Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Coshy on July 17, 2007, 09:38:41 AM
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My girlfriend bought a Sig P226 a couple years ago. She hadn't fired it until this past sunday.
Her problem is that she cannot close one eye and leave the other open.
I'm not familiar enough with pistols to advise her, although we did try an eye patch, she had trouble focusing her right eye with her left eye covered like this. We also tried shooting one handed and covering her left eye with her off hand, she actually aimed better this way, but still had trouble focusing. And turning her head to the left so the bridge of her nose blocks the target, thereby forcing her to aim with only her right eye, this worked the best so far.
She is able to close both eyes and then partially open her left eye which makes me think about suggesting she shoot left handed, since it seems her left eye is the dominant one.
We have considered a laser sight, however I am completely unfamiliar with them. How they work, how you sight it in, etc, etc. If we cant find a way for her to shoot without it, we may be doing some research on a laser sight.
The pistol was bought as a gift, however I see the usefulness in owning a handgun and being able to have it ready at a moments notice in the unlikely event of a home intrusion. I work nights 6 months out of the year, and while our dog (rottie) would probably deter most ne'er-do-wells ... I'd rather be safe than sorry.
The thought of her exiting the bedroom, one hand over her eye (or her head turned way to the left) while holding a pistol doesn't instill a lot of fear in me, nor do I think it would instill fear in an intrduer who had already dealt with 100lbs of snarling teeth.
If there are no additionial suggestions on things we could try to get her to shoot right handed with one eye closed, any tips on left handed shooting, stance, grip, etc would be appreciated as well. Suggestions on laser sights would be welcome.
I look forward to your responses.
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Nix the eye patch and leave both eyes open. This will give her better vision and situational awareness for whats going on and most tactical guys I talk to advise this anyway. I shot pistols with both eyes open for years anyway but the guy who taught the CCW class teaches the same technique.
When shooting something like that I have my own technique and YMMV but here it is:
Assume normal tactical stance. Both hands extended straight out, shoulders hunched and a "ready" position with my feet. This makes my body above my waist move as one solid unit. Both eyes open essentially anchoring the front sight of the pistol down line of sight with my right (dominant) eye. When I pick up a target I simply look at it, move my body to match and when the front sight I'm looking "past" touches the target it's going to be a hit. Focus beyond the weapon at the target and effectively use the pistol as a reference as to where the bullet will go.
It's worked for me. Good luck and keep both of your eyes open especially in a defensive situation.
No weaver stance BS with two bent elbows costing you accuracy.
There are numerous excercises to decide which eye is dominant. Have her look at an object about 30 feet away. Have her extend her arms in front of her overlapping her hands to make a triangle with her thumbs and palms. While looking at whatever object it is (a clock works fine) have her bring her hands up from extended below her line of sight to encircle the object. She then needs to draw her hands back to her face and whichever eye she is looking through when she does it (without thinking about it) should be her naturally dominant eye.
There is nothing wrong with shooting from a tactical stance using either eye to aim. Its a matter of an inch or two left/right with the pistol. There are plenty of right handed folks with left dominant eyes that can shoot...better than me :cry
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Have her keep both eyes open but work to find which is her dominant eye. Then she will need to practice aiming with that eye as the primary aiming eye. It is an oportunity to practice and once she gains a bit of confidence in her shooting ability she will feel more comfortable with the situation. This is not a significant problem and frankly it's better to shoot with both eyes open. She might also want to get her eyes checked to make sure she has good vision in each or at least get them to match. Having differnt focus points between the eyes can make it hard to focus on the sights and or the target.
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Yup, I think it's a conflict with dominant eyes as well. Most of the time, your dominant eye is the same side as your dominant hand. Sometimes it is not.
It just makes it more interesting learning how to shoot.
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I have always shot with both eyes open. Even when looking through the scope of my deer rifle, both of them are open.
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To get an idea of what she was seeing, I tried shooting with both eyes open, I ended up going all cross-eyed and seeing double of everything.
Perhaps the problem is not her vision, but my lack of knowledge.
I think I'll look into rectifying that in the very near future.
Maybe a block of instruction would do us both good.
