Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Nangleator on July 21, 2007, 12:38:55 PM
-
I superficially know the strengths and weaknesses of these A/C, but I got caught today and shot down. I'm wondering if I had a better option.
I was in a 38L. I just finished a strafing pass on a field, and was at perhaps 400 ft, and probably a little over 330 mph. After the pass, I could see I had a Mustang at my 6 at 1.5k. He probably dove from 5 or 6 k feet to get on my six.
What's my best option here? I chose to go to WEP and start a gentle climb. I blew up in no time at all. He just overtook me and got me with his first fifty bullets.
Was that situation survivable? Could I have extended with my last 400 ft of altitude? Would a spiral climb have done me any good?
The guy was probably a better stick than me, and a much better shot.
-
As one who is generally lower then the 51s all the time in my 38G, I find that you can get good at timing the break and getting them to blow the pass because they are moving so fast.
Most don't throttle back but come in at light speed and easily miss the shot when you break.
The good 51 sticks will anticiapte the break and throttle back some to allow them to adjust.
Again most won't do that and will get frustrated and then slow trying to turn with ya, then you kill em :)
Based on what you are describing, I'd have broken hard up and to the left or right and trusted he was going too fast to make the shot.
-
Try this..... (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-F4U-2on1.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
-
63mph in a dogfight. :confused:
Maybe it was a graphical glitch, but it looked like you had flaps out during a climb at 120mph.
I'll have to see if I can fly like that in an L.
-
Originally posted by Nangleator
63mph in a dogfight. :confused:
Maybe it was a graphical glitch, but it looked like you had flaps out during a climb at 120mph.
I'll have to see if I can fly like that in an L.
38 drivers get the flaps out early and often. Combat flaps first but once it drops below 150 you get em out quick so it's not a glitch for flaps and climbing at 120
-
First, I would have stayed level for a bit so I could get a good estimate of his E-state.
If he had more E than me, I would have started a gentle flat turn and gradually tightened it as he got closer, eventually pulling up and rolling in the opposite direction so I would be behind him after he overshot. If after that he tried to turn with me, I'd follow him. If he pulled up to reposition for another attack, I'd push my nose low to pick up some speed and extend, and get him to burn more E for his next pass.
If I had more E I probably would have started a slow spiralling climb to the right, dropping all flaps just as I was about to stall to get my nose 90 degrees up. From there the 38 flips over and the nose drops straight down so he'd hopefully be stalling 400-600 in front of you.
-
I guess you just have no choice but to present that big barn door of your top aspect, for at least a little bit. Or can you make that turn tight enough to avoid any shot at all?
Thanks for the replies.
-
That's the idea. You show them that big huge target, and they can't help themselves. They go flying past.
http://www.speedyshare.com/335327465.html (http://www.speedyshare.com/335327465.html)
-
My 1st thought is that this isnt a 38 vs 51 issue. It's really a "I got bounced" issue. I've been flying the A-20 alot so its inevitable. If you got back a bit you can find some A-20 clips that might give you some thoughts. Separate out both relative plane capabilities and pilot skill....since neither got you killed.
1) When you get bounced your 1st goal is to survive the bounce...as a general rule a "gentle" anything wont help. A "gentle" climbing anything is even worse....basically you flew the clay pigeon defense. How violent your evasive is depends on when you pick the bogey up. At 1.5k your outside of guns so you have a bit of option. Since you have no real alt to work with I'd wait to 1200 and start a gentle nose low turn and tighten it at 800 (which is probably 600 to him) if he rolls away then level and watch...if he tightens then you need to chop pop and barrel roll looking for a rolling scissors...
2) once you survive now your in a fight that you can potentially gain equal footing since the pony is greatly neutered. Every pass lets you gain some E if the pony driver is not a stud....
