Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yarbles on July 25, 2007, 08:28:39 AM
-
I find myself flying both the P51'S more and more and really like the speed, range, ammo load and general handling.
Can anyone tell me the best way to use them to get kills and explain any technical terms as I ve only just bought my first book and have nt had time to read it yet :)
-
The Pony loves speed. Keep her fast, it's one of the best handling plane at high speeds and as a good instantaneous turn rate. While it's fast at every altitude, it's better to keep her at some altitude, going to the deck only in emergencies. Not only some planes are a tad faster there (La7, Tempest, Typhoon, 190D9 ) but many slower planes can get enough speed by diving onto you.
Always watch your energy, either stored in altitude or in raw speed, as the P51 is not one of the best accelerating fighters. Climb rate isn't any spectacular too. On the plus side, it's clean aerodynamics result in a fine capability to hold that E.
Pony has probably a better view from cockpit than any other fighter. Use this huge advantage!
Flaps do help you at turning, but use them sparingly. One or two notches as needed, but don't leave them down longer than absolute neccessary. Full flaps don't help much at all, they mostly just slow you down. Avoid prolonged dogfights with more maneuverable opponents, unless you have developed a high level of proficiency in this ship.
Last but not least, make sure you have your convergence set to the distance you usually fire at. If hitting your target at convergence range, the 6 .50cal guns can have a good snapshot kill capability.
-
Very Well Said Lusche. Thank you for that.
I would also say if you know you are going to dog fight in it, your better with drop tanks, and 50% fuel. Just to lighten the load a tad, the 51 holds alot of fuel for a fighter.
-
Originally posted by Lusche
The Pony loves speed. Keep her fast, it's one of the best handling plane at high speeds and as a good instantaneous turn rate. While it's fast at every altitude, it's better to keep her at some altitude, going to the deck only in emergencies. Not only some planes are a tad faster there (La7, Tempest, Typhoon, 190D9 ) but many slower planes can get enough speed by diving onto you.
Always watch your energy, either stored in altitude or in raw speed, as the P51 is not one of the best accelerating fighters. Climb rate isn't any spectacular too. On the plus side, it's clean aerodynamics result in a fine capability to hold that E.
Pony has probably a better view from cockpit than any other fighter. Use this huge advantage!
Flaps do help you at turning, but use them sparingly. One or two notches as needed, but don't leave them down longer than absolute neccessary. Full flaps don't help much at all, they mostly just slow you down. Avoid prolonged dogfights with more maneuverable opponents, unless you have developed a high level of proficiency in this ship.
Last but not least, make sure you have your convergence set to the distance you usually fire at. If hitting your target at convergence range, the 6 .50cal guns can have a good snapshot kill capability.
Sorry but this gives rise to a few questions (Iam doing a bit of reading myself though so one day I may be able to get off the collective tit).
1)"and has a good instantaneous turn rate" ?
2)"snapshot kill capability" ?
:o :confused: :o :D
-
Originally posted by 4deck
Very Well Said Lusche. Thank you for that.
I would also say if you know you are going to dog fight in it, your better with drop tanks, and 50% fuel. Just to lighten the load a tad, the 51 holds alot of fuel for a fighter.
I ve noticed this and drop one tank on take off as you would seldom need both. When I want to carry a major ord load I sometimes take 75%. Is it best then to burn the auxillary tank first as this is the one that de stabilised the plane. I think I read this somewhere but because of its proximity to the centre of gravity it seems counter intuitive. Any info on this?
-
Instantaneous turn rate is defined by the turning performance you achieve momentarily at higher speeds. The F4U corsair for example can drop flaps 10 degrees at around 250 mph, and if you pull on the stick at the same time, you get a really quick, and tight turn since the flaps are helping you turn tighter.
After you turn for a while longer, your plane starts to slow down too much due to drag and its turn rate becomes slow because those flaps may be helping you turn tighter, but your moving so slow, it's really not doing you any good. This continuous turning is known as sustained turn rate, at which the P-51 Mustang performs poorly. Remember, you can determine how most aircraft perform in turns when you calculate their wing-loading or weight-to-wing area ratio. Planes with slats and bent wings may surprise you though ;)
A snapshot kill is defined by a victory gained when the enemy aircraft is in your shot solution for a split second and you fire a burst at that split second. If he goes down with that short burst, that's a snapshot kill.
