Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKIron on July 21, 2007, 04:16:25 PM
-
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-afghan21jul21,1,3297809.story?coll=la-news-a_section
Think the Taliban will carry through on their threat killing these including 15 women? I don't think they will, what could they gain? They might make Korean Christians fear to go to Afghanistan but they aren't going to make the South Korean government withdraw their support there. I suspect they'll just hold 'em captive indefinitely.
-
the taliban are girlymen, if they had bolas they would attack china.
-
Originally posted by john9001
the taliban are girlymen, if they had bolas they would attack china.
heh. good one.
:D
-
The Taliban are idiots with an agenda to kill all Christians, Jews, and non-Muslims. Of course they'll kill them, you think they'll feed them for that long? They would probably kill them even if South Korea did what they asked.
-
Yay!
I'm waiting for the Holy Crusades again! I'm sharpening my sword and painting my cross on my tunic right now!
-
This following article on the situation was posted on Yahoo Asia yesterday. Obviously, paying off Jihadis is not a good idea. In essence its the old error of "danegeld" revived. The theory is that you pay off the evil men not to hurt you and yours - the problem is that they figure out pretty quickly that they can make quite a bit of money by threatening to hurt you and yours. In this case a lot of that money will be translated directly into IEDs, weapons, and ammunition to kill coalition forces some will go to train the next generation of Jihadis in the maddrassas over the border.
Most US missions organizations have a "no ransoms ever" policy, which was one of the reasons why when the Burnhams were captured by Abu Sayaff in the Phillipines no ransom was paid.
BTW - Drunky, your plan seems fitting given that the original Crusades weren't much of Christian endeavor either. However, if you really want a symbol that reveals what you are to the Taliban, you might want to consider staying home and painting a series of concentric circles of decreasing size, instead of a cross however.
2ND LD: Taliban get ransom to spare S. Korean hostages' lives: Official
(Kyodo) _ (EDS: UPDATING WITH RANSOM PAYMENT)
An Afghan official told Kyodo News Wednesday that a "huge amount of money" has been paid to Taliban minutes before their set deadline to stop them from killing 23 South Korean hostages.
But the Afghan official, who declined to be named, did not specify how much was paid. He said the Afghan government was also ready to trade eight Taliban prisoners with the South Korean hostages as had been demanded.
"They say we are the servants of Islam, but they are not, they are thieves, they are hungry for money," the official said, adding that the negotiations were continuing.
The development comes shortly after Yousif Ahmadi, a purported Taliban spokesman, told Kyodo News and other media by telephone that the militants had lost their patience with the progress of negotiations and had decided to kill some hostages if at least eight Taliban prisoners are not released by 2 p.m. local time.
Afghan and Taliban figures had earlier shown optimism that the hostage crisis would be resolved peacefully.
The South Koreans, mostly female nurses and teachers in their 20s and 30s who are part of an evangelical Christian group, were taken hostage at gunpoint Thursday while traveling to the southern city of Kandahar from the Afghan capital Kabul.
The Taliban initially demanded the withdrawal of South Korean military personnel from Afghanistan and had since been pressing for the release an equal number of Taliban prisoners, threatening to kill the hostages if their demands are not met.
South Korea has about 210 army medics and engineers stationed in Afghanistan on a non-combat reconstruction mission, which are scheduled to be withdrawn by the end of the year.
Negotiations have been under way between the Taliban kidnappers and the Afghan government amid news reports that a South Korean delegation began direct talks with the militia on Tuesday.
Meanwhile, an Afghan official said a German journalist and his Afghan translator have possibly been abducted from the house to which they had been invited in Kunar province of eastern Afghanistan.
The two have been missing since Tuesday night in the Watapur district of Kunar, said the official, a provincial spokesman.
-
BTW as a follow-up Drunky here are your Holy Warriors:
(http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/korean-taliban.jpg)
They had the temerity to "hate" and "oppress" the Afghans who are enjoying the blessings of the "religion of peace" by offering medical help and education without cost to the Afghans. One of the men in this picture was executed yesterday.
EDIT: Link to article Body of South Korean Youth Pastor Found (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070725/28603_Body_of_S._Korean_Youth_Pastor_Found.htm)
-
Originally posted by john9001
the taliban are girlymen, if they had bolas they would attack china.
I don't think any group on the planet is dumb enough to poke that great sleeping dragon with a stick. China would love the excuse to flex it's international power, influence, and military might against some uppity terrorists..... the result would be like a bug on a windshield.