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Originally posted by Coshy
To get an idea of what she was seeing, I tried shooting with both eyes open, I ended up going all cross-eyed and seeing double of everything.
Perhaps the problem is not her vision, but my lack of knowledge.
I think I'll look into rectifying that in the very near future.
Maybe a block of instruction would do us both good.
If you have both eyes open, the sight should be on the fringe of blurriness, as should the background. But don't go out of your way to do this, if you don't normally shoot with both eyes open.
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I am left-handed, but right eye dominant (from shooting a rifle right-handed as a kid I am convinced). My pistol shooting improved once I realized this.
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With both eyes open, focus on the front site, it should be clear the back can be double or blury.
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You are supposed to have both eyes open.
I don't know where the idea of closing an eye came from. I know of no decent shooters that close an eye.
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I would have thought it best to get rid of the eye patch. If she actually needs to hit something in real life what is she going to do if she only can shoot straight with an eye-patch on?
"Excuse me Mr. Rapist...hang on a sec...just need to put the old eye patch on. Be right with you."
:)
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I am a decent shooter and I close one eye. It is habit from decades of shooting.. I also learned to shoot when I was about 9 and the gun was heavy so I used both hands to hold the pistol.
At the time I was told that no decent shooter ever used both hands to hold a handgun.
I also used a modified weaver stance that I simply used because it was what worked for me.
I was told that no decent shooter would stand like that.
I also can point shoot or I can be very deliberate and I do it based on range and time.
I have been told that no decent shot would do such a thing..
I will never win any of the shooting games where you pretend you are in danger.
I have been in danger and did fine.
In the end... I wouldn't place too much stock on how you hit the target so much as simply hitting it.
lazs
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The Calif Hwy Patrol teaches a non-aiming style of combat shooting that has had pretty good results, so consider ditching the whole aiming thing.
Really.
You can teach yourself to simply *point* a gun and hit a reasonably small target (head-size) out to fairly long distances, once you accept that for shots out to 15 yards you don't really need to aim. For someone proficient with this technique, aiming inside around 15 yards doesn't increase effectiveness and it delays the first shot by quite a bit. Yea your groups may not be as tight, but if you can make a lethal shot in half the time, who cares if it hits the exact center of the 10 ring or not?
As lazs says, who cares what technique you use as long as it is effective, and point-shoot techniques work fine at typical combat distances.
My other suggestion would be to try shooting left handed. It's possible she is left-eye dominant, even if she's right-handed. It'll take only a few trips to the range to get her comfortable shooting left handed, and it's possible to become very competent shooting left handed in a short time.
My brother (CHP officer) injured his right wrist in a collision and he had to shoot left handed for over a year. During his most recent tactics evaluation, he amazed the evaluators by being able to shift his weapon to either hand and shoot with essentially identical accuracy regardless of which hand he was using. Unlike most officers who must contort their bodies in certain circumstances to shoot around different barriers, my brother simply swaps hands to make sure the weapon is held in the most advantageous position without even thinking about it. He didn't even know this was a remarkable talent until the evaluators noted that this skill was unusual.
The fact that the CHP uses the pointing technique instead of rigid sight-alignment aiming made learning to shoot left handed a lot easier in the long run, even though it took a bit of practice at first to learn the technique.
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The best way I know is to watch a lot of John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, and other western movies, paying particular attention to the gunfight scenes and fight scenes, and watching other action movies can help, but Westerns generally focus more on the gun fights. (This is a joke, but it can help).
Aiming:
Just look down the barrel, if it's an intruder in your house, most chances it will be to dark to see the sights. So just learn to look down the barrel, and point and shoot. After practicing this, it should become second nature which way to hold your hand to hit the mark. It's best to get to the point that you don't have to see the gun to know where it's pointing. Because turning on the lights in an intruder situation will momentarily blind you, it's best to leave them off, and you should still be able to see the intruder.
