'll post it. And.... I like your trust into somebody's decency.
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Originally posted by Viking
I remember that thread. I think someone posted pictures from the Iranian rescue operation showing bodies in the water and also later in a hangar IIRC. Skuzzy don't like things like that.
Perhaps you are right. Anyway, scince that time I'm not sure, that some people here are interested in real information and facts. Sure it's my own opinion and I'll be very glad if I'm mistaken.
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Well, Estel, I was in the reconnaissance business from 74-80. I have never heard of a Soviet aircraft being shot down in International airspace by the USA.
I can't find any such incidents now using Google either, so I look forward to you providing incidents with dates that I might research.
I have found an incident or two like this:
“On February 27, 1974, a Soviet AN-24 reconnaissance aircraft was low on fuel and made an emergency landing at Gambell Airfield in Alaska. The crew remained on the aircraft overnight. They were provided space heaters and food. They were refueled the next day and they departed. The crew was not detained and the aircraft was not detained.
And there are an awful lot of incidents like this:
22 June 1955 A US Navy P2V-5 Neptune of VP-9 (BuNo 131515), flying a patrol mission from Kodiak Alaska, was attacked over the Bering Strait by two Soviet MiG-15 studmuffinots. The aircraft crash-landed on St. Lawrence Island after an engine was set afire. Of the eleven crew members, including pilot Richard F. Fischer, co-pilot David M. Lockhard, Donald E. Sonnek, Thaddeus Maziarz, Martin E. Berg, Eddie Benko, David Assard and Charles Shields, four sustained injuries due to gunfire and six were injured during the landing. The USA demanded $724,947 in compensation; the USSR finally paid half this amount.
July 1960 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet (53-4281) of the 38th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over the Barents Sea was downed by Soviet pilot Vasili Poliakov, flying a MiG-15 studmuffinot. Co-pilot Bruce Olmstead and navigator John McKone survived and were taken captive. The pilot, Bill Palm and ELINT operators Eugene Posa, Oscar Goforth and Dean Phillips were killed. Olmstead and McKone were released from Soviet captivity on January 25th, 1961. Bill Palm's remains were returned to the US on July 25, 1960. Eugene Posa's remains were recovered by the Soviets, but never returned to the US.
1967 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet of the 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over Iran, near the Soviet border, was reported to have been hit by a Soviet surface-to-air missile. The damaged aircraft managed to reach the mountains north of Tehran, but crashed before being able to land, killing the entire crew.
And these are just three of many incidents.
So I look forward to your counterpoint.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, Estel, I was in the reconnaissance business from 74-80. I have never heard of a Soviet aircraft being shot down in International airspace by the USA.
I can't find any such incidents now using Google either, so I look forward to you providing incidents with dates that I might research.
Toad, can you also find _any_ accident when Soviet airforce attacked, bombed and strafed any targets on the US territory, like USAF did in 1950 in Far East?
I understand Estel, it's useless to post any real information here. There are some people who'll mind it, but the sound majority will ignore anything that contradicts Party Line and History Channel's "history for dummies" POV, they'll prefer to discuss if we have AH subscription and why are we allowed to post on this board.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, can you also find _any_ accident when Soviet airforce attacked, bombed and strafed any targets on the US territory, like USAF did in 1950 in Far East?
That's a bit too cryptic; are you talking about the Korean War?
What is really very easy to find is incidents of the Soviets shooting down military aircraft. No warm food and space heaters like your AN-24 recon bird got in Alaska from you guys; only hot lead.
Cold War Shootdowns (http://www.aiipowmia.com/koreacw/cw1.html)
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boroda... just curious..
Why do you think that the rest of the world is lying to you but that anything the commies put out was the gospel truth? Well... maybe not gospel but.. you know what I mean.
Why were the commies so truthful do you think? Were they simply so moral or was it that the west was jealous? Were your people locked in and not permitted to know of the outside world for their own good lest they turn into brainwashed robots like the entire rest of the world?
I have to ask this too... why did you have walls to keep your people in? Why did you have to have KGB agents with every athlete and diplomat that ever visited the US? was it to keep them from smuggling Americans back in their suitcase or to keep em from defecting?
Why would you believe anything a government who locked it's people in and censored all outside news told you?
lazs
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I know more than a few russians. here in miami they have moved into the town of el portal and driven the haitians almost complete out of there, not an easy thing to do. haitians are pretty tough.
I get a big kick out of the russians. many of them work as handymen on the estates of the wealthy people who live on waterfront homes in miami beach which allows me quite a bit of time to interact with them during the course of the day when I'm able to be on an installation site.
on the whole I like the russians, they are resourceful and very capable in a mcguyver sort of way.
when I asked one guy who I have become friends with why so many of his countrymen are so practically talented, so adept at solving real world problems with what ever is at hand his answer was that in soviet union if you can't fix something with nothing then maybe you will die.
russians are cool but they generally drink like fish and lie like rugs. I like them just the same and we are better for having them here. I'm surprised the former soviet union isn't empty now.
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... just curious..
Why do you think that the rest of the world is lying to you but that anything the commies put out was the gospel truth? Well... maybe not gospel but.. you know what I mean.
Nobody's perfect. I said it many times before: when I see two points of view on one event, one - Western and second - Soviet, I choose the Soviet one if it doesn't contradict common sense. I hope you understand it. And if you dig deep enough - you'll find reasonable pragmatic explanation for almost all your questions.
Commies told a lot of bull**** too, but now they are gone, and I see them as a part of our national history. They did some bad things but they did some good things too. At least they showed an alternative, different way of life, not better or worse, just different. What I try to do is to show that there is more then one "right" way.
About "keeping people in": people who didn't work for defense and didn't get good education (for free) could easily leave the country. I talked to a guy in Australia who spent his vacation there in 1976 and then applied for emigration and moved in 1977. Contradicts your "everyone knows that", doesn't it?
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Forgot to say that we were taught not to hate any other nation. There were no Soviet movies like Rambo-III when Soviet people fought Americans (there was one, but there Soviet marines captured an American missile base in the Pacific with it's commander went insane and wanted to start a nuclear war, the base then got burnt by B-52s). At school we were taught about American democratic system and it's advantages, no political "party" crap.
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Toad: That was one heck of a link there ;)
And Boroda:
"- Nobody's perfect. I said it many times before: when I see two points of view on one event, one - Western and second - Soviet, I choose the Soviet one if it doesn't contradict common sense. I hope you understand it. And if you dig deep enough - you'll find reasonable pragmatic explanation for almost all your questions. "
Well you choose to call the Molotov-Ribbentropf pact a LIE not long ago.
Same goes with incidents like Katyn.
But
"Commies told a lot of bull**** too, but now they are gone, and I see them as a part of our national history."
A learning curve?????
Aside from that, there is good people everywhere and possibly bad people anywhere....and a regime may not necessary reflect the truth about it's population. (That one was for Boroda basically and aimed at Lazs :D)
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Originally posted by Angus
Well you choose to call the Molotov-Ribbentropf pact a LIE not long ago.
Same goes with incidents like Katyn.
Calling a Non-aggression Treaty a "lie"?! Where? When?!
About Katyn: I don't see any positive proof that my country did it. See Burdenko's commission 1944 report. Poles were shot from German weapons at the location where kids recreation camp was in 1940. I don't know who did it and if it was Soviet crime - then I want to say I am sorry. I think it's clear.
Originally posted by Angus
But
"Commies told a lot of bull**** too, but now they are gone, and I see them as a part of our national history."
A learning curve?????
Do you seriously expect me to post obvious bull**** here? It's called "critical thinking", if you didn't know.
My learning curve is going the other way, from laughing at "commie propaganda" to bitter understanding that in many cases they were right.
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Originally posted by Boroda
My learning curve is going the other way, from laughing at "commie propaganda" to bitter understanding that in many cases they were right.
Then you need to do another 180.
The commies were never right, its just that the dolts in charge of russia atm prolly are even worse.
Worse than bad does not make the bad good.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Then you need to do another 180.
Let me decide it myself, I have seen both systems and probably have more experience.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Let me decide it myself, I have seen both systems and probably have more experience.
Yes, im sure communism was better for you than what you have now. But the system you have now is really bad, so why wont you hope for a working one instead of going back in time?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Yes, im sure communism was better for you than what you have now. But the system you have now is really bad, so why wont you hope for a working one instead of going back in time?
You don't understand, I don't want to go back in time.
About current situation: I mostly agree with Putin's foreign policy, especially when he finally does something instead of just talking. But domestic affairs are severely ****ed up and most of the ministers deserve to be hanged on lamp-posts. There are some good signs, but unfortunately they will lead to another "transition period".
Commies were not worse, they were different, and there is no way back. And at least current regime is not as outrageously hostile as Yeltsyn's. And what I like about modern Russia is a degree of personal freedom.
Sometimes I think of posting some everyday observations here, but unfortunately it will sound like reports from alien civilization for you.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sometimes I think of posting some everyday observations here, but unfortunately it will sound like reports from alien civilization for you.
No ****?
Dear diary.
Today everyone in Moscow got a free flatscreen TV by comrade Putin. He has also eradicated all diseases, thanks to the selfless efforts by our scientists. I shall watch Al Jazeera on this new TV, because everyone also got free satellite-tv access. I hope I can catch the Iraqi-special, filled with news on how the freedom loving partisan-heros of Iraq try to defend all Iraqis against the bloodthirsty americans and their indiscriminate killing of civilians using car-bombs and undercover CIA-agents posing as Iraqis.
Unfortunately there was a car accident outside my house on Nevinskij prospect, but it was caused by american CIA agents who are trying to disrupt our peaceful way of life here in the workers paradise. We lynched the CIA-agent, despite his claims he was an ordinary russian. What fool..his breath smelled of alcohol, and everyone knows that we russians never drink ourselves intoxicated.
In history class today our teachers told us about the great war of liberation our troops fought in Prague in 1967, when american CIA agents had infiltrated the city and held everyone hostage. Our troops were greeted by thousands of happy citizens who threw flowers before our liberating heros. Tomorrow we will learn about when our forces of freedom liberated Hungary.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
No ****?
Dear diary.
Today everyone in Moscow got a free flatscreen TV by comrade Putin. He has also eradicated all diseases, thanks to the selfless efforts by our scientists. I shall watch Al Jazeera on this new TV, because everyone also got free satellite-tv access. I hope I can catch the Iraqi-special, filled with news on how the freedom loving partisan-heros of Iraq try to defend all Iraqis against the bloodthirsty americans and their indiscriminate killing of civilians using car-bombs and undercover CIA-agents posing as Iraqis.
Unfortunately there was a car accident outside my house on Nevinskij prospect, but it was caused by american CIA agents who are trying to disrupt our peaceful way of life here in the workers paradise. We lynched the CIA-agent, despite his claims he was an ordinary russian. What fool..his breath smelled of alcohol, and everyone knows that we russians never drink ourselves intoxicated.
In history class today our teachers told us about the great war of liberation our troops fought in Prague in 1967, when american CIA agents had infiltrated the city and held everyone hostage. Our troops were greeted by thousands of happy citizens who threw flowers before our liberating heros. Tomorrow we will learn about when our forces of freedom liberated Hungary.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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So, you asked for it:
"
4 September 1950 A US Navy F4U-4B Corsair of VF-53, piloted by Ensign Edward V. Laney, shot down a Soviet Naval Aviation Douglas A-20 Box over the Yellow Sea
8 September 1950 Two US Air Force F-80 Shooting Stars strafed a Soviet airfield near Vladivostok.
27 July 1953 An Aeroflot Il-12 Coach was shot down by US Air Force F-86F Sabre pilot Ralph Parr, near Kanggye, North Korea. All 21 people on board were killed.
11 May 1966 South Korea Air Force F-5s intercepted a Soviet An-8 Camp flying near North Korea. This An-8 was likely an environmental monitoring aircraft, taking air samples from the nuclear test conducted by the People's Republic of China two days earlier.
"
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Here is a list of all aircraft shot down during the cold war. I guess the Soviets "won" this ugly portion of the war, nothing to be proud of....
http://www.silent-warriors.com/shootdown_list.html
Regarding Estels incidents, only 3 were "shot down", one of those incidents (F4U pilots) occurred when a Soviet plane got too close to a carrier group, and the other incident (Airfiield) was a mistake due to navigational error and poor judgement. The air force commander was relieved, the pilot were disciplined, and the United States offered to pay damages.
Now, read of all the shot down western aircraft at Silent Warriors.
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Thanks.
I'll start researching those. Are they the only ones you could find?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Now, read of all the shot down western aircraft at Silent Warriors.
For some reason, this one made me laugh out loud.
1 or 2 December 1946 A US Army Air Force A-26 Invader piloted by George A. Curry of the US Army Air Force 45th Reconnaissance Squadron, Furth, Germany, became lost in heavy, unfavorable weather while on a mission to Amsterdam, Netherlands, and eventually landed near the village of Egyek, northeast of Budapest, Hungary.
I think it was the combination of
Reconnaissance squadron,
flying from Germany to the Netherlands...
ending up in Hungary.
I mean...compass anyone?
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Originally posted by Estel
So, you asked for it:
"
4 September 1950 A US Navy F4U-4B Corsair of VF-53, piloted by Ensign Edward V. Laney, shot down a Soviet Naval Aviation Douglas A-20 Box over the Yellow Sea
8 September 1950 Two US Air Force F-80 Shooting Stars strafed a Soviet airfield near Vladivostok.
27 July 1953 An Aeroflot Il-12 Coach was shot down by US Air Force F-86F Sabre pilot Ralph Parr, near Kanggye, North Korea. All 21 people on board were killed.
11 May 1966 South Korea Air Force F-5s intercepted a Soviet An-8 Camp flying near North Korea. This An-8 was likely an environmental monitoring aircraft, taking air samples from the nuclear test conducted by the People's Republic of China two days earlier.
"
4 to almost a 100. You have been served, now move along.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
No ****?
Dear diary.
Today everyone in Moscow got a free flatscreen TV by comrade Putin. He has also eradicated all diseases, thanks to the selfless efforts by our scientists. I shall watch Al Jazeera on this new TV, because everyone also got free satellite-tv access. I hope I can catch the Iraqi-special, filled with news on how the freedom loving partisan-heros of Iraq try to defend all Iraqis against the bloodthirsty americans and their indiscriminate killing of civilians using car-bombs and undercover CIA-agents posing as Iraqis.
Unfortunately there was a car accident outside my house on Nevinskij prospect, but it was caused by american CIA agents who are trying to disrupt our peaceful way of life here in the workers paradise. We lynched the CIA-agent, despite his claims he was an ordinary russian. What fool..his breath smelled of alcohol, and everyone knows that we russians never drink ourselves intoxicated.
In history class today our teachers told us about the great war of liberation our troops fought in Prague in 1967, when american CIA agents had infiltrated the city and held everyone hostage. Our troops were greeted by thousands of happy citizens who threw flowers before our liberating heros. Tomorrow we will learn about when our forces of freedom liberated Hungary.
What a m***n, pardon my French... The only good thing is that Hortlund didn't change in that several years I didn't see him posting here.
It's exactly what i meant.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Regarding Estels incidents, only 3 were "shot down", one of those incidents (F4U pilots) occurred when a Soviet plane got too close to a carrier group, and the other incident (Airfiield) was a mistake due to navigational error and poor judgement. The air force commander was relieved, the pilot were disciplined, and the United States offered to pay damages.
Ah, we forgot multiple MiGs shot down like turkeys flying over US CV groups - poor guys were not clear to fire... This list is incomplete.
About Sukhaya Rechka airfield - please give me sources about commander "disciplined", and "compensation offered". Navigational error my ass!
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Originally posted by Boroda
Commies told a lot of bull**** too, but now they are gone, and I see them as a part of our national history. They did some bad things but they did some good things too. At least they showed an alternative, different way of life, not better or worse, just different. What I try to do is to show that there is more then one "right" way.
Yer still spewing bull**** and I have YET to see ONE GOOD THING EVOLVE FROM COMMUNISM, except mass killings, and glorified murder.
Remember the Soviet slaughter of Poles at Katyn!!! (It wasn't the Germans)
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Yer still spewing bull**** and I have YET to see ONE GOOD THING EVOLVE FROM COMMUNISM, except mass killings, and glorified murder.
Space travel is OK?
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Remember the Soviet slaughter of Poles at Katyn!!! (It wasn't the Germans)
I suppose you have been there?
So predictable, no fun :(
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Originally posted by Boroda
Space travel is OK?
I suppose you have been there?
So predictable, no fun :(
Space travel? Starting with the forced landing of the B-29 in which you wrongly imprisoned it's occupants for over 10 days while you stole designs. The B-29 was still superior.
Space Travel? Who stepped on the Moon first? Everything else is a distant second. Wait, your shotty "Space Program" still hasn't been there.
Space Travel? Only thing associated that you have shown the world, are the "Annual Russian Ejector Seat Demonstrations".
Katyn? I've read more on the subject than yourself Boroda. You can deny the Gorbachev "admission" from the papers. Plus, there are 100's of other sources of which I have read. Why? I have a Polish last name.
BTW, your signature does still NOT meet the AH BBS guidelines of 5 lines or less.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
BTW, your signature does still NOT meet the AH BBS guidelines of 5 lines or less.
Go report it. In that case I promise to remove the "with respect" line.
Sorry guys, I have to walk my bear now. See you tomorrow!
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Originally posted by Toad
Thanks.
I'll start researching those. Are they the only ones you could find?
These were officialy complained. Sure, this list don't include clean combat losses and doubt cases when gunfire wasn't confirmed or it was a clean navigational error.
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*8 September 1950 Two US Air Force F-80 Shooting Stars strafed a Soviet airfield near Vladivostok.
I think it is beneficial to post as much as we can find on these incidents. Also, note that you found 4 incidents on that list of Soviet aircraft being shot down. There are probably 60 incidents (or more) of Soviets shooting down other country's aircraft.
Even as the JCS and the NSC wrestled with their guidelines, Gen. Stratemeyer was already taking action, issuing orders against border violations on July 3 and August 14. Errors nevertheless occurred, notably on August 27 when a pair of Mustang pilots strafed the Antung airfield (just across the Yalu River from Sinuiju) and on September 22 when a B-29 crew mistakenly bombed the Antung marshaling yard. Incensed by these blunders, the FEAF leader reiterated that under no conditions would the borders be violated. The most serious violation, however, occurred on October 8.
That day a quartet of 49th FBG pilots were scheduled to sweep the Chongjin airfield in northeast Korea. Two of the fliers, including the flight leader, had to abort after experiencing mechanical problems, but the remaining pair pressed on. Instead of hitting the Chongjin field, however, they hit an airfield near Vladivostok. Seeing the field filled with "P-39" aircraft, the two men proceeded to strafe them. Several of these planes were destroyed or damaged before the Americans departed. Soviet political reaction was swift, and the United States apologized for the gaffe. Sadly, this incident resulted in the group commander being relieved, but a court-martial did not convict the errant pilots. Nonetheless, they did no further flying in Korea.
The US admitted it was a mistake and fired the group commander. There are a very few incidents on the list where the Soviet Union admitted any mistake after shooting down military/civilian aircraft and I don't remember any Soviet officers getting fired. Maybe you can shed some light on that.
*4 September 1950 A US Navy F4U-4B Corsair of VF-53, piloted by Ensign Edward V. Laney, shot down a Soviet Naval Aviation Douglas A-20 Box over the Yellow Sea
Might as well post the whole thing, eh Estel?
4 September 1950 A US Navy F4U-4B Corsair of VF-53, piloted by Ensign Edward V. Laney, shot down a Soviet Naval Aviation Douglas A-20 Box over the Yellow Sea, southeast of the Soviet-occupied Port Arthur Naval Base in China and west of the North Korean coast.
