Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on July 27, 2007, 04:10:29 PM
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2 TV helos following a police chase in Phoenix collided and crashed into a city park with 4 souls onboard. KTVK Channel 3 in Phoenix confirmed that one of their news helicopters was involved in the crash. KNXV-TV Channel 15 reported that one of the choppers belonged to the station.
:(
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Saw video of the crash site. :(
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:(
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I didn't feel comfortable posting the crash site here. If there was a bright side of this, at least they came down in the park and not the residential area. I heard as many as 5 helos were up covering the chase and the helo from Channel 10 caught the incident live.
This is an avoidable tragedy. I know ratings are important for stations, but covering a police pursuit really has no business on live TV. All anyone watches for is the eventual crash and related gore. Unfortunately, this time it was the aircraft.
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Originally posted by rpm
This is an avoidable tragedy. I know ratings are important for stations, but covering a police pursuit really has no business on live TV. All anyone watches for is the eventual crash and related gore. Unfortunately, this time it was the aircraft.
Yep. Ratings put them in harm's way.
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To threadjump a bit, should the person being chased by the police be charged with murdering them?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
To threadjump a bit, should the person being chased by the police be charged with murdering them?
no! why?
the Helos are private companys, doing this chase with cameras
for what reason, yes that we can watch it live. No other reason.
Its an accident, was it worth ? dont ask me, ask the family of the pilot.
no return, gone is gone.
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There have been similar incidents where culprits were charged and convicted of contributing so it could happen.
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Just watched a report. It was a LOW speed chase. There is footage of them going in. The last words were "Oh Jeez!" :(
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Um, where could I find this footage? Our local news isnt covering it, and im interested in exactly what happened.
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I went to the channel 10 web site but they are not playing a clip of the collision. They are covering the crash site and doing interviews.
One of the interviews talked about the chase. The suspect had rammed multiple Police cars. When his original vehicle died he either jacked or stole another one and continued. Last I heard on it was that the suspect was baricaded in a house. Unknown if he has a weapon or hostages. Details are sketchy on what I saw.
Update, news stating that there were no survivors. Not surprising but still sad.
RIP to both crews.
I'd imagine that new FAA regs regarding this kind of situation may be coming as a result of this.
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http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3645.html
Mind you they are already discussing charging him with negligent homicide for the deaths of the helicopter crews.
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Originally posted by Serenity
Um, where could I find this footage? Our local news isnt covering it, and im interested in exactly what happened.
http://cbs11tv.com/national
I think this is the report I watched. I'm on dialup so I can't preview it for you.
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Originally posted by Serenity
Um, where could I find this footage? Our local news isnt covering it, and im interested in exactly what happened.
There is no footage of the mid-air crash itself. All cameras were trained on the chase. There is footage from inside one chopper for a couple of seconds, but it doesn't show the collision.
I have seen one picture of one of the choppers folded up in mid air, and the other relatively complete trailing smoke and nose down in a terminal dive.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
There is no footage of the mid-air crash itself. All cameras were trained on the chase. There is footage from inside one chopper for a couple of seconds, but it doesn't show the collision.
I have seen one picture of one of the choppers folded up in mid air, and the other relatively complete trailing smoke and nose down in a terminal dive.
That sounds like exactly what I saw. I saw one clip during the 4pm report on CBS11 that showed the last split second of flight and the groundstrikes. I did read a local Phoenix news story that said the live feed from Channel 10 caught the collision and that is probably where the clip and stills came from.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
To threadjump a bit, should the person being chased by the police be charged with murdering them?
Wow, talk about about a stretch! Why don't you change your handle to Mr.Fantastic since you can stretch so much from so little? :furious
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There is no actual footage of the collision. Fox 10 was trained on the "chase" as well as the others. Newschannel 3 (Independent station) and ABC 15 collided. There is a picture from a still camera on the ground showing the ABC 15 Chopper in a non-recoverable dive with damaged main rotor. The white clump seen next to it is the NewsChannel 3 Chopper with no tail. Here is some places to get info...
News Channel 3 (http://www.azfamily.com)
12 News (NBC) (http://www.azcentral.com)
ABC 15 News (http://www.ABC15.com)
Fox 10 (http://www.myfoxphoenix.com)
Truly a sad day in Phoenix.
:(
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Wow, talk about about a stretch! Why don't you change your handle to Mr.Fantastic since you can stretch so much from so little? :furious
He was right, on the way home the news was saying they are considering charging him with their deaths.
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Rip, it's actually not that far of a jump. I forget the exact name of the law, but if someone dies as the result of a crime you commited or participated in you are criminally responsable.
Example: Two people rob a store. One is caught, the other escapes and starts a chase. During the chase a police officer crashes and dies. The person already in custody and handcuffed in the back seat of a patrol car 30 minutes before the chase began is liable for the death of the officer.
It all goes back to the initial cause of the incident.
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It's called felony murder.
