Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Captain Virgil Hilts on July 27, 2007, 05:44:06 PM
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Fox News reports two P-51's collided while landing, and at least one pilot confirmed dead.
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That sucks.
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http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=6851412
Pilot Killed in Runway Collision at EAA AirVenture
July 27, 2007 05:22 PM CDT
One pilot is dead after two planes collided on a runway at EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh, the EAA confirmed.
The EAA said two World War Two-era P-51 Mustangs were landing after performing in the Warbirds air show when they crashed on the north-south runaway around 3:15 P.M. Friday.
The condition of the other pilot is unknown, but we do know he was able to get out of the plane.
Nothing about the pilots is being made public yet, including their names or hometowns.
The Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board are on the scene.
The EAA AirVenture air show was postponed but not canceled, EAA media headquarters said.
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Damn. :(
RIP to the deceased, I hope the other pilot recovers soon and fully.
Thoughts and prayers for the families.
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I just received a phone call about this, apparently the pilots were Hans Schmid flying the B model and Bob Odegard's son flying the D model.
Apparently the D model landed first, and the B came in after and was a bit too fast, and chopped off the horizontal and some of the tail. Before he hit though, the B model apparently tried to throttle up to avoid the crash, and inadvertantly tourque rolled. Mr. Schmid was sadly killed in the accident and Bob's son banged his head up on the panel apparently.
My condolences to the Schmid family. :(
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:(
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A picture of the crash is on the main page at Fox News right now. It's heart breaking.
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He died doing what he loved.
What a loss.
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Oh no no no this is terrible. Prayer to the families.
On another note, I HATE FOX NEWS. 'Death on the runway'? C'mon.
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Wow, looks like an awful accident, definitely not what you want to see at an airshow. My sincere condolences to the Schmid family.
On another note, I didn't actually know that any P-51Bs were flying in the USA.
- SEAGOON
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The pilot who died was Gerry Beck , he was in his new build P51-A :(
Gerry Beck
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And yesterday 4 people died in 2 news helicopters that crashed when they were following a carchase in Arizona. One guy died in a housefire somewere in norway too, and a couple in a carcrash.
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I know Gerry Beck. He was incredibly creative. A genius in his own right in my opinion. Very unfortunate and a great loss to the aviation community.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
And yesterday 4 people died in 2 news helicopters that crashed when they were following a carchase in Arizona. One guy died in a housefire somewere in norway too, and a couple in a carcrash.
Saw that.
Im still trying to figure out why so many news choppers were following a car chase? I guess what's "news" in other parts of the country is pretty unique. Sad to see that so many died covering something so insignificant.
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aero-news.net has the video of the crash, and a statement by the guy who runs the site.
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(http://www.cirruspilots.org/uploaded_images/28-278190-p51crash.jpg)
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
aero-news.net has the video of the crash, and a statement by the guy who runs the site.
I can't find the article there, I've never navigated that site, and it is quite clumsy...
PM or post the article please?
I went there Saturday for the whole day, and LIVE in WI....
during the extended warbirds show I had to pee and a 9 year old kid told me about this and I didn't believe him as I hadn't heard a THING locally in Milwaukee. Today on the way home from the UP of Michigan we stopped at some family members and they asked about it :O
to the fallen pilot, and I am truly saddened to hear about this. :confused: :( :(
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Go to the website. It is the second article on yesterday's news links. The link to the video is in the article.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
...One guy died in a housefire somewere in norway too, and a couple in a carcrash.
and that has to do with this story how?
my only guess is you are trying to say "deaths happen all the time" or something, but a tragedy like this crash is a little bit more on the minds of the AH community. the only reason we do not document and account for every death that happens every day is because "we" are in tune with the aviation community in a whole and react to the loss a bit more.
if this is a troll well then :p
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I was supposed to carpool there last thursday with a buddy. The D model involved looks like the Dazzling Donna. She was in MN in 2001, I have several nice pics of her.
Reminds me of the Redwing, MN Airshow in 2003 when we lost Don Hinz and his P51B "By Request." I was at that show, I'm glad I didn't get to this one.
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Here is some news on it at as well...
Footage of P51 Landing (http://www.aero-tv.net/index.cfm?videoid=00b0d640-e714-4b79-b17b-6f3b0f149c4d)
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Sketch,
Good clip there, thanks for providing it.
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a little off topic, i landed at Wittman field my 46' Aeronca along with 8 other non-radio equipped aircraft - we had staged at another airport waiting for somebody with a radio - this was at the direction of Wittman tower.. . when that person came along we all flew to Wittman together in loose formation - just following the guy who had the radio. i remember getting tossed around by prop wash from a plane in front of me at one point ... it was like a dream. we landed en masse, some on cement, some on grass. i didn't know these guys or what there skills were, and all the planes were different. I remember thinking to myself "this is crazy" that was around 1974 i think. as much high density air traffic as that place gets I'm really surprised there aren't more general aviation accidents there - nevermind show accidents.