Laney was one of a four-ship Combat Air Patrol from the carrier USS Valley Forge (part of Task Force 77), which was protecting US Navy air activity against North Korea not long before the Inchon landings.
The A-20 was one of two belonging to the Port Arthur-based 36th Mine-Torpedo Aviation Regiment of the Red Banner Pacific Fleet, apparently sent out on an armed reconnaissance mission. A-20s had been supplied in quantity to the Soviets on Lend-Lease during World War 2, and this unit had had extensive experience during the war as torpedo bombers .
The Corsairs encountered the two A-20s about 40 nautical miles from the Chinese coast. One A-20 turned back, but the other pressed on. As the Corsairs descended, the top turret gunner on the A-20 was observed to open fire.
Richard E. Downs led Laney on a firing pass, and Laney hit the A-20 with his 20mm cannon. The Soviet aircraft then crashed into the sea. The US recovered the body of one Soviet crewman, later identified as that of Genaddiy Mishin, the copilot. The other two bodies, those of Senior Lt. Karpol, the aircraft commander, and Sgt. A. Makaganov, the gunner, were never found. Mishin's body was returned to the Soviets in 1956.
So in a war zone area during the Korean war a Soviet A-20 that opened fire got shot down. I think that is pretty much self-explanatory.
*27 July 1953 An Aeroflot Il-12 Coach was shot down by US Air Force F-86F Sabre pilot Ralph Parr, near Kanggye, North Korea. All 21 people on board were killed.
Again, let's post the entire statement:
27 July 1953 An Aeroflot Il-12 Coach was shot down by US Air Force F-86F Sabre pilot Ralph Parr, near Kanggye, North Korea, shortly before the armistice went into effect. All 21 people on board were killed. The Soviets claimed that the aircraft was actually over the People's Republic of China when shot down.
Once again, flying in a war zone during a hot war in a type of aircraft used by the enemy.
*11 May 1966 South Korea Air Force F-5s intercepted a Soviet An-8 Camp flying near North Korea. This An-8 was likely an environmental monitoring aircraft, taking air samples from the nuclear test conducted by the People's Republic of China two days earlier.
"
I can't find anything more on this. It would be nice to have a more specific location but on the surface there appears to be no good reason for the South Koreans to have shot it down.
Sort of like most of the Soviet shoot-downs of military/civilian aircraft.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ah, we forgot multiple MiGs shot down like turkeys flying over US CV groups - poor guys were not clear to fire... This list is incomplete.
About Sukhaya Rechka airfield - please give me sources about commander "disciplined", and "compensation offered". Navigational error my ass!
It's in the link I provided. Reading is FUN-duh-mental.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Regarding Estels incidents, only 3 were "shot down", one of those incidents (F4U pilots) occurred when a Soviet plane got too close to a carrier group, and the other incident (Airfiield) was a mistake due to navigational error and poor judgement. The air force commander was relieved, the pilot were disciplined, and the United States offered to pay damages.
Now, read of all the shot down western aircraft at Silent Warriors.
Overflying was a normal practice for both sides. But this one was the only when the fire was opened.
About the airfield. This could not be an error. And it's known for both sides too. Because of this, USA made payments. And it was one of the few incidents, when USA confirmed combat attack and agreed for satisfaction.
Anyway, USA have an absolute leadership in shooting down passenger planes. Sure, here we exclude accidents when the reason was "human factor". For example, both sides have accidents when interceptor hitted passenger plane on aerobatics manuevering.
The navigational error has it's place. And there were at least 8 such incidents from both sides. In all of them, crews and planes were returned. And crews wasn't accused.
I understand, that many of you want to see us as an evil. But. Look at the list on that site and you'll see, that all other planes (excluding KAL007 and previous one with 2 killed onboard) we shot down, were military or recon crafts. And all of them (maybe except 2 or 3) were downed in our airspace. Or over our territory.
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Originally posted by Estel
I understand, that many of you want to see us as an evil. But. Look at the list on that site and you'll see, that all other planes (excluding KAL007 and previous one with 2 killed onboard) we shot down, were military or recon crafts. And all of them (maybe except 2 or 3) were downed in our airspace. Or over our territory.
That was Toad's point. Thank you for admitting it. We gave you warmth and food and sent you on your way (escorted out of the area, as you can see by many Bear patrols with F-15's escorting them) You on the other hand, you killed or imprisoned our pilots.
Again, thanks for stepping up and admitting it.
Old Soviet Union=Evil
New Russia=Okay in my book, just corrupt from residual Old Soviet Union officials.
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boroda... now I am confused... you mean that soviets could just get a passport and wave to the border guards as they crossed into other countries?
why even have walls like in berlin? to keep out the west perhaps? so that they wouldn't steal soviet automaking secrets perhaps?
Are you saying that all the people who risked their lives to get out of your country... that every one of em was a rocket scientist?
I take offense at you saying that communism is an alternative. It is dehumanizing slavery... it is hive mentality not suited for humans. It is the most disgusting political tyranny ever devised. I would kill anyone who tried to force it on me.
lazs
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Originally posted by Toad
*4 September 1950 A US Navy F4U-4B Corsair of VF-53, piloted by Ensign Edward V. Laney, shot down a Soviet Naval Aviation Douglas A-20 Box over the Yellow Sea
Might as well post the whole thing, eh Estel?
So in a war zone area during the Korean war a Soviet A-20 that opened fire got shot down. I think that is pretty much self-explanatory.
You forgot one thing. War zone has borders within the borders of the countries involved into the war. International waters that time wasn't war zone. Thus because, crew opened fire _after_ first unsuccesful attack from F4U. And I think, that this is pretty self-explanatory too. Isn't it?
Originally posted by Toad
*27 July 1953 An Aeroflot Il-12 Coach was shot down by US Air Force F-86F Sabre pilot Ralph Parr, near Kanggye, North Korea. All 21 people on board were killed.
Again, let's post the entire statement:
Once again, flying in a war zone during a hot war in a type of aircraft used by the enemy.
Shooting down passenger plane wich was identified as a passenger and not enemy is ok? If yes, don't claim us in KAL007 downing. Else, it looks like double standart. One side can shoot passenger jet on official route in international waters (Iraninan jet) and others can not.
Originally posted by Toad
*11 May 1966 South Korea Air Force F-5s intercepted a Soviet An-8 Camp flying near North Korea. This An-8 was likely an environmental monitoring aircraft, taking air samples from the nuclear test conducted by the People's Republic of China two days earlier.
"
I can't find anything more on this. It would be nice to have a more specific location but on the surface there appears to be no good reason for the South Koreans to have shot it down.
Yes. The reason is not clear. Maybe the crew just was in wrong time in wrong place. Anyway.
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Boroda, you're being swamped. I will bring up one point here, but others later. This one is not a nice one for you, some others are.
From you:
"My learning curve is going the other way, from laughing at "commie propaganda" to bitter understanding that in many cases they were right.".
I think it's rather going from commie stuff being perfect to that in many cases they were wrong.
??
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
That was Toad's point. Thank you for admitting it. We gave you warmth and food and sent you on your way (escorted out of the area, as you can see by many Bear patrols with F-15's escorting them) You on the other hand, you killed or imprisoned our pilots.
Again, thanks for stepping up and admitting it.
Old Soviet Union=Evil
New Russia=Okay in my book, just corrupt from residual Old Soviet Union officials.
You are getting too far. Let me explain. Your planes overflyed OUR land. And OUR TERRITORY. They did it all of the time. And there was ONLY ONE incident when Tu-95 overflyed USA land. BTW around Langley AFB. Do you see the difference?
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Originally posted by Estel
I understand, that many of you want to see us as an evil.
That's not what I want to see.
I would like to see you all admit that what you did in these incidents was completely and unnecessarily brutal. It happened over and over and over again.
Again the point is your recon aircraft landing in Alaska, the plane being fueled, the crew fed and kept warm and allowed to go on their way the next day.
Compare that incident to what the Soviet Union did to aircraft in international airspace. Those crews were murdered. They were not violating your airspace, they were in accordance with international law, there was no reason to kill them.
That's what I'd like to see you admit.
I don't think you can do that.
You try to drag up some tiny bit of justification by saying "USA have an absolute leadership in shooting down passenger planes". Hardly. The Vincennes incident is one incident for which we apologized and paid restitution.
Compare that to the Soviet shoot down on 20 April 1978 of Korean Air Lines Boeing 707-321B (HL-7429, flight 902).
Then on 1 September 1983 there was the Soviet shootdown of Korean Air Lines Boeing 747-230B (HL-7442, flight 007). Have you ever read the transcript of Russian communications on that one? General Anatoli Kornukov sure sounds like a blood-thirsty nutbag on that one. Was he ever disciplined? Uh..no.. he was eventually made commander of the entire Russian Air Force. Proud of that, eh?
By the way, the transcript of the Russian communications is here (http://www.airliners.net/articles/read.main?id=77)
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Originally posted by Toad
You try to drag up some tiny bit of justification by saying "USA have an absolute leadership in shooting down passenger planes". Hardly. The Vincennes incident is one incident for which we apologized and paid restitution.
Only one? Really? Aeroflot Il-12 was forgotten? Maybe you need to reread that link again and make a new count?
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How many times did Soviet planes violate US airspace? I have a feeling the number is disproportionate to the number of violations of Soviet air space. The Soviets may have been more trigger-happy, but perhaps they also had a more "target rich" environment.
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Originally posted by Estel
You forgot one thing. War zone has borders within the borders of the countries involved into the war. International waters that time wasn't war zone. Thus because, crew opened fire _after_ first unsuccesful attack from F4U. And I think, that this is pretty self-explanatory too. Isn't it?
[/b]
There is no evidence that there was more than one attack. The only reference says that as the Corsairs descended after spotting the A-20, the top turret opened fire. You have other references?
Shooting down passenger plane wich was identified as a passenger and not enemy is ok? If yes, don't claim us in KAL007 downing. Else, it looks like double standart. One side can shoot passenger jet on official route in international waters (Iraninan jet) and others can not.
[/b]
I don't see where the Il-2 was identified as an Aeroflot or passenger plane. It was used by the Soviet military as well, correct?
The US admitted the mistake on the Iran Air Airbus and paid reparations. Has the Soviet Union ever admitted an error on KAL 902 or KAL 007 and paid reparations?
Yes. The reason is not clear. Maybe the crew just was in wrong time in wrong place. Anyway.
It appears the SK F-5's merely intercepted and did not shoot down the An-8. Once again, the huge difference between Soviet reaction and the reaction of the rest of the world is apparent.
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Originally posted by Estel
I understand, that many of you want to see us as an evil.
Your evilness attacked us twice and has been unable to keep up to their promises. A contract is nothing more than a piece of (toilet) paper to russians. Unreliable partners at best. The history books by russians have no equal.
It's not about wanting to see russians as evil, it's about the facts of life: Don't trust a russian.
Btw. Russians are still often violating the airspace of their neightbours. Russian intelligence gathering planes seem to have a rather bad navigation equipment, I wonder how they manage to get intelligence in the first place when they can't even navigate.
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Originally posted by Estel
Only one? Really? Aeroflot Il-12 was forgotten? Maybe you need to reread that link again and make a new count?
The Il-12 was also a military aircraft. It was used as a troop transport, paratroop plane and cargo aircraft.
What evidence is there that the US pilot identified it as Aeroflot and then shot it down anyway?
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Originally posted by Viking
How many times did Soviet planes violate US airspace? I have a feeling the number is disproportionate to the number of violations of Soviet air space. The Soviets may have been more trigger-happy, but perhaps they also had a more "target rich" environment.
I think the point is that Soviet aircraft operating in international airspace, outside of warzones, were not shot down.
On the other hand, a very large number of non-Soviet aircraft operating in international airspace outside of warzones were shot down by the Soviets.
The "violate sacred Motherland airspace" is somewhat of a red herring, if you forgive the pun. They shot down a lot of aircraft in international airspace, so the sacred airspace dodge is out the window.
Again, when their recon aircraft violated the sacred airspace of Alaska, it was refueled, the crew was fed and kept warm and allowed to leave the next day.
If you can't see the difference, I can't help you.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Your evilness attacked us twice and has been unable to keep up to their promises. A contract is nothing more than a piece of (toilet) paper to russians. Unreliable partners at best. The history books by russians have no equal.
It's not about wanting to see russians as evil, it's about the facts of life: Don't trust a russian.
Btw. Russians are still often violating the airspace of their neightbours. Russian intelligence gathering planes seem to have a rather bad navigation equipment, I wonder how they manage to get intelligence in the first place when they can't even navigate.
Just a quick joke: The "Copy/Paste" function written into Microsoft code had Russians in mind. :D :rofl
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Originally posted by Fishu
Your evilness attacked us twice and has been unable to keep up to their promises. A contract is nothing more than a piece of (toilet) paper to russians. Unreliable partners at best. The history books by russians have no equal.
What?!
Yess, Finns are to trust! Attacking USSR with the Big Guy, occupying the territory 1/2 the size of your whole country, sending all "ethnically-inappropriate" population into prison camps - and still wondering why USSR spoke about "indirect aggression" in the League of Nations!
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Originally posted by Toad
The Il-12 was also a military aircraft. It was used as a troop transport, paratroop plane and cargo aircraft.
What evidence is there that the US pilot identified it as Aeroflot and then shot it down anyway?
There are different signs on wings and tail. Red Stars for military aircrafts, Red Flag with golden Hammer Sickle and a Star on tail for Aeroflot.
Aren't 747s used as troop-carriers and cargo? How about Korean 707 shot in 78? 707s are tanker, recon and etc.
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Originally posted by Estel
I understand, that many of you want to see us as an evil.
WRONG! I'm tired of the "lie spewing" and "blatant denial" that Boroda continues to do (as are most of us).
Katyn DID happen with Stalin's brutality. Apologies mend fences, denials keep the fence up.
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I like Russians, well, more specifically, Russian Vodka.:p
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Originally posted by Boroda
What?!
Yess, Finns are to trust! Attacking USSR with the Big Guy, occupying the territory 1/2 the size of your whole country, sending all "ethnically-inappropriate" population into prison camps - and still wondering why USSR spoke about "indirect aggression" in the League of Nations!
See, like I told you, the russian history has no equal in the world.
Prior to the war there were no ethnic prison camps.
Name one country in the WWII that did not move the population originating from a hostile country to an internation camp? For example the UK interned a bunch of germans living in the country, also some finnish sailors were interned. Russia wasn't an exception.
What happened to the "ethnically inappropriate" estonians, who were sent in masses to the east after the war? Oh yeah.. now I remember, the unemployed estonians volunteered to look for work halfway around the world, while the unemployed russians moved to improve infrastructure in Estonia.
Btw. What/who was the big guy with us in the winter war?
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Poor Russia.
Getting picked on by big bad Finland :(
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Originally posted by Fishu
Your evilness attacked us twice and has been unable to keep up to their promises. A contract is nothing more than a piece of (toilet) paper to russians.
Don't forget one important thing. Our "evilness" gave you freedom. And you should pray for Lenin twice a day for it. And you payed for it with childrens concentration camps on our land. Perfect payment for freedom from Russian Empire.
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Originally posted by Toad
The Il-12 was also a military aircraft. It was used as a troop transport, paratroop plane and cargo aircraft.
What evidence is there that the US pilot identified it as Aeroflot and then shot it down anyway?
Like 707 and 747.
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Originally posted by Estel
Don't forget one important thing. Our "evilness" gave you freedom. And you should pray for Lenin twice a day for it.
Good deeds do not make right for misdeeds in the future.
You are not to trust any deals with russians, there's always a hitch. Some sources believes that Lenin believed the finnish workers would shortly afterwards revolt and volunteer to join the communist Russia.
And you payed for it with childrens concentration camps on our land. Perfect payment for freedom from Russian Empire. [/B]
Oh my dear god.. childrens concentration camps on your land. How many times have you russians exagerrated everything that was done abroad against russian population? In the meanwhile you forget your own misdeeds and glorify the deeds! Such hypocricy.
There's a thing that separates us: We can admit misdeeds, but you russians can't admit to a single fault.
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Originally posted by Estel
Like 707 and 747.
Did it have the spotlight shining on the tail showing the airline's logo like the KAL 707 and KAL 747 too?
:rolleyes:
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However, this thread has perfectly exemplified what I posted earlier.
It's not about people wanting to see Russians as evil.
Rather it's about people wanting to see Russians be accountable for some of the evil things their government did.
You won't find a single American defending the mistake the Vincennes made. It was a mistake and we paid reparations. On February 22, 1996 the United States agreed to pay Iran$61.8 million in compensation for the 248 Iranians killed in the shootdown.
Our military screwed up. I doubt you'll find an American here that denys it or one that isn't truly sorry it happened.
OTOH.... I've yet to see a Russian say that any of the planes they shot down in international airspace was a mistake.
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Surprised no one has mentioned yet...
1979 Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan.
Whoa....that one was a DOOZIE!
Well done!
68ROX
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Originally posted by Fishu
There's a thing that separates us: We can admit misdeeds, but you russians can't admit to a single fault.
Most of the Russians I know, including members of my own family, have suffered substantially at the hands of the communists, and have very few good things to say about the Soviet system as a whole, much less praise it for its exploits.
Oh, and they tend to honor their contracts too, written or other, and without the need for threats of violence.
You should try not to generalize about others when touting your own righteousness.
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Originally posted by Estel
Don't forget one important thing. Our "evilness" gave you freedom. And you should pray for Lenin twice a day for it. And you payed for it with childrens concentration camps on our land. Perfect payment for freedom from Russian Empire.
Lenin killed around 15-20 million people during his stay. Definitely something to be proud of.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Lenin killed around 15-20 million people during his stay. Definitely something to be proud of.
perhaps you mean stalin?
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Originally posted by Neubob
Oh, and they tend to honor their contracts too, written or other, and without the need for threats of violence.
You should try not to generalize about others when touting your own righteousness.
We've lived right next to the russians for quite a while and the contracts have often proved to be unreliable. We make sure to take into count before hand the possible setbacks by the russian party when making a contract with them. Bribes in russia are nearly mandatory, because otherwise your projects will be constantly delayed by some sort of bureaucracy, even if all the papers have been checked ten times over. Papers have a habbit of getting mixed up on regular basis, but money will sort it out in no time.
That's our experience in general with russians. I could also generalize germans to be a reliable partner, but someone could say that they too have fraudsters and cry about the generalization.
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Originally posted by Fishu
We've lived right next to the russians for quite a while and the contracts have often proved to be unreliable. We make sure to take into count before hand the possible setbacks by the russian party when making a contract with them. Bribes in russia are nearly mandatory, because otherwise your projects will be constantly delayed by some sort of bureaucracy, even if all the papers have been checked ten times over. Papers have a habbit of getting mixed up on regular basis, but money will sort it out in no time.
That's our experience in general with russians. I could also generalize germans to be a reliable partner, but someone could say that they too have fraudsters and cry about the generalization.
Actually, my crying over generalization was aimed more at your comment about us being a group of people that never speak of their nation's previous failures and mistakes. And when you say Russians, you tend to include people that don't always live right across the boarder.
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Originally posted by storch
perhaps you mean stalin?
No, Lenin. Stalin was anywhere from 25-50 million.
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no kidding, that many? I didn't know that factoid.
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Originally posted by storch
no kidding, that many? I didn't know that factoid.
Yeah, 61,911,000 people total between the two, 54,769,000 of them citizens.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.CHAP.1.HTM
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Nope, never happened. Boroda will be along to correct you shortly.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yeah, 61,911,000 people total between the two, 54,769,000 of them citizens.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.CHAP.1.HTM
amazing, no wonder they don't want an armed peasantry over there in europe.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Actually, my crying over generalization was aimed more at your comment about us being a group of people that never speak of their nation's previous failures and mistakes. And when you say Russians, you tend to include people that don't always live right across the boarder.
Okey, let me specify: Russians of Russian nationality without other nationalities mainly living in Russia.