And yes, the P-51 Mustang did have a huge rear fuel tank of fuel which did inhibit some smelly handling qualities and some pilots would actually drain that tank before the drop tanks because of the instability it caused. You won't really feel it since we have our combat trim system which automatically keeps the plane stable but you will feel the affect in maneuvers. The rear tank (labeled as AUX on the fuel tank gage in the game) is only filled at all during 75 - 100% fuel loads.
-
Thankyou pappy all of that is now as clear as my 6 is going to be:D
-
Here's a write up i did on my website:
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AKUAG/TheVault_Files/P51Guide.aspx
-
private message me and i might be able to help you out p51 is sorta my specialty:rolleyes:
-
private message me and i might be able to help you out p51 is sorta my specialty:rolleyes:
-
Freezman is very good in the pony......
Fly a jug. That way ya cant run hardly ever and 8 .50's are fun.
All kidding aside...find freezman....he can give ya some serious help.
even is he does say it twice:lol
-
ahhh dammit double post bahhh:D
ty red top yes im willing to help you out just pm what time your on im on break currently but will be returning for a few days in august:aok
-
Yarbles,
go check out the Aces High Training Staff's Website for information regarding the different turn types
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/ (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/)
Instantaneous Turns vs. Sustained Turns (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/instturn/instturn.htm)
also read up on Turning on the edge of the Blackout/Turning on the edge of the Stall & read up on Lead, Pure & Lag Pursuit (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/pursuit/pursuit.htm)
go check out DOK's
Aces High Fighter Comparison Website (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php)
pick / click on from 1 to 2, 3, or even 4 plane models on the left then click the submit button..it will show you how the plane you are wanting information for matches /sizes up to up to 3 other different plane types ( the turn radius part I do believe is for sustained turn rate/radius only mean bested sustained turn. )
I am not sure how updated Dok & the contributors keep Dok's website.....either
One thing I would encourage you to consider, is as long as you can pull 6 G's or more or are above 225/230 I would not ( my self personally ) even consider using flaps any at all with maybe that 1 rare occassion ....... I find the 225/230 IAS speed mark to be a good reference point to sometimes pop out the 1st notch.....
The combat Trim / Manual Trim is a personal preference as well, just like one's convergence points....
I prefer to get the P51D up to around 325/340 IAS in level flight and manual Trim to that speed ( or let the Combat Trim do the work for you at that speed.) Once you are cruising along level at 325 to 340 IAS ( indicated Air Speed in MPH = the White Needle ) then turn off Combat Trim ( toggle Ctrl-X) or just manual Trim there and leave it....... To me this allows the plane to perform much better than fighting the CT trimming effect when trying to obtain a guns solution ( helps steady the nose of the plane ) and allows for a more precise pull to your target windows rather than pushing the nose down ( ie again fighting the CT elevator trimming ).......
as others have said, keep her fast, and let her breathe......instantaneous turns are awesome in this plane very good for offensive attacks un unsuspecting victims because she can turn quite quickly ........
Cardinal Rules:
Always keep enough speed to go vertical
Fighting Style Dependent - if BnZing bug out if speed drops below 180/170 extend and setup attack again
if Turn/Angles /stall fighting try not to go below your sustained turn rate speed, disengage and extend resetup for a remerge......
E = Alt + Speed = Life ( not saying fly around at 20k alt all the time either though )
The trim setting I use, lets me quickly regain speed when I come over the top of a loop or nose down! again because it is not fighting the Combat Trim there is less exposed surface there for to cause increased drag ( although trim tabs cause very little drag, this is best way I can think of describing the effect right now )....... my prefered guns convergence is 350 for all guns as well.....but I prefer high deflection/snapshots
now I am not against CT ( Combat Trim ), and or scaling.......what works best for you is what you should do..period!!! but you never know what you might learn if you experiment with the different settings and flying Styles.........might possibly find something to improve one's own game :aok
good luck , hope this helps
-
Thank you very much for the offer of help Iam on vacation u ntil mid auguust and then I am looking forwrd to getting in touch. :)
-
I think I read a post by Widewing stating that the P-51 in our game actually had a turn radius that was 100 feet too long... I wonder how much more arse the P-51 would kick with that extra 100 feet.
