Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: crockett on July 18, 2007, 10:41:35 AM
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According to US courts you no longer have an "expected" right to privacy on the internet, which now allows the FBI or police I'd guess to use spy ware on your PC. I guess this must be part of the domestic spying program..
Only in America..
http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2007/07/fbi_spyware
FBI agents trying to track the source of e-mailed bomb threats against a Washington high school last month sent the suspect a secret surveillance program designed to surreptitiously monitor him and report back to a government server, according to an FBI affidavit obtained by Wired News.
The court filing offers the first public glimpse into the bureau's long-suspected spyware capability, in which the FBI adopts techniques more common to online criminals.
The software was sent to the owner of an anonymous MySpace profile linked to bomb threats against Timberline High School near Seattle. The code led the FBI to 15-year-old Josh Glazebrook, a student at the school, who on Monday pleaded guilty to making bomb threats, identity theft and felony harassment.
In an affidavit seeking a search warrant to use the software, filed last month in U.S. District Court in the Western District of Washington, FBI agent Norman Sanders describes the software as a "computer and internet protocol address verifier," or CIPAV
Sanders wrote that the spyware program gathers a wide range of information, including the computer's IP address; MAC address; open ports; a list of running programs; the operating system type, version and serial number; preferred internet browser and version; the computer's registered owner and registered company name; the current logged-in user name and the last-visited URL.
The CIPAV then settles into a silent "pen register" mode, in which it lurks on the target computer and monitors its internet use, logging the IP address of every computer to which the machine connects for up to 60 days.
Under a ruling this month by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, such surveillance -- which does not capture the content of the communications -- can be conducted without a wiretap warrant, because internet users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in the data when using the internet.
According to the affidavit, the CIPAV sends all the data it collects to a central FBI server located somewhere in eastern Virginia. The server's precise location wasn't specified, but previous FBI internet surveillance technology -- notably its Carnivore packet-sniffing hardware -- was developed and run out of the bureau's technology laboratory at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia.
The FBI's national office referred an inquiry about the CIPAV to a spokeswoman for the FBI Laboratory in Quantico, who declined to comment on the technology.
The FBI has been known to use PC-spying technology since at least 1999, when a court ruled the bureau could break into reputed mobster Nicodemo Scarfo's office to plant a covert keystroke logger on his computer. But it wasn't until 2001 that the FBI's plans to use hacker-style computer-intrusion techniques emerged in a report by MSNBC.com. The report described an FBI program called "Magic Lantern" that uses deceptive e-mail attachments and operating-system vulnerabilities to infiltrate a target system.
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Good, bomb threats are no joking matter. If some idjit wants to go to myspace and type em, he should pay.
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Same with seditious statements! Why, the very sanctity of our nation could be shaken by the words of a communist-sympathizer!
The eyes of the constitution must occasionally be shielded from the necessary actions we take to protect ourselves. When the FBI infiltrates a computer without judicial oversight, it must be allowed no matter what. When the government stamps out vocal dissent that may cause unrest, it must be allowed so our safety may flourish! In time of war, you are no citizen if you object to forcibly housing our great soldiers, and if you're honest, you must confess your crimes.
Guns, too, must be given up on demand when our leaders demand it, and if you put your hobby above the safety of your neighbors, what kind of person are you? It is also a privilege to be held indefinitely by the state while they determine exactly what your offenses are, any protest should be seen as evidence of guilt obviously. A jury, too, need not have their busy days bothered by your incarceration, our leaders pick judges that will _get it right_.
Huzzah, say I, huzzah to both those who trade our liberties for comfort, and doubly so to those brave patriots like Masherbrum that support it in the face of hostility! 'Tis but a pebble fighting an avalanche of freedom, but that pebble shall and must stand strong against the forces of "liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness".
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Good, bomb threats are no joking matter. If some idjit wants to go to myspace and type em, he should pay.
Yea because all this will ever be used for, is to target teenagers whom make bomb threats.. I guess that thing called the US Constitution is little more than spam mail that should be deleted.
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75% of the 9th circuit rulings are overturned by the SC.
San Francisco, need we say more?
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Originally posted by crockett
Yea because all this will ever be used for, is to target teenagers whom make bomb threats.. I guess that thing called the US Constitution is little more than spam mail that should be deleted.
Good, if teenagers acted in an appropriate manner, this wouldn't be necessary.
This follows the US Constitution, and the 1st Amendment. The part most forget about the 1st Amendment is you have "free speech" AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT INFRINGE UPON THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS. Making bomb threats, as is yelling "fire" in crowded place "infringes on such rights".
Even more amazing is that I was a teenager once, and never made a bomb threat. To do so, should have repercussions, as it should.
They deserve what they get. I say bring back Corporal Punishment for these smart arse kids. Some of em need it.