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I can't believe this thread is still open...
:t
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Originally posted by storch
amazing, no wonder they don't want an armed peasantry over there in europe.
Even more amazing, Boroda "defends" this, by blindly "accpeting Communism". But, when you look at the poor guy, you see why he would.
Stroch, when folks speak of Soviets and civilian deaths, they go for Stalin. Lenin was right up there with him. The USSR was founded on the premise of "murder". He'll try and deny the numbers, but the Politburo declassified a lot of this stuff, including the Katyn Massacre (which he claims the Germans did).
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Oooohh-hooooh, now we're all the way down to naughty Finns :D
Get this into your head Boroda, USSR INVADED Finland. Finnish fought back. USSR even tried to bend Finland with terror-bombing in the very first days (Helsinki) with no result. Much later Finland eventually buckles and has to bite the sour apple of loosing a lot of territory.
Then Adolf goes on the march, doing fast and fine, and grudgy Finns lend him half-a-hand. Victory goes to the Allies eventually and Finns loose 1/8th of their country to the USSR. It is today one of the ugliest zones in Russia.
And while Helsinki was being bombed, little Adolf was fuelling his Panzers and aircraft with USSR fuel. Peacefully :D
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Lol, go easy on them Angus. They can only take so much truth at once. :D
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Hehe.
And while at it, the Gerries were also molding Sweedish steel and gunning up with Bofors, how's that then?
:D
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Yeah, Adolf had Sweden in his back pocket alright . ;)
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Nah, we were more like a passive ally to Germany than anything else. Not only did we keep their war industry going, we escorted their ships, allowed their troops to transit and only stopped doing all of the above when the US outright threatened to declare war on us if we didnt. In late 1944...
However, we were smart enough to sell the pieces of a crashed V2 rocket to the US in 1945, and therefore we became part of the good guys...we even recieved Marshall aid.
We rock.
So what did norway do? Oh thats right...you were invaded. Sucks to be you.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Nah, we were more like a passive ally to Germany than anything else.
"I vas an innocent. De orders ver given at a higher level. I vas chust a soldier following orders of superiors."
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Oh dear, am I evil, - vhat haf I sctartet.....
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Come to think of it, what IF the Swedes had aided their brethren and the British in the fight of Norway. Would the Germans have been stopped?
The whole invasion was rather lucky for them after all, notably escaping past the RN, but still not over in a Blitz, - there was still fighting going on in Norway when the western front opened AFAIK.
Interesting question....
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Originally posted by Angus
Come to think of it, what IF the Swedes had aided their brethren and the British in the fight of Norway. Would the Germans have been stopped?
LOL no.
Our armed forces at the time (April 1940) were not really ready for a war. The invasion caught us completely by surprise, and we had merely a handful of batallions combat-ready. We had to struggle just to secure our major ports on April 9th (all four of them).
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
"I vas an innocent. De orders ver given at a higher level. I vas chust a soldier following orders of superiors."
Well I am indeed innocent, since all these things took place more than 30 years before my birth.
Other than that...meh, we saw the USSR as a bigger threat than Germany. And the USSR were indeed a bigger threat to us than Germany.
Also consider this:
Sweden - Germany = Long history of excellent relations, especially the northern parts of Germany where we have had close relations since the dawn of time (well, since the 13th century anyway).
Sweden - Russia = Long history of war and hostility.
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I like most people, it's easy to like individuals but easier to hate a whole race of them. for me it is thus with the russians. as a people they are not very admirable but as individuals they can be quite warm. the soviet system and it's complete and utter failure is the very reason as to why a populace should at all times be armed.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yeah, 61,911,000 people total between the two, 54,769,000 of them citizens.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.CHAP.1.HTM
Keep believing this bull****. Looks like it originates in nazi propaganda leaflets from WWII (BTW they really had to be extremely optimistic to print "surrender pass" leaflets until 1944).
My dear distant friend, 62 million you mention plus 27 million in a War - it's over 50% of the population in that times. Propaganda for mentally disabled.
Confirmed number of executed from 21 to 53 is less then one million according to prof. Zemskov's numbers accepted by Western historians. I mean - serious historians, not idiots quoting Solzhenitsyn and bringing ridiculous billions of victims.
Does that Hawaiian site also say that Russian Communists crucified Christ?
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Originally posted by Fishu
Oh my dear god.. childrens concentration camps on your land. How many times have you russians exagerrated everything that was done abroad against russian population? In the meanwhile you forget your own misdeeds and glorify the deeds! Such hypocricy.
You'd better STFU, I take it personally: my friend's Mother spent 2 years in Finnish concentration camp in Karelia, she was 7 in 1941.
Originally posted by Fishu
There's a thing that separates us: We can admit misdeeds, but you russians can't admit to a single fault.
You still deny ethnic cleansings in Karelia and "migrant camps", but the facts are facts.
You probably will also deny Finnish troops fighting in Karelia until 1922, with the dreams of "greater Finland" to the Urals. You also deny the fact that Finnish army in 1941-44 had a clear objective of capturing Leningrad, participating in a Siege starving over a million people.
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Originally posted by Angus
Oooohh-hooooh, now we're all the way down to naughty Finns :D
Get this into your head Boroda, USSR INVADED Finland. Finnish fought back. USSR even tried to bend Finland with terror-bombing in the very first days (Helsinki) with no result. Much later Finland eventually buckles and has to bite the sour apple of loosing a lot of territory.
Then Adolf goes on the march, doing fast and fine, and grudgy Finns lend him half-a-hand. Victory goes to the Allies eventually and Finns loose 1/8th of their country to the USSR. It is today one of the ugliest zones in Russia.
And while Helsinki was being bombed, little Adolf was fuelling his Panzers and aircraft with USSR fuel. Peacefully :D
I am bored by this Finnish topics when our friends from Suomi deny obvious things.
Their pre-war government wins a prize: they refused to lend us Hanko (so we could cover mine-positions in the mouth of the Finnish Gulf with artillery, that worked for mutual security), then their arrogance led to a war that they couldn't win, and ended up with USSR taking as much as Vyborg area that was given as a present to Great Principate of Finland by the Russian crown.
In March 1940 nothing could stop Red Army from marching into Helsinki, and it shows that USSR didn't seed to occupy Finland, we just needed to protect ourselves, at least to restore naval defense as mush as possible (with no chance to reach the 1914-1917 level). BTW, in 1918-19 British ships could break into Finnish Gulf only after forts on Finnish shore were either abandoned or blown up.
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Originally posted by Boroda
that worked for mutual security
Except you cant have mutual security with your only threat. Since 1800, Finland and Sweden has only been threatened from the east.
And you are quite charming when you declare that Finland should have given up a part of its territory to you...and therefore Finland is responsible for the war...where you invaded them and took their lands.
Thank you Boroda, for demonstrating why russia should be hated, much more eloquently than I could ever have explained.
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Originally posted by Boroda
You'd better STFU, I take it personally: my friend's Mother spent 2 years in Finnish concentration camp in Karelia, she was 7 in 1941.
Yeah, when it comes to your friends mothers, thats when it gets personal.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Except you cant have mutual security with your only threat. Since 1800, Finland and Sweden has only been threatened from the east.
And you are quite charming when you declare that Finland should have given up a part of its territory to you...and therefore Finland is responsible for the war...where you invaded them and took their lands.
Thank you Boroda, for demonstrating why russia should be hated, much more eloquently than I could ever have explained.
I always said that White-Finnish war was an act of aggression from Soviet side. Hard to deny obvious things (but our Finnish friends still try). But it looks foolish, typical "democratic" govt failure with reality-check: losing much after refusing to give little for significant sum of money and investments in infrastructure and maybe even jobs.
Gulf of Finland's mouth had to be sealed against German or British navy. In WWI it was done successfully with Porkala-Udd mine-artillery position, a system of mine-fields covered by coastal artillery from both sides of the Gulf. Northern part (Sveaborg, Ino and other forts) were destroyed or abandoned. With only the Southern part the position was obviously incomplete and useless - the mines could be swept out of reach of coastal artillery.
IMHO it's obvious that it's purely defensive and important. Remember - in WWI Germans didn't get into Finnish Gulf.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
We rock.
So what did norway do? Oh thats right...you were invaded. Sucks to be you.
:rofl :rofl :aok
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oh my
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J/K, i hope u know that :aok
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Hortlund:
"Except you cant have mutual security with your only threat. Since 1800, Finland and Sweden has only been threatened from the east.
And you are quite charming when you declare that Finland should have given up a part of its territory to you...and therefore Finland is responsible for the war...where you invaded them and took their lands. "
Very spot on IMHO.
And Boroda, - while the USSR was having war with Finland to "secure" itself against Britain and Germany, the USSR was (you teach animals through the way of repedition, so I also try it here) HAVING BUSINESS AND A DEAL WITH GERMANY.
The Swedes also did their business, the business was also open from Germany to USA, - the only ones in the way were the UK.
Guess you needed Finland to defend from them, huh?
And by the way, on more personal notes, my wife's Grandma, was intered for a while (together with her few-months baby) by the USSR. The tales from that make you sick. However she was lucky, for she had a ride away, with Vilhelm Gustloff, but didn't get aboard....
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Originally posted by Boroda
I always said that White-Finnish war was an act of aggression from Soviet side. Hard to deny obvious things (but our Finnish friends still try). But it looks foolish, typical "democratic" govt failure with reality-check: losing much after refusing to give little for significant sum of money and investments in infrastructure and maybe even jobs.
You just said the opposite. And the Finnish have been holding up the opposite to what you claim about them.
:huh
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Originally posted by Angus
And Boroda, - while the USSR was having war with Finland to "secure" itself against Britain and Germany, the USSR was (you teach animals through the way of repedition, so I also try it here) HAVING BUSINESS AND A DEAL WITH GERMANY.
The Swedes also did their business, the business was also open from Germany to USA, - the only ones in the way were the UK.
Guess you needed Finland to defend from them, huh?
Again the money for the fish. We needed technology and weapons, Germans gave it for the things that were useless in USSR. They were supplying their enemy.
USSR raised a question of "indirect aggression" in a League of Nations, and it happened exactly as Soviet leadership predicted: in June 1941 Finland was used as a beachhead for German bombers and troops. It took Finns and Germans several months to reach the old border line in 1941, incomplete Hanko base also distracted significant forces from Leningrad. Without that - Leningrad was doomed.
Originally posted by Angus
And by the way, on more personal notes, my wife's Grandma, was intered for a while (together with her few-months baby) by the USSR. The tales from that make you sick. However she was lucky, for she had a ride away, with Vilhelm Gustloff, but didn't get aboard....
I told you, my Grand-Uncle was killed at Koenigsberg in April 1945, he was only 17 years old... IIRC Rip's family also lived in Eastern Prussia...
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Originally posted by Angus
You just said the opposite. And the Finnish have been holding up the opposite to what you claim about them.
:huh
????
I have read Tanner's memoirs, it's an eye-opening book, how silly politicians can screw up the situation.
Mine-artillery position was important against German or British navy, as I said. UK signing peace with nazis was considered a most possible development of the situation by Soviet leadership. And in this case balance of power in Eastern Baltics was much worse then in 1914-17. In WWI we had full-scale mine positions plus four dreadnaughts in Helsinki that never left the harbor, plus all kinds of old battleships and small ships. In 1941 we had 2 old battleships (floating batteries), a few modern light cruisers and a handful of destroyers.
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What's the point of hate anyway? Hortlund says he hates Russia, but what does that achieve? Hate is an emotion I have trouble understanding, and one that should be shunned at all costs, considering how much evil has been perpetrated because of hatred.
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Originally posted by Viking
What's the point of hate anyway? Hortlund says he hates Russia, but what does that achieve? Hate is an emotion I have trouble understanding, and one that should be shunned at all costs, considering how much evil has been perpetrated because of hatred.
I now hate u for beeing right :D
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Sorry forgot this one.
Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... now I am confused... you mean that soviets could just get a passport and wave to the border guards as they crossed into other countries?
Surely not. You couldn't get a foreign passport unless you had a purpose for a trip abroad, and this passports were not kept on hand, they were stored in passport-visa departments, you returned them when you came back.
I said: you had to apply for emigration. I don't know how, but that guy I met in Australia said it was pretty easy for him to emigrate.
Look, different countries have different laws. It's hard to expect everyone to adopt American system, that is, as I hope you understand, far from perfect (just like any else). In Turkmenistan a girl can get married at 13, so what? bomb them?
Originally posted by lazs2
why even have walls like in berlin? to keep out the west perhaps? so that they wouldn't steal soviet automaking secrets perhaps?
Are you saying that all the people who risked their lives to get out of your country... that every one of em was a rocket scientist?
95% of the population were quite happy with what they got. There were some people who eagerly moved to USSR from the US and even claimed political asylum, but you definitely never heard about them in your "free media". There is always some percent of people who are dissatisfied.
Another problem was that state invested huge sums in education, health-care and other things, so letting everyone go was like educating and preparing people who will emigrate and work for the enemy. Cruel but pragmatic :( We are a poor country and couldn't afford such charity. I look at it as at signing a contract with the State. And we couldn't survive without free education, I think it's obvious.
Originally posted by lazs2
I take offense at you saying that communism is an alternative. It is dehumanizing slavery... it is hive mentality not suited for humans. It is the most disgusting political tyranny ever devised. I would kill anyone who tried to force it on me.
You repeat comic-books from 1950s. You have no idea of what Communism is, and of what was going on here under Soviet Socialism. "Stop speaking about taste of caviar to people who actually tasted it" (c) Mickhail Zhvanetsky.
It's amazing how easily people are taught to hate things they don't know.
"Dehumanizing slavery"?... I wish you could talk to my Mother who lives in Australia now and came to some interesting conclusions comparing USSR and so-called "free world".
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Originally posted by Boroda
Keep believing this bull****. Looks like it originates in nazi propaganda leaflets from WWII (BTW they really had to be extremely optimistic to print "surrender pass" leaflets until 1944).
My dear distant friend, 62 million you mention plus 27 million in a War - it's over 50% of the population in that times. Propaganda for mentally disabled.
Confirmed number of executed from 21 to 53 is less then one million according to prof. Zemskov's numbers accepted by Western historians. I mean - serious historians, not idiots quoting Solzhenitsyn and bringing ridiculous billions of victims.
Does that Hawaiian site also say that Russian Communists crucified Christ?
Only you say it is, I'm sorry but the amount of civilians killed by Lenin, has NOTHING to do about WWII Germany. Less than a Million my arse, but obviously your arms never get tired of slinging it.
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total drivel... communism is slavery. if it worked on freedom then why not simply let anyone go who wanted to?
Why have walls to keep people in if, as you say 95% of the people were happy to live in a prison state?
do you know 95% of the people? I don't.. I do know that you had to build walls to keep em in or they would have left. That is the cold hard fact... the elephant in the room.
We have a lot of problem keeping people out... you had to lock em in.. how was soviet russia not a prison? how was being held captive and forced to work to support others not slavery?
I matters not if you are happy at some point in your captivity or your slavery... that does not make the institution of slavery or communism right. It merely makes it bearable for that moment.
In that respect... you were indeed an evil empire. It was bad enough that you did it to your people but you also did it to everyone who couldn't resist your might. you didn't leave what you conquered... you built walls around it to keep those people in.
Nothing you can say changes that. Nothing you can say excuses it.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
total drivel... communism is slavery. if it worked on freedom then why not simply let anyone go who wanted to?
Why have walls to keep people in if, as you say 95% of the people were happy to live in a prison state?
do you know 95% of the people? I don't.. I do know that you had to build walls to keep em in or they would have left. That is the cold hard fact... the elephant in the room.
We have a lot of problem keeping people out... you had to lock em in.. how was soviet russia not a prison? how was being held captive and forced to work to support others not slavery?
I matters not if you are happy at some point in your captivity or your slavery... that does not make the institution of slavery or communism right. It merely makes it bearable for that moment.
In that respect... you were indeed an evil empire. It was bad enough that you did it to your people but you also did it to everyone who couldn't resist your might. you didn't leave what you conquered... you built walls around it to keep those people in.
Nothing you can say changes that. Nothing you can say excuses it.
lazs
Yep
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Originally posted by lazs2
total drivel... communism is slavery. if it worked on freedom then why not simply let anyone go who wanted to?
Why have walls to keep people in if, as you say 95% of the people were happy to live in a prison state?
do you know 95% of the people? I don't.. I do know that you had to build walls to keep em in or they would have left. That is the cold hard fact... the elephant in the room.
We have a lot of problem keeping people out... you had to lock em in.. how was soviet russia not a prison? how was being held captive and forced to work to support others not slavery?
I matters not if you are happy at some point in your captivity or your slavery... that does not make the institution of slavery or communism right. It merely makes it bearable for that moment.
In that respect... you were indeed an evil empire. It was bad enough that you did it to your people but you also did it to everyone who couldn't resist your might. you didn't leave what you conquered... you built walls around it to keep those people in.
Nothing you can say changes that. Nothing you can say excuses it.
lazs
yep
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Originally posted by lazs2
total drivel... communism is slavery. if it worked on freedom then why not simply let anyone go who wanted to?
Why have walls to keep people in if, as you say 95% of the people were happy to live in a prison state?
do you know 95% of the people? I don't.. I do know that you had to build walls to keep em in or they would have left. That is the cold hard fact... the elephant in the room.
We have a lot of problem keeping people out... you had to lock em in.. how was soviet russia not a prison? how was being held captive and forced to work to support others not slavery?
I matters not if you are happy at some point in your captivity or your slavery... that does not make the institution of slavery or communism right. It merely makes it bearable for that moment.
In that respect... you were indeed an evil empire. It was bad enough that you did it to your people but you also did it to everyone who couldn't resist your might. you didn't leave what you conquered... you built walls around it to keep those people in.
Nothing you can say changes that. Nothing you can say excuses it.
lazs
Define "communism". Define "freedom". Define "slavery".
You speak about things you don't have a slightest idea of. Should I post a same diatribe about so-called "free world" here?
Yes, you have to keep people out, just as we do, and this is a clear and bright illustration to your hypocrisy: now it's YOU who build a new Iron Curtain. Nothing changes. All this hype about "walls" and "keeping people in" is nothing but propaganda bull****.
Look, you planned to burn us only because we give people an alternative, a different way, a reason to doubt the "divinely given" state of affairs in the West, undermining the power of your "democratically-elected" olygarchy. A sick "protestant ethics" against Orthodox moral, it have been a problem for you for centuries. Your anti-communist propaganda crap isn't much different from slogans and brainwashing of the 7-Years War or Teutons robbing and raping our North-West since XIII century.
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the berlin wall was put up to keep west berliners out? people are building rafts in miami and risking their lives to return to cuba?
bar tender I'll have what pavel is having please.
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Ahem, Boroda, I was referring to the Finns on this board.
As for this:
"UK signing peace with nazis was considered a most possible development of the situation by Soviet leadership"
When USSR invaded Finland, USSR had PEACE with GERMANY, and UK had WAR with GERMANY.
ok?
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As for the most possible development, - invading Finland was only likely to fuel it up, for the Brits might then be confronted with peace with the lesser of two evils. Luckily they soldiered on, and fought Germany which was at the time being gassed and steeled up by USSR and Sweden, just not the USA because of the often overlooked Royal Navy.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Look, you planned to burn us only because we give people an alternative, a different way, .
No, our war plans were all a defense against continued Soviet aggression and enslavement of independent European countries.
Wait.. the Czechs and Hungarians just loved you guys, right?
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Originally posted by storch
the berlin wall was put up to keep west berliners out? people are building rafts in miami and risking their lives to return to cuba?
Now tell me why you have shut the Iron Curtain after it was open from our side?
I told you: there are dissatisfied people in any society. Especially if they are badly misinformed. Again: there were some people who asked for political asylum in the USSR during the Cold War, but, funny, you will never hear about them in Western "free media". Hypocrisy.