-
Another Pony Dweeb in the making :)! Outstanding! This coming from a fellow Pony Dweeb of course. Lots of good responses here in this thread. I especially liked Spatula's write up on his website.
As strange as it sounds I was really torn about responding to this topic. Why? Allow me to be obtuse for a moment and give my personal commentary :)
=========================================
Tango's Three Laws of Air Combat:[list=1]
- There are no absolutes in air combat; it's all relative
- You can't defy aerodynamics
- The way we fly reflects the way we think
The reason I am torn is because of #1 and #3. When someone asks a question like "what are the best ways" of using a particular aircraft you get a lot of advice like what's been mentioned. The trouble is the advice is really all relative. It's relative to energy states. It's relative to aircraft capability. It's relative to airspeeds. It's relative to weight. It's relative to separation distances. The list goes on.
The problem is when we take this advice as absolutes. You see it all the time in different ways in statements like "the Mustang is a B&Z fighter", "I only turnfight", "it's an energy fighter, not a stall fighter", blah blah blah. E.g. - when is a fighter an energy fighter vs. an angles fighter? Actually the whole categorization that it's an energy fighter vs. an angles fighter is off to begin with. It's really when should you use energy tactics vs. angles tactics? The answer to that question is all relative to a given situation.
This leads to Law #3. The way we fly reflects the way we think. If we think in absolute terms then we fly our aircraft in absolute terms. If we think in relative terms then we fly our aircraft in relative terms. I know, quite esoteric. It has big implications though. So if we take the advice on aircraft as absolute then we fly it in a way that absolutely paints ourselves into a box for flying that airplane :). Free your mind! Remember the 1st law, it's all relative!
I'm done ranting!
With all that being said as a HUGE HUGE caveat to what I'm about to post, here is short list I put together years ago for the 412th. It is meant to be a fundamental guide as only a starting point to learning to fight in the Mustang. Some of it has already been stated but reworded in a more pithy (I hope!) manner.
===============================================
Brief P-51D Guide for New Mustang Pilots: ("Top 10 P-51D Survival Tips")
[list=1]
- Stay above the fight.[/b] Convert your speed to altitude whenever possible to stay above the fight. This doesn't mean living in the stratosphere being so high above bogies that you are useless. The idea is to stay just out of reach from the bogies below. This will let you dance on everyone else's heads at will so learn to use the high perch.
- Speed is life.[/b] If you're not above the fight then stay fast. Speed gives you maneuvering options and separation options. A rule of thumb is to be AT LEAST at 260 mph indicated airspeed (white needle)or above. The more speed you have the better. This is crucial to remember because the P-51 accelerates slowly relative to other aircraft in AH! Remember this! One of the P-51's characteristics to use is it's low parasite drag which means it is one of the faster planes in AH. Use this to your advantage.
- Don't get low and slow.[/b] The quickest way to die in the P-51 is to end up low and slow. Avoid being in this situation at all cost. The typical pattern is trying to get that last kill and ending up in a close-in knife fight. There are times for this but 75% of the time you should avoid this self-defeating pattern.
- Develop situational awareness and exit the fight earlier vs. later. [/b] Always be scanning the skies around you to assess the situation. Learn to judge the energy states of friendly and enemy planes. Fight the urge to get that one last kill especially when the odds are quickly changing against your favor. If you're getting outnumbered then exit. If you're at moderate to low energy states, exit the fight. Your patience will pay out huge dividends in helping you live to come back and get more kills.
- Conserve your energy.[/b] Use maximum performance turns and maneuvers SPARINGLY and ONLY AS NECESSARY. Avoid prolonged maneuvering with a bandit! This leads easily to becoming low and slow. A rule of thumb is make no more than 1-2 turns with a bogey, or turning through no more than 90 degrees on a single pass. In the offensive use high yo-yo's or zoom-climb-and-pitchback maneuvers to stay in the rear quarter of the bogey. At other times try and use gentle low-g maneuvers (2-3 g's). Throwing the P-51 around the sky like a Spitfire or N1K2-J will invite some accelerated stalls so learn to be gentler with your control inputs. There IS a time and place for maximum performance maneuvers, especially in the evasive or defensive situation. Also learning when to employ max performance maneuvers in the offensive for the P-51 takes time to develop a feel for knowing when to trade that altitude or speed for angles for a shot. However, the majority of the time will probably call for low-g, or energy conserving maneuvers.