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Disturbing...
such surveillance -- which does not capture the content of the communications -- can be conducted without a wiretap warrant, because internet users have no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in the data when using the internet.
I wonder what the government's reasoning behind this is. Why should I have no reasonable expectation of privacy on the internet?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Good, if teenagers acted in an appropriate manner, this wouldn't be necessary.
This follows the US Constitution, and the 1st Amendment. The part most forget about the 1st Amendment is you have "free speech" AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT INFRINGE UPON THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS. Making bomb threats, as is yelling "fire" in crowded place "infringes on such rights".
Even more amazing is that I was a teenager once, and never made a bomb threat. To do so, should have repercussions, as it should.
They deserve what they get. I say bring back Corporal Punishment for these smart arse kids. Some of em need it.
lol never mind.. it went right over your head..
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Originally posted by Engine
Disturbing...
I wonder what the government's reasoning behind this is. Why should I have no reasonable expectation of privacy on the internet?
because govt knows best
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Good, if teenagers acted in an appropriate manner, this wouldn't be necessary.
I don't think anyone's debating that bomb threats should be punished.
The subject is the FBI planting spyware on a computer system and a court backing them up.
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crockett, if the threats were real and children died, you would be the first to blame boosh and say "why didn't he doooo something".
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I view the internet as a public place, in much the same way that a shopping mall is public. I also view my computer as private, much the same way I view my home as being private.
I hate spyware and other forms of malware, I think all of them should be illegal and those that write and distribute those programs should be viewed as criminals.
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And Elfies reply, sums it up perfectly. Internet = public, pc = private (unless a warrent is requested and signed)
Wurzel
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Originally posted by crockett
lol never mind.. it went right over your head..
keep in mind he's just a little fellow
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Why should I have no reasonable expectation of privacy on the internet?
You are in a public domain. It is no different than the privacy of your car while on the roads. You can be watched and tracked, intersection by intersection, by anyone public or private, while you remain private within your vehicle unless you are under investigation and a warrant is issued to open your doors.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I view the internet as a public place, in much the same way that a shopping mall is public. I also view my computer as private, much the same way I view my home as being private.
I hate spyware and other forms of malware, I think all of them should be illegal and those that write and distribute those programs should be viewed as criminals.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that the FBI in this case is a spy cam in the restroom taking pictures of you when you use the public bathroom at the public mall.
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Originally posted by john9001
crockett, if the threats were real and children died, you would be the first to blame boosh and say "why didn't he doooo something".
Why would I blame bush? What's he have to do with this, other than under his admin our rights seem to be disappearing down the toilet.
BTW commonsense tends to lead in the direction of most bomb threats tend to always be BS.. If someone is going to bomb something, they just do then claim responsibility afterwords.
Again as someone already posted.. the debate isn't about the bomb threat.. it's about the FBI being backed by a court saying you no longer have a right for privacy on your computer. The bomb threat is meaningless in the big picture.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that the FBI in this case is a spy cam in the restroom taking pictures of you when you use the public bathroom at the public mall.
By all means take pictures of me when I am out in public, even in the restroom if you enjoy looking at mens privates while they urinate. (Sicko!! :D) I'm in a public place.
Just don't install spyware on my comp (private) unless you have a search warrant.
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Originally posted by ROC
You are in a public domain. It is no different than the privacy of your car while on the roads. You can be watched and tracked, intersection by intersection, by anyone public or private, while you remain private within your vehicle unless you are under investigation and a warrant is issued to open your doors.
To continue with your analogy:
Does the government have the right to plant tracking and listening devices on your car without a warrant?
That's what they did in this case.
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Originally posted by ROC
You are in a public domain. It is no different than the privacy of your car while on the roads. You can be watched and tracked, intersection by intersection, by anyone public or private, while you remain private within your vehicle unless you are under investigation and a warrant is issued to open your doors.
Police can not search your car unless you give them permission or unless they see something inside the car which leads them to believe a crime has been committed.
They can't just say, hey we think this guy robbed a bank so lets search his car. Now if there was a gun on the seat or a bag full of money in the back seat, then of course they can legally search the car.
Your PC is private and there is no way they can just happen "see" something inside your computer which would lead them to believe a crime was committed. So this is the same thing as searching a car with no justification and hoping they will find a crime.
This will be turned over via the Supreme Court. The problem comes in with how many people rights will be violated in the meantime? Then how many cases will be thrown out because info was gathered illegally.
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They can't just say, hey we think this guy robbed a bank so lets search his car
That would be probable cause and they could search your car legally.
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Originally posted by Elfie
By all means take pictures of me when I am out in public, even in the restroom if you enjoy looking at mens privates while they urinate. (Sicko!! :D) I'm in a public place.
Just don't install spyware on my comp (private) unless you have a search warrant.