Fast Draw:
I've shot pistols for years, the best way I've found is to file off the front site, so it will clear the holster on a fast draw, and look down the barrel at your target. Start by slowly drawing the pistol up out of the holster, looking at your target the entire time, and keeping the pistol moving straight up. Practice this with tall straight trees. Do this many times with an unloaded pistol. Then start practicing pulling the hammer back as you pull it up, keeping the pistol moving straight up, and then pulling the trigger when the pistol is straight out from the body, always facing the target. After a week or two with this, do it with a loaded pistol, firing it like this. Also, it is good to see if you are hitting your target, if not, see at which angle your body needs to be to be looking down the barrel from a straight draw. Just pay attention to following it very closely, and practising. And always keep both eyes open, you can see your target(s) better this way. When you get all of this down, and you can draw and fire and hit the mark well, then you have it. The more you practice, the faster you will get.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I have always shot with both eyes open. Even when looking through the scope of my deer rifle, both of them are open.
Naturally or did you have to practise? You may have amblyopia like me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amblyopia
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You guys seem to be reinforcing my opinion that I, not she, is the one with the problem. Fortunately I don't think I started any bad habits that cant be easily overcome.
I am coming to the conclusion that it is time for both her and I to go to some sort of class or something. I am familiar enough with the mechanics of how a pistol works, but its becoming clearer that I lack in the actual shooting part.
Thank you for your input.
Any suggestions/opinions about laser sights?
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Forget the laser sights they add a bit of weight to the pistol she doesn't need. Teach her to shoot fiorst, then you can play with the toys like laser aiming points, red dot sights and flash lights.
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Just get her a shotgun.
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Both eyes open will work just fine.
Which is her dominate eye? You said you thought left, but have you figured that for sure yet? I'm right handed but left eye dominant (slightly far sighted one eye, slightly near sighted the other). I aim right eye with rifle but use left eye with iron sights with pistols.
Laser sights? Why do you need to do tactical combat snap shots?? Plus, it makes it harder to conceal carry the pistol, and can interfere with drawing.
Get a class. Learn a good firing stance and weapon control and managing a tight grouping while firing. If you have a place you can practice it (some ranges don't allow it) practice quick point-and-shoot snap shooting (don't aim - just point and shoot in one fluid motion).
Why does she have the pistol? Home defense? Concealed carry (or in the car)? Target shooting? In case you get out of line with here? Tailor the practice shooting to it's intended use.
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Don't arm women!
Men sleep better in their beds at night with the knowledge that their women do not know how to load a gun.
Sheeesh.
:D
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yeah..... It is pretty funny that now they are teaching people to point shoot... We were told you couldn't hit anything that way even tho we were sending cans rolling merrily along by pointshooting.
I will close an eye... I will pointshoot at close range and hold the gun any way it feels right to me. I will shoot one or two handed depending.
Only thing sure is.... whatever you are being taught now about so called "combat" shooting will be the thing people are laughing at years from now. Pictures of you doing it will be as funny as leisure suits and white belts and shoes pics are now.
If I ever thought that plates would become aggressive and attack in groups of 8 (to make it hard for revolver shooters) then I would have spent more time on combat ranges.
lazs
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I had eye dominance change from one to the other eye some years back. Gave me fits until I figured out what was going on, mainly in shooting a bow.
I agree with Laz on developing your own style. Do what works for you. It might save your life sometime in the future.
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Todays top tip, just ensure you aim for the largest body mass you can hit......make sure you put at least 2 rounds in it....and if your feeling really vicious.......once their down, put one in the head. Guaranteed problem over
Oh, and no before anyone asks, i've not done it to anything but paper targets. X11 to be precise.
Wurzel
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again.. I am not sure about the "put two into em" thing. I think you need to put as many or as few as needed to stop them from doing bad things....
There are no rules except... if you get into a fight you need to win it. If you do what you do best you will have a better chance than hoping that all that "muscle memory" training with akward stances and positions and holds works under stress.
If you don't believe me then study real gunfights. the old guys were right.... take your time.. in a hurry. make sure you hit something. make sure that you hit all the threats good enough to make em be nice.
cops practice all sorts of things but when push comes to shove.. they shoot dozens of rounds in every direction except the outline of the bad guy.
lazs
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To an extent I'd agree with you there Laz, (why I said at least 2). Allegedly...only putting 1 into the body mass can leave you open to counter aggression (depending on where you hit), but the 2nd induces enough shock to help whoever the target was to go down, allowing you to disarm/escape etc without danger......as you said though, there are no hard and fast rules.