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I was there and witnessed it happen.:( I was pretty shocked by what I saw and kind of had a bad feeling in my gut when I saw how close they were comming in. Beck had built that P-51A from the ground up from North American plans and It's sad to see the loss of another Mustang not to mention the loss of the pilot. I'm interested in hearing the official FAA report. BTW Scottydawg, That is exactly what it was "death on the runway" Nice to see you throw in that political jab when this is about the loss of a human life as well a piece of history:rolleyes:
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flying thats close is really risky, just one stronger wind turbulence from
the side or even from the plane ahead and you can be next moment in big trouble. And even more while landing, landing togheter looks cool, but saftey should
be more important, especialy in Aero sport.
Looks like the green couldnt decrease his speed enough (backwind?).
The other topic with the Heli crash, they flew way to close too until they crashed.
When i fly my glider, i also like to fly close with friends sometimes, but only when there are no or minimal wind, and when flying thermals its a no no.
Same goes for landing, i try to avoid landing when alot other people
prepairing for landing, i just wait until the air is clear and i can start
my landing procedure.
my condolences to the family of the P-51 Pilot,
looks like he lived his dream, unfortunately the fate can hit
you in a brutal way.
Gh0stFT
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:confused: such a tragedy.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ad_1186036487
footage of the crash. :(
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Such idiocy.
At least the real P-51 survived with repairable damage.
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Originally posted by Viking
Such idiocy.
At least the real P-51 survived with repairable damage.
That's real classy there shultz.
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Rule number one when flying in formation: Never lose sight of your lead plane. The P-51A pilot should have peeled away to the left immediately when he lost sight of the lead plane. But I guess a cool looking landing was more important to him than the safety of his wingman, to say nothing of the audience.
Idiocy.
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I've known Gerry Beck for almost 20 years. He was a consumate craftsman and a fine pilot. It was an unfortunate accident. Welcome to my ignore list dickmunch.
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I'm sure he was a great person, but he still did an idiotic mistake and caused a completely avoidable accident that could have killed a lot more people than just himself. If I had screwed up that bad and somehow survived I would have shot myself.
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How many hours do you have again Schultz?
That's what I thought.
It's always easy to second guess the guy in the seat, especially after he's dead and can't defend himself.
It looks like he made a mistake. But absolutely no one knows what the guy holding the stick was seeing, hearing, feeling, doing...
oh wait... this is all wasted on you.
Sorry.
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Originally posted by Toad
How many hours do you have again Schultz?
57. Yeah I know it not a lot.
Originally posted by Toad
It looks like he made a mistake. But absolutely no one knows what the guy holding the stick was seeing, hearing, feeling, doing...
Actually from the video posted in the other thread it is quite easy to see that the lead Mustang dropped under the 51A's nose and would not be visible unless Mr. Beck somehow could see through the nose or wing of his plane.
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Originally posted by Viking
57. Yeah I know it not a lot.
Then keep your damn mouth shut when it comes to things you wouldn't have the first clue about. Casca said it best. He had an outstanding reputation as an upstanding member of the aviation world whereas you'll amount to little more than a cancer cell.
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Originally posted by Viking
Actually from the video posted in the other thread it is quite easy to see that the lead Mustang dropped under the 51A's nose
Did it make it quite easy to see WHY the lead Mustang dropped under the 51A's nose?
Did it make it quite easy to see what the situation was within Mr. Beck's plane?
Did it make it quite easy to see exactly what Mr. Beck saw?
Did it make it quite easy to see exactly how much time Mr. Beck had to react?
Did it make it quite easy to see the current situation of Mr. Beck's plane and if it was even possible to take successful corrective action given the aircraft's capabilities?
Or are you just assuming you know exactly what happened here?
Stuff happens. Pilots make mistakes. Sometimes once a chain of events begins, the end result is unavoidable.
Damn shame to lose a fine pilot and a great airplane. That's really all there is to say here and all that needs to be said here.
That's all I have to say in this thread.
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Golfer and Toad summed it up nicely. It's easy to second guess outcomes sitting in Norway blogging in one's mother's basement. I can't see his posts anymore (say, that works neat :) ) but it seems from Golfer's quote that he has, what, 57 whopping hours. Not the go to guy on questions involving real pilots flying real airplanes.
Hell, I have that much time in the shade of wires and Scruffy (Gerry Beck) had a lot more than that. He started a a sprayer. Spraying involves several hundred important decisions a day and one gets instant feedback on whether it was the correct one or not. At OshKosh he made a final decision with an unfortunate outcome. To call him an "idiot" is ignorant slander at best. Anyone that would do that is an... um what is the term I am groping for?
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Casca,
I believe the politest term that typifies what you want is the same one that fits mcfarland, a blivet.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Then keep your damn mouth shut...
Nope. Won't do that sir. :)
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Originally posted by Toad
Did it make it quite easy to see exactly what Mr. Beck saw?