Actually there are now laws on the book that might even help in this case. A year or two ago a law was added I can't remember what it was called, however it made taking pictures illegal if the person assumed they had reasonable privacy.
Was something to do with anti-voyeurism.. Was a big debate about it being used against paparazzi and people whom take pictures at the beach and so on.
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Originally posted by Elfie
That would be probable cause and they could search your car legally.
No they couldn't.. you miss-read what I said.
They can not just stop a car on the highway with no reason and search his car claiming he robbed a bank. There is no probable cause.
On the other hand if they pulled over a car on the highway, and there was a gun on the seat and a bag of money in the back seat. They most certainly could search his car at that point, if they thought a crime had been committed.
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I look at it this way, if your not doing anything illegal using your computer then you have nothing to worry about.
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Originally posted by trax1
I look at it this way, if your not doing anything illegal using your computer then you have nothing to worry about.
How disgusting.
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Originally posted by crockett
Police can not search your car unless you give them permission or unless they see something inside the car which leads them to believe a crime has been committed.
They can't just say, hey we think this guy robbed a bank so lets search his car. Now if there was a gun on the seat or a bag full of money in the back seat, then of course they can legally search the car.
Your PC is private and there is no way they can just happen "see" something inside your computer which would lead them to believe a crime was committed. So this is the same thing as searching a car with no justification and hoping they will find a crime.
This will be turned over via the Supreme Court. The problem comes in with how many people rights will be violated in the meantime? Then how many cases will be thrown out because info was gathered illegally.
They can pull you over for speeding. Place you under arrest and impound the car, tow it to an impound lot and search and inventory the vehical at the impound lot. If they find a gun during that search or better a body in the trunk. Do you think you get to walk.
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Did you read his post?
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Originally posted by trax1
I look at it this way, if your not doing anything illegal using your computer then you have nothing to worry about.
Spoken like a true American of his times.. It's all ok until it happens to me.
No offense and not trying to bash you. However, what you just said, goes against every principle this country was founded on. Not trying to single you out, but this kind of attitude seems to becoming the norm in this country these days and it's extremely sad to see.
It's always ok until it's your rights that are getting violated. I used to think as an American citizen, it was my duty to my country to make sure my country stays true to what it was founded on. Lately it's starting to show that no one even cares anymore and that maybe this country isn't worth standing up for.
It's one thing to fight for your rights from a govt as anyone with power will try to get more. That includes govt's or people of power, but when normal everyday people just willingly give their rights away.. Well it becomes a point, you really wonder what's left to stand up for.
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They can not just stop a car on the highway with no reason and search his car claiming he robbed a bank.
You are correct they can't do that, I did indeed misread what you meant. ;)
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It's a chilling situation to be sure. Given the information in the article, assuming it's all there and it was reported accurately, this should have been a situation where a warrant would have been obtainable. You already have an offense and normal tracking brings the investigator to a blind contact. I would imagine that there was enough info to convince a judge that the warranted intrusion in the computer and ISP files was permissable. If they had stopped at the ISP and just obtained the ISP info I wouldn't have much problem with it.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Same with seditious statements! Why, the very sanctity of our nation could be shaken by the words of a communist-sympathizer!
The eyes of the constitution must occasionally be shielded from the necessary actions we take to protect ourselves. When the FBI infiltrates a computer without judicial oversight, it must be allowed no matter what. When the government stamps out vocal dissent that may cause unrest, it must be allowed so our safety may flourish! In time of war, you are no citizen if you object to forcibly housing our great soldiers, and if you're honest, you must confess your crimes.
Guns, too, must be given up on demand when our leaders demand it, and if you put your hobby above the safety of your neighbors, what kind of person are you? It is also a privilege to be held indefinitely by the state while they determine exactly what your offenses are, any protest should be seen as evidence of guilt obviously. A jury, too, need not have their busy days bothered by your incarceration, our leaders pick judges that will _get it right_.
Huzzah, say I, huzzah to both those who trade our liberties for comfort, and doubly so to those brave patriots like Masherbrum that support it in the face of hostility! 'Tis but a pebble fighting an avalanche of freedom, but that pebble shall and must stand strong against the forces of "liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness".
Are you channeling Eagler again?
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The government can only do to the people what the people let them. This is an infringement of rights. The current FBI wouldn't know the constitution and the Bill of Rights if it bit them. Nor would most politicians.
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So stop quibling guys. Has the open source community written the freeware specific reponse to this for the windows platform?????????????
Kinda reminds me of Back Orafice and related gems of naughtyness. But then in a way installing a response specificly to this in a surreal way could be leveraged by the FBI as impeding an ongoing investigation. If you are aware that the government is investigating you and you get in their way...expect the knock on the door in the wee hours......amazing catch 22 back door to make an instant criminal of people. So do the antivirus companies have to knowingly not key for the FBI's trojan?