-
Took a page from the Blonde Knight and if I'm getting bounced by a bogie like the original poster describes, I wait until the bogie is about 1,000 - 800 yards out. Then I give full rudder (direction depending on where I want to break) and then push forward and to the left/right (same direction as rudder). Puts me under their nose where they'll most likely loose momentary sight of me and will put me out of their cone of fire.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Nangleator
I superficially know the strengths and weaknesses of these A/C, but I got caught today and shot down. I'm wondering if I had a better option.
I was in a 38L. I just finished a strafing pass on a field, and was at perhaps 400 ft, and probably a little over 330 mph. After the pass, I could see I had a Mustang at my 6 at 1.5k. He probably dove from 5 or 6 k feet to get on my six.
What's my best option here? I chose to go to WEP and start a gentle climb. I blew up in no time at all. He just overtook me and got me with his first fifty bullets.
1)not sure if this is right or not.......but i think at that distance, i'd have throttled back a little, and started a flat turn...either right or left.....holding turn just bordering blackout, for about 90 degrees or so, then exit this turn into a roll of opposite direction from the turn.....all the while watching him...if i do and time this right, it almost always guarentees an overshoot, and since he was probably in the ballpark of 450-500mph, i'd be willing to bet he'd have gone right by ya......and possibly dumb enough to give ya at least one quick snap shot by trying to match your turn. this seems to work for me about 40-50% of the time........hope this helps ya a bit?
Was that situation survivable? Could I have extended with my last 400 ft of altitude? Would a spiral climb have done me any good?
The guy was probably a better stick than me, and a much better shot.
<>
john
-
Well, I can't say I've lived with this moves too many times but does happen now and then.
1 - wait until 1.5 -1M
2. Pull up and left (or right, depending on which way he dove from)
3. Snap roll into wing over
When I dive, depending on how far the other guy is (mainly SPITs), I'll go into one upside down with throttle back so if he makes move, i can turn into it little bit more
-
sorry typo - snap roll OR wing over
-
I know you were at 400 feet, but I still would have done as much of a split-S as I could have. It would have actually been simply a very nose-low turn. With him 1,500 feet away, you should have been able to get perpendicular to him by the time he was in firing position. Just as you think he should fire, pull up hard to dodge then turn into him again. That's my two cents.
-
At current exchange rates, your $0.02 is worth a lot to me. Thanks.
-
Best person to ask is prolly ROCKY of the knights.... that man is one of the best P-38 piolets i have ever seen, he will land 5+ kills in that thing almost every time
-BigBOB1
-
Originally posted by redman555
Best person to ask is prolly ROCKY of the knights.... that man is one of the best P-38 piolets i have ever seen, he will land 5+ kills in that thing almost every time
-BigBOB1
We're still working on ROCKY to come down a bit more though :)
-
My first instinct in that situation would be to do a climbing left turn and then roll back over and do a Split-S.(the P-51 would probably over shoot me.) I think that situation would be survivable,you would just have to use his E against him.
Cobra44 ***THE LYNCHMOB***
-
If someone is on your tail, always turn towards them to give them the worst possible shooting solution. When I know someone is going to get a shot on me, I like to force them to pull negative g's and turn. The P38 should be able to outturn a P-51, so I would have forced him into a horizontal turning fight. The Mustangs stall speed is much higher than the 38s, plus it has all that torque to contend with. All you really need is a snapshot to put the P-51 out of action.
-
never stop flying 38L
-
Originally posted by 64kills
never stop flying 38L
And who would you know? Do you even play in the MA or just another squeaker freeloader?
ack-ack
-
Oh I love the 38 G and J, I typically do not feel as confident in the L. but I do use it ocasionally. (that is when Im not in some form of 109)
-
Originally posted by Cobra44
My first instinct in that situation would be to do a climbing left turn and then roll back over and do a Split-S.(the P-51 would probably over shoot me.) I think that situation would be survivable,you would just have to use his E against him.
Cobra44 ***THE LYNCHMOB***
If the 51 driver is familiar w/ his plane... Bang.... you're dead before you can "roll back over"
so I would have forced him into a horizontal turning fight.