The person that is responsible for the original felony crime that resulted in the death of another because of it will / can be charged with felony murder.
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I forgot to add, in a press conference the Phoenix Police Chief told reporters that they will be seeking charges on the suspect of the low speed chase. I'm not sure what the charges will be but I'll keep an eye on news and post what I hear.
He was in a stolen vehicle and rammed several police cars in the early minutes of the chase. The Phoenix Police department, and most of the Valley Law Enforcement agencies, have a no pursuit policy. They will initiate a traffic stop but will not pursue if you don't stop. They allow the police helicopter to follow the vehicle and they parallel while waiting for the vehicle to stop and the occupants run away.
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It may not have been a totally low speed chase. I might have spoken too quickly on that, but it was after watching an early report that only showed a white truck driving slowly thru a parking lot.
Whether it was 30mph or 130mph is neather here nor there. The helos were in the air to make money from sensationalistic (did I invent a word?) news coverage. They were the live version of a supermarket tabloid. The only thing that would top a live pursuit is a celebrity live pursuit.
While the perp is criminally resposable for the deaths, should the TV stations that sent reporters on the story be responsable civilly?
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Originally posted by Chalenge
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3645.html
Mind you they are already discussing charging him with negligent homicide for the deaths of the helicopter crews.
I supported the charging of a criminal (escaped felon) with murder for the death of a responding officer.
I can't support charging this dude with murder because news people crashed and died... Sorry. It's optional to them to cover such news. It's the job of the police to respond..... big difference in my mind.
Where is the line, if you disagree? If the copters were showing speeders on a certain stretch of highway, and they collided, would you charge the speeders with murdering them? I think not.
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I think the news stations should be sued for billions for endangering the public.
I don't watch the news except for very rare occasions. I think they are scum.
I am glad they didn't kill anyone but themselves.
Was the guy in the "chase" in the act of committing a felony? what was going on?
lazs
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So this criminal is going to be charged with the deaths of bad piloting?
Look, I know we want to assign blame here...5 people are dead. Was it rescuing children or saving the world?
No. They augered into each other chasing a low speed police chase.
This was all about ratings. And sadly, their deaths will show that, based on video replays, website stories, etc. Its a sad, vicious cycle.
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
There is no actual footage of the collision. Fox 10 was trained on the "chase" as well as the others. Newschannel 3 (Independent station) and ABC 15 collided. There is a picture from a still camera on the ground showing the ABC 15 Chopper in a non-recoverable dive with damaged main rotor. The white clump seen next to it is the NewsChannel 3 Chopper with no tail. Here is some places to get info...
News Channel 3 (http://www.azfamily.com)
12 News (NBC) (http://www.azcentral.com)
ABC 15 News (http://www.ABC15.com)
Fox 10 (http://www.myfoxphoenix.com)
Truly a sad day in Phoenix.
:(
A friend emailed me this
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=882_1185574862
From another pilot that was there as they hit
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Originally posted by Chalenge
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3645.html
Mind you they are already discussing charging him with negligent homicide for the deaths of the helicopter crews.
I just watched this...several times to make sure I wasnt just imagining it.
There is something else the chopper pilot is uttering right at the very very end.
VERY sickening.
RIP to all involved
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What is it?
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I just watched this...several times to make sure I wasnt just imagining it.
There is something else the chopper pilot is uttering right at the very very end.
VERY sickening.
RIP to all involved
Yeah that one is disturbing, you can hear him scream...
It doesn't seem safe to have the pilot talking to an anchor, while watching the guy in the vehicle and flying all at the same time espically with all the other helicopters around in the same arena reporting on the same event..
People get in enough accidents in their cars talking on a cell phones..
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Depending on Federal, State, and local laws, yes the suspect can be charged with the deaths of the helicopter news crews.
America has had 231 years of voted in representatives that add layer and layer of law upon law upon law to the judicial system. Something happens, another law gets added to the system in usually a knee jerk reaction. Enforcing existing laws takes a back seat ("Hate crimes" being a classic example of this trend).
The end result is that prosecutors and DA's tend to lay as many charges onto a suspect as possible, and they get to cast a very wide net these days. Then the process usually turns to plea bargaining of those charges down to something with the defendant and his (usually appointed public defender) legal counsel.
Why you will see things like a suspect charged with "over two dozen counts of blah blah blah" when being arraigned.
It's the system we live in that has developed over time. "There outta be a law!"
As to whether or not it's justified here is another argument, but then, the actions of those half dozen news choppers (in addition to the police air presence that was probably there) operating independently in close proximity to a chase.... that's been a disaster waiting to happen for 20 years now since these "Televised Live chases" have been "popular" in the media and public.
They operate so far out of standard aviation safety practices at times to be very scary, and they do put many others at risk. Hate to see it happen at all, but I can't say as I'm surprised at all that it did.