Originally posted by storch
bar tender I'll have what pavel is having please.
Give him a mug of Arsenal Hardened (Arsenalnoye Zakalyonnoye)! Do you have strong beers with pepper there? I didn't see anything like that, your strong beers are tasteless (except some Aussie brands). Or maybe a 100ml shot of Nemiroff Honey and Pepper (I know it's exported from Ukraine to the West) with pickled garlic springs wrapped in salo (salted pork lard) and black bread?
How can we speak about mutual understanding when their drinking habits are so primitive and barbaric?... Poor victims of Western advertising! :D ;)
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this thread is not funny nor is it cool. well storch was kinda funny. the most part is i am suprised Skuzzy has not Skuzzified it yet all i have to say is IN
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Originally posted by Toad
No, our war plans were all a defense against continued Soviet aggression and enslavement of independent European countries.
Soviet aggression?! We simply wanted to be left alone, we had our country totally destroyed two times in 30 years, and tried to build a barrier against "civilized world".
Toad, US planned a first strike against USSR, and if we didn't get the Bomb in 1949 - this planned had to be fulfilled. Face it. It was YOUR job to "plot ingress routes", not some VVS pilot's flying over the US.
Originally posted by Toad
Wait.. the Czechs and Hungarians just loved you guys, right?
Believe me or not, but my friends had a lot of fun in Prague several years ago singing Russian songs with locals in a bar. And about Hungary: the civil war there was provoked by CIA, and US officials admitted it. Just curious, if Mexico will have a new regime that will hang all "gringos" on lamp-posts - what will be the US reaction? Sending diplomatic notes?
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Originally posted by Angus
Ahem, Boroda, I was referring to the Finns on this board.
As for this:
"UK signing peace with nazis was considered a most possible development of the situation by Soviet leadership"
When USSR invaded Finland, USSR had PEACE with GERMANY, and UK had WAR with GERMANY.
ok?
Read about Moscow negotiations Aug 1939. "Allies" refused from all Soviet offers, refused to deploy any significant forces against Germany and literally forced USSR to sign a non-aggression treaty with nazis. It's hard to keep this discussion when you don't know basic facts about pre-war politics in Europe, sorry.
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I always said that White-Finnish war was an act of aggression from Soviet side.
No you haven't. You have consistently blamed the Finns for that entire war and all the lives lost. Your argument on that is really no different than offering to trade cars with your neighbor with a cash inducement involved. When your neighbor refuses, you beat the crap out of him and then blame him for you kicking the crap out of him. A rediculous argument. If you had *just* traded....you wouldn't be laying there broken and bleeding....:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Fishu
See, like I told you, the russian history has no equal in the world.
Prior to the war there were no ethnic prison camps.
Name one country in the WWII that did not move the population originating from a hostile country to an internation camp? For example the UK interned a bunch of germans living in the country, also some finnish sailors were interned. Russia wasn't an exception.
Name one country? Well: USSR. Ethnic Germans were never "put into internment camps", they were evacuated into Kazakhstan, and it happened only after German colonists in the Ukraine started shooting Soviet soldiers in the back.
Originally posted by Fishu
What happened to the "ethnically inappropriate" estonians, who were sent in masses to the east after the war? Oh yeah.. now I remember, the unemployed estonians volunteered to look for work halfway around the world, while the unemployed russians moved to improve infrastructure in Estonia.
Btw. What/who was the big guy with us in the winter war?
Less then 10,000 Estonians were relocated by force (exiled or imprisoned) after the War. If you count members of Estonian SS legion - it will pretty much explain it. All they got was like 3 years of exile. Don't whistle in my ears about "Soviet ethnic cleansings", this guys had hands deep in blood.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Define "communism". Define "freedom". Define "slavery".
You speak about things you don't have a slightest idea of. Should I post a same diatribe about so-called "free world" here?
Yes, you have to keep people out, just as we do, and this is a clear and bright illustration to your hypocrisy: now it's YOU who build a new Iron Curtain. Nothing changes. All this hype about "walls" and "keeping people in" is nothing but propaganda bull****.
Look, you planned to burn us only because we give people an alternative, a different way, a reason to doubt the "divinely given" state of affairs in the West, undermining the power of your "democratically-elected" olygarchy. A sick "protestant ethics" against Orthodox moral, it have been a problem for you for centuries. Your anti-communist propaganda crap isn't much different from slogans and brainwashing of the 7-Years War or Teutons robbing and raping our North-West since XIII century.
So why was the Berlin Wall manned by gunners? Why not let Germans......I mean families go about Berlin?
Lenin founded his govt. and had the help of a drunkard (shock) and potato monger named Rasputin. The govt's purpose exceeded the intended purpose of "using Marxism" as a guideline. Liquidation of civilians rivaled the stupidity of the Salem With Trials, by accusing anyone it felt.
You keep saying "we", although no one else is preaching this crap. Why?
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Originally posted by Elfie
No you haven't. Y
Don't put your words into my mouth. This discussion with Finns is years old.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Name one country? Well: USSR. Ethnic Germans were never "put into internment camps", they were evacuated into Kazakhstan, and it happened only after German colonists in the Ukraine started shooting Soviet soldiers in the back.
Less then 10,000 Estonians were relocated by force (exiled or imprisoned) after the War. If you count members of Estonian SS legion - it will pretty much explain it. All they got was like 3 years of exile. Don't whistle in my ears about "Soviet ethnic cleansings", this guys had hands deep in blood.
Katyn, Poland, Hungary, Romania, East Germany, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. Any country the USSR "grabbed" murder soon followed. Even if they were captured and imprisoned, they were usually killed. Communism = Blind and Accepted Hatred.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Liar.
Nice to meet you, I'm Pavel. You can call me Paul.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Nice to meet you, I'm Pavel. You can call me Paul.
You are a pathological Liar.
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Rather it's about people wanting to see Russians be accountable for some of the evil things their government did.
Looks like this still won't happen at least on this message board.
Don't put your words into my mouth. This discussion with Finns is years old.
I didn't put words in your mouth. It is YOUR argument that the invasion of Finland was the fault of Finland herself for not wanting to trade chunks of land.
Which is no different in principle than the analogy I used.
Read about Moscow negotiations Aug 1939. "Allies" refused from all Soviet offers, refused to deploy any significant forces against Germany and literally forced USSR to sign a non-aggression treaty with nazis. It's hard to keep this discussion when you don't know basic facts about pre-war politics in Europe, sorry.
Again, you blame others for the actions of your country. In August of 1939 the Allies didn't want war with Germany, were still hoping it could be avoided. So why would they deploy forces against Germany? They wanted peace.
If Stalin hadn't purged his military officers the Red Army would have been in a much better position to defend Mother Russia when the Germans did invade.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Again, you blame others for the actions of your country.
This is the FOUNDATION of COMMUNISM.
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And about Hungary: the civil war there was provoked by CIA, and US officials admitted it.
WRONG!!
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB206/index.htm
Washington D.C., October 31, 2006 - Fifty years ago today the Soviet Presidium overturned its earlier decision to pull its troops out of Hungary in the face of a popular uprising, yet the CIA--with only one Hungarian-speaking officer stationed in Budapest at the time--failed to foresee either the uprising or the Soviet invasion to come, according to declassified CIA histories posted on the Web by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://www.nsarchive.org).
Describing the several days in early November 1956 when it seemed the Hungarian Revolution had succeeded (before the Soviet tanks rolled in on November 4), a CIA Clandestine Service History written in 1958 commented: "This breath-taking and undreamed-of state of affairs not only caught many Hungarians off-guard, it also caught us off-guard, for which we can hardly be blamed since we had no inside information, little outside information, and could not read the Russians' minds."
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Originally posted by Boroda
How can we speak about mutual understanding when their drinking habits are so primitive and barbaric?... Poor victims of Western advertising! :D ;)
:lol I drink sometimes with a russian friend. he has some home made stuff that must be grain alcohol call slivovitze (sp)? nasty stuff. I'll ask him about nemiroff. we have a pork fat with the skin that is deep fried that when ever I buy some and take to where the russians are drinking they love. we call them chicharrones in cuba. most of the time I drink with these guys after 15:30 on the remodelling projects that my friend vladimir is always getting from rich russians who buy waterfront homes on miami beach. those russians can drink a ton. I usually leave by 18:30 after traffic has died down but those guys stay until every drop of alcohol is gone.
russians are very agreeable and warm individually. if you say for instance I made a mistake on that piece there in a critical form, me critizing my own handiwork, he will say "maybe but perhaps you were busy making the rest of it perfect". how could one not love a person like that? and it's not just my friend it seems to be a common thread amonst all the russians I have met so far.
prior to three years ago I knew no russians personally after interacting with russians, I now view russia far differently.
russians have the storch stamp of approval, some of the ladies are easy on the eyes too :aok
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I have heard it takes years to remove what brainwashing does to a person.
Not that the West didn't brainwash but at least there was 'checks and balances' in place to see through the brainwashing unlike the USSR where there was only the Party and no way to disprove what the general population was told.
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My dear distant friend, 62 million you mention plus 27 million in a War - it's over 50% of the population in that times. Propaganda for mentally disabled.
What you fail to take into account is that those people were killed over a period of 50+ years. You statement is only true if you look at them being killed all at once.
So who is mentally disabled now? :O
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Toad, US planned a first strike against USSR,
How was NATO going to pull off a first strike against the USSR when NATO was out manned and out gunned in every category by the Warsaw Pact forces?
The Warsaw Pact had more men, tanks, artillery pieces, planes etc than NATO ever did.
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Originally posted by Elfie
What you fail to take into account is that those people were killed over a period of 50+ years. You statement is only true if you look at them being killed all at once.
So who is mentally disabled now? :O
Elfie, it wasn't even over 50 years. From 1917-54 around 62 million civilians were MURDERED in the name of "Wonderful, Beautiful Communism." Boroda's own "former Politburo acknowledged these numbers".
Boroda is a pathological liar. I debated his types many times. You get em in a corner like you have here, and they start shouting louder and louder to make up for the fact they haven't a leg to stand on. The shouting is "somehow supposed to overshadow the lack of facts."
Boroda, why not run for Dictator? You obviously believe Communism is great, let's see how you fare?
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No, Boroda is a pathological liar. He has been so brainwashed that he just can't accept the true facts.
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Elfie, it wasn't even over 50 years. From 1917-54 around 62 million civilians were MURDERED in the name of "Wonderful, Beautiful Communism." Boroda's own "former Politburo acknowledged these numbers".
What is 12 years in the Grand Scheme of things? :O
Just kidding, I stand corrected. :D Still, it's nearly a four decade time frame that those people were killed. My original point still stands.
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karaya why are you calling him a pathological liar?
let me explain something to us all about the truth since the fall of man.
think of the truth as if it were a mirror. since the fall of man that perfect mirror was shattered and now everyone has a sliver of that truth. many find a shard and claim loudly I HAVE THE TRUTH. in fact all of can only hope to ever have but a small piece of the truth. absolute truth belongs absolutely to God. neither you nor I nor boroda have the truth but mere slivers of it.
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Boroda:
""Allies" refused from all Soviet offers, refused to deploy any significant forces against Germany and literally forced USSR to sign a non-aggression treaty with nazis."
Oh dear. Poor little Soviet FORCED into dealing with Hitler.
Well, in that case, the unimportant UK was not? And that's why USSR had to eat up half of Poland and invade Finland as well as annexing the baltic states.
Poor little kitty...errrr....bear.
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Originally posted by Elfie
How was NATO going to pull off a first strike against the USSR when NATO was out manned and out gunned in every category by the Warsaw Pact forces?
The Warsaw Pact had more men, tanks, artillery pieces, planes etc than NATO ever did.
In the early '60's the US did have a war plan that included a first strike against the Soviets in the event the US had strategic warning of a Soviet attack.
Common sense. I'm sure the Soviets had the same.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Okey, let me specify: Russians of Russian nationality without other nationalities mainly living in Russia.
My entire family is russian, Fishu, and the only one, out of the entire lot, whether living here in the States or back there, that hasn't at least a mild resentment for the Soviet system, as well as what came after, is my 103-year-old grandfather, who grew up under Lenin.
Being largely Jewish, most of the others have more than just a mild resentment, but I suppose you've never met people like this in your business dealings. Maybe one day you will.
Personally, having travelled there pretty extensively over the last 3 years, I've yet to come across a single person who has no negative opinions of the travesties of the past, or the corrupt decay of the present. Those who managed to profit from the current mess will get theirs, and they know it, and that is part of the price.
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Originally posted by Elfie
How was NATO going to pull off a first strike against the USSR when NATO was out manned and out gunned in every category by the Warsaw Pact forces?
The Warsaw Pact had more men, tanks, artillery pieces, planes etc than NATO ever did.
He was talking about the US Air Force and its thousands of B-47s and B-52s armed with nukes.
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Originally posted by Toad
In the early '60's the US did have a war plan that included a first strike against the Soviets in the event the US had strategic warning of a Soviet attack.
Common sense. I'm sure the Soviets had the same.
I know part of the plan in the event of a Soviet attack. It was almost suicidal but important to the overall picture. Im sure glad war didnt break out and i was a pilot in the norwegian airforce. :( The calculated losses was huge and with relativly little to show for it in the defence of norway.
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Originally posted by Toad
In the early '60's the US did have a war plan that included a first strike against the Soviets in the event the US had strategic warning of a Soviet attack.
Common sense. I'm sure the Soviets had the same.
That would be a preemptive strike then and I don't believe that is what Boroda is talking about. I believe he is talking about an unprovoked first strike.
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Personally, having travelled there pretty extensively over the last 3 years, I've yet to come across a single person who has no negative opinions of the travesties of the past
It seems that you don't actually have to do any traveling to find a single person with no negative feelings or opinions of the travesties of the past. Just read this thread. :D
Your statement does show that Boroda does seem to be in the minority even amongst his fellow countrymen.
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Originally posted by Elfie
It seems that you don't actually have to do any traveling to find a single person with no negative feelings or opinions of the travesties of the past. Just read this thread. :D
Your statement does show that Boroda does seem to be in the minority even amongst his fellow countrymen.
In respect to Beard, I have long ago agreed to disagree with his beliefs, albeit unilaterally. Given the modern state of things, how anybody, from anywhere, can be an unequivocal patriot, is beyond me.
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Originally posted by storch
karaya why are you calling him a pathological liar?
let me explain something to us all about the truth since the fall of man.
think of the truth as if it were a mirror. since the fall of man that perfect mirror was shattered and now everyone has a sliver of that truth. many find a shard and claim loudly I HAVE THE TRUTH. in fact all of can only hope to ever have but a small piece of the truth. absolute truth belongs absolutely to God. neither you nor I nor boroda have the truth but mere slivers of it.
Why are you directing this towards me and not other's who have just said the same thing?
Storch, I personally do NOT have a problem with you. You have an agenda with me, and that is that. I have NO PROBLEM with you in game also, but when my squad is involved, I'll say something. Just as I would expect you to defend "Grunherz". Like when I was trying to "get to" WidleSau the other night, but kept having to dodge a HO'ing Niki. I have no problem trying to clear YOU. The ball is on your court on the above storch.
I've listened to his "Communism rules" crap for too long. Even you didn't realize the "Death Toll" under Lenin, as do many others. Other's are starting to see the haze and "blind acceptance" of Boroda to the Joys of Communism. Bottom line, there is no joy to it. It is borderline poverty. Take ANY Communist country on the face of the Earth and take them on a Tour of the UK, Germany, Netherlands, Italy, France, US, or Japan. Tell me "Cuba, Vietnam, China, Russia and it's former seizures, and tell me they were better off under Communism."
The flip side is I, personally, harbor no "ill feelings" towards any Communist country. I just have a problem when another human being, avoids facts and tries to grandstand with every fact being refuted.
Best bet is to ask "former East Germans". I happen to personally know 4 families, that were shattered over a single wall. Relatives hadn't seen each other from the time that wall went up, until it came down.
Boroda DOES have some issues, I am not using this as a "poke at him", he should get some professional help. This is beyond "brainwashed". To just "blindly" rejoice over "Communism" is sheer lunacy at best. If the Cubans "love Communism", why do they want to come to the US? We both know why, "Communism is just above poverty".
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K you have a difference of opinion with the beard. so do I. I don't see him as a pathological liar. he views the world from a filter far different from the one one you and I do. his truth is different from our truth. if you believe what you have read or have learned from your sources and this is fact what you believe would it be acceptable for me to call you a patholical liar for your beliefs?
that's all I'm saying here.
the question was posed to you because you flung the pooh.
the beard has been arguing his position and carrying on a multi front war, doing so with panaché.
can you guys at least credit him with good sportsmanship?
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Originally posted by Neubob
My entire family is russian, Fishu, and the only one, out of the entire lot, whether living here in the States or back there, that hasn't at least a mild resentment for the Soviet system, as well as what came after, is my 103-year-old grandfather, who grew up under Lenin.
Being largely Jewish, most of the others have more than just a mild resentment, but I suppose you've never met people like this in your business dealings. Maybe one day you will.
Personally, having traveled there pretty extensively over the last 3 years, I've yet to come across a single person who has no negative opinions of the travesties of the past, or the corrupt decay of the present. Those who managed to profit from the current mess will get theirs, and they know it, and that is part of the price.
Neubob, what ALL OF YOU fail to see, is that I could sit right across from you and talk to you and have a civil conversation for HOURS on end. However, I'd walk away at the start of a "political conversation".
I watch my oldest brother who is 9 years older than me and bases EVERY FACET, OF EVERY WAKING HOUR on politics. He is so hard line Democrat, that when I see him after a long lapse, I have to be tormented by hearing the "latest Bush did this, Republicans did this" s*it. Everything has a "political undertone", I mean everything.
I am a Moderate, both parties here in the US are corrupt, full of liars, and gave care less about me. I feel bad for my brother because he allows "liars" into, and run his daily life. I let him say what he wants, completely devoid of response, and when he is done, I'll move on to something more productive.
I rarely talk about Ideologies, Religion, or any "touchy subject", simply because I don't allow to "run my life".
I could probably talk to Boroda for hours on just music alone. Am I making any sense here? There is more to life than "making everything a political debate".
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Originally posted by storch
K you have a difference of opinion with the beard. so do I. I don't see him as a pathological liar. he views the world from a filter far different from the one one you and I do. his truth is different for our truth. if you believe what you have read or have learned from your sources and this is fact what you believe would it be acceptable for me to call you a patholical liar for your beliefs?
that's all I'm saying here.
the question was posed to you because you flung the pooh.
the beard has been arguing his position and carrying on a multi front war, doing so with panaché.
can you guys at least credit him with good sportsmanship?
Look up, I was NOT the only one to call him one. Please, look up. That was my point all along storch. I called him one, I'll take my "hand slap". Be sure and "share the wealth though".
I can back all of my "accusations" by fact, websites, novels, and other formats. Political Science was a former Major of mine. I don't come on here and start political threads, you won't find a single one. I try and resist, but when someone types something so "blindly", I try and help them. But they keep "piling on with the blind path of slinging more caca del toro" to "outdo the last post".
He is getting a beating on here, but will concoct another "groundbreaker" to post in the coming hours. It's predictable, again, I feel bad for him. All he has to is "stop piling on crap" and it will cease, but EVERYONE knows he won't.
I deal in a realm of facts, and facts alone. Everything else, is wasted and expended energy.
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I wasn't even talking about what you said, Masherbrum. I have no doubt that you could carry on a calm, civil conversation.
My only quibble (which, I admit, was probably voiced out of over-sensitivity and an inability to see past what I snap-judged as a sweeping personal attack on all Russians) was with Fishu's comment. However, as I said initially, there are worse things than being hated. At least while being hated, you're sure never to be forgotten, overlooked or ignored.