Bang, you're dead too. Flat turn that 38 and you will find yourself out of e w/ a pony over you who can kill you at his leisure.
Whatever move you make after dodging the first pass must be moves that attempt to equalize the E states between you and your opponent, get them at least close enough to afford you gun solution. In other words, they must be in the vert as any pony pilot w/ some skill is going to fight in the vert as well, especially since he is E superior. You can hope the pony pilot is one of those "one-pass-and run" clowns, your odds there aren't horrible. The problem is those pony sticks that will stick around to bleed you out until you can't evade/ get your nose up enough to defeat his gun solution w/ a face shot of your own.
Steve
-
There's almost no excuse for getting shot down by a P-51 in a P-38, unless there are multiple bandits.
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
There's almost no excuse for getting shot down by a P-51 in a P-38, unless there are multiple bandits.
:rofl
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
get them at least close enough to afford you gun solution. In other words, they must be in the vert as any pony pilot w/ some skill is going to fight in the vert as well
I can't understand what you're trying to say here...
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
There's almost no excuse for getting shot down by a P-51 in a P-38, unless there are multiple bandits.
Or the other guy's better than you.
Everything equal, though (except for E-states)...
The only way I can see the pony not dieing is if it runs away.
-
Originally posted by Fianna
Or the other guy's better than you.
Everything equal, though...
The only way I can see the pony not dieing is if it runs away.
There ya go, he didn't mention about starting on equal footing.
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
There ya go, he didn't mention about starting on equal footing.
I forgot to put something the first time. :lol
-
p38s are easy targets for a pony unless the 38 is alot higher or has more E
equal pilots my bets on the pony
-
even though it's an easy target its rugged so it taks a beating
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
p38s are easy targets for a pony unless the 38 is alot higher or has more E
equal pilots my bets on the pony
Co- alt, equal E I'm not so sure.
If the Pony is above and doesn't get suckered into a turning fight they can control when they come into the fight, but I've run into very few who can stay with a 38 once the fight starts to slow a bit.
Steve is a good example of a 51 driver who doesn't get suckered into that kind of fight. He'll generally keep his E up and have the alt to use it. (Not a criticism btw Steve :) )
-
Originally posted by 64kills
even though it's an easy target its rugged so it taks a beating
I'm going to disagree, as I have noticed A LOT more Pilot wounds in the 38's.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'm going to disagree, as I have noticed A LOT more Pilot wounds in the 38's.
I have nights where I can't go more than 2 hops out of ten without a pilot wound, often, it's a single ping from a distance. I think there's a slight flaw somewhere in that. And I also see times when EVERYTHING takes off the whole tail, often. I've been in situations where either my SA failed (common, VERY common) or I was way to low in E to avoid an HO pass, and had a machine gun only equipped plane take off the tail, and only damage the tail, on a near ramming HO. Again, I'm sure there's some sort of minor odd flaw hidden somewhere in the code or something. Both issues are probably near impossible to find.
One other thing about pilot wounds. I know some of the guys who like to fly the Mossie also complain of excessive pilot wounds. I wonder if somewhere in the code or formula there's something that allows more pilot wounds simply because there's no engine in front of you. I also wonder if because there's not an entire fuselage behind the pilot in the P-38, it is assumed that there is a huge increase in risk of pilot wounds, despite there still being a big armor plate there. Because I often get a pilot wound from a guy well over 1.2K behind me and slightly below as well. It is almost always a single ping, from a machine gun only plane. Odd how even a 50 hits the pilot, from so far behind, and below as well.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'm going to disagree, as I have noticed A LOT more Pilot wounds in the 38's.
not like that it can take a beating and keep on flying it's comon to get some noob just spraying you down
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'm going to disagree, as I have noticed A LOT more Pilot wounds in the 38's.
