Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: DoNKeY on July 18, 2007, 01:12:56 PM
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Here's my predicament, I've been flying AH2 for about two weeks now, and I have fallen in love with my new addiction. I have decided that it is now time for me to become serious with the plane of my choice and learn it inside out so that I can be a serious competitor (and I know thats not going to happen over night 8) ). So I have narrowed it down to two planes that I want to learn and fly in. The 38L or k-4. I have flown a the L a little more than the k-4 lately but now its time to choose for good but I need a little help.
PS I think they both look absolutely beautiful.
Ill post just a few of my thoughts on what I like more about one, etc.
For the 38, what I like about it over the k4 is:
tricycle gears (Imho its soooo much easier to land with this configuration, and with views in particular. I can land a f'ed up 38 a million times better than a regular plane w/ just the two gears.
gun package. (l know the tater is a one hit most of the time but i like the 38s
guns better just because it can saw things up close up and I can
also attempt long range shots to try and put damage on the
target.
no torque (can't get much better than that.
For the k4:
Speed (comes in handy if you think about it 8) ).
climb rate (can also help you out.)
wep time (can't get much better)
30mm (basically one hit kill but its a close up weapon which im not to thrilled about tho)
Basically I want your guys opinion on which plane you think is better (assuming equal pilot skills) and other stuff like that. If the 38 had the speed, climb and wep i would easily take it, but it doesn't, and i think those are 2 or 3 things that can really get you out of trouble.
Hope this makes sense, please help me out lol, I am having such a hard time deciding.
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You are pretty well informed for someone who's been playing for only such a short time. By that regard, I have to believe that, in time, certain things that you find difficult now will begin to come easier to you. These are things such as landings, gunnery, ability to manage torque. Coincidentally, they are most of the same things that make you prefer the 38 to the 109. Therefore, if you are really going to take the time to learn either of the two, I would learn the one that has attributes that you can't "learn" (speed, climb rate, wep duration). The 109k4.
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Bf-109 K-4. But dont STAY with the K-4, learn it and go on the the Bf-109 G-6. THATS where the fun lies. If you can learn the Messerschmitts, you are truly a great pilot.
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Well, if you can MASTER 109s, you are a truly great pilot. Same goes for any plane. LEARNING to fly it is relatively easy. Mastering it? Not so much.
Here's the thing: 30mm ballistics suck. 109K-4 flight envelope rocks, though. It's got gobs of power, super climb, great WEP, and decent range. I've had my personal best at 8 kills without reloading in one.
On the other hand, several times I've gotten 8-10 kills in a P-38 as well. Even after you run out of 20mm the gun package (situated as it is) is still superbly lethal! It's got range, it's got redundancy (letting you limp home on 1 engine), but it's also got poor views all around.
The landing gear isn't really the problem. It's the torque. Single engine planes (and most twins) roll/pull to one direction because of the spinning prop, and the K-4 has this in spades. So landing a K4 is going to be a LOT more difficult than a P-38, because in the p38 you only have to worry about 2 axes, not 3.
So the 38 is fairly easy to fly, but limited in the moves it can do compared to some planes. Vertical ropes, loops, hammerheads, etc are the most effective when it has some speed, as it is a great looper. Flat turns are mostly bad. It doesn't do prolonged nose-high turns at all. Nose-low spirals work well. Roll isn't great (it's a huge plane, takes a while to haul around). 109K turns well, can spiral climb nose-high (mostly because of the engine) but it has to worry about torque. Very few things can run away from a K-4 in this game. Only the top 10 climbers can outclimb it.
2 very different but very ballanced choices. Personally I'd go for both!
It helps to learn more than 1 plane. You lock yourself in and you'll miss out on things that you can't do in "Brand X" plane.
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Fly around in K4 and cherry pick with the taters, you will rule:aok
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You can't really go wrong with either plane... 38's are my favorite but 109's are a close second.
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Originally posted by Krusty
So the 38 is fairly easy to fly, but limited in the moves it can do compared to some planes. Vertical ropes, loops, hammerheads, etc are the most effective when it has some speed, as it is a great looper. Flat turns are mostly bad. It doesn't do prolonged nose-high turns at all. Nose-low spirals work well. Roll isn't great (it's a huge plane, takes a while to haul around).