Wurzel
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Originally posted by Dago
Don't arm women!
Men sleep better in their beds at night with the knowledge that their women do not know how to load a gun.
Sheeesh.
:D
Dago,
Do you lock up the cutlery when you sleep?? Does the name Lorena give you chills? It isn't only the things that go bang that are dangerous you know...... :t
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Originally posted by gpwurzel
To an extent I'd agree with you there Laz, (why I said at least 2). Allegedly...only putting 1 into the body mass can leave you open to counter aggression (depending on where you hit), but the 2nd induces enough shock to help whoever the target was to go down, allowing you to disarm/escape etc without danger......as you said though, there are no hard and fast rules.
In self defense there are some unwritten "rules" to consider.
If you empty the magazine into the other person, use a magazine with more than 10 round capacity (even though they were never illegal to use, just banned from sale for a while) or are using your own reloads rather than factory loads,... some overly aggressive, gun-hating, democratic DA will prosecute you, righteous shoot or not. You'll be judged by 12 folks that were unable to get out of jury duty. You'll be sharing cell space with U.S. Border Guards that actually do their jobs and get locked up for it.
I figure if it ever came down to it, I could get away with up to 3 quick rounds into a guy (2 chest, 1 head) and blame it on my military training (3-shot zero range) kicking in. Just have to remember when on the stand to not ask the coroner how my shot grouping was.
Concealed Carry gun of choice is the 10mm Glock 29 subcompact with Cor-Bon rounds (165 GR. JHP 1250FPS/537FTLBS). Also have some larger frame pistols around.
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If you have a gun for self defense you should practice point shooting because that's what you're going to end up doing anyway if you have to defend yourself.
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Originally posted by Suave
If you have a gun for self defense you should practice point shooting because that's what you're going to end up doing anyway if you have to defend yourself.
US Army Special Forces teaches two rounds fired with both eyes open, point and shoot, center mass.
I’ve done it in war, it works.
But unless you live out in the sticks a cell phone, 911 and deadbolt on the door is best.
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Deadbolts can be picked, you know. It's called a "bumpkey".
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Originally posted by Maverick
Have her keep both eyes open but work to find which is her dominant eye. Then she will need to practice aiming with that eye as the primary aiming eye. It is an oportunity to practice and once she gains a bit of confidence in her shooting ability she will feel more comfortable with the situation. This is not a significant problem and frankly it's better to shoot with both eyes open. She might also want to get her eyes checked to make sure she has good vision in each or at least get them to match. Having differnt focus points between the eyes can make it hard to focus on the sights and or the target.
Ya that was my first thought.... maybe her left eye is dominant.
To find your dominant eye....while not fool proof, this works pretty well...
Find a small object to focus on like a light switch.
Then hold your arms out straight...while holding your hands up, and palms out, place them in front of the 'light switch'. Overlap your thumbs make a very small 'triangle' with your thumbs and palms.
Move you head around and search for the light switch keeping your hands stable.
When you focus on the light switch inside the triangle you made with your hands,. . .
Close one eye if you can still see the light switch, your open eye is your dominant eye. If you can not see the light switch ... the eye you closed is your dominant eye.
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Originally posted by McFarland
Deadbolts can be picked, you know. It's called a "bumpkey".
I'm sure they can be picked, but police in my town have a 4 minute response time. You pull that trigger only as a last resort. There is also something called a door Jam that can not be picked the door stays closed no matter what. It's not a lock but a jam that holds the door in place.
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I prefer an iron cross bar, nothing is going to move that. The police around here have a 30 min (rarely) - 1 hour (maybe) response time. It's best to just go ahead and shoot, and then worry about calling the cops. Cause they can't help you if you've already been shot/mugged. All they can do is *try* (around here this means filing paperwork) to catch the criminal.
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Just get a good laser/light and problem solved. I never take my Glock GTL 22 off my Springfield XD .45 ACP. Easily doubles the effectiveness of home defense.
Have to sight it in, but then can count on hitting saucer-size target from virtually any shooting position with both eyes open. Much safer to use with vastly increased peripheral vision.