I only seem to get pilot wounds from acks and bombers.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by 64kills
even though it's an easy target its rugged so it taks a beating
HA!:lol thats a joke, 9 time outta 10 when i start taking fire in a 38 is a PW. plane is rugged, cept for around the cockpit :(
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I have nights where I can't go more than 2 hops out of ten without a pilot wound, often, it's a single ping from a distance. I think there's a slight flaw somewhere in that.
One other thing about pilot wounds. I know some of the guys who like to fly the Mossie also complain of excessive pilot wounds. I wonder if somewhere in the code or formula there's something that allows more pilot wounds simply because there's no engine in front of you. I also wonder if because there's not an entire fuselage behind the pilot in the P-38, it is assumed that there is a huge increase in risk of pilot wounds, despite there still being a big armor plate there. Because I often get a pilot wound from a guy well over 1.2K behind me and slightly below as well. It is almost always a single ping, from a machine gun only plane. Odd how even a 50 hits the pilot, from so far behind, and below as well.
Amen brother! I'm glad other's have noticed this as well.
-
i've flown the pony for months, then i found my true love, the 38. i love flying both of em, but in all actuality i think the 38's are better. dont get me wrong, the p51 is a great plane. i remember back in the day in a pony when i could drop two notches of flaps and scissor with a 109 believe it or not. yes, the 38 has some flaws in the programming and yes, its not the fastest/manuverable plane in the game, but it does have ALOT of potential. not to mention it is fun as heck to fly. The Chawks have mock furballs against the different squads that make up our squadron and we face each other in the DA on sunday night squad ops. last sunday, our last match in the DA for the night, we got to take our planes of choice. i was the only 38 pilot in the air. after all was said and done, i was still standing ( one engine dead and one elevator gone ) along with one more friendly with the squad, i had an LA kill and Tiffy kill with a P47 assist ( should have been a kill, lit him up wingtip to wingtip :cry ). the chawks are now convinced that the 38 is a decent fighter, but im still workign to convince them it is a GREAT fighter. sure its as big as a barn door, but that just adds a whole new defenition to "cant hit the broadside of a barn".
Enjoy your day gentlemen,
ScorpCH
-
corky ive taken many of the 733t 38 sticks ranging throughout the years and been lower and slower then them and even in a scissor fight my pony comes out on top i think its all in the pilot. but yes the mustang does handle wayyy better with E
ps i only get suckered by low and slow p38gs flailing with half a w ing suicidly go figure:p
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
Co- alt, equal E I'm not so sure.
If the Pony is above and doesn't get suckered into a turning fight they can control when they come into the fight, but I've run into very few who can stay with a 38 once the fight starts to slow a bit.
Steve is a good example of a 51 driver who doesn't get suckered into that kind of fight. He'll generally keep his E up and have the alt to use it. (Not a criticism btw Steve :) )
NP corky, I understand that a Co-E fight in this scenario gives a significant edge to the 38 and I therefore horde my E as the precious one advantage I may have. Let's face it, other than views and high speed handling(yes it's faster than many), the 51 is a pretty poor performer in a furball.
It is my opinion, with E state and pilot skill being equal, a fight to the death would certainly go to the 38.
FWIW, I have driven a 38 for a hop or three this tour. Far from being an expert, but I do think the gun package is top notch when factoring in ammo load, lethality and ballistics. From my limited experience, it seems it may just be the best overall gun platform in the game. Overall, I really got a kick out of the 38.
Steve
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
corky ive taken many of the 733t 38 sticks ranging throughout the years and been lower and slower then them and even in a scissor fight my pony comes out on top i think its all in the pilot.
so are you claiming to be some kind of super elite cartoon pilot? If it's all in the pilot, your opponent was 733t, and you won, that makes you super-7eet, obviously.
Wow.