The P-38 rolls very well above 300mph IAS, this includes the G and J. The P-38 is also able to do nose high turns rather well, especially with the use of flaps so that notion that it can't is rather misleading.
ack-ack
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Notice I said "prolonged"?
It can't do them for long, and once it's wallowing and slow it's dead meat, unless it has alt to trade (also hence my nose-down spiral comment).
That's why I said that
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Looking from another angle, you could fly the 109K4 if you are a lone wolf and fly the lightning if you have a friend or two.
The K4 has everything to keep a loner safe and working with friends negates the few drawbacks the 38 has.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Notice I said "prolonged"?
It can't do them for long, and once it's wallowing and slow it's dead meat, unless it has alt to trade (also hence my nose-down spiral comment).
That's why I said that
Yes, it can do prolonged nose high turns. Just use the flaps, that's how you can counter spiral climbs in the P-38.
ack-ack
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AKAK, after a while you learn to just ignore Krusty's comments. He speaks as if he knows everything about every plane (and thing), yet he is often wrong.
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Originally posted by Blooz
Looking from another angle, you could fly the 109K4 if you are a lone wolf and fly the lightning if you have a friend or two.
The K4 has everything to keep a loner safe and working with friends negates the few drawbacks the 38 has.
I fly the P38 as a "lonewolf" quite a lot. Yes I often find myself being ganged but my ability to engage multiple cons has greatly improved.
That beingsaid, K4 has speed to disengage when outnumbered. People often engage the P38 first because they assume it will be an easy kill because of its large profile.
Donkey if you want my honest opinion, don't pick 1 or 2 planes to master at this point. Fly every plane you can, best advice anyone can give is to know each plane's strengths and weaknesses. I am not going to try to run from a typhoon in a P38, whereas I am not going to go verticle with a spit16. I say spend 1 night with each plane type; so tonight fly different spitfire models, tomorrow different P47s, etc. Don't make it your goal to live, make it your goal to test each plane's limits. Turn off the stall limiter and see if you can make your P51 turn with a spitfire.
Oh... also... have fun:aok
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DoNKeY.
I applaud your intention to be disciplined enough to try and master a particular ride. I like a little diversity myself, but can't fault someone trying to specialize.
I suggest you spend one whole tour (1 solid month) flying one, then the next whole tour flying the second. By that time, you should know which you prefer as well as having the scores and details of each of those tours to refer to to help you out --- a means to "grade" your efforts.
Both planes present some challenges, and how you fly -- your "style" if you will -- will determine which plane you can get the most out of. Both planes lead to some others to learn... the rest of the 38 line.... but the K4 leads you to the rest of the 109's the G-2, the G-6, the G14, and even the C.205's (try expanding your skills).
Score is not much a factor: both planes have ENY of 20 in relation to scoring.
K4 is better as an interceptor and killing buffs, and a great B&Z plane (although snapshots with 30mm can be a real challenge).
The K4 is harder to hit than the big Lightning.
The K4-s numbers across the board are generally better.
The P38 can take some damage and still get you home on one smoking engine.
P38 has the range for buff escorting, and can carry the ord for JABO runs.
The P38 has better visibility, once head positions are set up, IMHO.
The P-38 gives you more firing time and a longer effective reach.
The P-38 probably is a little more forgiving a plane to learn than the K4.
Finally, if you intend to take part in SEA events like Snapshots, FSO, KoTH, Scenarios, and such.... generally Axis powers need pilots more than the Allied pilots (usually a good turn out for U.S. rides, not always so for Axis). Specializing in the Axis plane will allow you to join the Axis side in SEA and probably do well in whichever Axis 109 rides are made available for the event.
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You also learn that Raptor makes snide comments.
You cannot spiral climb for very long with flaps. Not if you want to get above an opposing plane. The flaps slow you down too much and you just start wallowing. You tell me what's going to climb better in level flight, a plane with no flaps, or a plane will full flaps?
Hence the part "prolonged"...
You notice how he provides nothing in that post, other than to attack me? An entire post just to insult somebody... Not exactly neighborly.
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Thanks for all of the help and ideas so far everybody, I really appreciate the community helping me out. I guess I'll fly both of them at a months time each and see what happens from there.
Any more ideas/tips?
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People are gonna bittch and moan but the best advice you can get is to fly a Spitfire Mk IX or VIII until you get used to the flight model and get a firm grasp of ACM.