No, but it is pretty clear what he didn't see. For at least two seconds the lead Mustang was out of Mr. Beck's, even his most optimistic, field of view. In those seconds the lead plane slowed down and dropped down onto the runway. Mr. Beck dove to regain visual contact and to follow him and that was his mistake; his plane picked up too much speed and when the lead Mustang was back in his field of view there was too little time to prevent the disaster. At least that's my take on it.
Originally posted by Toad
Stuff happens. Pilots make mistakes.
That's the kind of attitude that gets people killed. Yes pilots makes mistakes, but it is never acceptable when the consequences are that bad.
Originally posted by Casca
To call him an "idiot" is ignorant slander at best.
I've never called Mr. Beck an idiot. His choice of actions were idiotic. Different thing altogether.
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very classy there viking. i'm sure that if you bit the dirt in an accident due to pilot error your family and friends would love people slandering you like you have mr. beck. i guess its easy to sling mud at a guy who you never and will never meet.
its a dangerous business, accidents do happen, and obviously you haven't learned that from your few hours in a real airplane.
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If I did that I'd deserve it. Perhaps it is a cultural difference thing; over here we call people for what they are and do. Dead or alive. A couple of years ago two young men died in a high-speed traffic accident here. The local newspaper headline was something to the effect of: "Two killed while driving like idiots".
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That man forgot more about flying airplanes than you will ever hope to know in ten lifetimes. Your 57 hours of experience give you zero right, no perspective and even less insight to the type of flying they do and operation of their airplanes. Like Casca said both he and Mr. Beck have more time in the shadows of power lines than you do total time. If you think you have anything to say to either of them it better end with "sir" and start with "May I wash your airplane?"
The answer will be no just to offer you the slightest perspective on where you stand. You just built yourself a pretty high fence around yourself too. Good luck getting out of your ignorance box, sport.
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You know... Gscholz I have been a "bud" for quite some time, and always have been respectful...
but I do have to say I think you are dead wrong on this matter.
As a friend I'd say let it lie bro <>
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To date I've seen two airshow crashes, both were planes flown by excellent pilots.
An airshow routine generally never consists of a couple of routine turns, it is a long string of difficult and dangerous maneuvers which all have to be practiced executed close to the ground with a very small margin for error. Add extra planes to the routine, and the danger increases exponentially. From the early barnstorming days, the emphasis has always been on flying that pushes the envelope and has the pilot constantly on the brink of a fiery death, that is what we expect to see when we go to an airshow. Providence smiles on some pilots and they end up dying of natural causes, but with others one day something goes wrong with one of those almost innumerable variables, and they end up flying into something harder than air. Although we don't realize it, essentially the same thing can happen to us on the way to the store one day. One day one of those things we've executed flawlessly 10,000 times before suddenly goes very wrong and we end up crashing our car. Sometimes it isn't even our set of variables that goes catastrophically awry, its another drivers problem that ends up being the end of us.
He was a fine pilot and he didn't die because he was an idiot, he died because he couldn't control providence, he was a good pilot who did his best but like all men he wasn't God and consequently he wasn't in charge of the way all of those little variables fell in line that day. His day came, just as one way or another, whether we are good or bad at what we do, that day will come for all of us no matter how desperately we try to stave it off. The only question therefore is the ultimate question, are you prepared for that day? Are you ready to die?
I don't take too many risks myself, but regardless, I know there is a day appointed for me to come before my maker, and that probably sooner than I think and probably not when I expect it. I'm not afraid of that day though, as I preached recently at the funeral of the wife of an excellent C-130 flight engineer, "I know that this mortal body that I walk around in today, will someday wear out, and that unless Christ returns first someday I will die. Today I am preaching at Margie’s funeral, someday someone, and hopefully a better preacher than me, will be preaching at my funeral. But friends I am not afraid of that day because Jesus has taken the sting out of death for me. Because He has paid for my sins, all that death can do is convey me into his presence, the curse of it is gone forever. So I do not fear it."
Viking, we need to be humble enough to realize that we are not immortal and that none of "execute life flawlessly" and that someday, all of us are going to die no matter what we do. To think that our paying extra close attention to detail twenty four by seven will nullify that fact is sheer hubris. I'm just glad that this man lived a life whose passing is lamented, far too many don't, and I salute him for that. I hope he was ready for that day, but at this point only he and God know that. The mature reaction to events like this is not a shallow condemnation, but a sobering reflection that "where he has gone, I will someday follow."
"Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil." (James 4:16-17)
- SEAGOON
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The flying situation at Air Venture is pretty darn complex. The fact that they can blend so many different types of aircraft with so many different pilots and not with a lot of time is just amazing to me. When I first read the procedures for flying into the air port for the show it scared me silly to see what kind of plans they laid down to do this and not with 2 way communication at all times or even similar performance aircraft much less professional vs low time amature pilots. That they do this year after year with out recurring disasters is worthy of a large degree of respect IMO.