Steve
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
corky ive taken many of the 733t 38 sticks ranging throughout the years and been lower and slower then them and even in a scissor fight my pony comes out on top i think its all in the pilot. but yes the mustang does handle wayyy better with E
ps i only get suckered by low and slow p38gs flailing with half a w ing suicidly go figure:p
Yeah, the last time I ran into you shortly before you quit, you didn't last long in turn fight with me 1v1. I guess pilot experience does count for something.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
corky ive taken many of the 733t 38 sticks ranging throughout the years and been lower and slower then them and even in a scissor fight my pony comes out on top i think its all in the pilot. but yes the mustang does handle wayyy better with E
ps i only get suckered by low and slow p38gs flailing with half a w ing suicidly go figure:p
Equal pilots, the 38 wins.
I wouldn't bet against you if you went 1v1 in the DA against some of the best 38 sticks, both flying the same plane... But the only chance of surviving in a pony against a 38 with more E is to run, unless you're just a much better pilot than the guy in the 38.
-
Originally posted by Fianna
Equal pilots, the 38 wins.
I wouldn't bet against you if you went 1v1 in the DA against some of the best 38 sticks, both flying the same plane... But the only chance of surviving in a pony against a 38 with more E is to run, unless you're just a much better pilot than the guy in the 38.
IMHO, a 38 w/ more E is less dangerous than a 38 that is Co-E. What I mean is, if you are both Co-E at a speed where the 38 is still responsive, the 51 will either lose or will have to do something to alter the E states. I am thinking of the following: 38 diving on my 51, if I can pull him down and get him to where his controls are less responsive I can get him out of phase and get some separation, maybe enough to rev him and change the fight. Of course a good 38 stick will break off before allowing the speed to get him in trouble, I understand.. which leaves the pony little option but to keep going, as you mentioned.
Another possibility is to create an overshoot... the inherent danger here is that if the 51 misses the overshoot opportunity(assuming he gets one), then the 51 has played right into the 38's hand.
Evenhaim must be a much better 51 pilot than me. I have fought many of the really good 38 sticks and if we are near equal in E states I am often left w/ a snap shot opportunity or two at best before being forced from the fight due to the 38 gaining angle/advantage. I will try to fight these guys but if I have lost the positional battle I will leave the fight; considering it a victory for the 38. If leaving instead of sticking around to give the 38 a freebie qualifies me as a runner, I'm labeled. :)
It's late, I babble... apologies.
Steve
-
to akak:
no offense but last time i fought you, you had a significant E advantage as i was freshly off a cv in what an f6f .... and i dont remember quiting i never do im stubburn you see.
Steve: let me rephrase the 38s low speed handling is amazing and nothing short of undefeatable in the right terms i have won some and lost some and i am very short of a super leet pony pilot thats skat:p im just saying with the right handleing and throttle managment the pony does have a chance just because i play dumb and win sometimes doesnt mean it always works.
but yes all in all the 38 at Equal E or lower speeds has alot more of an advantage just makes us pony drivers work hard :aok
hope that cleared it up i hate sounding pompous:o
-
I think everyone pretty much covered this one to the 'T' so just what I have learned, depending on the 38's pilot.. usually a banking turn or snap roll seems to help me
-
I think 38 pilot's get more pilot wounds cause we have big heads and it's a lot easier to hit it while it's sitting on our neck in the canopy. :rolleyes:
-
P38s will chew pony's all day long, unless the pony has initial advantage in Alt, Speed or Weight.
In terms of handling, the pony handles sharper, crisper whereas 38 generally lags a bit. But the 38 can continue maneuvering for longer and usually will end up on the pony's six.
A skilled pony will realize that at 150-200mph, his roll is a bit better and will try to use that for a rolling scissors and the 38 may lose angles to that. The P38 can then go into successive hi-lo yo-yos and if the pony attempts to follow he's dead cause he cant hang at 80mph like a 38 can.
-
Originally posted by Hazard69
P38s will chew pony's all day long, unless the pony has initial advantage in Alt, Speed or Weight.
Let's duel and find out. I'll even fly the pony.
-
I superficially know the strengths and weaknesses of these A/C, but I got caught today and shot down. I'm wondering if I had a better option.