I recommend that you work your way into Bf 109K-4 or P-38s before jumping into them. The reason why I recommend flying those two Spitfires I mentioned is that they are both very forgiving aircraft, which is a plus for the new player. Both planes are good all-around fighters, meaning they can either Energy or Angles fight and are good at both. Take this time to learn both fighting styles and practice until you have them both down. Also, this is a good time to experiment and lay down the foundation for your own fighting style.
Once you are confident enough that you can either Energy or Angles fight in either of those two planes, then move on to the Bf 109K-4 or any of the three P-38 models. This way might take a couple of months but it's far more rewarding and it also makes the transition to different plane easier.
ack-ack
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I didn't learn on a Spitfire. I stuck with my beautiful P-38 and flew her until I stopped being lunch for the masses. My recommendation is to choose the one that you have more respect for (whether because you've seen it at an air show, or your grandfather flew it, or whatever), and fly it nearly exclusively. The other you can fly every so often just to have fun, but you'll probably never be that great in it. That's what I do with the P-38 and the P-47. Again, I do not recommend taking a granny ride like the Spitfire. It'll just stunt your progress.
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Oh and PS, right now I'm just flying in offline mode, I have Norton installed...:eek: :cry
Do the planes keep on flying without both winds and the tail just so you can get more gunnery practice?
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The 38 has a secret society. 'Nuff said
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shhhhh.......
:noid
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Originally posted by clerick
The 38 has a secret society. 'Nuff said
Exactly what I was thinking...:D
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I do not recommend taking a granny ride like the Spitfire. It'll just stunt your progress.
A statement made out of complete ignorance. Too bad Lev no longer plays, he'd probably enjoy showing you what a "granny" ride the Spitfire is.
ack-ack
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I have 2 favorite rides and they are the 109(any model) and the P38G or J not too crazy for the L.
I learned to fly in as my starter ride the 109 and believe me the learning curve is going to be high in this game reguarless of what you fly (ok not so much in lalas nikies and spits but we will leave that one alone). The 109k4 is a great ride, but untill you learn shot controll and actually can hit consistantly I would say learn in either the 109F4 or the 109G2 leave the gondies alone in my opinion, but 150 rounds of 20mm in the spinner should be adaquate. On the p38, people often discount this plane as a non threat and relegate it to toteing bombs. This is WRONG the 38 while being a large target is still a verry potent fighter as long as it is used to its strengths. I actually prefer the G or the J models rarely do I use a L but to each their own. The G turns better it lacks WEP while retaining the same great guns package. In my opinion the 38 in some respects was harder to learn to fight in than the 109 was in the aspect of ACM and evasion, however the generous ammount of ammo afforded the 38 pilot makes gunnery a little easier.
(By the way how does someone get into SAPP?)
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Spits are entirely over-rated.
I started in 109s and still fly them mostly. Once you learn the ins and outs of the aircraft, it is a potent weapon.
The 109K4 provides excellent 'survivability' in the MA.
Learning to hit with the 30mm cannon will throw off your aim with other guns, though.
It takes me a while to get back into the 20mm cannons after I've become used to the 30mm
Then you have to get back into the 30mm again once used to the 20mm.... Not good when you have only 65 rounds.
When you do get good with the 30mm though, you'll be landing hits at 400 and laughing all the way home.
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I fly 109s for fightersweeps, and alot of others if im "in attack mode" Choosing one plane "for good" sounds abit silly.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
A statement made out of complete ignorance. Too bad Lev no longer plays, he'd probably enjoy showing you what a "granny" ride the Spitfire is.
"Granny ride" as in "even my granny can fly it" ... If you don't think that flying the Spitfire's easier than flying the other ships, then it's you who don't know your stuff. Just because you dislike me doesn't mean that you must feel compelled to contradict me no matter what I say. If I inform the masses that water is indeed wet, will you deny that also?
Donkey, the reason I do not recommend flying a Spitfire as all of these fellows are telling you to is that the Spitfire is so easy to fly relative to the other fighters that it will not help you learn. The airplane does most of the work for you, thus you do not have to try different things. When you do not exert yourself, you won't get better. Hard training, easy war ...