As to the hostages, if the Taliban feel they are about to lose control of them (through a rescue attempt), or fee they will not be able to get any use out of them, they will be killed. They are foreigners, many are women, and infidels.... there is nothing there for them to relate to, so nothing to keep them from killing them.
That's who is on the extremists side of the equation.
-
"the release an equal number of Taliban prisoners"
why are there Taliban prisoners, they should have been killed fighting for Allah. Take no prisoners, it's simpler that way.
-
John, many people are wondering why there are still Taliban, when the mighty USA is after them. I still think we should have never declared open war, let them think they were safe, and they wouldn't have went into hiding. Then when that worked, and they weren't hiding, we fly stealth bombers over their heads and drop bombs at their feet. The Taliban are something that will not be fought with peace, they are blood hungry savages that have to be dealt with with force.
-
Hi Guys,
Here is the latest update regarding negotiations following the CBS story on a captive who made a phone call. (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070727/28633_Negotiations_Frantic_after_First_Plea_from_Korean_Christian_Hostage.htm) Apparently all the hostages are sick which is no big surprise.
Originally posted by McFarland
John, many people are wondering why there are still Taliban, when the mighty USA is after them. I still think we should have never declared open war, let them think they were safe, and they wouldn't have went into hiding. Then when that worked, and they weren't hiding, we fly stealth bombers over their heads and drop bombs at their feet. The Taliban are something that will not be fought with peace, they are blood hungry savages that have to be dealt with with force.
Sadly we know exactly where most of the Taliban are, they're just over the border in the refugee camps in Pakistan and where the next generation is being trained in the Madrassas (Quran in the Morning, combat arms in the afternoon). Since we are not allowed to drop bombs in Pakistan, getting to them there is almost impossible.
So instead we have to wait until they walk over the border, go to their arms cache, and hopefully get a chance to shoot them while they are still armed, because after they re-cache their weapons they return to non-combatant status and are not to be killed. And no, nobody ever won a war playing by these insane rules.
- SEAGOON
-
Originally posted by McFarland
John, many people are wondering why there are still Taliban, when the mighty USA is after them.
Saying the USA is after the Taliban is like saying America is in a War against terrorists. The reality is that only a small part of America is actively engaged in the war: those in the military and those directly supporting them. America on a whole is not engaged: No rationing. No shortages. No sacrifice. No great recruitment effort.
The U.S. Army's presence in Afghanistan is only 2 Combat Brigades and some detachments from SOCOM. In a country that big, that is not a great force to work with. NATO makes up the rest, and they are almost purely defensive in their restricted operations, which has a lot to do with European politics, and not NATO's military abilities. And we don't follow them into Pakistan..... a similar situation we faced in SE Asia once.
To say nothing of the building terrorists forces and camp throughout places like Indonesia and Bangladesh which we are not actively engaging.
-
Actually, in my post, I was being sarcastic about the US being after them, I was trying to make the same point you did, I just wasn't clear enough.
-
Unfortunately, another South Korean medical missionary was killed by the Taliban this morning.
The victim, "identified as 29 year-old Shim Sung-min was found about 50 miles from where the original group of 23 Korean Christian volunteers was abducted on July 19, near Qarabagh on the main highway.
Shim was said to have quit his job at a Seoul IT company two months ago to become a teacher to the disabled at a church in Seoul"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20036022/
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070731/28687_Second_Korean_Hostage_Body_Found%3B_New_Deadline_Looms.htm
Of late, their church Saemul Presbyterian, has been criticized for sending missionaries to such a dangerous place. I do not agree with this criticism, rather I praise God that he still raises up men like Shim who hear the voice of Jesus say: "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." and who answer by saying "I will follow" and dying to self they quit comfortable jobs, and take up their cross and serve their Savior in dangerous and difficult circumstances.
In prior centuries, it was understood that becoming a missionary was an assurance of an early death. It was said that the young men and women who served Christ in the mission field went out bearing their coffins with them. They went because they loved their Lord, they heard his call and they saw the need. They saw the sin, the sickness,the want, and the darkness in which many whom Christ died to save were living and their desire was to bring light in that darkness, to feed the hungry, tend to the sick, and bring the eternal hope of the gospel to a world without hope. So they went out with Christ's assurance: "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
As I read the story of these missionaries, I was reminded of the story of the awesome self-sacrifice of the Moravian missionaries of the 18th and 19th centuries, here is but one of their stories from a letter written by a Pastor to his congregation in 1839:
The most striking example of self-devotedness in the cause of Christ of which I ever heard in these days of deadness, was told here last week by an English minister. It has never been printed, and therefore I will relate it to you, just as I heard it, to stir up our cold hearts, that we may give ourselves to the Lord.