I was in a 38L. I just finished a strafing pass on a field, and was at perhaps 400 ft, and probably a little over 330 mph. After the pass, I could see I had a Mustang at my 6 at 1.5k. He probably dove from 5 or 6 k feet to get on my six.
What's my best option here? I chose to go to WEP and start a gentle climb. I blew up in no time at all. He just overtook me and got me with his first fifty bullets.
Was that situation survivable? Could I have extended with my last 400 ft of altitude? Would a spiral climb have done me any good?
The guy was probably a better stick than me, and a much better shot.
I think your speed, alt and separation were pretty good considering the situation. I would have kept max speed as long as pony was gaining, slowing a bit too draw him in if not. Always keeping a little angle or slide to throw off gun solution, until @ 600-800yds. Then cut throttle start repeated hard flat scissors, with lot of rudder/stick. As you cut back across his nose extend airlerons/trim...it'll give you a nice dip under his nose (thats where lil alt is good). If he sticks to your six just continue, he can't stay there long. He'll freq overshoot and you'll have a decent shot. If he climbs out steeply...hard throttle up, stay on deck when the comes back more or less same.
If I'm 500-1800ft alt barrel roll might be better, less e lost. Another option low yo-yo reverse, maybe burn his e down.
If 2000ft alt split-S and climb up to him as long as your e is good. Or if your damaged, bingo ammo, too many enmy, etc...double split-S, hit the deck, he'll never find ya (and you'll be heading home in your original vector).
For all situations excellent cockpit views are a must.
Let me know if any of this stuff works...I might even try it myself!!!...:O
Salute All,
ROCKY
-
u dont need any tips rocky, u r the best 38 piolet i know :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok
- bigbob
-
Originally posted by ROCKY1x
I think your speed, alt and separation were pretty good considering the situation. I would have kept max speed as long as pony was gaining, slowing a bit too draw him in if not. Always keeping a little angle or slide to throw off gun solution, until @ 600-800yds. Then cut throttle start repeated hard flat scissors, with lot of rudder/stick. As you cut back across his nose extend airlerons/trim...it'll give you a nice dip under his nose (thats where lil alt is good). If he sticks to your six just continue, he can't stay there long. He'll freq overshoot and you'll have a decent shot. If he climbs out steeply...hard throttle up, stay on deck when the comes back more or less same.
If I'm 500-1800ft alt barrel roll might be better, less e lost. Another option low yo-yo reverse, maybe burn his e down.
If 2000ft alt split-S and climb up to him as long as your e is good. Or if your damaged, bingo ammo, too many enmy, etc...double split-S, hit the deck, he'll never find ya (and you'll be heading home in your original vector).
For all situations excellent cockpit views are a must.
Let me know if any of this stuff works...I might even try it myself!!!...:O
Salute All,
ROCKY
This will get you killed in the situation you're commenting on. Rule of thumb when attacking is never, ever cross your targets 3-9 line (draw an imaginary line from the leading edge of one wingtip to the other - don't cross this). Any player with a little experience and a few smarts will make a gun run on you, go vertical, reset and do it again - rinse and repeat for those who shoot as badly as I do.
A split S will work if you time it properly but it will leave you in a worse setup than the one you avoided with it.
If you get caught with a pony (or any fighter for that matter) on your high six or with the E to crawl up your backside, learn to recognize it early and turn into the attack before he can get a gun solution on you. Keep your speed up and try to fight uphill as much as possible to wear down his E advantage. But, keeping your speed up well inside your best maneuvering envelope is more important. Still, any altitude you can earn will take away from his E. Try to manuever so that your attacker has to pull G when he's fast - when he's moving toward you move toward him, when he moves away, you move away from him. When he climbs you climb a little bit - remember to keep your speed up. Be patient, stay out of his guns and eventually he'll make a mistake, lose his E advantage or go off in search of easier prey. Your whole attitude here should be aggressive. If you go defensive you'll almost certainly get nailed.