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Benny,
I don't think that people are contradicting you to be spiteful, though I could be wrong. The way I see it with the exception of a few great sticks that just take spits and niks and la7s to a higher level, the majority of new pilots use them for the ease of use and survivability because the plane does the work for you, as you have stated. Thus the spit is a great first ride, along with any of the "easier" planes. That being said I have seen some of my friends both on knits and on oposing sides do amazing things with spitties, it is those that fly straight at you itching for the HO/ram (8ball did this every sortee last night in mid war) that misuse what are otherwise great aircraft. So I would have to agree that spits are great for learning ACM, but they do have a potential of breeding bweebery as well.
:aok
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
"Granny ride" as in "even my granny can fly it" ... If you don't think that flying the Spitfire's easier than flying the other ships, then it's you who don't know your stuff. Just because you dislike me doesn't mean that you must feel compelled to contradict me no matter what I say. If I inform the masses that water is indeed wet, will you deny that also?
I don't know where you get this "hate" thing, as you're just an anonymous person to me behind another computer screen.
Yes, the Spitfire Mk IX and the VIII are easy to fly, that's the whole point of them being ideal for someone that is new to this game. Donky doesn't have your vast experience in IL2 or Combat Flight Sim to lean back on. If he wants to make the learning curve just a tad less steep and increase the enjoyment level while keeping the frustration down, the Spitfire is the best learning plane.
The point of using the Spitfire is to get used to the flight model, which is one of the main causes for new players to quit. 2nd, because the Spitfire is so forgiving, it is also ideal for the new player to learn both BFM and ACM. Once the new player is comfortable with flying and fighting, then he should think about moving on to a more challenging plane.
You might enjoy the sink or swim method but there are far more less frustrating way to learn things. YMMV.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by DoNKeY
Here's my predicament, I've been flying AH2 for about two weeks now, and I have fallen in love with my new addiction.
You should also think about getting the following books:
Figher Combat by Robert Shaw
Every Man A Tiger: Mock-Combat Flying Techniques for Light Aircraft By Frank J. O'Brien
In Pursuit: A Pilot's Guide to Online Air Combat by Johan Kylander
And if you haven't already, go to the AH Trainer's site and NetAces.org.
ack-ack
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What Ack-Ack said--if ya are new, and don't have much success with a harder plane, chances are ya will get a negative attitude toward the game and quit. (And without a steady supply of new guys, I will go kill-less)
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For better or worse, I agree with Benny. I never flew spits to start, and, IMO, they won't teach you anything but to flat turn. Other planes force you to learn something in order to survive. Spits teach you how to pull the stick back.
It's up to you in this regard. None of us can pretend to know your mentality, so do what you think would be best for you.
And, after thinking about this for more than 15 seconds, I say take the K4. The 38 is big, and while it's not slow, it's definitely not the fastest. For a guy just starting, the speed of the K4 gives you a much better chance at surviving. If you find yourself surrounded by 2-3 bad guys, you can most likely just fly away.
Once you get the basics down, such as flap usage and energy management (which you'll need to learn to be successful in 109's and 38's), then you might want to try the 38. But until you get used to using flaps and energy, and unless you've flown other simulators, the 38 will just feel big, slow, and clumsy.
With all that being said, the plane is only part of the equation. If you want to learn and progress as a cartoon airplane driver, 95% of it is on you. Learn how to use your flaps ASAP!! Don't HO (you will learn absolutely nothing) and don't run from a 1 vs 1 fight (1 vs 1 is a really good oppurtunity to learn). Schedule time with a trainer.
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And I'll go with AKAK on this one. Unless you are a fantatic for a particular bird, or you are stubborn to the point where you won't get frustrated at dying a lot, I wouldn't start anyone in a 38 until they know the game a bit and how the flight model works.
The transition to a tougher bird can be hard because you die a lot and with the 38, it tends to be an awfully big target. And, in particular if it's a G or a J folks often will go for it first with a crowd figuring the guy flying it might have a clue. I pay the price for being clueless and flying the 38G all the time as I get hit early and often :)
Bottom line whatever you do, is it has to be fun.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Bottom line whatever you do, is it has to be fun.
That's the best tip in this entire thread.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Fianna
For better or worse, I agree with Benny. I never flew spits to start, and, IMO, they won't teach you anything but to flat turn. Other planes force you to learn something in order to survive. Spits teach you how to pull the stick back.
It's up to you in this regard. None of us can pretend to know your mentality, so do what you think would be best for you.
And, after thinking about this for more than 15 seconds, I say take the K4. The 38 is big, and while it's not slow, it's definitely not the fastest. For a guy just starting, the speed of the K4 gives you a much better chance at surviving. If you find yourself surrounded by 2-3 bad guys, you can most likely just fly away.