The awful disease of leprosy still exists in Africa. Whether it be the same leprosy as that mentioned in the Bible, I do not know, but it is regarded as incurable, and so infectious that no one dares to come near the leper. In the south of Africa there is a large lazarhouse for lepers. It is an immense space, enclosed by a very high wall, and containing fields, which the lepers cultivate. There is only one entrance, which is strictly guarded. Whenever anyone is found with the marks of leprosy upon him, he is brought to this gate and obliged to enter in, never to return. No one who enters in by that awful gate is ever allowed to come out again. Within this abode of misery there are multitudes of lepers in all stages of the disease. Dr. Halbeck, a missionary of the Church of England, from the top of a neighboring hill, saw them at work. He noticed two particularly sowing peas in the field. The one had no hands, the other had no feet - these members being wasted away by disease. The one who wanted the hands was carrying the other who wanted the feet upon his back, and he again carried in his hands the bag of seed, and dropped a pea every now and then, which the other pressed into the ground with his foot; and so they managed the work of one man between the two. Ah! how little we know of the misery that is in the world! Such is this prisonhouse of disease.
But you will ask, who cares for the souls of the hapless inmates? Who will venture to enter in at this dreadful gate, never to return again? Who will forsake father and mother, houses and land, to carry the message of a Savior to these poor lepers? Two Moravian missionaries, impelled by a divine love for souls, have chosen the lazarhouse as their field of labor. They entered it never to come out again; and I am told that as soon as these die, other Moravians are quite ready to fill their place. Ah! my dear friends, may we not blush, and be ashamed before God, that we, redeemed with the same blood, and taught by the same Spirit, should yet be so unlike these men in vehement, heart-consuming love to Jesus and the souls of men?
- SEAGOON
-
Drop one Nuke on the border of Pakistan/Afghanistan and blame it on the failed Nuke test of the Iranians.
Like killing two birds with one stone.
:aok
Mac
Problem solved.... Next?
-
Seagoon,
I'm not trying to be insensitive, but how could these hostages have possibly gotten into Afghanistan without the full knowledge and expectation that they would be martyred?
Seriously, a bunch of women and 2 men, representing a Christian church, went to a region occupied by numerous groups that think the only good Christian is a dead Christian, in addition to a firm cultural belief that women are nothing more than property.
What possible outcome, other than death, did they expect?
I guess it bugs me that the hostages are begging that everyone do "whatever is necessary" to save their lives (but not by violent means of course), when it should have been blatantly obvious that their current situation was very nearly inevitable. Being murdered because of their religion by people who justify the murder in the name of their own religion almost defines martyrdom, so I'd think that knowing the situation before they got there, they'd be overjoyed at the chance to get martyred.
I honestly can't imagine that they expected anything different than what they're getting. It's like locking yourself in your basement, eating rat poison, and then calling 911 begging for someone to save you without damaging the lock you put on the basement door. WTF?
-
When people put themselves in dangerous situations, and it becomes an incident that could cost many more lives, I find it irresponsible.
-
Just hear on Fox that the Afghanistans are staging a rescue mission.
Hope all goes well.
:confused:
Mac
-
Originally posted by Seagoon
Of late, their church Saemul Presbyterian, has been criticized for sending missionaries to such a dangerous place. I do not agree with this criticism, rather I praise God that he still raises up men like Shim who hear the voice of Jesus say: "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." and who answer by saying "I will follow" and dying to self they quit comfortable jobs, and take up their cross and serve their Savior in dangerous and difficult circumstances.
In prior centuries, it was understood that becoming a missionary was an assurance of an early death. It was said that the young men and women who served Christ in the mission field went out bearing their coffins with them.
All fine for them to follow their religion and faith. But, I'm with the opinion on FiLtH and eagl on this one. Is there any reason to expect anyone else to risk their own lives to go to their aid? Should countries change their official policies because of what these people chose to do on their own?
I'm not saying don't try to get their release, but considering who you are dealing with here, I don't expect a good outcome in such a situation.