If you've got a pony crawling up your six from 1.5kyds out at 500mph and you're doing 330mph if you're not already in a hard break turn you're meat.
my $0.02
asw
-
"This will get you killed in the situation you're commenting on."
WHOA....ROFLOL!!! Obviously, some amongst us are much more knowledgable than the rest!
Seriously though, I think all the opinions stated are based on individual experiences and are quite helpful. My experience may, or may not, be limited but I do enjoy the game and fly the P-38 with some regularity.
I would LOVE to see some of these manuevers, nothing works better for me than visualization! Anyone know how to post a film clip here???
Salute All,
ROCKY
-
Originally posted by detch01
This will get you killed in the situation you're commenting on. Rule of thumb when attacking is never, ever cross your targets 3-9 line (draw an imaginary line from the leading edge of one wingtip to the other - don't cross this). Any player with a little experience and a few smarts will make a gun run on you, go vertical, reset and do it again - rinse and repeat for those who shoot as badly as I do.
Sooner rather than later, if you keep doing that, the P38 will have an E state close enough to the pony to become the attacker in the fight. If you don't kill the 38 in the first few passes, your only choice to live is to run. Assuming pilots have comparable skill levels.
-
Originally posted by Fianna
Sooner rather than later, if you keep doing that, the P38 will have an E state close enough to the pony to become the attacker in the fight. If you don't kill the 38 in the first few passes, your only choice to live is to run. Assuming pilots have comparable skill levels.
Only if you carry it to the extreme. Nothing works forever unless you're fighting very very basic AI. What it boils down to is knowing your own ride and having a very good idea of what your target's ride can do and doing what is necessary to put the target's scalp in the bag. The 38 is a good fighter but it's not a great one in all circumstances. Neither is the pony, but the pony is a better fighter in more circumstances than the 38's. The only times a pony is less capable than the 38's is when the fight is below ~225mph or in a HO situation.
asw
-
Originally posted by redman555
u dont need any tips rocky, u r the best 38 piolet i know :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok
- bigbob
Better than Delirium? This I gotta see.
-
Originally posted by detch01
Only if you carry it to the extreme. Nothing works forever unless you're fighting very very basic AI. What it boils down to is knowing your own ride and having a very good idea of what your target's ride can do and doing what is necessary to put the target's scalp in the bag. The 38 is a good fighter but it's not a great one in all circumstances. Neither is the pony, but the pony is a better fighter in more circumstances than the 38's. The only times a pony is less capable than the 38's is when the fight is below ~225mph or in a HO situation.
asw
What do you mean by "to the extreme?"
And I'm confused about the statement that a pony is better in more circumstances than a 38. Is this because the pony can always run away?
If you're talking about survivability, I agree with you. But if you're talking about shooting someone down, the 38 can do almost everything better than the pony.
In the pony, you have to stay fast. This cuts down your ability to maneuver, because maneuvering burns E. This basically leaves you to make BnZ or slashing passes at your target. But not too many, because too much maneuvering burns E, and E is really your only weapon in the pony.
In the 38, you can slow down if you need to. The plane will still handle pretty well. You don't need to rely on BnZ or slashing attacks, although this is something that the 38 is also pretty good at. You can fight in the vertical with pretty much everything.
The 38 is great at nothing, but good at everything. The pony is great at going fast, but not that good at everything else.
-
Originally posted by Rino
Better than Delirium? This I gotta see.
Plane really doesn't make a difference... If someone is better than you in one plane, chances are they're better than you in every plane. ACM is the same.
-
Originally posted by Fianna
The pony is great at going fast, but not that good at everything else.
You haven't spent enough time in the pony if you believe that. The pony will out roll the 38, out climb it, out scissor it and provided you are above 275mph will out turn it and out zoom it. And yes the pony will out run the 38's. If you want to stay stuck in the popular prejudice against the pony, that's fine by me.
asw
-
Originally posted by Fianna
Sooner rather than later, if you keep doing that, the P38 will have an E state close enough to the pony to become the attacker in the fight. If you don't kill the 38 in the first few passes, your only choice to live is to run. Assuming pilots have comparable skill levels.