- Turn in the vertical.[/b] Somewhat of a corellary to the above- instead of flat turns, use vertical upward turns such as an immelmans or oblique immelmans (oblique turns in the vertical). This helps you to efficiently use your energy as well as get a gravity assist with your turns to improve your turn performance. When tracking a bogey from above keep your nose either pointed up or level with the horizon vs. pointed down until you're ready to make the attack or unless you need to build up speed. This will help you maximize your energy as well as control your speed so that you will be at the optimal energy state for offensive or defensive maneuvers.
- Take snapshots.[/b] Don't try and stay close on a bandit for more than 4-5 seconds unless you are completely out of danger. Use slashing attacks where you have 2-4 seconds to make snapshots or very brief tracking shots. Any longer and you will end up in prolonged maneuvering which will bleed your energy quickly. Get good at high deflection gunnery. Typical snapshot opportunities occur at moderate to high deflection angles so being able to down the enemy at high deflections is important. Practice and learn to hit targets at various deflections helping you become lethal in using slashing attacks vs. attacks requiring prolonged maneuver.
- Use teamwork.[/b] Wing-up with someone. The P-51 isn't the easiest to learn to get out of jam by yourself nor is it easily suited for single plane sorties (though you can use it this way). The P-51 really shines as two wingman work in close concert with each other against enemies. A pair of P-51's can wreak havoc on enemy numbers of up to at least 3-4 times their numerical strength with the right conditions and using good wingman tactics.
- Avoid Head-On's.[/b] Don't go for head-ons and avoid them. .50 caliber machine guns vs. 20mm cannons is a poor matchup. The cannon armed planes will win the head-on 9 out of 10 times. A good number of the aircraft in AH are armed with cannons (or 8 .50's! as in the case of the P-47) so the odds are against you winning a head-on while flying a P-51.
- Have altitude insurance.[/b] Leave altitude to work with so that you have options to get the heck out of dodge when you get into trouble. A good portion of evasive maneuvers for the P-51 can be summed up simply as spoiling the enemy's shot as much as possible as you try and pick up speed to get separation and use the P-51's speed to run out of danger. Usually you need altitude below you to accomplish this.
Cheers!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
bahh i thought we werent converting this month:D
-
I am compelled to bring good news to the heathen ;).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
lol
-
Tango. RE: The relativity of combat - Nicely put!
Most people seem to always talk in absolutes, like when in position X, the magic move will be Y. I guess its people who are on the steep learning curve want to believe there are absolute rules or magic moves which will always win the day without fail. If somehow they can learn these static moves then they'll instantly become experten or a vet. They are disappointed when they learn the answers tend to be more complicated than their original questions.
The answer to almost all questions really is... "It depends"...
-
Bump. Good info for a new pilot like myself.
-
Great find, Very helpful! :aok
Spatula's site is also very informative.
If you want even more good stuff to read and watch visit Murder's site. I don't have the link to it tho. Google 479th raiders I believe
-
Nice find Cajun...I've been learning this game mostly in a 51
-
I've always lived by one rule, regardless of the plane chosen and that is "Fly it like you stole it."
I've turn fought (no angles BS) in 152's, 51's, 190F8's, etc and have fun shooting down some and getting shot down some. When you limit yourself, you've already lost the fight.
I also realize I'm not that great at this game.
-
I've tried to see what a P51 is capable of.
But of course, I don't fly them......
I try to observe from my own cockpit, but they are going too fast usually.
I didn't realize (from my own experiences against them), that they were so versatile.
I thought you were supposed to climb to 20k, come in for a failed and awkward pass on some unsuspecting dope, miss, try once more with a HO shot, then run like hell back to momma when the guy you gave up angles to (on the HO attempt) gets on your six.
Who woulda thunk? :noid
-
ask Steve, the guys the best there is in that crate.
-
Steve IS very good in a pony. I have also never seen him (or any other muppet) run from a fair fight.
Most folks I find in a Pony (not all, so don't everyone get all fired up) do exactly as I described above.
I don't even try to bother engaging P51's anymore, because 99% of the time (in my experience) all they do is run like hell, either to friends or to ack. When called out for it, there is always the "I was out of ammo" excuse ( or some other excuse)
For a plane that is capable of what is described in this thread, I find it twice as lame for folk to run in it as much as they do.