And considering who has them and their views on women and infidels, those ladies are going to go through all sorts of abuse at the hands of their captors.
-
Hello Tedrbr et al,
Originally posted by tedrbr
All fine for them to follow their religion and faith. But, I'm with the opinion on FiLtH and eagl on this one. Is there any reason to expect anyone else to risk their own lives to go to their aid? Should countries change their official policies because of what these people chose to do on their own?
I'm not saying don't try to get their release, but considering who you are dealing with here, I don't expect a good outcome in such a situation.
And considering who has them and their views on women and infidels, those ladies are going to go through all sorts of abuse at the hands of their captors.
I actually ended up debating exactly the same point with an intel guy who covers Afghanistan last night.
First, let me say that the problem of aid workers being snatched and held hostage isn't merely a problem for Christian missionaries. Many of you will remember the Irish CARE (UN) official Magaret Hassan who was kidnapped by Jihadis in Iraq, forced on video to plead piteously for her life and then eventually shot. That same scenario has been repeated in countless countries throughout the 10/40 window over the past few years and the answer of many aid organizations to the deaths of its workers has been to withdraw entirely from those countries. Since the 1990s, for instance, the Taliban have systematically driven out the Western aid agencies and Christian missionaries, and by and large those losses have never been replaced (the Islamic world sends them guns, trucks, explosives and new recruits, but not food, aid, and medical help).
Many Christians of late have started adopting a similar opinion - namely that we shouldn't be sending missionaries anywhere dangerous, certain areas should be simply ceded to the devil and we should abandon the people of those areas to his tender mercies. Instead, we are only going to send help to the places where we will be safe, and thus the people who most need assistance and the gospel don't get it. They deserve a chance at life and eternal life as much as we do, and nothing else will change that area for the better other than a radical change of worldview, because worldview is the reason they send us bombs and we send them food and medicine.
This "no danger" policy runs directly counter to the historic practice of Christian missionaries, especially in the first 300 years when the whole world was essentially a hostile mission field. We need to be at least as willing to die to help and serve the lost as the Jihadis are to die killing infidels. The selfless example of those Moravians I mentioned above should be our standard because our calling is not to see how long we can stay alive in this world but how much good we can do for Christ while we are in it - regardless of the personal cost.
All that said, I will not attempt to argue certain things about this scenario. Christ said "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." While I admire their zeal for the kingdom this church did not follow the command to be wise as well as they could. For instance, getting to Kandahar by chartering a civilian bus and driving from Kabul is a sure ticket to accomplish nothing but capture. Also, while having women along in order to work with Afghan women is absolutely necessary, having the group be mostly made up of women was unwise. Additionally, I agree, when our lives are in jeopardy from our service to Christ we should not expect the world to come to our rescue. A friend argued that the coalition forces are in Afghanistan to kill the men holding them anyway, but I acknowledge that it would be far easier if they could do that by taking out the house with a JDAM rather than having to mount a far more hazardous rescue mission. So yeah, when you take up your cross and go to Afghanistan, don't expect to come home alive.
- SEAGOON
-
Well Eagler said what I've been thinking for a few days.
Why do so many of these missionaries insert themselves into regions in strife, then plead for help once they become ensnared?
I know they mean well, but now they've just fueled the enemies cause gaining ransom and news headlines.
-
Hi LePaul,
Originally posted by LePaul
Well Eagler said what I've been thinking for a few days.
Why do so many of these missionaries insert themselves into regions in strife, then plead for help once they become ensnared?
I know they mean well, but now they've just fueled the enemies cause gaining ransom and news headlines.
I was actually trying to answer that question, amongst others above. I'll admit that my posts should probably come with an executive summary.
Here's the best I can do to produce a one sentence summary of each paragraph on short notice -
--------------
I. Not just Christians but all aid organizations deal with the issues of kidnapping and violence in war torn regions with the result that many organizations pull their presence after incidents.
II. Some Christians have started adopting a "no dangerous areas" policy but that is were the need is greatest and unless heartchanging work is done there, the strife and conflict will never end.
III. Adopting a no danger policy runs against historic Christian practice, our calling, and the aims of the christian life.
IV. When we do go to serve Christ in dangerous areas we do need to be wiser about it than these South Koreans were and we should go in expecting to give up our lives in the work.
------------------
I'll add to the prior summary, that we aren't permitted to simply say to heck with every man, woman, and child in a particular country. Christ came into the world knowing that his own mercy mission to a hostile people would result in his own death and with the exception of John all of his apostles were also put to death for their faith and missionary activity. The servant is not greater than his Master.