Once you get the basics down, such as flap usage and energy management (which you'll need to learn to be successful in 109's and 38's), then you might want to try the 38. But until you get used to using flaps and energy, and unless you've flown other simulators, the 38 will just feel big, slow, and clumsy.
With all that being said, the plane is only part of the equation. If you want to learn and progress as a cartoon airplane driver, 95% of it is on you. Learn how to use your flaps ASAP!! Don't HO (you will learn absolutely nothing) and don't run from a 1 vs 1 fight (1 vs 1 is a really good oppurtunity to learn). Schedule time with a trainer.
Not to disagree with a fellow SAPPer.:D But the spitfires Mk. V pre-nerf and the Mk.IX post were my main ride. While they didn't teach flap use, they did teach everything else.
I will say this though since switching to the 38. I think the 38 teaches good habits. By that I mean better energy management, which carries over to all AC.
Bronk
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i learned in a spit5, it was almost all i flew for ages.
it certainly didn't stunt my learning. i fly everything nowadays, and i'd like to think i'm pretty good in pretty much all of them. flying a spit while you're new is a GREAT way to learn ACM
learn to fly first before you learn to specialise.
since they neutered the spit5, try a spit8 donkey, it's a great plane, it's not too hard to fly, and it does everything fairly well.
after a month or so of getting used to the flight model, reach out and fly whatever you like :) don't resign yourself to flying just one plane though, fly em all. that way you'll know how to kill everyone else.
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Best advice I could give is to just fly whatever you are most comfortable with. I am so, in the 51D because I like the speed and shooting with 50s is more challenging than with cannon planes IMO
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Cool thanks guys.
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Krusty I am sorry if that seemed like a personal attack, do realize I take nothing seriously in Aces High. As a constructive criticism though, you do not need to reply to any and every thread. Let the P38 jockeys explain how the P38 handles, let the Terrain guru's explain the terrain editor. I don't get involved in technical discussions for a reason (a recent example is the F4U flaps thread). And I only go to the computer help forums when I need help. I wouldn't trust me fixing someone elses computer (I only trust me fixing mine when someone tells me step by step thouroughly what to do:D )
You do have a wide range of knowlege, but you have some stronger points than others.
Bronk, as far as the P38 teaching you to fly smart... tell that to the 80th:lol
Where we would rather be fought over than fight for an assist:aok
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Originally posted by DoNKeY
Do the planes keep on flying without both wings and the tail just so you can get more gunnery practice?
yes
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Originally posted by Raptor
Bronk, as far as the P38 teaching you to fly smart... tell that to the 80th:lol
Where we would rather be fought over than fight for an assist:aok
I didn't say fly smart. I said it teaches good habits.
I still fly like a fool straight into a mess.:D
Bronk
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Donkey,
I prefer to use the 109 as a bomber interceptor (I myself fear the 109 when I'm in bombers). Most of the time I fly P-38s when I'm flying with a squadie.Not into a massive furball-It's suicide.
I think that the P-38 is a fun-to-fly plane,but one hit from a cannon or 50.cal round on your tail boom,and it breaks off.(I've learned this the hard way from experience ;) )
Good luck with your research.:aok
Cobra 44 ***THE LYNCHMOB***
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I would say learn the 109, but do not start with the K-4. The reason i say this is because if I were new again I know it would be for me. I would suggest starting in either the 109-g2, g6 or f4 because you will learn acm and figure out what the 109s are all about. But i am also a fan of flying a few different aircraft.
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Yeah I wouldn't start out in the K-4. It depends on your fighting style and what the situation call for. Turn in burn take the F-4, but its slower than most of the planes in the furballs. Its a great plane to rack up perk points in however. Shoot an La7 down and get 6 perks before the multiplier (granted that you land). As you go up in models in the G's, you'll progessively become more BnZ dependant.
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pick the one you prefer to die in.;) JK.
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I'd suggest the G2 or F4 simply because of the 20mm guns (much easier to learn to shoot with those than with the horrible horrible 30mm on the K-4)
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i go with 20mm, alot easier to aim with, doesn't have the stopping power of the 30mm but it works well with the two 13mms. I fly 109G2 and G6 so i got 200 rounds in it.:D
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G6 only has 150 rounds.