As far as the guys who catch crap for "picking" in a P51? :aok
I have no problem with that. I have found the secret to not being picked.......... shhhhhhhh......
here it is...............
LOOK AROUND ONCE IN A WHILE !!!!!!
If you expect a 1vs1 in the MA you are lying to yourself. If a pony picks you, it's your own fault.
-
Might be a good sight for the 51. I was trying to work on one that fit it and came up with a few. I used a film Steve recently posted killing C47's to try and match up where he was aiming to hit them.
If you load this sight into your 51 and play the film back in slo-mo you'll find I came pretty close.
My problems with the 51 has always been how the 50's drop when you add any back pressure on the stick. HTC has changed the way the 50's act 3 times that I know of. AKDG had a couple of posts about it and in talking to him he was pretty upset about having to relearn the guns every time they do that. All he flies is the 51....not sure he's around anymore but definitely one of the very best 51 sticks out there.
The film
http://www.mediafire.com/?jnumwjmya3z
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/Cajun-2.jpg)
You can save this sight right from here. Just right click and choose save as. then find it on your hard drive and copy and paste right into your sights folder no problem.
-
Lots of wise people gave great info in this thread. FWIW, I disagree with a couple of the "top ten survival tips"
The first one, I feel strongly about in disagreement :"Stay above the fight"
If you are above the fight, the highest or nearly highest guy, you are going to garner a lot of attention from the planes below you, and especially to those entering the area from high. A high pony is considered a real threat. This means that you will spend more time defensive than a lower plane, ponies included. I participate in a fight from lower alts than most ponies for this reason. That, and usually I'm too lazy to grab much past even 8k. A defensive pony will have to burn E in evasives and you won't be getting a lot of kills dodging high zoomers.
I tell this to people who fly with me. I "get small"( a bit different than Steve Martin's version). In other words, I have no problem lingering in a fight with high cons around because there are other friendlies above me, making bigger threats and also better targets. A 4k pony appears to be much less a threat than three 8k spixteens. So as the high guys enter a fight, they see other targets of opportunity/threats, and they usually leave me alone. As an additional deterrent, I stay fast enough that killing me would be a PITA. The zoomers are looking for easy kills. Even a very low pony is a big problem to kill if he has speed. On the occasion where a high plane singles me out and persists, I use my speed to pull him away for a 1v1. I don't mind this at all.
Another one I disagree with some: "Don't get low and slow."
Hey, get low and slow if you feel like it. With sharp SA, you can do just fine. Sure a low and slow pony is going to look cherry and thus get some attention but this also means you will be getting in fights and having fun. With even 2k of alt you can build enough speed to be hard to kill/ have plenty of E to fight. Finally, a deck pony may be at a disadvantage, but you can still outfly the other guy! You are going to die plenty... but you'll learn invaluable things along the way.
Here's the three most important things for me:
1) Sharpen your SA.
Most guys are looking for an easy kill. A pony with any speed who is also aware of the threats around him is going to be a real pain to kill. Most people will not bother with you if you are not easy to bag.
2) Learn to shoot.
Long gun solutions burn precious E and drop SA to dangerous levels. "tunnel vision". While everyone will tell you the .50's are lazers (they are), to be an assassin you need to get that quick killing burst in by putting bullets on the target at convergence. If you are saddlling up in a furball, you are an inefficient killer and will undoubtedly be a victim of the pick. Get the shot, kill the bad guy, reset your SA and get back to the hunt quickly.
3) Be aggressive:
Too often I see a pony who is trying to run just fly straight ahead til he is shot down.(or trying some feeble negative E manuever.... or that stupid, near stick stir, up and down elevator dodge. Try this on a vet and you are DEAD)
If you are getting run down, turn around and fight the guy, make him kill you. You'll be surprised at how often you catch people off guard. Remember, they are expecting a toothless runstang. Go after them. You may still die, but you were going to anyway. Even if you get in this fight and can't turn the tables, there's a good chance that your aggression will cause your opponent to make some mistake that will allow you to slip away.
If they are too close to simply reverse 180 and fight then: Everyone who is running you down is going to have the throttle cobbed; they see a runstang in front of them. A simple barrol roll or scissor with the throttle closed some will often cause these guys to wildly over shoot as they are afraid to slow down and let you get away. Force the overshoot then decide whether to fight or simply duck out and leave.