- SEAGOON
-
Well I understand the sacrifices of helping others. I truly do.
But...tongue in cheek humor here... couldn't they go in equipped with hidden GPSs and other tracking devices, so we could find them in the event of issues? :) Sure makes laying a nice JDAM on the bad guys a bit easier!
-
Because the goal of any Christian is not to kill people, but to do good for evil.
-
Because the goal of any Christian is not to kill people, but to do good for evil.
True, McFarland. However...
You have to ask yourself, at what point does the toll in human lives justify it? I mean, how many converts to Christianity do you get, vs. The number of dead Missionaries?
Myself...I'd rather keep more good christians alive, rather than kill them for a few that might take the Lord's prayer.
There's other areas of the world that are not so violent, where christian missionaries' would be able to convert without losses.
-
Again, it isn't our choice of where to send them, but their own.
This is a "Danger" problem, but a muslim problem.
For example, I've heard stories about the Seebees during Vietnam. They were hardly ever touched by the VC because the road / infrastructure stuff they built could be used by everyone.
Where as the muslim problem, they are unwilling to even tolerate the presence of someone different, much less someone who wants to help them with food / medicine.
-
Hi Frode,
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
True, McFarland. However...
You have to ask yourself, at what point does the toll in human lives justify it? I mean, how many converts to Christianity do you get, vs. The number of dead Missionaries?
Myself...I'd rather keep more good christians alive, rather than kill them for a few that might take the Lord's prayer.
There's other areas of the world that are not so violent, where christian missionaries' would be able to convert without losses.
I understand and appreciate your concern, but there are problems with it.
It leaves us with a situation in which certain peoples and nations are almost totally neglected and often these neglected areas are the places that need the gospel and physical and medical assistance the most. Also, more than anything it has helped to create the situation we are dealing with now. Prior to 611 AD, the majority of North Africa, Asia Minor, Palestine, the Balkans, and portions of the Arabian peninsula had been evangelized and had become Christian. Those areas all became part of the Dar-El-Islam via Jihad, and no major attempts were ever made to re-evangelize those areas precisely because mission work in them was a death sentence and converts were put to death in accordance with Sharia law. Since the 19th century, limited works have been done in those areas and there is probably more missionary work progressing in the Dar-El-Islam than ever before, (and unfortunately those efforts are now increasinlgy being targeted and eliminated both by Jihadis and government authorities, hence events like the recent attacks in Turkey, Yemen, etc.)
But unless we are willing to go and quite probably die, what hope does that portion of the world have? Secular aid organizations are willing to help, but not if that probably involves dying in the process, and while these people need food and medicine and clean water, they need much more than that. If we don't change hearts and minds as well, all the problems will continue and the physical aid will quickly be used up. Our response to places like Afghanistan cannot be merely military, and 20 years have shown that simply sending them food and medicine doesn't help. There biggest problem is the hegemony of the Masjids and the Madrassas where the new Jihadis train daily, and which the Saudis are bankrolling. We cannot afford to leave these people in the awful condition they are in...
Anyway, here is the testimony of a Afghan convert on the subject as reported by Compass:
An Afghan convert to Christianity told Compass that local Afghans were not able to differentiate between missionaries and non-governmental organization workers, automatically assuming that all foreigners were Christians.
"For an ordinary Afghan, anyone who is from Europe or America is a Christian," the convert said. He said that before this incident most Afghans were not aware to which religion Koreans "belonged" but now would assume that all Koreans are Christians.
Responding to accusations that the group decided to travel to Afghanistan without heeding travel warnings, the convert said that the aid workers could have been more careful. The Koreans had decided to travel by bus along a dangerous stretch of road to Kandahar when no flights to the city were available.
But the convert said he supported the group's decision to visit Afghanistan and that he hoped the Christian presence in the country would continue.
During the Taliban regime, the main expatriate group in Afghanistan was Christians, " the Christian said. They were here to help Afghanistan ... no one else had the guts to come and help this war-torn country."
He said that Christians were called to serve, at times at a very high cost.
"Thank you for coming to Afghanistan to serve my people," the Afghan said, addressing the hostages and other Korean Christians who had served in Afghanistan. "Thank you for letting the world know, 'Don't forget Afghanistan.' Your Afghan brothers in faith are praying for you daily."
- SEAGOON