I'm not a fan of political discussions. To me, discussing politics is exactly like discussing religion. At the end of the day, no matter how much or how little logic you use, you're not gonna change anybody's mind. I've been with these boards for years now, and I don't think I've seen a single political conversion come about solely from discussion. What does come about, almost without fail, is a pissing match about who's right, who's wrong, who's smart, who's dumb, who's a saint, who's a degenerate, and, inevitably, who's blind and who has seen the light.
So I'm with you on that issue.
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Originally posted by Neubob
I wasn't even talking about what you said, Masherbrum. I have no doubt that you could carry on a calm, civil conversation.
My only quibble (which, I admit, was probably voiced out of over-sensitivity and an inability to see past what I snap-judged as a sweeping personal attack on all Russians) was with Fishu's comment. However, as I said initially, there are worse things than being hated. At least while being hated, you're sure never to be forgotten, overlooked or ignored.
I'm not a fan of political discussions. To me, discussing politics is exactly like discussing religion. At the end of the day, no matter how much or how little logic you use, you're not gonna change anybody's mind. I've been with these boards for years now, and I don't think I've seen a single political conversion come about solely from discussion. What does come about, almost without fail, is a pissing match about who's right, who's wrong, who's smart, who's dumb, who's a saint, who's a degenerate, and, inevitably, who's blind and who has seen the light.
So I'm with you on that issue.
Neubob, I know you weren't but I figured I'd tell the community.
<> Neubob, maybe one day our path's will cross.
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Getting back on the rail, and away from reublicans&democrats:
Originally posted by Neubob
My entire family is russian, Fishu, and the only one, out of the entire lot, whether living here in the States or back there, that hasn't at least a mild resentment for the Soviet system, as well as what came after, is my 103-year-old grandfather, who grew up under Lenin.
Being largely Jewish, most of the others have more than just a mild resentment, but I suppose you've never met people like this in your business dealings. Maybe one day you will.
Personally, having travelled there pretty extensively over the last 3 years, I've yet to come across a single person who has no negative opinions of the travesties of the past, or the corrupt decay of the present. Those who managed to profit from the current mess will get theirs, and they know it, and that is part of the price.
IMHO a very good input Neubob for a thread hardly worth it. TY.
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Much appreciated, Angus,
And
<> to you too, Masherbrum
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
You are a pathological Liar.
It seems to me that you are a bright representative of intellectual majority.
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Originally posted by Elfie
That would be a preemptive strike then and I don't believe that is what Boroda is talking about. I believe he is talking about an unprovoked first strike.
Drop Shot plan. Also see Fleetwood, Charioter, and succeeding plans and documents. Drop Shot plan was disclosed in late-60s. And yes, it projected up to 50% losses for SAC bombers. As well as killing about 10 million Soviet civilians in first two weeks.
Funny that there is almost no information available about this plans on the Net.
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Originally posted by Neubob
In respect to Beard, I have long ago agreed to disagree with his beliefs, albeit unilaterally. Given the modern state of things, how anybody, from anywhere, can be an unequivocal patriot, is beyond me.
Look, I have told my opinion on current state of affairs. I understand your opinion. I am not in any way a fan of comrade Putin.
My point is: both systems were equally good or bad. Now it's history, and I don't want people who planned to burn us with cold blood (and I am absolutely sure they'll never hesitate if they'll see a 50% probability of success) throw **** at my Counrty, at the people who defeated nazis and then built up our country from ashes to face the threat of a nuclear holocaust only because they wanted to live their own way.
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Originally posted by Angus
Boroda:
""Allies" refused from all Soviet offers, refused to deploy any significant forces against Germany and literally forced USSR to sign a non-aggression treaty with nazis."
Oh dear. Poor little Soviet FORCED into dealing with Hitler.
Well, in that case, the unimportant UK was not? And that's why USSR had to eat up half of Poland and invade Finland as well as annexing the baltic states.
Poor little kitty...errrr....bear.
Go read something about Moscow negotiations 1939. Here is a good book that contains quotes from protocols: http://www.amazon.com/Borrowed-Time-How-World-Began/dp/0394439104/ref=sr_1_1/105-4965757-8284424?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184845311&sr=8-1
It's useless to argue until you'll read something about that. It's a book by a British author, hard to say it's "Soviet propaganda", and the story of this negotiations was usually outside Soviet history text-books.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I didn't put words in your mouth. It is YOUR argument that the invasion of Finland was the fault of Finland herself for not wanting to trade chunks of land.
We use different definitions of "fault". It wasn't Finland's "fault", they behaved bravely but silly, I mean - their government. Please understand that I think in Russian and have to find closest English words that don't always have exactly the same meaning. Add different mind-set too.
Originally posted by Elfie
Again, you blame others for the actions of your country. In August of 1939 the Allies didn't want war with Germany, were still hoping it could be avoided. So why would they deploy forces against Germany? They wanted peace.
Negotiations were on an exact subject: upcoming war in Europe between Germany and Poland. USSR had all plans ready, ready to deploy 100+ divisions against nazis, while "allies" failed to answer any questions from Voroshilov, mumbling something about "a couple of divisions in no less then three months". Protocol quotes are available in Mosley's book, see link above.
Originally posted by Elfie
If Stalin hadn't purged his military officers the Red Army would have been in a much better position to defend Mother Russia when the Germans did invade.
Let me have my own opinion on this subject, my Grand-Father was a cavalry Brigade commander in the 30s. People like Marshall Bluher were incapable of commanding in modern conditions. Bluher was executed for screwing up a border-conflict with Japan in 1938, when he was drinking himself dead and waving his sable from a tank turret instead of organizing his troops. It's just one example of incompetence. People"purged" were partisan squad commanders of the Civil War, anarchic and uneducated.
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The story of the Russian betrayal of the Poles is heartwarming. The Russians didn't want to screw the Poles but sadly, they just couldn't resist..er... I mean they had to do so.
Enjoy this tidbit from a previous thread:
When the Soviet Union invaded Poland there were in effect the following treaties and agreements between the governments of Poland and the Soviet Union:
The Peace Treaty between Poland, Russia and the Ukraine signed in Riga, on March 18, 1921, by which the Eastern frontiers of Poland were defined.
The Protocol between Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Rumania and the USSR regarding renunciation of war as an instrument of national policy, signed in Moscow on February 9, 1929.
The Non-Aggression Pact between Poland and the USSR signed in Moscow on July 25, 1932.
The Protocol signed in Moscow on May 5, 1934 between Poland and the USSR, extending until December 31, 1945, the Non-Aggression Pact of July 25, 1932.
The Convention for the Definition of Aggression signed in London on July 3, 1933.
Fine Fellows, don’t you think? Trustworthy, admirable, worthy of adulation.
Wait, don’t decide yet…there’s more “good deeds” to recount before we get to the sacrifice of the Soviet Union in fighting the Germans.
http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/eastbalt.htm
“On June 17th and 18th of 1940, hundreds of thousands of Red Army troops crossed the frontiers and took over the Baltic States.
Between July 14th and July 17th, "elections" were held in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Stalin had so many Baltic Communists killed in purges in 1936 and 1937 that he had trouble finding candidates. However, the Communist majorities were 92.8%, 97.8% and 99.19% respectively. Finally on August 5th, the Supreme Soviet very generously agreed to admit the three republics as constituent members of the USSR In this way three independent, prosperous and civilized countries vanished from the map of Europe.
Stalin was now in a position to implement 0RDER N 0. 001223. During the first year of Soviet occupation of Estonia more than 60,000 persons were killed or deported (on the night of June 13-14, 1941 more than 10,000 people were removed in a mass deportation). During 1941-1944 the Nazis occupied Estonia.
Before the Soviets returned in 1944, over 60,000 Estonians managed to escape from the country. In 1945-1946 Stalin deported another 20,000 people. On March 24-27, 1949, 70,000 more persons were deported.
These were mainly farmers who resisted collectivization.
In Lithuania, on the night of June 14-15, 1941, 30,455 members of the Lithuanian intelligentsia (national guard, civil servants etc.) were deported to Siberia. When the Germans advanced in 1941, Stalin had the approximately 5,000 political prisoners still held in Lithuanian jails executed. When the Nazis took over, approximately 170,000 Jews were exterminated. Before the Soviets returned in 1944, approximately 80,000 Lithuanians managed to escape, but 60,000 were deported to Siberia. In 1945 - 1946 approximately 145,000 Lithuanians were deported. Another 60,O00 were deported in March of 1949 because of collectivization.
During the Winter War the Finns lost 25,000 people fighting the Soviet Union. If they had given in to the Soviet demands, like the three other Baltic States, the chances are that they would have had over 400,000 people killed. It seems that they made the right decision, and at the same time saved the N K V D officers a lot of work.”
Wait! Don’t form an opinion yet! There’s more before the Soviets resist the evil Germans!
Remember Poland? There was a place called Kaytn Forest….
http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/eastbalt.htm
“Fifteen thousand Polish prisoners of war were taken illegally to the Soviet Union and kept in three camps, Kozielsk, Starobielsk and Ostashkov. Many of these people were officers. There were also many reserve officers consisting of University professors, surgeons, engineers, lawyers, teachers, journalists, etc…
When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, the Soviets suffered several military defeats. Their attitude towards the western allies and to Poland therefore changed. A Polish-Soviet treaty was signed in July of 1941 and the organization of a Polish Army in the Soviet Union was immediately begun. A thorough search was made for all Polish prisoners, but about 14,500 could not be found. They were not found until several of them were found by the Germans in mass graves at Katyn, near Smolensk, in April 1943….
The International Commission consisted of doctors from twelve different countries. The Findings were that 4,145 bodies were found in eight mass graves. All of them had been shot in the back of the head. The bodies still had on them personal belongings such as diaries, letters, newspapers, and other items all indicating that the crime took place in the second half of March or in April 1940. The evidence was overwhelming that it had been carried out by the NKVD under direct instructions from Moscow….
All the bodies found at Katyn were of people who came from the camp of Kozielsk. But what happened to the 10,000 or so other prisoners from the other two camps? There is no solid evidence, i.e. no bodies were found, but the inmates of the camp at Starobielsk are believed to have been taken to a place near Kharkov and murdered. The inmates from the camp of Ostashkov are believed to have been taken to the White Sea, put aboard two barges, towed out to sea, and the barges sunk.
Altogether the Soviets arrested 250,000 Polish soldiers. When the NKVD moved into Poland, using their usual methods, an estimated 1,500,000 Poles were deported, and within two years 270,000 were dead.”
Want a bit more? This is the same regime that aided the hated Nazis right up until the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.
http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/eastbalt.htm
“Probably Stalin's most successful propaganda coup of all was the propagation of the myth that Soviet territorial acquisitions in 1939 were designed to establish a forward strategic line in case of a German attack. This tale has received wide acceptance, but eighteen months later when Hitler launched his invasion, virtually nothing had been accomplished in the way of fortifications, defensive lines or military airfields to exploit ground gained by the Nazi-Soviet Pact. In fact, the national armies of Finland, Romania and the Baltic States would have protected Stalin's flanks. As it was, Finland and Romania were turned into effective allies of the Germans, and the Baltic States provided Hitler with excellent troops.
Hitler gained a great deal from the pact. Provision was made for the supply from Russia of a million tons of grain for cattle, 900,000 tons of mineral oil, 100,000 tons of cotton, 500,000 tons of phosphates, 100,000 tons of chrome ore, 500,000 tons of iron ore, 300,000 tons of scrap iron and pig iron, and numerous other commodities vital to the German war effort.
While Hitler was fighting Britain and France, the Soviet Union was supplying him with his raw materials. Not only that , but they were helping Hitler to break Britain's blockade by supplying rubber and other essential supplies by transporting them on the Trans-Siberian Railway. It is interesting to note that while Stalin was supplying Hitler with thousands of tons of grain, his own people were starving.
While the Soviet Union held back from joining Germany as a belligerent, she furnished Germany with military co-operation far beyond that which the United States was giving Britain at that time. The German navy was allowed facilities at Murmansk on a scale which contrasts favorably in many ways with restrictions placed on Allied use of the same port between 1941 and 1945.
The German liner "Bremen" found refuge there, as did a succession of blockade-breaking vessels; and measures violating international law were adopted by the Soviet authorities to allow the Germans to escape with a captured American merchant ship, "City of Flint".
German auxiliary cruisers were equipped at Murmansk for raids on British shipping.
More than this, the Soviets actually allowed Germany her own naval base on Soviet soil near Murmansk. It proved to be a valuable base for U-Boats operating in the North Sea, and played an important role helping supply Hitler's invasion of Norway. The Soviets helped a German raiding cruiser, "Schiff 45", to make her way through the ice around Siberia to the Pacific, where she sank and captured 64,000 tons of allied shipping. In this and other ways the Soviet Government lent enormous assistance to the otherwise extremely vulnerable German Navy.”
Of course, this is also the same regime that signed the 13 April 1941 Soviet-Japanese non-aggression pact. Perhaps the Japanese should have talked to the Poles first?
Just in time though, because on June 22, the “two thieves” fell out. Hitler’s Germany turned upon Stalin’s Soviet Union and the Soviets glorious chance to stop helping and start fighting the Germans finally arrived.
Eventually, the Soviets decisively beat the Germans.
When it was all over, this is the same regime that Poland, Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria came to know so well. But that’s another story.
Glorify who you will. Admire who you will. If this Regime is heroic to you, so be it.
Perhaps you can ignore the true nature of that Regime simply because when the “two thieves” finally had a falling out, one set of thieves and murderers helped defeat the other set of thieves and murderers that started the Second World War.
There are some really great Boroda threads. For great entertainment value, check out one called "Fifty Years" in the O-club. Comedy gold.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Let me have my own opinion on this subject blah blah
LOL now you are defending the purges?
Let me tell you one thing about the consequences of the purges. They are directly responsible for the abysmal performance of the soviet army in 1941. And the purges are directly responsible for the horrendous losses the red army took in ww2.
Let me elaborate some on this point.
In the Soviet army, small unit tactics and flexibility was not really a big thing. Two factors controlled how soviet units behaved. We can call these two factors "blame" and "necessity".
Necessity.
(these are general observations, there were of cource, as always, exceptions to the rule)
The soviet army was filled with very incompetent leaders. Nowhere was the Peter-principle more apparent than here. It is quite easy to understand why really. First you take the purges and you remove the leadership of the army. Then war comes and during the first 6 months you lose 90% of the standing army.
What happens to the leadership? Basically you have to promote people to positions they would never reach otherwise. The officer corps in 42 is filled with people who are barely litterate. This is why you have such a focus on larger units in the soviet union. Basically if we try to do a translation of intelligence/knowledge/ability between armies, a British sergeant is about as able as a soviet colonel.
There are occations in the early war where entire Soviet tank corps are lost in counterattacks in a way that really dont make any sense, until you look at that fact. The corps starts out intact and at full strenght, the reasons behind the attack is sound, they are advancing into the flanks of the German panzergruppe, they meet little resistance. And then 48 hours later, the entire corps is gone, taken out of action. Earlier these losses were attributed to various factors like Stukas and superior German tactics etc, but when you really look at what happened you note that these units...simply ran out of fuel.
Ok, so why is that? Well, suddenly we realize just how primitive the early soviet army is in its command structure, and how weak the officer material is. A German corps staff contains a G2 with a huge staff filled with colonels, majors, captains and NCOs who are well educated, and with loads of experience from rising through the ranks. They know what is required to have a panzercorps moving, they have calculated distances between fuel dumps, they know how many trucks they have moving from point A to B at any time, Things work like a well-oiled machinery.
On the soviet side, you have a colonel responsible for the same thing, he was a lieutenant perhaps a year ago. His staff consists of four guys, pretty recently taken from some backwater farm deep in the ukraine. They are barely litterate. They dont have any tools other than a few pencils and some sheets of paper. This group are supposed to handle all the supply planning for the tank corps. Its not that there is a shortage of fuel, its not that there is a shortage of trucks to transport the fuel, or a shortage of manpower. It fails for these reasons.
Which is why the soviet army becomes very standardized. After a few months of this, central planning at STAVKA takes over and issues specific orders that cover everything. If you are to attack a position, you will need these units, they will do these fire missions, at H Hour, these units will advance in this fashion, etc. It is necessary, it is very rough, very unflexible, but it works, at least better than before.
The soviets did alot of stuff in a very peciuliar manner. Nowhere is this more apparent than when looking at their offensive operations. Forget the human waves and blocking detachments. Those things were not as common as some people want you to believe, and they rarely took place outside some very desperate and/or incompetent counterattacks in 41.
As I have outlined earlier, the soviet army became heavily dependent on standardized rules and regulations. This was a really smart move by the soviets because of the general inaptitude of its officer corps, but it had the rather unfortunate side effects that it practically removed initiative, and it worked much like a wet blanket when it came to evolving tactics in the later period of the war. Also soviet units became very unable to handle surprises.
There were two main parts of the red army, the rifle forces and mechanized forces. Rifle forces were dominant and provided the structure of lines and provided mass for attacks. On their shoulders also fell the task of making breaktrhroughs. Mech (tank) forces were numerically much smaller, by an order of magnitude smaller, but much better equipped. They did most of the attacking after the first break in, and a fair portion of the defensive fighting as reaction reserves.
There were all sorts of specialist unit types, which were generally put into the formations they were supposed to work with as attachments, each an echelon level smaller than the unit they supported. So an anti-tank brigade was attached to a rifle division, an artillery division was attached to an army...etc.
But to a much greater extent than other armies, they also pooled these an echelon level or two higher, and then assigned them to larger formations than usual, to bump up their combined arms ratio in this or that category.
This was effectively a method of centralizing the force composition decision at a higher level, typically army. Thus, for example Anti-Aircraft would be organized in divisions of 4 regiments, where each regiment had enough guns to protect a single division sector, by pushing their battery subcomponents down to regiments.
So why did the do this? Back to the inability of the soviet officer corps. By using anti-aircraft in a division-scale, you effectively put the decision "where does the AA go?" in the hands of the army commander or his chief of staff. He might delegate regiments to each of his divisions but he might instead concentrate it on a single sector or use most of it to cover artillery positions or supply routes etc. But the important thing is ITS HIS CALL. Someone at least somewhat competent makes the desicion. The same was done with AT formations, 120mm mortar formations, rocket formations, larger caliber artillery formations, motorcycle recon formations, etc.
blame
Now here comes the beautiful part. Or maybe more correctly, the logical conclusion of whats been said before.
The red army offensive was simply put, very simple and very strict. The one "tactic" on the offense was to assume column formation on the lower elements and then attack forward in echelon waves. This does not mean "human wave", no, it means probe on a narrow front with a full strength unit, typically matching or outnumbering the defenders.
The attacking units move as close to the enemy as they can. When they are halted by fire they take what cover they can and fire back, as well as calling for all forms of support.
The next wave then tries on the same portion of the front. Repeat until the enemy is defeated or there is only one attackwave left. The last wave does not attack, but digs in and holds whatever is safely captured after the earlier waves.
Now, this "tactic" amounts to something that is generally frowned upon...reinforcing failure. The German regarded it as the height of mindless stupidity, idiocy, wanton disregard of human life, folly, retardedness, stubborness, you get the idea. Any reading of German military leaders after the war will give you the same picture...those retarded but brave soviets.
The tactic is really a basic attrition tactic, adapted to modern combined arms conditions. But why was this good for the red army? Well, again, because this demanded very little from the officers involved from division level and down. Attacks were planned from the rear at a high level, and expected to produce definite results that the rest of the plan depended on.
Now, here is where the blame game comes into play.
It was not acceptable in such plans for various units to report that comrade, the situation does not look good in this sector, maybe we should try somewhere else. Nor could a successful lower unit call everyone to follow him and expect to be listened to, or even heard.
The high level commander was responsible for giving his units doable missions and for providing them the mix of weapons they would need to succeed...in theory. The lower commander was responsible for something aking close to laying his ship alongside the enemy...that is, fight as hard as he can on the terms given by his superior.
A plan needed both to work, but the difference in responsibility is crystal clear, and very strictly enforced. This means, to put it plainly that the lower commander who failed to attack, or pulled back would be shot. While a higher commander who gave a crappy order which really was not achievable with the forces he had provided would be stripped of rank, relieved or shot.
Now here comes the beautiful part with this system.
The lower commander was not responsible for success but for making the attempt. This guy only had to try. And to prove that he had tried hard enough, all he had to do was present a large casualty figure. That, absurdly enough, excused failure, and shifted the responsibility for that failiure up one level in the hierarchy of command up to the guy who ordered the attack.
On the lower level, success was always welcome in the red army, but not really a prerequisite. Failure in the mission without debiliating losses to explain why the attempt had failed or to demonstrate that it had been undoable, was inexcusable though, and quite lethal.
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I find Boroda as amusing as anybody, but why was a thread titled "I hate Russia" allowed to be started in the oclub in the first place. We can ignore the oclub rules now ?
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Enemy turned to flooding. Last resort.
Hortlund, what is the source for the hallucinations you posted? "Human waves and blocking detachments" - next please.
Everyone picturing a "blocking detachment" shooting attacking soldiers in the back is a sick propaganda victim. Go jerk off on "Enemy at the gates" one more time.
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Originally posted by Suave
I find Boroda as amusing as anybody, but why was a thread titled "I hate Russia" allowed to be started in the oclub in the first place. We can ignore the oclub rules now ?
Hating Russia is OK, especially for semi-literate Swedes who still miss their Finnish slaves.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Enemy turned to flooding. Last resort.
Hortlund, what is the source for the hallucinations you posted? "Human waves and blocking detachments" - next please.
Everyone picturing a "blocking detachment" shooting attacking soldiers in the back is a sick propaganda victim. Go jerk off on "Enemy at the gates" one more time.
Read the entire post Boroda. Im actually saying that human wave attacks and blocking detachments were not really that common at all. But they did happen on some occations, especially in 1941.
I suppose I should not have expected the decensy from you to actually read my post before you call me names, but to the rest of you participating in this thread, please read it, its quite interesting, it explains alot about the performance of the soviet army...and it took almost an hour to type.
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Another thing to remember is that the soviet offensive doctrin even in the mid- and late war meant that an attack must have looked like a human wave-attack to the defender.
Simply because the doctrin calls for a massed infantry attack on a narrow front.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Another thing to remember is that the soviet offensive doctrin even in the mid- and late war meant that an attack must have looked like a human wave-attack to the defender.
Simply because the doctrin calls for a massed infantry attack on a narrow front.
Sources please. I'd prefer quotes from Soviet field regulations.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Read the entire post Boroda. Im actually saying that human wave attacks and blocking detachments were not really that common at all. But they did happen on some occations, especially in 1941.
Order 227, with an idea of "blocking detachments" was issued in Summer 1942. Supreme Command simply copied German experience with blocking detachments, it's mentioned in that order.
JFYI: Blocking detachments were used to catch deserters who left their positions without weapons. "Blooby NKVD" shooting soldiers in the back is a typical Western hallucination. If you watch that famous scene from Enemy at the Gates, you'll probably wonder why NKVD bastards (BTW, why NKVD? They were regular Army troops) will be lifted on bayonets in a matter of seconds after they start shooting.
Originally posted by Hortlund
I suppose I should not have expected the decensy from you to actually read my post before you call me names, but to the rest of you participating in this thread, please read it, its quite interesting, it explains alot about the performance of the soviet army...and it took almost an hour to type.
So it's just a work of your imagination? You type quite fast, WTG.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sources please. I'd prefer quotes from Soviet field regulations.
I cant pin point a source just like that since this knowledge comes from reading a ****load of books about the eastern front. Frankly Im quite surprised that you are trying to deny or stonewall this, since its pretty common knowledge once you pass a certain point of knowledge on ww2 on the eastern front.
I can however give you examples from history to give you an idea what a late-war soviet offensive looks like.
Lets take this one, since I happen to know quite a bit about it.
Iasi-Kischinjow offensive, August 1944, 3rd Ukrainian Front (under Gen Tolbuchin)
Main effort is in the sector of the 37th Army. The 37th Army has a 4km wide breakthrough frontage assigned to it. It is divided in two groupings, two corps at the front, one corps in reserve. According to plan, it is supposed to break through the depth of the German/Romanian defense in 7 days, to a distance of 110-120km, with the distance to be covered in the first four days 15km each.
66th Rifle Corps consis of two groupings (61st Guards RD, 333rd RD up, 244th RD reserve). Attached are 46th Gun Artillery Brigade, 152nd Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 184th and 1245th Tank Destroyer Regiment, 10th Mortar Regiment, 26th Light Artillery Brigade, 87th Recoilless Mortar Regiment, 92nd and 52nd Tank Regiment, 398th Assault Gun Regiment, two Pioneer Assault Battalions, and two Light Flamethrower Companies.
Lets look at this Corps. It has a frontage of 4 km. Its breakthrough frontage is 3.5km, divided into 61st RD 1.5km and 333rd RD 2km. This gives:
Densities per kilometer of frontage:
Rifle battalions 7.7
Guns/mortars 248
Tanks and assault guns 18
And in hindsight we can note that the soviet superiority here is:
Infantry 3-1
Artillery 7-1
Tanks and assault guns 11-1
There is no man-power information for the divisions, so we expect them to have between 7,000 - 7,500 men each, 61st GRD maybe 8,000-9,000. The soldiers were prepared over the course of August by exercising in areas similar to those they had to attack, and being brought up to speed on special tactics needed to overcome the enemy in their sector.
And then we look at their units
61st GRD sector
per kilometer of frontage:
Rifle battalions 6.0
Guns/mortars 234
Tanks and assault guns 18
Density in 333rd RD sector per kilometer of frontage:
Rifle battalions 4.5
Guns/mortars 231
Tanks and assault guns 18
[/B]
So, we are looking at 6 battalions of infantry per kilometer of front-line. Im sure you can appreciate what that attack looks like to the German/Romanian defenders when it comes. 5-800 men per batallion gives 4 800 men per kilometer...or ~5 guys/meter. Naturally they will attack the normal soviet fashion in waves, meaning we divide this by three. But still we get more than one guy/meter. Along a 3,5 kilometer wide section of the front...you do the math Boroda.
And then you can ponder over this:
About an hour later the scene that lay before me and my subordinates changed sharply, transposed into something one could not imagine in his worst nightmare. Small groups of soldiers appeared in the buckwheat field some 900 meters ahead. They were running towards us, clearly intending to seek cover in the forest... One did not have to be a genius to understand that a Soviet Army infantry unit, unable to withstand the powerful enemy attack, had abandonded it's positions. This was the first time I had witnessed such an unusual event. I had no idea what to do in this situation.
Several minutes later I recieved categorical instructions: Fire at the retreating Soviet troops! I broke out in a feverish sweat. How could this be? Shoot at our own troops? The battalion commander came running up to my tank, and again he ordered, "Fire! Fire with machine-guns!"
An order is an order. It has to be carried out. With breaking voice I gave the command. "First platoon, fire over the heads of the infantry! Second platoon, set up a fire screen in front of the retreating soldiers!"
It came to me reflexively that we could create a situation where the fleeing soldiers would be forced to stop running and hit the ground...
Six Bren coaxial machine-guns tore the air with long bursts. The stream of tracer bullets whistled over the unorganized formation of retreating troops... In front of the fleeing troops was a 'fence' of mangled greenery and clods of dirt that had been created by the machine-gun bursts. To fall into the beaten zone would be a quick and certain death...
In the blink of an eye the panicked troops were forced to take cover by falling flat on the earth... I commanded, "Cease fire!" Quiet ensued; then suddenly several soldiers stood up and once again plunged toward the rear. First platoon's Brens barked in short bursts. The running soldiers flopped down in the buckwheat. Several minutes passed with no signs of movement in the field... The infantry commanders appeared on the scene and barked out brusque orders. The infantrymen got up and made their way back toward the river in a straggling formation.
As we discovered later, the tank machine-gun fire had struck seven soldiers, whom we left at their last, inglorious frontline position. This is the kind of death that came to some of the Soviet soldiers in that war.
My nerves were frazzled, and my head ached. I would not wish such a condition on my enemy. Half a century has passed since that incident, but every moment of the experience is deeply etched into my memory. By the will of fate and the order of Stalin, we had to execute the role of barrier detachment: We were forced to use our weapons against our fellow soldiers.
Lt. Dmitriy Loza, 233rd Tank Brigade, 1st Batt., 1st coy. (mounting Lend Lease Matilda II's), near Kirov, 13 August 1943; recounting an incident from his first day of actual combat.
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You probably won't see it in Soviet field regulations....
While NONE of the nations of WWII were ANGELS (Even British & American troops)
But the following is very sad...
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As the Red Army advanced toward her in 1945, the city of Berlin had become a city virtually without men. Out of a civilian population of 2,700,000, 2,000,000 were women. It is small wonder that the fear of sexual attack raced through the city like a plague. Doctors were besieged by patients seeking information on the quickest way to commit suicide, and poison was in great demand.
In Berlin stood a charity institution, the Haus Dehlem, an orphanage, maternity hospital, and foundling home. Soviet soldiers entered the home, and repeatedly raped pregnant women and women who had just given birth. This was not an isolated incident. No one will ever know how many women were raped, but doctors' estimates run as high as 100,000 for the city of Berlin alone, their ages ranging from 10 to 70.
On March 24, 1945, our "noble Soviet allies" entered Danzig. A 50-year-old Danzig teacher reported that her niece, 15, was raped seven times, and her other niece, 22, was raped fifteen times. A Soviet officer told a group of women to seek safety in the Cathedral. Once they were securely locked inside, the Soviets entered, and ringing the bells and playing the organ, "celebrated" a foul orgy through the night, raping all the women, some more than thirty times. A Catholic pastor in Danzig declared, "They violated even eight-year-old girls and shot boys who tried to shield their mothers."
The Most Reverend Bernard Griffin, British Archbishop, made a tour of Europe to study conditions there, and reported, "In Vienna alone they raped 100,000 women, not once but many times, including girls not yet in their teens, and aged women."
A Lutheran pastor in Germany, in a letter of August 7, 1945, to the Bishop of Chichester, England, describes how a fellow pastor's "two daughters and a grandchild (ten years of age) suffer from gonorrhea, [as a] result of rape" and how "Mrs. N. was killed when she resisted an attempt to rape her," while her daughter was "raped and deported, allegedly to Omsk, Siberia, for indoctrination."
The day after our noble Soviet allies conquered Neisse, Silesia, 182 Catholic nuns were raped. In the diocese of Kattowitz 66 pregnant nuns were counted. In one convent when the Mother Superior and her assistant tried to protect the younger nuns with outstretched arms, they were shot down. A priest reported in Nord Amerika magazine for November 1, 1945, that he knew "several villages where all the women, even the aged and girls as young as twelve, were violated daily for weeks by the Russians."
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Stories just like this were confirmed to me by my neighbors who as refugees, found there way to my hometown near Chicago.
One ex-Berliner I worked with at Johnson/OMC outboards in Waukegan, IL, was a rape victim...her story is too sick to repeat on this board.
In the course of human events, I pray that atrocities like that NEVER happen again.
68ROX
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Originally posted by Boroda
Look, I have told my opinion on current state of affairs. I understand your opinion. I am not in any way a fan of comrade Putin.
My point is: both systems were equally good or bad. Now it's history, and I don't want people who planned to burn us with cold blood (and I am absolutely sure they'll never hesitate if they'll see a 50% probability of success) throw **** at my Counrty, at the people who defeated nazis and then built up our country from ashes to face the threat of a nuclear holocaust only because they wanted to live their own way.
Nobody likes **** thrown at their country, Beard, especially by an outsider whose practical understanding of the deeper condition of your people, their tragedies, their struggles and their approach to history, is hopelessly outweighed by his bitterness. Anybody that wishes for the evaporation of your ethnicity, or for anarchy to descend upon the streets that you walk every day is probably not worth the breath you're going to waste trying to rebut him.
That being said, as a Russian, and as a free-thinking person in general, I tend to disagree with your perspective on things. As I mentioned earlier, my grandfather, also named Pavel, is the only one I've ever met in person who would agree with your support of the old ways. But then, he is about 70 years older than you, and 73 years older than me. His thinking, as sharp as it remains, is outdated and more than slightly deluded.
I've lived in the States for most of my life, and thus will never call my place of birth 'home'. But Russia will always be my Rodina. It, and its people, as flawed as they are, will always occupy a place in my heart. I have sympathy for them and their situation, even though my own family felt the wrath of the very system which turned Russia into a Superpower. If anything, having the Russian experience thoroughly engraved in my mind helps to give perspective when approaching other nations and ethnicities.
What I do not understand is the systematic filing and comparison of attrocities in an effort to prove who was the worst ever. One person gives examples of Russian attrocities on Germans, another retorts with German attrocities on Russians. What's the point? Can anybody here say, with a straight face, that there's a group of innocent people that suffered more than the Russians in WWII? More than the Jews? More than the Germans? More than the Japanese? Is the suffering of any one group more significant, more meaningful than that of any other? And conversely, do any of the attrocities committed by the Russians, Germans, Japanese, or anyone else involved fall short of extreme?
Suffering and death, as well as cruelty, of that magnitude, is horrendous to the maximum degree. All aforementioned parties endured 100% of what a group of humans could or should ever have to endure. All oppressors oppressed to an equal degree. There is no worse thing. Comparing 100,000 raped and murdered against 120,000 raped and murdered in an effort to see who won or lost the game of 'less cruel aggressor' is a futile mockery of everyone who lived, or died there.
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Again, I think the point is that there is nothing but denial.
Way back in this thread it was about shooting down aircraft in international airspace.
Ask any American about the Vincennes/Iran Air incident and they will tell you it was a terrible mistake, that our military screwed the pooch, that we wish it had never happened and that procedures should be taken to try and ensure it never happens again.
Ask a Russian about KAL 007 and you either hear crickets or you hear those bastards were in our sacred airspace and deserved to die. The same is said about aircraft that were clearly NOT in the sacred airspace but in international airspace.
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Originally posted by Toad
Again, I think the point is that there is nothing but denial.
Way back in this thread it was about shooting down aircraft in international airspace.
Ask any American about the Vincennes/Iran Air incident and they will tell you it was a terrible mistake, that our military screwed the pooch, that we wish it had never happened and that procedures should be taken to try and ensure it never happens again.
Ask a Russian about KAL 007 and you either hear crickets or you hear those bastards were in our sacred airspace and deserved to die. The same is said about aircraft that were clearly NOT in the sacred airspace but in international airspace.
Kal 007 was a terrible mistake, and if it wasn't a mistake, it was a crime for which those responsible deserved and deserve punishment. Airspace is not more important than human life, and national pride is not more important than justice.
These are the words of a Russian.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Kal 007 was a terrible mistake, and if it wasn't a mistake, it was a crime for which those responsible deserved and deserve punishment. Airspace is not more important than human life, and national pride is not more important than justice.
These are the words of a Russian.
The problem is that KAL 007 is not an isolated incident. There are litterary dozens of examples of russian forces opening fire on aircraft in international airspace.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
The problem is that KAL 007 is not an isolated incident. There are litterary dozens of examples of russian forces opening fire on aircraft in international airspace.
KAL 007 was shot in Soviet airspace. If it indeed was a 747, not an RC-135. That story will probably never disclosed, according to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down over Sakhalin that morning. How can anyone explain that there were no human bodies found in the wreck? only clothes and shoes in factory packages, never worn... I sell it for the same money I bought it, bit it was mentioned in Izvestia's articles in early-90s, when the overall attitude was "ohoh bloody commies amen Americans will save us and show us the Way!".
Whatever Toad will say - RC-135s were violating Soviet airspace several times every week, and using poor Koreans as a sitting duck for testing PVO sequences was a bright idea, someone probably got promoted... :mad: And the propaganda effect was enormous.
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Dear Boroda.
Thank you for the link to this book, I will probably buy it.
Although the author is a non-Russian it does not validate it. David Irving is also a Brit, and what he writes is mostly a load of crap, but with a few points in it.
Sort of like many of your posts.
You can try all day to convince me that the USSR had to invade Finland, annex the Baltic states, and share Poland with Hitler for the USSR defensive side, - but I don't fall for that.
I think USSR was wanting a Communist Europe, and used every chesspiece and excuse to try to get it that way. With or without force, the goal was one.
It must have disappointed the USSR in the pre-war years, - i.e. after Hitler took power and before the Ribbentropf-Molotov pact that I told you about, that the British tried to keep a non-war and disarming atmosphere. The British actually went into disarmament (periodically) themselves in the late 1930's. Silly them.
So, of course the USSR had to defend from Hitler by invasion, annex, sharing and trade.
Some way to make allies I say.
Making war with Finland definately strengthened Russian lines and troops. War and annex definately raised the status of the USSR amongst other nations. And selling materials to Hitler definately strengthened USSR material balance and defence against him.
Anyway, lesson out, and I wish you a good day.
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Originally posted by Neubob
These are the words of a Russian.
Originally posted by Neubob
I've lived in the States for most of my life, and thus will never call my place of birth 'home'. But Russia will always be my Rodina.
[/b]
No offense but those two statements don't really match up.
I think you know what I'm getting out. The two current Russians in this thread don't think the way you or I do about KAL 007 and all the rest of the many, many, many people who died in international airspace.
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Originally posted by Boroda
KAL 007 was shot in Soviet airspace. If it indeed was a 747, not an RC-135. That story will probably never disclosed, according to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down over Sakhalin that morning. How can anyone explain that there were no human bodies found in the wreck? only clothes and shoes in factory packages, never worn... I sell it for the same money I bought it, bit it was mentioned in Izvestia's articles in early-90s, when the overall attitude was "ohoh bloody commies amen Americans will save us and show us the Way!".
Whatever Toad will say - RC-135s were violating Soviet airspace several times every week, and using poor Koreans as a sitting duck for testing PVO sequences was a bright idea, someone probably got promoted... :mad: And the propaganda effect was enormous.
This is amazing. You are just making **** up, and then use the made-up **** to fake anger at the US. "According to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down over Sakhalin that morning"...priceless.
Why were no bodies found? Well, hmm...could it have something to do with the fact that the soviets lied about where the aircraft was shot down, and therefore had unlimited access to the wreckage for several days?
KAL 007 was shot down in soviet airspace, yes. A passenger jet was shot down in soviet airspace. A boeing 747 was deliberately shot down by the soviets because it had crossed into soviet airspace.
How Reagan was right, you really are the evil empire.
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What I do not understand is the systematic filing and comparison of attrocities in an effort to prove who was the worst ever. One person gives examples of Russian attrocities on Germans, another retorts with German attrocities on Russians. What's the point? Can anybody here say, with a straight face, that there's a group of innocent people that suffered more than the Russians in WWII? More than the Jews? More than the Germans? More than the Japanese? Is the suffering of any one group more significant, more meaningful than that of any other? And conversely, do any of the attrocities committed by the Russians, Germans, Japanese, or anyone else involved fall short of extreme?
Suffering and death, as well as cruelty, of that magnitude, is horrendous to the maximum degree. All aforementioned parties endured 100% of what a group of humans could or should ever have to endure. All oppressors oppressed to an equal degree. There is no worse thing. Comparing 100,000 raped and murdered against 120,000 raped and murdered in an effort to see who won or lost the game of 'less cruel aggressor' is a futile mockery of everyone who lived, or died there.
Nicely put Neubob, and I couldnt agree more!!
:aok
Wurzel
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Neubob, I hate to see that my country is turned into a scapegoat, idiots all around repeating that Russia is the source of all evil in the world and even compare it to nazi Germany. People seem to have TV antenna installed instead of a brain, repeating such obvious nonsense as "62 million people killed by commies in USSR".
As Ian Anderson sang: "I may make you feel but I can't make you think" :(
Ignorance is power this days. Reading a book or two that will give reasonable explanations instead of "Russians are naturally evil" or "Stalin just enjoyed killing people" is out of question, TV rulez, they can't lie. And they call _me_ brainwashed, while I have read all their book plus some Soviet once.
I watched a TV programm on History Channel in Australia, about Eastern Front. They had Soviet veterans speaking, with English subtitles. They edited some prepositions, used "almost-synonyms" instead of some words and changed what Veterans said 180 degrees... Made them look as bloodthirsty monsters. So it goes.
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Originally posted by Boroda
according to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down
And what about the other studies?
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Originally posted by Boroda
KAL 007 was shot in Soviet airspace. If it indeed was a 747, not an RC-135.....
.....Whatever Toad will say - RC-135s were violating Soviet airspace several times every week, and using poor Koreans as a sitting duck for testing PVO sequences was a bright idea, someone probably got promoted... :mad: And the propaganda effect was enormous.
This is exactly what I am talking about. If you read the transcript on the Russian side of the KAL 007 transcript, you'll see the head guy, who was late promoted to command of the entire Soviet AF, was absolutely frantic when they didn't shoot the 747 down when it first crossed Soviet airspace and was in international airspace once again. Then it entered Soviet airspace over a tiny flyspeck island and the guy goes nuts trying to hurry the fighter into shooting. Blood lust.
As for it being an RC-135. Nope. The RC community was and still is very small. I would have heard. Didn't happen.
As for RC's violating Soviet airspace... pure BS. Two very senior navigators on board, a stellar/inertial astrotracker accurate to 1/8 mile after 10 hours of flight, separate position crosschecks every 30 minutes using completely different sources for info, all radar recorded on film and scored after every mission. Any crew that got inside 12 miles would have lost their job at best.
Of course, I think the Soviets claimed sovereign airspace 200 miles out from the coastline back then, so from their POV you were in their airspace at 100 miles. Too bad ICAO did not agree.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
This is amazing. You are just making **** up, and then use the made-up **** to fake anger at the US. "According to some studies there were at least 3 planes shot down over Sakhalin that morning"...priceless.
Why were no bodies found? Well, hmm...could it have something to do with the fact that the soviets lied about where the aircraft was shot down, and therefore had unlimited access to the wreckage for several days?
KAL 007 was shot down in soviet airspace, yes. A passenger jet was shot down in soviet airspace. A boeing 747 was deliberately shot down by the soviets because it had crossed into soviet airspace.
How Reagan was right, you really are the evil empire.
And we also crucified Christ. Didn't Gorbachev say it? I thought he provided some documental proof to Poland and Poles classified it immediately. :D
Look for "Incident at Sakhalin; the True Mission of KLA Flight 007" by Michelle Brun. An interesting book, but has to be taken with a grain of salt.
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Originally posted by Toad
No offense but those two statements don't really match up.
[/B]
Sure they do.
I am Russian by birth, American by citizenship and residency. I consider both Russians and Americans as countrymen, and generally see their side of the coin before I see any other. When it comes to conflict between the two, I generally identify with the Americans because, quite frankly, they've been kinder and fairer to me and those important to me.
I guess it may not make sense to all, but it does to me.
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An exerpt from the book "Uncovering Soviet Disasters" by James Oberg:
All these incidents were only preludes to the worst air-
p. 46------------------
tragedy of the Soviet borders, the destruction of Korean Air Lines Flight 007 on September 1, 1983, with the loss of 269 lives. Although the Soviets claimed complete justification, while many Western groups saw it as a deliberate Communist atrocity, careful reconstruction of the incident makes it appear instead to be the worst foul-up of Soviet air defense technology in USSR history. The ultimate guilt is unavoidable: The Soviets shot to kill, all right, but irresponsibly they weren't careful to determine at whom they were shooting. All their expensive equipment and operators never provided data sufficiently convincing to dissuade them from their original instinctive (and wrong) judgment that the blip was an "American aggressor."
The bare facts of the September 1, 1983, KAL 007 disaster have been established, despite attempts by the Soviets and some assorted Western conspiracy enthusiasts to deflect responsibility. As with many airliners before and since, Flight 007 went off course through some unlikely but plausible combination of human errors and equipment problems. Tragically the accidental course deviation put it over Soviet territory.
The Soviets had numerous opportunities to identify the "bogey" as a lost civilian airliner but were unable to fulfill their responsibilities. As the airliner crossed the Kamchatka Peninsula, Soviet interceptors failed to reach it and make visual contact. Later, over Sakhalin Island, the Soviet pilots also nearly missed their intercept. When they finally caught up, there were only minutes remaining before the plane exited Soviet airspace.
In the rush the Soviet pilot let off a burst of cannon fire from a position behind and below the "target," where it was physically impossible for the Koreans to see it. No radio calls were heard by anyone in the area on the specified distress frequency of 121.5 megahertz. At one point the Russian pilot was abreast of (and a bit below) the airliner, but despite earlier experience with American RC-135s, he failed to notice -- or report -- the obvious visual differences (mostly in the running lights). This was especially true since the airliner's lights were flashing brightly, hardly the behavior of a stealthy intruder (to refute this obvious deduction, the Soviets later merely lied about the plane's flying "without lights").
With the border approaching and without ever having performed a proper communications procedure, the Soviets fell into the same routine as they had with the lost Argentine
p. 47 -----------
airliner two years earlier. The pilot, call sign "805," followed in the tradition of Kulyapin, Vegin, Yeliseyev, and nameless others. When in doubt, attack to kill. Don't let the "enemy" escape.
And that, horribly, is just what happened. Amazingly there were many people in the West who were surprised. Predictable, too, were the impassioned pronouncements that the Soviets must have known they were killing innocents when another appalling interpretation was that they didn't know--or care--at whom they were shooting, even though they should have been able to determine the aircraft's innocence. Presumption of guilt is easier and safer, at least from the Soviet point of view.
With KAL 007 and the other incidents, a pattern of Soviet claims is apparent. How is a dispassionate observer able to gauge the reliability of Soviet accounts when its side usually has the only surviving witnesses?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
The problem is that KAL 007 is not an isolated incident. There are litterary dozens of examples of russian forces opening fire on aircraft in international airspace.
And horrible as that may be, those acts are not representative of the ideals and beliefs of every individual Russian. If you dig a little deeper, and maybe speak to some Russians who've lived outside of Russia, I think you'll find that they're not too different from you, and will be more likely to agree than disagree with your views of their leadership.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
So, we are looking at 6 battalions of infantry per kilometer of front-line. Im sure you can appreciate what that attack looks like to the German/Romanian defenders when it comes. 5-800 men per batallion gives 4 800 men per kilometer...or ~5 guys/meter. Naturally they will attack the normal soviet fashion in waves, meaning we divide this by three. But still we get more than one guy/meter. Along a 3,5 kilometer wide section of the front...you do the math Boroda.
Yes they all come in formations to be shot down by machineguns, 5 guys per meter.
Are you serious or just kidding me?
In 1944 Soviet infantry advanced after the "wave of fire", supported by tanks that crushed what was left of enemy defense lines. LOL human waves in Yassy-Caeshinau operation! :D
Originally posted by Hortlund
And then you can ponder over this:
Translation is far from perfect, but generally: what's wrong about that? Stopping retreating infantry, like cold shower. Germans did exactly the same things. Better to leave them to be killed defenseless?
I don't think it was a common practice, look how surprised and disappointed the tank commander is.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
An exerpt from the book "Uncovering Soviet Disasters" by James Oberg:
Why not "Russians killed my nurse"?
Rip, Osipovich identified KAL007 as a "4-engined plane", that's all.
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Originally posted by Neubob
And horrible as that may be, those acts are not representative of the ideals and beliefs of every individual Russian. If you dig a little deeper, and maybe speak to some Russians who've lived outside of Russia, I think you'll find that they're not too different from you, and will be more likely to agree than disagree with your views of their leadership.
I think it's not a surprise that Russians who live outside usually disagree with what is/was going on here. I mean - if you enjoyed everything here - then why leave? Everyone has his beliefs and his own life, people have reasons to emigrate, so it goes.
Back in 1983 Soviet people didn't dance in the streets screaming "Wooohooo we shot them down! Killed 250 people! Cool!". I remember that day quite well. People were like "Oh my!..." and for the first time I felt like I am scared of the new war...
I remember Osipovich's interview on TV, he was pale and had his hands trembling. Later he said he shot 200ml glass of vodka before the interview, it's not easy to realize that you just killed 250 people. He didn't hesitate, he was a fighter pilot, eager to shoot, but later when he understood what he have done...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Why not "Russians killed my nurse"?
Rip, Osipovich identified KAL007 as a "4-engined plane", that's all.
Yes, I'm sure he couldn't see the flashing navigation lights. Those navigation lights are a dead give-a-way that its a secret stealth spy plane. :rofl
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Originally posted by Boroda
Yes they all come in formations to be shot down by machineguns, 5 guys per meter.
Are you serious or just kidding me?
[/b]
No, Im quite serious. And from the looks of things, I know more about these things than you. Its quite easy to look at the formations involved, the length of frontage of the attack, and the soviet doctrine at the time. Like I said, the units will attack in waves, 3 lines each. Then we take into account the fact that the units involved will not march upright, but rather use a sort of rush, which will break up the units involved.
But you have to remember here that what this part of the discussion is about is my claim that for the defenders, a soviet attack would easily look like a human wave-type attack. And that is merely a function of the number of troops involved in a small frontage.
In 1944 Soviet infantry advanced after the "wave of fire", supported by tanks that crushed what was left of enemy defense lines. LOL human waves in Yassy-Caeshinau operation! :D
You do understand that "infantry advanced after artillery, supported by tanks" does in no way contradict what I have said about this offensive. Perhaps this is merely a missunderstanding of english from your part?
Translation is far from perfect, but generally: what's wrong about that? Stopping retreating infantry, like cold shower. Germans did exactly the same things. Better to leave them to be killed defenseless?
I don't think it was a common practice, look how surprised and disappointed the tank commander is.
Im not sure you realize this or not, but the quote is an example of a blocking detachment-action. The thing you claimed was made up just a few posts ago.
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Originally posted by storch
karaya why are you calling him a pathological liar?
let me explain something to us all about the truth since the fall of man.
think of the truth as if it were a mirror. since the fall of man that perfect mirror was shattered and now everyone has a sliver of that truth. many find a shard and claim loudly I HAVE THE TRUTH. in fact all of can only hope to ever have but a small piece of the truth. absolute truth belongs absolutely to God. neither you nor I nor boroda have the truth but mere slivers of it.
I just started reading this thread but BRAVO :aok
I've worked with Russians before and my wifes maid of honor emigrated from Russia.
Every time I've dealt with a person of Russian nationality it's been a pleasure.
Communism I don't care for because I don't see it working, haven't seen it work, and think it's fundamentally flawed. Democracy has it's own issues as well but I think it's a much better system of government.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Drop Shot plan. Also see Fleetwood, Charioter, and succeeding plans and documents. Drop Shot plan was disclosed in late-60s. And yes, it projected up to 50% losses for SAC bombers. As well as killing about 10 million Soviet civilians in first two weeks.
Funny that there is almost no information available about this plans on the Net.
The only thing I found on Dropshot:
http://alsos.wlu.edu/information.aspx?id=2310
This book is the U.S. war plan drawn up by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1949, declassified in 1977, for a war initiated by the Soviet Union on January 1, 1957, a date arbitrarily set for planning. The plan called for defending the Western Hemisphere and Western Europe, while a massive atomic and conventional bombing campaign against key targets within the Soviet Union during the first three months of the war destroyed the Soviet Union’s ability to conduct the war. After that was achieved, a massive offensive would be directed at the Soviet Union with the purpose of occupying the entire country. The editor provides an introduction offering historical context and also contributes numerous notes throughout the text, which explain, analyze, and offer additional information, some not known at the time that the plan was written.
On Fleetwood:
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj96/fall96/mcfarlnd.html
The Joint Intelligence Staff assumed that war would most probably result from a Soviet invasion of Western Europe and admitted the impossibility of stopping 213 Soviet divisions plus 84 more from satellite nations.10 The Air Force offered the only reasonable option-a relatively cheap atomic offensive, low in American casualties. Secretary Symington stated it most succinctly: "We can't swap the life of one of ours for each soldier of the many millions under arms in the totalitarian states.
These were contingency plans, (plans made in advance) in the event that the Soviets attacked Western Europe. They were not plans to initiate the war.
It is wise to have plans in place to defend oneself against perceived threats. The Pentagon is constantly making new contingency plans and revising old ones. Just because this is a truth it does not mean NATO was planning on destroying the USSR.
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And horrible as that may be, those acts are not representative of the ideals and beliefs of every individual Russian.
I don't think folks are saying that is the case. Your average Russian citizen is pretty much like any American, we just want to live our lives in peace.
I think most of the references to the Russians or USSR is a reference to their government and not the average citizen. In much the same way that folks from other countries say....You Americans were wrong for invading Iraq....I think they are speaking about our government being wrong and not Jane/Joe American.
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What I do not understand is the systematic filing and comparison of attrocities in an effort to prove who was the worst ever. One person gives examples of Russian attrocities on Germans, another retorts with German attrocities on Russians. What's the point? Can anybody here say, with a straight face, that there's a group of innocent people that suffered more than the Russians in WWII? More than the Jews? More than the Germans? More than the Japanese? Is the suffering of any one group more significant, more meaningful than that of any other? And conversely, do any of the attrocities committed by the Russians, Germans, Japanese, or anyone else involved fall short of extreme?
Suffering and death, as well as cruelty, of that magnitude, is horrendous to the maximum degree. All aforementioned parties endured 100% of what a group of humans could or should ever have to endure. All oppressors oppressed to an equal degree. There is no worse thing. Comparing 100,000 raped and murdered against 120,000 raped and murdered in an effort to see who won or lost the game of 'less cruel aggressor' is a futile mockery of everyone who lived, or died there.
Very well said Nuebob, very well said. I think it's ok to discuss the various things that happened in our world's history. It is also human nature to compare the various disasters that have happened whether those disasters are caused by man or by nature. When they are caused by man, many times they are classified as atrocities.
Take for example earthquakes. When a particularly nasty earthquake comes along such as the one in the Pacific recently that cause the tidal waves that killed several hundred thousand people. The news media right away started comparing it to past earthquakes and people all over the world are like....OMIGOSH! :O :O
Where this thread is different is one side of the *argument* is showing particular facts about Russia and the old USSR and going :O :O . The other side is in complete denial that those things even happened in many instances. It's the denial that is keeping this thread going and going and going like the Energizer Bunny.
*edit* fixed quote tags. :D
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Originally posted by Elfie
I don't think folks are saying that is the case. Your average Russian citizen is pretty much like any American, we just want to live our lives in peace.
Maybe not, except here, in the parent post:
Originally posted by Hortlund
There you have it.
I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever.
Begging your pardon if I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that this post indicates some ill will towards the individuals, not just the system. Unless, of course, Anarchy is designed only to re-organize government and not wreak general havoc.
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I don't think Hortlund despises the average Russian citizen like he does the Russian government. He can correct me if I am mistaken in this. His accusations appear to be aimed at things the government has done and not what the average citizen has done.
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I hope you are right. I sure have nothing against the Finns. I like your use of the energizer bunny analogy though....
This post could go on forever, and eventually, we might uncover that the real culprit behind all of the problems of the modern world was some crusty, old, child-beating ***** from 17th century Russia named Tamara Sergeivna. Of course, I would fully expect her name to be immediately exonerated, along with those of Vladik Lenin and Josik Stalin, and the blame volleyed back.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Where this thread is different is one side of the *argument* is showing particular facts about Russia and the old USSR and going :O :O . The other side is in complete denial that those things even happened in many instances. It's the denial that is keeping this thread going and going and going like the Energizer Bunny.
This is something that went over Storch's and Dichotomy's heads.
But, Blame Karaya! :aok
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Originally posted by Elfie
The other side is in complete denial that those things even happened in many instances. It's the denial that is keeping this thread going and going and going like the Energizer Bunny.
Exactly.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
This is something that went over Storch's and Dichotomy's heads.
But, Blame Karaya! :aok
I wasn't singling you you Karaya I was merely putting my .02 in.
My apologies if I made you feel that I was.
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I wasn't singling you you Karaya I was merely putting my .02 in.
With inflation it is now $2, please fork over the other $1.98 you tightwad!! :t
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Originally posted by Elfie
I don't think Hortlund despises the average Russian citizen like he does the Russian government. He can correct me if I am mistaken in this. His accusations appear to be aimed at things the government has done and not what the average citizen has done.
I wonder how long would it take for Skuzzy to delete the thread if some Russian posted something like this:
"I hate usa!I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever."
Minute? Few seconds?
Double standards, as usual.
BTW, being Russian I would ashamed of reading such a post not saying to post there.
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Originally posted by Vad
I wonder how long would it take for Skuzzy to delete the thread if some Russian posted something like this:
"I hate usa!I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever."
Minute? Few seconds?
Double standards, as usual.
BTW, being Russian I would ashamed of reading such a post not saying to post there.
This is what is typed when "you have further to contribute."
We'll do it next year.
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Originally posted by Vad
I wonder how long would it take for Skuzzy to delete the thread if some Russian posted something like this:
"I hate usa!I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever."
Minute? Few seconds?
Double standards, as usual.
BTW, being Russian I would ashamed of reading such a post not saying to post there.
Folks have started threads about hating the US or how bad the US is for this or for that. They haven't been shut down either.
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I wonder how Boroda defends the Nashi organization, which is awfully alot like Hitler Jugend (coincidentally sounds alot like "nazi"). Ironically they claim to be an anti-fascist movement, but they have showed alot of fascist tendencies.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/5169610.stm
We witnessed scores of young people queuing up to take ideological exams that will enable them to become "commissars" of the movement and take part in an annual training camp which is visited by top Kremlin advisers.
Those who succeed will follow courses in politics and administration devised by Nashi's own school of management. And some will gain material advantages unthinkable for most young Russians - in Tver, a new block of flats is being planned to house local commissars.
It's been accused of recruiting skinheads and soccer hooligans who've attacked members of rival groups. A festival the movement planned to organise this spring was mysteriously cancelled.
http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/030205RFERL_Putin.shtml
According to a press release published on pravda.ru, which quotes Walking Together founder Vasilii Yakemenko, the goal of the new "anti-fascist" movement is to put an end to the "anti-Fatherland union of oligarchs, anti-Semites, Nazis, and liberals." Several Moscow-based newspapers reported the goal of the new group is actually a bit more specific: to eventually replace the party of power, Unified Russia.
In an interview with "Vremya novostei" on 1 March, Yabloko's Yashin suggested that "one of the tasks of the 'Nashisti' is to intimidate the opposition youth so that they are afraid to attend public meetings. He said that in the last couple of months there have been several clashes between the members of the political opposition and unaffiliated people.[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashi_(Ours)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6624549.stm
Sounds good, doesn't it? Acts very much alike HJ and SA.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YCFD_CXaw5w
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Originally posted by Elfie
Folks have started threads about hating the US or how bad the US is for this or for that. They haven't been shut down either.
About US may be, but I don't remember threads about "disgusting, evil, monstrous American nation which should collapse".
Does the word "nation" mean "government"?