If all you want to do is survive... go ahead and stay above the fight, always in fear of the higher opponent. Do this, and you are just another runstang pilot.
There's no reason why you can't get down and dirty in the 51. Keep a little speed and you will find success and have some fun in the process. You'll die plenty, like I do, but you'll see plenty of action. :aok
-
Steve,
Thanks so much! You've obliviously watched my brilliant noobieness in action! "(or trying some feeble negative E manuever.... or that stupid, near stick stir, up and down elevator dodge. Try this on a vet and you are DEAD)[/size] " :D
I do have a question. You mentioned barrel rolls and scissors with low/cut throttle to push an overshoot on a Con coming in fast but what if they are matching speed and coming from low? Are there some other effective counters when I have someone on my 6 and I cant shake them?
-
I do have a question. You mentioned barrel rolls and scissors with low/cut throttle to push an overshoot on a Con coming in fast but what if they are matching speed and coming from low? Are there some other effective counters when I have someone on my 6 and I cant shake them?
The first part of defeating the bad guy on your six is to see him early enough. Live in a world of paranoia. Check your surroundings (not just your six) constantly. When I'm in a fight, I'd say less than 75% of my mind is on the guy I'm fighting, the rest is on what's going on around me. You don't need to take your "eye" off your target necessarily, you can just pay attention to the periphery as you roll through the fight, with just some well-timed glances into blind sections of your environment.
Anyway, what that means is that if you're doing your SA job well, the guy crawling up behind you is no surprise. He may still be there, but you know about it in time to think.
Getting an overshoot is more about closure rate than actual speed differences between you and your opponent. Even if you're both about the same speed, if you can turn so he approaches from your side, he'll still have a high closure rate. So, that's my first/favorite option. I'll turn to the side (usually to the right, and usually about 100 degrees), generally slightly nose down (10 degrees?) to retain my speed, and with the goal of having him approach from my side-rear. I'll start doing this turn when he's about 1.5 out, level back out, and as he comes through D600, I just pull up into about a 30 degree climb (he'll often shoot at you right there, and your flightpath change will disrupt his aim). I hold this climb for maybe 1/2 to 1 second, watching my opponent to judge his speed. 99% of the time he'll be set up to zoom past me (overshoot) below and behind me. If this is the case, I just roll over onto his six and go from there. In this case, I'll have initiated this maneuver with a nose-low right-hand turn, leveled out, pull up, and rolled left onto his six.
I prefer to initiate an overshoot while I have nearly equal speed with my opponent. I'm going to lose some speed with my turning, and once I get onto his six I want to have enough speed to do something about it. Of course, I don't always get what I want...
An opponent crawling up on my six at nearly equal speed gets tossed into one of two groups for me right off the bat.
Group one, is the guy who's coming as fast as he can (even if he's barely closing on me), and just doesn't have any choice but to barely catch me. He's generally easy to get to overshoot. He's more concerned with you getting away than anything else, and isn't considering you much of a threat. He'll fall nicely into the maneuver described above.
Group two, is the guy who's regulating his closure rate to give him the shot he's looking for, and intently watching you for signs of your intentions. This guy is dangerous, and probably won't fall for that previously mentioned tactic. Overshoots don't work nicely with someone who's regulating closure. And unfortunately, it's tough to describe how to beat this guy, because as soon as you shift tactics, he'll probably adjust and shift his as well. In general terms, I'd be looking to reverse back (low yo-yo) at him for a merge. Second choice would be something along the lines of a rolling scissors, next choice might be a quick flat scissors, or a descending spiral if I'm high enough. Generally, I'm thinking in that order, because those tactics get more energy-expensive, and I'll run out of options sooner. Regardless, I will not pull my nose up unless I know he can't quite get to me. You're going to start out reacting to him (which is bad). You'll either die, or end up reversing the roles and causing him to react to you. He's going to start out dictating the terms of the fight. One "trick" that seems to work well for me is to convince this guy that I'm predictable, in order to make his attack predictable. To do that I''l start out with that right turn so get him closing form my side-rear, and level out, just as mentioned above. But as he closes to guns-range, I don't pull up and roll onto his back. I push down instead. That almost always seems to get him briefly out of sync, and allows me to keep my speed up as well. It'll be a brief dive of maybe 10 degrees for about a second before I level out, and adjust my heading. I may be able to then turn for a more normal merge, or my "normal" overshoot/barrel roll defense may work "properly" on his next pass, because while he recognizes the set-up, he doesn't really know my intentions (and even I may not know, until the last instant as I judge his approach...)