Had those choppers come down on a few houses or civilians on the ground, undoubtedly the suspect would have been charged with their injuries and deaths as well.... but all the wrongful death and injury suits would have been against the television stations.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I just watched this...several times to make sure I wasnt just imagining it.
There is something else the chopper pilot is uttering right at the very very end.
What was he saying?
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Originally posted by soda72
Yeah that one is disturbing, you can hear him scream...
It doesn't seem safe to have the pilot talking to an anchor, while watching the guy in the vehicle and flying all at the same time espically with all the other helicopters around in the same arena reporting on the same event..
People get in enough accidents in their cars talking on a cell phones..
soda72, the pilot is not the one talking to the television station folks. The guy on the camera is. The pilot is talking to local air traffic control, and probably the other local choppers, but as a chase is so unpredictable, coordinating airspace between a half dozen news choppers, and 1 or 2 police choppers, is as impossible a task as you are likely to find.
If you've ever seen those news choppers trying to jockey for position for a good camera shot.... it's a competitive market for the "if it bleeds, it leads" media. I feel especially sorry for the Police chopper crews that have to worry about what is going on on the ground in addition to the idiots buzzing over them in news choppers.
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Originally posted by eagl
What was he saying?
Frankly, Eagle do you really think it matters? It's after the impact.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
soda72, the pilot is not the one talking to the television station folks. The guy on the camera is. The pilot is talking to local air traffic control, and probably the other local choppers,
Are you sure he wasn't talking to the anchor?
The video doesn't indentify who the anchor is talking to, but the article from ABC15 web site says it was Smith.. And it matches up with what was said in the video.. Maybe they have the names mixed up with Rick Krolak..
ABC15 Pilot Craig Smith saw the driver get out of the first truck.
"This may be the end of this thing," he said on-air. "OK, now it's a foot chase."Police were trying to stop the motorist from leaving in the second vehicle when Smith's helicopter and Channel 3's collided. "Oh geez!" was all viewers could hear Smith say as his broadcast broke up in a jumble of spinning, broken images.
http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=3440f3ba-b741-47ee-948b-d82997dcdeda (http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=3440f3ba-b741-47ee-948b-d82997dcdeda)
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3645.html (http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3645.html)
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Originally posted by soda72
Are you sure he wasn't talking to the anchor?
The video doesn't indentify who the anchor is talking to, but the article from ABC15 web site says it was Smith.. And it matches up with what was said in the video.. Maybe they have the names mixed up with Rick Krolak..
http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=3440f3ba-b741-47ee-948b-d82997dcdeda (http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=3440f3ba-b741-47ee-948b-d82997dcdeda)
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3645.html (http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3645.html)
If the pilot at the controls was giving the commentary, that would be very much out of the norm for how those news camera helicopter crews tend to operate, and will probably be listed as a major cause of the crash by the NTSB. Pilot should be listening to his radios, not the news director and anchors.
Or, it could simply be bad information in the article due to rush to get statements out... something that would be covered in those small "corrections" boxes on page 2 no one ever reads.
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Originally posted by soda72
Yeah that one is disturbing, you can hear him scream...
It doesn't seem safe to have the pilot talking to an anchor, while watching the guy in the vehicle and flying all at the same time espically with all the other helicopters around in the same arena reporting on the same event..
People get in enough accidents in their cars talking on a cell phones..
I never noticed it until now.
Very disturbing and sad :(
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Him being responsible for their deaths is foolish. If they were COPters then yes.
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Condolences to family & friends of the lost souls.
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I used to work for a Repair Station that maintained two of the News
Helicopters for the Valley (Phoenix), not the two involved in the crash.
My own experiance in talking with these pilots on daily basis was quite different from the picture that some are painting.
We had two "Rival" TV stations helicopters based at our station but the pilots and photographers shared the same office, listened to the same scanners, drank coffee from the same pot. Etc
They were very professional, cooperately closely with each other and any law enforcement helicopters in the air. With the new gyro-stabilized long range cameras in the choppers they could maintain a safe distance from the scene and each other and still cover the story.
What happend in Phoenix was tragedy, a brief but fatal lapse of situational awareness. If friendly collsions were turned on in Aces High most of us would be dead a hundred times over.
For many of you, this was just a news story. For me, it was half hour of wondering if the crash had taken the lives of people that I had worked with for several years.
:(
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Well said, Guns. I hope none of the victims were friends of yours.
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the actual accident itself if tragic.
The reason they were in it is not. It is disgusting. TV news is disgusting. they are vultures and liars and scumbags at those stations.
What they pass off as news holds no interest for me.
lazs
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I've logged over 450 hours in helicopters working as a vidiographer/photographer.
*I've also logged around 300 hours as a front seat observer. There's a reason why these two jobs are seperated while working in a high traffic area.
Unfortunatley, the bottom line trumps safety all too often.
*These were the safety procedures taken and enforced during the Valdez spill by Exxon and their contractors. Their safety record during the 5 years of heavy air traffic in the sound reflects the benifits of their saftey efforts.