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Originally posted by Elfie
With inflation it is now $2, please fork over the other $1.98 you tightwad!! :t
*starts digging in couch cushions ;)
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Of cource I dont hate the russian people. No one has suffered more from the actions of russia than them. Be it by the tzars, the communists, or now the current abomination of government...they have always suffered, been opressed, used, lied to, abused.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Of cource I dont hate the russian people. No one has suffered more from the actions of russia than them. Be it by the tzars, the communists, or now the current abomination of government...they have always suffered, been opressed, used, lied to, abused.
Excellent post!
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Of cource I dont hate the russian people. No one has suffered more from the actions of russia than them. Be it by the tzars, the communists, or now the current abomination of government...they have always suffered, been opressed, used, lied to, abused.
Could you explain word "nation" used by you in the first post of this thread.
Thank you in advance.
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Does the word "nation" mean "government"?
Technically the answer is no. However, when folks talk about America as a nation they are usually refering to the government and not the nation (or people).
Hope that helps. :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
Technically the answer is no. However, when folks talk about America as a nation they are usually refering to the government and not the nation (or people).
Hope that helps. :)
Very interesting, you puzzled me...
So, Hortlund wish our nation... "government" according to you, collapse to anarchy... That 's a little bit strange. Anarchy is nonexistence of government. It's hard to imagine how government can collapse into anarchy and people wouldn't be affected.
Hortlund doesn't hate Russian, he hates Russian government. It's what you want to say, and what Hortlund confirmed few posts ago. And he just wants Russia collapses into anarchy, without any government, any state institutes, nothing. And all Russians together with the whole world including Sweden will be happy. Ok, not bad so far.
But there is a little problem. We've already been there. From 1990 till 1998. We didn't like that, and looks like the world doesn't like the result. But now we don't care, it's not our problem anymore. Pray it won't become your problem.
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Originally posted by Vad
I wonder how long would it take for Skuzzy to delete the thread if some Russian posted something like this:
"I hate usa!I dont know why that disgusting, evil, monstrous nation still exists....why cant it just collapse into anarchy or whatever."
Minute? Few seconds?
Double standards, as usual.
BTW, being Russian I would ashamed of reading such a post not saying to post there.
I'd handicap THAT race at 70:1.
Skuzzy wouldn't do it because this ISN'T Russia....
Do you think this thread would even be possible on a Russian Server?
Someone might accidentally end up eating a radiation sandwich!
68ROX
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Of cource I dont hate the russian people. No one has suffered more from the actions of russia than them. Be it by the tzars, the communists, or now the current abomination of government...they have always suffered, been opressed, used, lied to, abused.
Ya get an AMEN from me!
When a government can control ALL the information it's people get for almost 80 years, you have SOME (not ALL, but at least 2 on THIS board who are TOTALLY brainwashed).
I listened to Radio Moscow for 20 years and even read "Soviet Life" on a regular basis....probably earned me an FBI file, but who cares.
Russian people = Good folks just like us...HATE? NEVER.
Russian Government = hasn't changed much since Red October, a different wolf in different sheep's clothing....HATE? NO.. Feel SORRY for, definitely.
Brainwashed Ruskie Know-It-All's on this board = Priceless brainwashed entertainment. HATE? NO.. Feel SORRY for, definitely.
68ROX
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Originally posted by 68ROX
....
Do you think this thread would even be possible on a Russian Server?
Someone might accidentally end up eating a radiation sandwich!
68ROX
You won't believe because you don't read Russian:
http://www.inosmi.ru
Translation in real time of almost all publications from all over the world. Mostly about Russia, of course. Very popular resource in Russia, most of internet news sites have links to this resource. Even major news agencies quote from there.
And, by the way, readers can publish their own translations providing links to original sources. You can even translate some threads from public forums. I think about translating and publish this thread there.
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Originally posted by Elfie
The only thing I found on Dropshot:
http://alsos.wlu.edu/information.aspx?id=2310
On Fleetwood:
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj96/fall96/mcfarlnd.html
These were contingency plans, (plans made in advance) in the event that the Soviets attacked Western Europe. They were not plans to initiate the war.
It is wise to have plans in place to defend oneself against perceived threats. The Pentagon is constantly making new contingency plans and revising old ones. Just because this is a truth it does not mean NATO was planning on destroying the USSR.
Well, read what you posted more carefully: Drop Shot had a fixed date when "blue" side had to start hostilities. In fact this date moved several times from, IIRC, 1952, because USSR's pace in rebuilding it's industry and modernization of it's armed forces was too fast for Western estimations...
And it was declassified in 1967, not 1977, a book on it was issued in the US in 1968.
Oops, looks like I had a mistype in one of my books, l made a brief search and found this one: http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/ver/000677.shtml Indeed, must be 1977.
The problem was that it's not a "contingency plan", it was a plan for a first strike, with a set date.
I read only quotes from the above mentioned book, I wish I could order it or read it electronically. It's probably the only reliable source on the subject, because it was printed in the US and widely quoted by some Soviet authors.
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If the "blue" side was expected to start hostilities, why was the defensive network in Eastern Germany all turning the wrong way????
The whole system of NATO was defensive FYI.
USSR = Paranoia and therefore the need for "extended" borders.
At best....
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Originally posted by Elfie
I don't think folks are saying that is the case. Your average Russian citizen is pretty much like any American, we just want to live our lives in peace.
I think most of the references to the Russians or USSR is a reference to their government and not the average citizen. In much the same way that folks from other countries say....You Americans were wrong for invading Iraq....I think they are speaking about our government being wrong and not Jane/Joe American.
Exactly.
We see a difference between an ordinary Joe and government/corporations/olygarchy. You guys send your sons to die for their profits :( Unfortunately here it's not much different.
A good illustration to Russian mentality: an old woman selling fresh milk from her cow at the country road side, a Russian guy with 3 Germans in his car stops to buy some, a woman (babooshka) hears that this people are from Germany, and refuses to take money, "Take it, Germans, no money, please, you know, we had a war with you! (she said "nemchiki", an affectionate form of the word "nemtsy" (Germans).
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I officialy declare I've not read this thread
Now I'll need some help form you clever guys :
Margarita or Daiquiri this evening ?
Now that's a serious question !
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Daiquiri? What is that like?
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Daiquiri :
- 4 cl de rhum cubain (havana club, bacardi, etc)
- 2 cl de jus de citrons verts
- 1 cl de sirop de sucre de canne
Margarita :
- 4 cl de tequila
- 2 cl de liqueur d'oranges (triple sec,cointreau,grand marnier)
- jus d'un demi citrons verts
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Originally posted by Fishu
I wonder how Boroda defends the Nashi organization, which is awfully alot like Hitler Jugend (coincidentally sounds alot like "nazi"). Ironically they claim to be an anti-fascist movement, but they have showed alot of fascist tendencies.
Nashi are a crowd of illiterate young fools, "comsa", pure essence of idiocy in ass-licking and following the modern Party line. No fascist tendencies, they are just an illustration to an old Russian proverb: "Ask a fool to pray - and he'll break his forehead".
90% of this post-Soviet kids don't even know what happened on May 9th 1945, and will be surprised that Americans were our allies. So it goes. Everything goes down the drain, intellectual and educational level of people born after Soviet times is disgusting. Teletubbies, pokemons and "Nanny" as a substitute to life.
I look at them and I see myself as a member of a "lost generation", too young to make a career in an old system and use it for a jump-start, too old to completely fit into a new one. I am doing fine, enjoying life, but i simply can't understand them.
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I look at them and I see myself as a member of a "lost generation", too young to make a career in an old system and use it for a jump-start, too old to completely fit into a new one. I am doing fine, enjoying life, but i simply can't understand them.
And those lines there, imo, sum up the difference of opinions amongst us!!
Wurzel
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Originally posted by straffo
I officialy declare I've not read this thread
Now I'll need some help form you clever guys :
Margarita or Daiquiri this evening ?
Now that's a serious question !
Cuba Libra is my favorite. I use grapefruit juice instead of lime, makes it not too sweet.
I'll have some cedar-nut vodka with solyanka soup tonight, it deserves some good vodka.
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Originally posted by straffo
I officialy declare I've not read this thread
Now I'll need some help form you clever guys :
Margarita or Daiquiri this evening ?
Now that's a serious question !
Strawberry daquiri with crushed ice. Trust me.
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Originally posted by Vad
Very interesting, you puzzled me...
So, Hortlund wish our nation... "government" according to you, collapse to anarchy... That 's a little bit strange. Anarchy is nonexistence of government. It's hard to imagine how government can collapse into anarchy and people wouldn't be affected.
Hortlund doesn't hate Russian, he hates Russian government. It's what you want to say, and what Hortlund confirmed few posts ago. And he just wants Russia collapses into anarchy, without any government, any state institutes, nothing. And all Russians together with the whole world including Sweden will be happy. Ok, not bad so far.
But there is a little problem. We've already been there. From 1990 till 1998. We didn't like that, and looks like the world doesn't like the result. But now we don't care, it's not our problem anymore. Pray it won't become your problem.
I couldn't say it better.
Problem is that regardless to the form of government, democracy or totalitarian, free-market or planned economy, West simply doesn't want Russia to be strong and prospering. They encouraged the decay and destruction in the 90s, they are screaming about "democratic values" now, when we raise from our knees. They called Yeltsin's regime "democratic" ant it was OK for them when that bloody drunk bastard started a war in the middle of Moscow, killing thousands, burning the Parliament and arresting the constitutionally elected Supreme Council. That was OK, because he supported their interests, and Putin is a bloody tyrant only because he minds our own interests.
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Originally posted by Boroda
90% of this post-Soviet kids don't even know what happened on May 9th 1945, and will be surprised that Americans were our allies. So it goes. Everything goes down the drain, intellectual and educational level of people born after Soviet times is disgusting.
Your country isn't alone in it's schooling of world history 1900-today.
When I was in high school here in the USA, History Class (mainly US history) left off around 1900. There were other history/world civilization classes offered, I took India/SouthEast Asia and yes, the class on Russia that went from inception to the present day...GREAT EDUCATION.
Outside of that, I had to read books on my own to educate myself on history.
I was in between jobs once (about 7 years ago) and decided to do some school teaching as a change of pace. I taught history, and was HORRIFIED that the curriculum left off at about 1900.
The kids were TOTALLY unaware of the causes, effects, and aftermaths of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and even the first Gulf War. They had never heard of Watergate (much less that a sitting president had resigned in scandal) or why there was such unrest in the Middle East.
I split the class time to teach the core curriculum in the first 3/4 of class, and then taught "modern history" (1900-Today) in the last quarter of the class...and showed at every instance how it directly effects THEIR lives today.
How are our children going to know where we are going in the future (and not make the same mistakes as in the past) if they do not know where we have been?
68ROX
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Originally posted by Boroda
I couldn't say it better.
Problem is that regardless to the form of government, democracy or totalitarian, free-market or planned economy, West simply doesn't want Russia to be strong and prospering. .
Well, gee I wonder why. Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that as soon as Russia is not completely bankrupt or on the brink of anarchy, they are a complete menace to their closest neighbours, threatening, bullying, doing stuff you would not expect from a civilized nation...you know... being that evil empire that we all hate.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I'll have some cedar-nut vodka with solyanka soup tonight, it deserves some good vodka.
I'll have to try that:
Solyanka Soup
Chop onion finely and fry in oil until light golden, add tomato paste and butter and stew for a while. Peel cucumbers and slice them.
Cook meat in water until done. Strain the broth and slice meat. Add onion, meat slices, capers, cucumbers and a bay leaf to the broth. Cook for 10-15 minutes.
Before serving, add sour cream, olives and lemon slices. Sprinkle with greens.
Ingredients
500 g meat for stock (ham, veal, sausages, kidneys, tongue).
4 ea pickles.
2 ea onion.
2 tb tomato paste.
3 tb butter.
1 tb capers.
1 tb olives.
100 g sour cream.
1/4 lemon peeled.
68ROX
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Personally, I'm holding out hope for the leaders that Russia will produce from the generation that is currently in its 20s. They are of a different breed, through and through. Many of them don't even think that it's odd to greet a stranger with a friendly smile while passing them on the street--something that cannot be said of most of the preceding generations. A small detail, perhaps, but big things are often manifested in the minutia.
Unfortunately, those of them who show the most promise, and are the most open-minded, have parents that send them abroad for their secondary education. The result is that few want to return.
Russia is not a tainted land, and the people that it produces are not all doomed from the start. The problem is that it takes time for an entire culture to shed some of its historical scars, habits, patterns. At the very least, it will take the dying of the last generation of hardliners, for a pristine generation to have a chance at real rehabillitation. Unfortunately, oppressive Russian regimes seem quite often to overlap each other.
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Originally posted by 68ROX
Ingredients
500 g meat for stock (ham, veal, sausages, kidneys, tongue).
4 ea pickles.
2 ea onion.
2 tb tomato paste.
3 tb butter.
1 tb capers.
1 tb olives.
100 g sour cream.
1/4 lemon peeled.
You can use fresh tomatoes instead of paste, just peel them (or simply slice if you are too lazy to peel ;)) Also no need to peel lemon, just slice thin.
This soup should be thick, and it's excellent for vodka, maybe even better then borsch. Serve it with black bread, maybe some salo and spring onions (that's for vodka). IMHO it's a much better use of meat left-overs then pizza. Don't get stuck with the recipe, feel free to improvise.
Mmmm. I think I am going home now... :D
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Originally posted by Neubob
Personally, I'm holding out hope for the leaders that Russia will produce from the generation that is currently in its 20s. They are of a different breed, through and through. Many of them don't even think that it's odd to greet a stranger with a friendly smile while passing them on the street--something that cannot be said of most of the preceding generations. A small detail, perhaps, but big things are often manifested in the minutia.
Unfortunately, those of them who show the most promise, and are the most open-minded, have parents that send them abroad for their secondary education. The result is that few want to return.
Russia is not a tainted land, and the people that it produces are not all doomed from the start. The problem is that it takes time for an entire culture to shed some of its historical scars, habits, patterns. At the very least, it will take the dying of the last generation of hardliners, for a pristine generation to have a chance at real rehabillitation. Unfortunately, oppressive Russian regimes seem quite often to overlap each other.
Neubob, it seems to me that you are a little biased ;) People smiling in the streets don't look like white crows here. We just don't fake smiles. Youngsters sent to study to the West are definitely outside my social niche, they are more alien here then most of the Western visitors. I have enough experience with "golden youth", since late-80s, they are mostly moral freaks to me. People calling their country "ðàøêà" (rushka) and everyone who doesn't have a "pager" (beeper) in early-90s or a father's car with a driver now - "áûäëî" (cattle)... And this morons usually couldn't afford to buy a bottle of cheap port-wine, drinking with us on our money looking as if we owe them, while we already were working, making our own lives, not hiding at our parent's lap (I am speaking of late-80s/early-90s). They collapsed every time they came in contact with real life.
Now young people who study and work as engineers, programmers, in applied science like geology are the real hope for our country, not mother's sons who get MBA and start preaching here, selling chocolate bars and chewing gum. Usually this guys and girls are generally much better educated then average "managers" or "economists", they are fun to talk to, they enjoy their lives and jobs.
I am listening to good old Aquarium in my walkman now, "Akustika", "Radio Africa" and "Den' Serebra" this week. Songs written in 81-84, underground rock from SPb. How nice, it's the music of my youth, no young kids will ever make anything like that.
What we understand and they don't: money won't solve all your problems.
As for an older generation - I'll post my recent experience later (maybe tomorrow), a brilliant example of a Civil-War mentality... First time in maybe15 years when I had to jump off the moving train at 30-40 km/h :D
Another observation: I think St.Santa had hit the bull's eye in his post after he visited Russia a few years ago: we are a "we'll fix it" nation. "We'll fix it, nevermind!" (ðàçáåð¸ìñÿ!) should be our motto. We see a problem and solve it, we just can't see any unsolvable problems.
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Originally posted by straffo
Daiquiri :
- 4 cl de rhum cubain (havana club, bacardi, etc)
- 2 cl de jus de citrons verts
- 1 cl de sirop de sucre de canne
Margarita :
- 4 cl de tequila
- 2 cl de liqueur d'oranges (triple sec,cointreau,grand marnier)
- jus d'un demi citrons verts
Daquiri...definately!
And Boroda, - I said there were many good things about Russia. (Of course we have been bashing around about the bad stuff, but I had to promote some like the ballet etc, as well as teasing Hortlund :D)
I did not mention this soup or the cooking because it is unfamiliar to me, but I am copying the recipe, and sure as hell I am going to try it!
Want some Icelandic recipes, - pm me!
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Daiquiri vs Margarita the outcome
After 3 shot of each the Dutch judge , the other Dutch judge and the French judge* all agree they need another go later*
** et viva el integrated fire fox spell checker !
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Well, read what you posted more carefully: Drop Shot had a fixed date when "blue" side had to start hostilities.
No.....that is incorrect......from the link I posted.....
a date arbitrarily set for planning.
Note that it doesn't say a date arbitrarily set for an attack, a date was set for planning purposes.
The plan called for defending the Western Hemisphere and Western Europe,
It was a defensive plan, with plans to destroy the Soviet capability to make war with conventional and nuclear bombs. After the USSR's ability to make war was destroyed, the rest of the plan was for a massive counteroffensive to occupy the whole USSR. (No different than the plan for defeating Germany). So you see, it wasn't a First Strike plan, it was a *just in case* plan, also known as a contingency plan. This was planned *just in case* the USSR and the Warsaw Pact attacked Western Europe.
These types of military plans are perfectly reasonable. I expect the USSR had some of these very same types of plans.
Just because these types of plans are in place does not mean that either or both sides are actually planning on initiating warfare.
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Originally posted by Angus
Daquiri...definately!
And Boroda, - I said there were many good things about Russia. (Of course we have been bashing around about the bad stuff, but I had to promote some like the ballet etc, as well as teasing Hortlund :D)
I did not mention this soup or the cooking because it is unfamiliar to me, but I am copying the recipe, and sure as hell I am going to try it!
Want some Icelandic recipes, - pm me!
:)
You can try but don't use this recipe! There are a lot of different recipes of solyanka but this one is incomplete and strictly speaking incorrect. Try google
The problem with national cuisines is that it is not easy to find right ingredients. For example, cucumbers. The best would be cucumbers in brine, not pickled. They shouldn't be sweet or hot, only salt.
You have to take at least 5 different kinds of meat.
The broth should be rather strong, so it is better to use good peace of beef on bone.
And couple of links with pictures. The second one is in Russian but pictures will give you idea
http://www.russlandjournal.de/en/recipes/soups-and-stews/solyanka.html
http://www.say7.info/cook/recipe/258-Solyanka-myasnaya.html
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Originally posted by Boroda
Neubob, it seems to me that you are a little biased ;) People smiling in the streets don't look like white crows here. We just don't fake smiles. Youngsters sent to study to the West are definitely outside my social niche, they are more alien here then most of the Western visitors. I have enough experience with "golden youth", since late-80s, they are mostly moral freaks to me. People calling their country "ðàøêà" (rushka) and everyone who doesn't have a "pager" (beeper) in early-90s or a father's car with a driver now - "áûäëî" (cattle)... And this morons usually couldn't afford to buy a bottle of cheap port-wine, drinking with us on our money looking as if we owe them, while we already were working, making our own lives, not hiding at our parent's lap (I am speaking of late-80s/early-90s). They collapsed every time they came in contact with real life.
I don't think we're talking about the same people, Beard. These are not the 'Majori' of modern Russia, who get carted around in daddy's car by daddy's driver. They generally have decent ambitions, good heads on their shoulders, ample but not excessive family support, and the general willingness to do good. These are the ones I met here, in the States. The ones I've spoken with in Russia just seem like average youth to me, as at home in Vladivostok as they would be in Washington DC.
As for some sort of feeling of entitlement, I'm happy to say I've never witnessed it. In my experience, they've always been able to afford their own liquor.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Nashi are a crowd of illiterate young fools, "comsa", pure essence of idiocy in ass-licking and following the modern Party line.
At least we agree on something :D