Now, if the guy crawling up on you is a surprise (SA failure), you've already screwed up, and will probably need to pay for it with a more expensive manuever if you don't have time to judge/set-up anything better. A quick break turn, or jink, or one, two, or three scissors may get him out of sync with you, and give you some breathing/thinking room. You'll be considerably slower/lower E as a result, so going from there may be difficult, but not impossible. A split S may be a good option. Pulling nose up would probably not be a good option!
Another consideration for the guy barely crawling up behind/below you is whether he can maintain that closure long enough to be dangerous. Sure, he's catching you, but will he get close enough for a shot? A slower plane with some retained dive-energy maybe? Maybe all you need to do is level out, while he continues his slight climb (and slows as a result). Let closure cease, and extend away or maybe even take it up into a rope.
Last resort, go nose-down and dive away. Or maybe go nose-down to pick up speed and appear to be diving away (convince him to WEP it to keep up!) and then set him up for an overshoot...
I would avoid getting too slow too quick. Don't be afraid of it, but realize that getting slow does limit your options to some extent. It also gives you some different/added options, but overall it's generally a disadvantage, particularly against someone experienced.
The key is to not panic, and think about the hows and whys of what's happening. SA gives you that option. A plane like the pony does have some very strong points, but you need to have your head wrapped around the situation to capitolize on them.
-
The 51-B is certainly able to hold its own aqainst uber turn fighters. So much so that I will fight a hurricane or zeke if I am above 5k. Even if you lose your position you can convert altitude into speed and seperation. In a turn fight my flaps are going crazy and the throttle is also a big key. The 51's combat flaps allow you to out turn almost all planes above 250 KIAS. Keep the fight running down hill and it will hang with anything for a while. Force overshoots and make gains by keeping the fight 3-d and jumping angles. Its certainly not a BnZ only fighter and is great in the TnB if you learn it.
Edit: If your looking to force an overshoot dont be afraid to pop flaps. Not only do they improve turn radius they burn energy faster than most planes can. However, for me this is the biggest key........never ever ever do anything in a flat plane.
Strip
-
The 51-B is certainly able to hold its own aqainst uber turn fighters. So much so that I will fight a hurricane or zeke if I am above 5k. Even if you lose your position you can convert altitude into speed and seperation. In a turn fight my flaps are going crazy and the throttle is also a big key. The 51's combat flaps allow you to out turn almost all planes above 250 KIAS. Keep the fight running down hill and it will hang with anything for a while. Force overshoots and make gains by keeping the fight 3-d and jumping angles. Its certainly not a BnZ only fighter and is great in the TnB if you learn it.
Edit: If your looking to force an overshoot dont be afraid to pop flaps. Not only do they improve turn radius they burn energy faster than most planes can. However, for me this is the biggest key........never ever ever do anything in a flat plane.
Strip
:rofl :rofl :rofl
I love it when 51 drivers think there able to turn with the hurri, look me up in MA and I will show you why that is a bad idea.
-
Calling Steve and OLDEMON to Thread 210845.
-
Given equal pilots I agree.....but if you know your plane better its entirely possible. In fact there are few pilots I meet in a equal 1v1 that I cant fight or escape. Personnally I love pilots who think the 51 is a lead sled that cant turn. When in fact in certain areas it is one of the best turn fighters in the game. At high speed and the speed right before some planes can get there flaps out being among them. If a pilot in a true TnB aircraft maintains throttle control your going to be in a very tough spot. However if you take a hurricane and dont keep track of your airspeed I will make you regret it. Notice the words "even if you lose".....hence there are some fights you cant win. If you have E and see yourself losing position you can easily exit the fight against a hurricane. So sorry....I dont see your point. Only exploring what you know the plane is capable of is a disservice to yourself and the plane. Push the envelope and get aggressive if you have alt to disengage if it turns sour.
Edit: Heck....push the envelope as challenge to yourself no matter what position your in. The worse thing that happens is you learn another way to die and up a new plane.
Strip