Kinda like the ATF trying to close down a gun store in Idaho by saying the owner didn't organise his paper work alphabeticly.................
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My previous post is silly.......chances are the FBI has the ISP allow them to run the program from the first hop and scans the suspects PC traffic and machine's ports. A personal firewall would take care of most of the intrusion other than looking at your traffic. Don't you think it's rather silly to be so trusting of your ISP the FBI could plant a trojan on your PC?
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Originally posted by crockett
Why would I blame bush? What's he have to do with this, other than under his admin our rights seem to be disappearing down the toilet.
some wise guy here :aok
on the other hand, where does all this lead? a free secure land,
totaly controled. At least this way they will catch illegal pron & software user too! ;)
btw. the german gouverment tried a similar thing without luck.
Now they discussing new laws in Germany to fight terrorism,
proposing special detention centers for "combatants" and even
suggesting that it is appropriate to kill a terrorist suspect.
imagine that! yes what a wonderfull world is coming.
Kurt Beck (a german politician) said it best: "We mustn't kill liberty in an effort to defend it."
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the cops can do anything they want, it will be up to you to hire a expensive lawyer and fight it in court. Guilty until proven innocent.
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The govt can tap your phone line with probable cause and an order from a judge. We should have the same standard for spyware planted by the govt.
Recall the approximate words of Franklin, "Those who would yield a little freedom for a little security, deserve neither." Don't give away your freedom, your rights, to feel a little safer.
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In an affidavit seeking a search warrant to use the software
Hmm, search warrant, kid pleads guilty, probable cause and all that.
Ya, Illegal as hell.
Come on guys, try decaf once and a while.
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Originally posted by bustr
A personal firewall would take care of most of the intrusion other than looking at your traffic.
Or not. Personal Firewalls are not that great, many of them are leaky. Although some have improved tremendously recently.
The issue around spyware isn't just the invasion of privacy, its no secret spyware can have an impact on your pc's reliability and performance. What happens if you lose important documents or data because this spyware conflicts with something. Its like planting a bug in your car that could fry the electrical system.
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Originally posted by crockett
lol never mind.. it went right over your head..
No it didn't. I don't make "bomb threats", so I, Karaya, have not one thing to worry about.
Dumb kids do.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
No it didn't. I don't make "bomb threats", so I, Karaya, have not one thing to worry about.
Dumb kids do.
Well, right now you posted the phrase 'bomb threats'. It originated from your PC, your IP, in plaintext, easily sniffable. Now say a scanner like carnivore picked up on that what would happen? And is your home PC on a static or dynamic IP? What if someone who was a real threat spoofed your IP address while making threats? Or simply spoofed your email address?
The internet is a very dynamic world, it is hard to identify 100% the sources of data, and fairly easy to make mistakes.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Well, right now you posted the phrase 'bomb threats'. It originated from your PC, your IP, in plaintext, easily sniffable. Now say a scanner like carnivore picked up on that what would happen? And is your home PC on a static or dynamic IP? What if someone who was a real threat spoofed your IP address while making threats? Or simply spoofed your email address?
The internet is a very dynamic world, it is hard to identify 100% the sources of data, and fairly easy to make mistakes.
I typed it, all someone with 1/2 of a brain would do, would print a hard copy and toss it in the trash.
Now the dumb kids, well, you get what is happening in the original post.
I say we ignore our kids even more, and allow the "parental responsibility" to slip more than it already has. I am ALL FOR IT, since it's working awesome these days!
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Ok, I have a question about this; If my Anti-virus or spyware cleaning programs find, quarantine, or eliminate a(n) FBI-planted trojan, Am I guilty of obstruction of Justice? Or is Trend-PC cillin?
Anti-virus programs seem to always be behind the ball when it comes to malware. But, some of the better programs might just recognize any FBI-sourced program as another virus, trojan, or worm, and shut it down. Wouldn't that be the same as illegally interfering with an investigation?
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At my company, we are on record as having NOT whitelisted any government surveillance programs. Both when I was in charge of QA for our consumer firewall, and no exceptions in our A/V defs used by all our products.
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Since we are paying these guys (even if isn't voluntary) I feel divided on this. If they aren't sneaky in looking for bad guys I feel they are slackers. If they are spying on me I feel indignant. So long as they back off when we catch 'em out of line I probably won't march on Washington.
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Spying is good for the economy. It creates industries, jobs and spending. Governments, industrial espionage companies, marketing and advertising businesses, cctv manufacturers, printer companies, anti-virus software makers, spyware writers, prosecutors, investigators and millions of people all depend on your cooperation. Thank you and rest assured, you have nothing to fear. They will all handle the information responsibly and competently. They always have and always will.
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Illegal searches rock!