Yep and it really gets those BnZ guys really mad when they realize that they just wasted their advantages and forced into the defensive.
ack-ack
-
I think you should of turned down to the left or right when he got close. It would of made him lose E if he would of turned to try to shoot you down.
O ya, there both excellent planes by the way. I fly them all the time.
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb146/Forrest76259/fsscr005.jpg)
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb146/Forrest76259/fsscr002.jpg)
-
Originally posted by detch01
The pony will out roll the 38, out climb it, out scissor it
asw
:huh
-
Originally posted by detch01
You haven't spent enough time in the pony if you believe that. The pony will out roll the 38, out climb it, out scissor it and provided you are above 275mph will out turn it and out zoom it. And yes the pony will out run the 38's. If you want to stay stuck in the popular prejudice against the pony, that's fine by me.
asw
double:huh
-
Right, as implied, that's total crap. The P-38 will out-climb the P-51 by a large margin, out-rolls it at nearly all speeds, and out-scissors it because of the comperable or superior roll and vastly superior turn. The P-38 also out-accelerates the P-51, I believe, although the P-51 can get away in the long run if he doesn't get shot down in the short run.
-
hye benny you still around im hungry for bombers
-
Originally posted by detch01
You haven't spent enough time in the pony if you believe that. The pony will out roll the 38, out climb it, out scissor it and provided you are above 275mph will out turn it and out zoom it. And yes the pony will out run the 38's. If you want to stay stuck in the popular prejudice against the pony, that's fine by me.
asw
Well, I'm going to disagree. I have tested all fighters for speed and climb, and the P-51s don't match up to the P-38J/L in a climb. From sea level through 30k, the P-38s climb faster than the P-51D.
The same goes for acceleration...
As to roll rate, it depends very much on which P-38 we look at. Nothing rolls faster than a P-38L above 300 mph, nothing.
The scissors is a defensive maneuver easily countered by the trailing fighter simply going vertical after the defender begins scissoring. The P-38 goes up, dumps flaps rolls inverted and 10 seconds later the Mustang goes pop.
Above corner speed, turn radius is limited by G loading.
I enjoy the P-51, but I would never try to out-climb a P-38 with any expectation of surviving.
You can be very successful with the P-51D, just as long as you avoid Co-E fights with more maneuverable, better climbing fighters (including the P-38s).
My regards,
Widewing
-
As Widewing has spoken, it has been said, now it is done, go forth enlightened.... :D
-
ALL HAIL WIDEWING!
WE'RE NOT WORTHY! *bow graciously at his feet*
-
Originally posted by ForrestS
O ya, there both excellent planes by the way. I fly them all the time.
Respectfully, I earnestly disagree. The 51, in it's current model, isn't a very good plane, compared to other LW rides. What does it do well? Very few things really. High speed handling is excellent and views are as well. Other than that there are planes that clearly outclass it.
It's speed is pretty good yes, but this is somewhat hampered by its uninspiring acceleration. There are several planes that are not only faster but more agile. Additionally, the tiffie and -a are nearly as fast and are better all around aircraft.(speaking of deck speeds here as most LW fights occur at or near the ground).
Acceleration, as alluded to, just plain sucks.
Roll rate is mediocre at most combat speeds.
Climb rate is average at best.
Lethality is quite average.
Ammo load out for the .50's is below average compared to other .50 rides.
Durability, again... unremarkable.
Turn rate is well below average, towards the bottom for all fighters.
Sure it has long legs, but this rarely comes into play in the small maps we are using.
In summary, the 51 is decidely outclassed by its contemporaries in the LW, as it stands today.
-
I usally BnZ with the P-51 (ask Dweebfire) or do ground attacks. :O
I usally dogfight with the P-38 or do ground attacks.
I think there excellent. :rolleyes: