Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Atoon on July 29, 2007, 12:29:14 AM
-
Just saw a CBS clip on known gangs within US military. Jawan Johnson, had served in Iraq & was stationed in Germany and "in the process of discharging" (quote from deceased's mother). He was due to return home to his wife & newborn son. The report says he was killed by enlisted men during a gang initiation "jump-in", which means you get jumped by multiple current gang members. The report then went on to show gang graffiti on military vehicles, bases, property, & on various walls in Iraq cities. It had many photos of US military, flashing known gang-signs at various night clubs frequented by US military.
The report said it was part 1 of a CBS exclusive, I dont post links but it shouldnt be hard to find for anyone who cares to post a link-
:huh
sickening.
I struggle to think of an acceptable solution to this problem. I would love to continue to think that joining the military would be a great way to leave gang life behind, especially for those who get caught up in it at an early age. But Jawon was ending a succesful military career, that could easily have been converted into a succesful civilian career, and he had a newborn son.
Disturbing:O
-
Military personnel are a cross-section of everyday America. While it is by far the exception and not the norm, it happens. Especially with the pressure recruiters are under nowadays to fill boots. 99% of soldiers are honest, hard working, dedicated people. There's always gonna be a few cockroaches that slip under the crack in the door.
-
No, 99% of troops aren't normal and well-behaved.
Various studies I have read have listed 6-10% of troops as murderers, anti-socials, and psychopaths. These are usually the same ones that commit atrocities.
-
I went back and reviewed the report, and also my post. I need to include that Jawon died from injuries sustained at his initiation, thus making the story news-worthy. And at the time of his death, his son was not yet born.
-
Originally posted by USRanger
Military personnel are a cross-section of everyday America. While it is by far the exception and not the norm, it happens. Especially with the pressure recruiters are under nowadays to fill boots. 99% of soldiers are honest, hard working, dedicated people. There's always gonna be a few cockroaches that slip under the crack in the door.
Agree.
-
Originally posted by USRanger
Military personnel are a cross-section of everyday America. While it is by far the exception and not the norm, it happens. Especially with the pressure recruiters are under nowadays to fill boots. 99% of soldiers are honest, hard working, dedicated people. There's always gonna be a few cockroaches that slip under the crack in the door.
So your saying that NCO's and CO's have no control over the people they're supposed have control over right down to the very last man?
Although I'm not in the military, there isn't a person who will get away with this kind of crap on my watch and I have to work with in a Union collective agreement.
The 99% expect the people in charge to close up these cracks so the unit can function without reprisals (peer pressure) from those who seek to disrupt order. They're looking for leadership.
If the present command system can't accomplish this then they should regroup.
-
Originally posted by Jaxxon
So your saying that NCO's and CO's have no control over the people they're supposed have control over right down to the very last man?
Although I'm not in the military, there isn't a person who will get away with this kind of crap on my watch and I have to work with in a Union collective agreement.
The 99% expect the people in charge to close up these cracks so the unit can function without reprisals (peer pressure) from those who seek to disrupt order. They're looking for leadership.
If the present command system can't accomplish this then they should regroup.
"Just saw a CBS clip on known gangs within US military..."
Stick to Sponge Bob.
Pissant
Mac
-
Nothing new here.
For years, gangs have actually been sending members (who had not received convictions) off to the Army and Marines to learn the trade to use back on the streets when they returned to "the hood".
Back in the late 80's or early 90's, there was trouble on Fort Carson between soldiers with ties to the Crips and those to the Bloods. Actually had soldiers transfered between Platoons and Companies to keep them separated for each other.
And hazing among military members predates even the gang influence.
And there is a war on, and effort to increase military end strength in the Army. Its a numbers game: they are not going to get rid of people that they would have during peacetime and the drawdown.
And junior NCO's don't receive much in the way of schooling/training before promotion any more... used to be to make Corporal or Sergeant, you needed at least the Primary Leadership Development Course... now it's called Warrior Leadership Course and you don't need it until up for Staff Sergeant. Many of the junior leaders are just not up to the task, and there are shortages of officers in Platoon Leader positions across much of the Army.
And you have many war vets on active duty, a percentage of which have problems readjusting one out of the combat zone. There are many different reasons why about 5,000 vets (active and retired) commit suicide every year ( more than has been lost in six years of fighting).
-
Had this crap before.. Korea, Germany, States.
Stupid young men thinking they were soo frikken kewl.
I broke these ******s down. Made them a team.
Soo you Crips and Bloods with yer attitudes come into my yard and think your're gonna push colors.
Word to your Mother.
I don't play yer chit.
Mac
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
No, 99% of troops aren't normal and well-behaved.
Various studies I have read have listed 6-10% of troops as murderers, anti-socials, and psychopaths. These are usually the same ones that commit atrocities.
Prove it.
-
Easy solutions are available, but will never be allowed.
Here is an easy one: Make gang membership a capital offense, and carry out the punishment.
But no, we would rather worry about being policitally correct than maintaining a safe law abiding society.
Here is an idea for the Army, if you catch anyone participating in any way in a gang, send them to Iraq, put them out front on combat patrols without any armor, and use them as bait. Works for me. Two birds with one stone kind of thing.
-
Originally posted by Dago
Easy solutions are available, but will never be allowed.
Here is an idea for the Army, if you catch anyone participating in any way in a gang, send them to Iraq, put them out front on combat patrols without any armor, and use them as bait. Works for me. Two birds with one stone kind of thing.
If an Illegal Immigrant wants in to the USA, give em a uniform and send them to Iraq.
-
Originally posted by Dago
Easy solutions are available, but will never be allowed.
Here is an easy one: Make gang membership a capital offense, and carry out the punishment.
Define "gang" please.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Prove it.
He can't prove it but that does not bother him.
-
Originally posted by USRanger
Military personnel are a cross-section of everyday America. While it is by far the exception and not the norm, it happens. Especially with the pressure recruiters are under nowadays to fill boots. 99% of soldiers are honest, hard working, dedicated people. There's always gonna be a few cockroaches that slip under the crack in the door.
and THATS the 1% that CBS is looking for:aok
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Define "gang" please.
Is this board really inhabited with those who don't understand simple terms and typical descriptions?
I would suggest if you find yourself in need of a definition of anything in the fugure, you go to Websters dictionary.
-
Originally posted by USRanger
Military personnel are a cross-section of everyday America. While it is by far the exception and not the norm, it happens. Especially with the pressure recruiters are under nowadays to fill boots. 99% of soldiers are honest, hard working, dedicated people. There's always gonna be a few cockroaches that slip under the crack in the door.
that's exactly right and has been going on at least since I was in back in 1975-1979.
-
The percentage of gang members in the military, and troops who are so anti-social that they might as well be gang members, is much higher than anyone wants to believe. It's a problem in the USAF, so I can't imagine it being any better in the Army.
The last time I was at Sheppard AFB, there had been a recent incident where student airmen doing drugs on base in the middle of the base park near the dorms assaulted and nearly killed a security forces troop trying to "do something" about someone smoking pot out in the open. At Osan, there are multiple rapes weekly. In one case, an NCO who was supposed to be sponsoring a new troop into the base drugged and raped the new guy's wife the day she showed up.
This stuff is rampant in the military. 99% upstanding citizens... Not in the military I know. It's our job to stamp it out as ruthlessly as possible, but #1 I don't think we're doing a good enough job and #2 recruiting is a tough problem right now so these scumbags will keep getting in.
Some supervisors are good at turning these kids around or kicking them out, but there are some problem areas that are out of control. Enlisted dorms are one... No officer I know of will make an unannounced visit to the enlisted dorms because of the behavior that goes on in most of them. Overhearing a group of young airmen at Osan talking about "that time last weekend when all 5 of us were banging that chick from finance in the dorms" was enough for me. I don't have time to save the world and I'm not going to try.
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
No, 99% of troops aren't normal and well-behaved.
Various studies I have read have listed 6-10% of troops as murderers, anti-socials, and psychopaths. These are usually the same ones that commit atrocities.
26.8% of your posts are false or misleading.
Aren't pulling random numbers with no source fun?
-
Mac, the comment wasn't directed at you or your military.
Obviously you are or were in command and dealt with those under it.
A while back the CAF disbanded a Regiment because of such activities (hazing). That's a good example of what anarchy with in can do to a military when it's not controled by the front line. Whether they condoned it or just couldn't control it is another issue.
Pisant ... hardly.
-
Yeah Aquashrimp is SUCH an expert.
By the way there Shrimp.....how long have you served or been associated with the military that makes you able to make such a claim???
I've been in the military or lived on military bases my ENTIRE life. 35 years of experiance with the Air Force, Army, Navy, and Coast Guard, and I would have to say with 100% certainty that you claim is 100% FALSE.
Instead of reading about it, why don't you try living it first then come and talk about the military, otherwise why don't you do the rest of us that have and do serve a favor and keep your worthless opinions to yourself.
-
I think Jackal has a valid point, Dago. A gang could be thought of by some as a group that gets together to solve crime (Scooby Doo) or it could be a group of people with common interests that socialize (motorcycle gang) OR it could be a group of people who promote violence to protect themselves (crips, bloods, etc). It really just depends on your personal definition, not what a book says.
From Websters
gang1 /gæŋ/ Pronunciation Key
–noun
1. a group or band: A gang of boys gathered around the winning pitcher.
2. a group of youngsters or adolescents who associate closely, often exclusively, for social reasons, esp. such a group engaging in delinquent behavior.
3. a group of people with compatible tastes or mutual interests who gather together for social reasons: I'm throwing a party for the gang I bowl with.
4. a group of persons working together; squad; shift: a gang of laborers.
5. a group of persons associated for some criminal or other antisocial purpose: a gang of thieves.
6. a set of tools, electronic components or circuits, oars, etc., arranged to work together or simultaneously.
7. a group of identical or related items.
-
Originally posted by Dago
Easy solutions are available, but will never be allowed.
Here is an easy one: Make gang membership a capital offense, and carry out the punishment.
But no, we would rather worry about being politically correct than maintaining a safe law abiding society.
Here is an idea for the Army, if you catch anyone participating in any way in a gang, send them to Iraq, put them out front on combat patrols without any armor, and use them as bait. Works for me. Two birds with one stone kind of thing......
quote: Originally posted by Jackal1
Define "gang" please.
Is this board really inhabited with those who don't understand simple terms and typical descriptions?
I would suggest if you find yourself in need of a definition of anything in the future, you go to Websters dictionary.
I think what he was asking from you would be YOUR legal definition of a "gang" member that would sentence him to getting shot in the neck over.
Is it those dealing drugs? Stealing and chopping cars? A couple kid's tagging graffiti on the walls in their neighborhood? A bunch of lawyers and bankers playing dress up on their Harley's on the weekends?
Which other guilty-by-associations carry the death penalty ("capital offense") in your world? KKK? NRA? NAACP? Boy Scouts? Political Parties? Door to door sales people at a convention? Any non-sanctioned assembly of more than 10 people? The 5 geeks down in the AV club?
It's not just a slippery slope for society you advocate, but jumping straight off a cliff.
And as someone who did a tour in Iraq, I certainly would not want to be depending on some guy out on point there on a death sentence as you would propose. The members of a military unit in a combat zone need to be able to depend on one another, so there is no way I'd accept your solutions.
-
I have no idea what the extent of the 'gang' problem is within the US forces. But I do know that gang units in police forces across the country do track the military experience of gang members.
-
Originally posted by nirvana
I think Jackal has a valid point, Dago.
Jackal made no point.
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
Yeah Aquashrimp is SUCH an expert.
By the way there Shrimp.....how long have you served or been associated with the military that makes you able to make such a claim???
I've been in the military or lived on military bases my ENTIRE life. 35 years of experiance with the Air Force, Army, Navy, and Coast Guard, and I would have to say with 100% certainty that you claim is 100% FALSE.
Instead of reading about it, why don't you try living it first then come and talk about the military, otherwise why don't you do the rest of us that have and do serve a favor and keep your worthless opinions to yourself.
You old fool, even the U.S. military recognizes that about FOUR PERCENT of its troops are SOCIOPATHS. Add to that various other anti-social personality disorders, and you can easily get 10%.
Check out this study
https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/0/bd7eed04567bfe2b85256e3b002f29c1?OpenDocument
And saying that I need to serve in the military and 'live the life' to be able to speak on the matter, thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Obviously you didn't utilize your G.I. Bill.
-
A post-World War II study by R. L. Swank and W. E. Marchand proposed that 2 percent of soldiers were "aggressive psychopaths" who did not suffer from the normal remorse or trauma associated with killing.8 I use the word suffer because when the job of the soldier is to kill, those fettered by their conscience are suffering while doing their job. We tend to shun the concept of the willing killer because it offends our kinder sensibilities, but a controlled psychopath is an asset on the killing fields. Those who possess such a temperament are natural killers and many have served this country well. The problem lies in identifying these individuals and positioning them where they can be most effective.
THAT is what you base your conclusions on?
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
You old fool, even the U.S. military recognizes that about FOUR PERCENT of its troops are SOCIOPATHS. Add to that various other anti-social personality disorders, and you can easily get 10%.
Check out this study
https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/0/bd7eed04567bfe2b85256e3b002f29c1?OpenDocument
And saying that I need to serve in the military and 'live the life' to be able to speak on the matter, thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Obviously you didn't utilize your G.I. Bill.
If you comprehended the article you quoted you would realize it does not support your position.
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
You old fool, even the U.S. military recognizes that about FOUR PERCENT of its troops are SOCIOPATHS. Add to that various other anti-social personality disorders, and you can easily get 10%.
Check out this study
https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/0/bd7eed04567bfe2b85256e3b002f29c1?OpenDocument
And saying that I need to serve in the military and 'live the life' to be able to speak on the matter, thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Obviously you didn't utilize your G.I. Bill.
Perhaps I missed it, but there's really nothing in that 'Study' to indicate or support what you said.
-
I am teh sociopath!!!!!1
(http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/8386/soldat3hi6.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
-
Originally posted by Atoon
Just saw a CBS clip on known gangs within US military. Jawan Johnson, had served in Iraq & was stationed in Germany and "in the process of discharging" (quote from deceased's mother). He was due to return home to his wife & newborn son. The report says he was killed by enlisted men during a gang initiation "jump-in", which means you get jumped by multiple current gang members. The report then went on to show gang graffiti on military vehicles, bases, property, & on various walls in Iraq cities. It had many photos of US military, flashing known gang-signs at various night clubs frequented by US military.
Originally posted by Jackal1
Define "gang" please.
Why are you asking of this? Are you lacking in reading comprehension? If you do NOT know the definition of "gang" being used in this thread, Why even post in it?
-
Originally posted by USRanger
I am teh sociopath!!!!!1
(http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/8386/soldat3hi6.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
I thank you for your service "sociopath". <>
-
Originally posted by Dago
Is this board really inhabited with those who don't understand simple terms and typical descriptions?
I would suggest if you find yourself in need of a definition of anything in the fugure, you go to Websters dictionary.
If you don`t think you can handle giving me "your" definition, that`s what I was expecting. That`s fine. Leave it to the media. They will not steer you wrong.
:rolleyes:
-
The percentage of gang activity in the military is not the issue, even .0001 % should not be acceptable. The problem needs to be handled, and probably is being handled, by the military. I saw the news story and thought to myself that the young soldier probably did not know what he was getting himself into. The gangs are glorified by popular culture and seen as a way to be cool and gain respect. It is a shame that being a war veteran returning home will not get you more respect. Perhaps pop culture is wrong again. I am going to look around and try to find out when flights of troops returning home are arriving at the airport. I am not so busy that I can't take some time to greet a few young soldiers and let them know that I think that they are cool. They don't need to join a gang to get my respect. They already have it. For what that's worth.
-
Originally posted by Dago
Jackal made no point.
You said. And I quote :)............................. .
Make gang membership a capital offense, and carry out the punishment.
You can`t or want define gang....................but you wish "gang members" to be put to death..........or at the very least, jailed.
According to the media version of "gang" I`m on the list and have been for most of my life. Wanna carry out your sentence there judge? :)
-
You still haven't made a point.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
You still haven't made a point.
I am not the one wish "gang" membership to be a capital offense.
If I need anything from you I`ll call. Don`t hang around waiting. :)
-
Yes, there is a problem. No, it's not being handled.
You can't catch everyone and when you do get one, it's not always possible to make it stick. Due process exists here just like out there. There's a difference between knowing Joe X is a ****bag barracks drug pusher and actually being able to prove it in a court martial proceeding.
Eagler has it about right.
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
I am not the one wish "gang" membership to be a capital offense.
If I need anything from you I' ll call. Don`t hang around waiting. :)
I'll take this as you "support Gangs within the United States Military." If you CANNOT understand the "definition of gangs" mentioned BOTH in the article AND the same interpretation by Dago, we cannot help you.
-
I kinda wonder what sort of damage that a story like this, in widespread press, will do to recruitment?Or general morale, for that matter?
I'm kind of amazed it made it into the public eye, really. This problem should have been handled in-house, so to speak.
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
You old fool, even the U.S. military recognizes that about FOUR PERCENT of its troops are SOCIOPATHS. Add to that various other anti-social personality disorders, and you can easily get 10%.
Check out this study
https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/0/bd7eed04567bfe2b85256e3b002f29c1?OpenDocument
And saying that I need to serve in the military and 'live the life' to be able to speak on the matter, thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Obviously you didn't utilize your G.I. Bill.
And that study is supposed to indicate what??? That there are people in the military that have no problem with killing the enemy?? So what. This thread is about gang violence in the military and you stated in your earlier thread that at least 6-10% of troops are murderers. I told you that you were wrong and I stand by it. I also stand by my statement that you need to serve before you can accurately comment about life and people in the military. On this subject your book education doesn't matter a damn bit.
You can read all the reports and studies you want. Until you've been in the field, lived the life of a soilder, endured the hardships, pain, and sacrifice that comes as part of the job, you will NEVER know what life is like in the military.
You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.
By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man, but I can say this. My life experiance in the military has taught me more than I will EVER learn sitting in a classroom reading a book, so I'll say it again. Put on the uniform and live the life before you go commenting on the men and women that serve this country. It's real easy to sit back and toss out links from some bull**** studies that have nothing to do with the topic and pull some random figures out of your butt. It takes a real man to put his money where his mouth is and soilder up. Of course we all know your not a real man so I suppose that whole point is moot.
The simple FACT is that you have NO clue about what your talking about. Why don't you go back and sit in your classroom and keep pretending your so much more superior than everyone else because of your "education" and leave the real world alone.
-
In USAF if you were caught gangbanging you might last 1 minute. If you were lucky you might just be bounced on a general, unless, they wanted to make an example of you. I bet to this day you'd never see a gang tag on an Air Force base. They would step on you like you were a bug.
-
Originally posted by Rich46yo
In USAF if you were caught gangbanging you might last 1 minute. If you were lucky you might just be bounced on a general, unless, they wanted to make an example of you. I bet to this day you'd never see a gang tag on an Air Force base. They would step on you like you were a bug.
Not to make light of a serious discussion, but as a Brit I can't help s******ing like a 12 year old every time I hear someone talking about 'gangbanging'. It has a completely different meaning back home.
-
I know the Coast Guard doesn't deal with that crap at all. We had one guy that came to the ship out of basic. Young black guy from Louisville Kentucky. Well when he came in the Guard he had a couple of gold caps on his teeth and accourding to him he had his gang symbol eched in the gold. Well at boot they went in and removed the gold caps and put regular ones on and everything and it pissed him off. He went on leave after about 5 months onboard and when he came back he had the gold caps with the gang crap on them again. His Chief saw them and went off. Took all of about 2 weeks and he was gone. Dishonorable discharge, 3 months in the brig before they let him out, reduction to E1.
It was kind of a shame really because he was a good sailor. He worked hard, never messed with anyone, but he had to have his gangsta look going on and that just doesn't work in the Coast Guard. By doing what he did he failed to obey a direct order, defaced government property, and was no longer within uniform regulations. Bye bye...see ya.
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.
By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man, but I can say this.
The simple FACT is that you have NO clue about what your talking about. Why don't you go back and sit in your classroom and keep pretending your so much more superior than everyone else because of your "education" and leave the real world alone.
You aren't an old fool.
I chose the education route, instead of the Army. I think about "I wish I would have done a 3-4 year hitch out of HS" everyday.
Folks like Aquashrimp are "elitist wannabe's". I laugh at em daily here at Pfizer, just as I did at Ford WHQ's.
Hornet33, I was raised in a somewhat military household. I also "Thank" every Vet I come across in life, because I know "Why they did it." People like Aquashrimp are selfish in life, so the military would chew him up and spit him out. Why? He doesn't realize it's about the man next to you.
<> Hornet33, thanks for serving and congrats on the upcoming B.S. degree!
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
I know the Coast Guard doesn't deal with that crap at all. ....... By doing what he did he failed to obey a direct order, defaced government property, and was no longer within uniform regulations. Bye bye...see ya.
Always said the U.S. Coast Guard was the Department of Defense's best kept secret. Anytime I talk to a kid looking to serve, I point him toward the USCG first. During peacetime, they get many more real-world missions. As the USCG also has to be in the public eye far more than most military, such a stance only makes sense.
Active duty Army is going the other way. With a war on, "needs must when the devil drives". Standards are being lowered, if not "officially". Pressure is on recruiters to meet goals, so corners get cut. There are instances where ASVAB scores have been altered for recruits. Tattoo policy has been greatly relaxed in the Army. Basic training curriculum is better now, but the discipline is starting to really slide in BT and AIT in some cases.
After 9/11 the monthly random urinalysis went the way of the dodo bird for many units. Between 2003 and 2006 I think I was tested twice, when before that I was getting pulled 6 to 8 times a year for a sample.
Training is suffering. A lot of money diverted from everywhere else to support combat operations while Congress played with defense appropriation bills. Education for NCO's is suffering, and I don't agree with promoting to Corporal or buck Sergeant with no schooling at all, but that was the change in 2003/2004.
And most of us to recognize that there are serious problems in the military among some of it's members. If there is good leadership, it can often get dealt with. But, it is a numbers game, and it's fine for a CO Commander to want to get rid of a problem child, but the approval usually comes from higher.... and to higher it is more often than not about end strength numbers than the effect on the unit.
Racism, hazing, theft, bullies, slackers, anti-social personalities..... "Settle down, Francis".... you get all kinds in among the troops, and it doesn't begin or end with "gangs". You hope that the group dynamic, comradeship, and leadership can effectively deal with it --- but it doesn't always happen that way.
-
Originally posted by wooley
I have no idea what the extent of the 'gang' problem is within the US forces. But I do know that gang units in police forces across the country do track the military experience of gang members.
We have so many tens of thousands of gangbangers where I work we couldnt track them with the Super Blue computer.
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
And that study is supposed to indicate what??? That there are people in the military that have no problem with killing the enemy?? So what. This thread is about gang violence in the military and you stated in your earlier thread that at least 6-10% of troops are murderers. I told you that you were wrong and I stand by it. I also stand by my statement that you need to serve before you can accurately comment about life and people in the military. On this subject your book education doesn't matter a damn bit.
You can read all the reports and studies you want. Until you've been in the field, lived the life of a soilder, endured the hardships, pain, and sacrifice that comes as part of the job, you will NEVER know what life is like in the military.
You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.
By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man, but I can say this. My life experiance in the military has taught me more than I will EVER learn sitting in a classroom reading a book, so I'll say it again. Put on the uniform and live the life before you go commenting on the men and women that serve this country. It's real easy to sit back and toss out links from some bull**** studies that have nothing to do with the topic and pull some random figures out of your butt. It takes a real man to put his money where his mouth is and soilder up. Of course we all know your not a real man so I suppose that whole point is moot.
The simple FACT is that you have NO clue about what your talking about. Why don't you go back and sit in your classroom and keep pretending your so much more superior than everyone else because of your "education" and leave the real world alone.
:aok
Salute!
-
Hooah!:aok
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
And that study is supposed to indicate what??? That there are people in the military that have no problem with killing the enemy?? So what. This thread is about gang violence in the military and you stated in your earlier thread that at least 6-10% of troops are murderers. I told you that you were wrong and I stand by it. I also stand by my statement that you need to serve before you can accurately comment about life and people in the military. On this subject your book education doesn't matter a damn bit.
You can read all the reports and studies you want. Until you've been in the field, lived the life of a soilder, endured the hardships, pain, and sacrifice that comes as part of the job, you will NEVER know what life is like in the military.
You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.
By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man, but I can say this. My life experiance in the military has taught me more than I will EVER learn sitting in a classroom reading a book, so I'll say it again. Put on the uniform and live the life before you go commenting on the men and women that serve this country. It's real easy to sit back and toss out links from some bull**** studies that have nothing to do with the topic and pull some random figures out of your butt. It takes a real man to put his money where his mouth is and soilder up. Of course we all know your not a real man so I suppose that whole point is moot.
The simple FACT is that you have NO clue about what your talking about. Why don't you go back and sit in your classroom and keep pretending your so much more superior than everyone else because of your "education" and leave the real world alone.
:aok
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'll take this as you "support Gangs within the United States Military." If you CANNOT understand the "definition of gangs" mentioned BOTH in the article AND the same interpretation by Dago, we cannot help you.
What "We" do you represent here professor?
I`ll take it that you do not understand what was said period.
Like I said, if I need anything from you....I`ll call.
Don`t hold your breath.
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
And that study is supposed to indicate what??? That there are people in the military that have no problem with killing the enemy?? So what. This thread is about gang violence in the military and you stated in your earlier thread that at least 6-10% of troops are murderers. I told you that you were wrong and I stand by it. I also stand by my statement that you need to serve before you can accurately comment about life and people in the military. On this subject your book education doesn't matter a damn bit.
You can read all the reports and studies you want. Until you've been in the field, lived the life of a soilder, endured the hardships, pain, and sacrifice that comes as part of the job, you will NEVER know what life is like in the military.
You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.
By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man, but I can say this. My life experiance in the military has taught me more than I will EVER learn sitting in a classroom reading a book, so I'll say it again. Put on the uniform and live the life before you go commenting on the men and women that serve this country. It's real easy to sit back and toss out links from some bull**** studies that have nothing to do with the topic and pull some random figures out of your butt. It takes a real man to put his money where his mouth is and soilder up. Of course we all know your not a real man so I suppose that whole point is moot.
The simple FACT is that you have NO clue about what your talking about. Why don't you go back and sit in your classroom and keep pretending your so much more superior than everyone else because of your "education" and leave the real world alone.
Three cheers. :aok
-
Shrimp,
To call you an educated idiot would be an insult to the educated. Not all that have an education are so blinded by their exploits in a classroom, as you seem to be, that they can't see the real world.
Do you have any concept that combat is not natural for the average "Western" human being? Don't you understand that a society that places a value on human life and indoctrinates their members would consider a person who has participated in and lived through combat to be somewhat off of the "norm"? Those that were on the front line and had to make a decision to shoot another human being know it's not an easy decision to make. Your article discusses that aspect rather plainly.
It's real easy to describe the concept to one who has never been in a true life and death struggle but it's also impossible. It's like describing the color orange to a person who is totally color blind. They "see" but cannot really appreciate what that color is.
Frankly you have as much credibility regarding the military and combat as mcfarland does in discussing ballistics, which is none.
Hornet did an outstanding job of putting it in writing. I'm afraid my own efforts wouldn't be as eloquent. You really need to learn when to STFU and listen to your elders and betters.
Education is gaining the benefit of the experiance of others without having had to go through the experiance yourself. You've forgotten that aspect of education and assumed that you "know" something about which you have had no experiance. It is a faulty assumption.
You should also not assume that a person who has been in combat, or is serving in the military is not educated.
-
Dago said, "Here is an easy one: Make gang membership a capital offense, and carry out the punishment."
Then:
Jackal1 said "define gang"
Then Masherbum and Dago both got angry and missed the point Jackal had. Someone else has already pointed out what I'm saying in this thread.
Dago, please post your definition of "gang" that you'd like congress to use to determine if you are a gang member or not.
I guess jackal is hoping you can't and therefore your statement should be passed off as something said stupidly.
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
You can read all the reports and studies you want. Until you've been in the field, lived the life of a soilder, endured the hardships, pain, and sacrifice that comes as part of the job, you will NEVER know what life is like in the military.
What the heck does that have to do with him having read studies that support his claim? Nothing. You are appealing to emotion and rhetoric. Do you have anything substantive to support the claim that 99% of military personal are upstanding citizens? Have you conducted any scientific polls of military personal during your employment with them? Have you studied the issue and/and any documents related to it? Or are you just going to rely on being pissed off to carry the arguement?
You want to call me an old fool??? I've spent my entire adult life up to this point serving my country and doing something that makes a differance. I have been in combat, I have killed in the service of my country and my fellow soilders, and I'll carry that responsiblity to my grave. I don't regret a single thing I have done in my career. Does that make me a murderer??? To a young punk like you it probably does.
It may or/may not make you it murder, it definitely doesn't disqualify you for being a fool, but it definitely does make you an appealing to emotion, rhetorical windbag.
By the way, I'm a half semester away from having my Bachelors degree in Electronic Engineering, so YES I am an educated man,
Yeah, because being about to do Fourier transformations is so germain to understanding the issue on the table.
PS: I'm totally not surprised that people are cheering Hornets puffed up rah-rah anecdotal post, and totally freaking ignoring eagl's quiet and contained anecdotal post that complete disagrees with Hornet's.
-
Thrawn,
I notice you have provided no study or material to support the "puffed up" post from shrimp.
Shrimp did not post a study at all to support his claim. What he did post didn't support his stated position.
You mention the "anecdotal post" from Eagle as support yet totally dismiss the "anecdotal post" from Hornet. Why is that? Is it because one of them supports your distrust and dislike of the US Military perhaps? Would that be a case of allowing emotional rhetoric to provide your support on your part? You certainly didn't provide any indication that you did any research.
Your quip about Hornet doing Fourier transformations was so nice there. By that you dismiss his previous career in the field as inconsequential experience.
Since you provided nothing, including actual experience in the organization in question , the US Military, other than scorn I suppose this quote of yours applies., It certainly seems as if you qualify as an "appealing to emotion, rhetorical windbag".
-
Originally posted by Atoon
I went back and reviewed the report, and also my post. I need to include that Jawon died from injuries sustained at his initiation, thus making the story news-worthy. And at the time of his death, his son was not yet born.
So if I understand correctly this guy died during a ritual to join a gang? If he was joining a gang and died.... they should just ignore it. Gang members killing gang members take up too much resources, as long as no innocent folks were harmed or were in danger, ignore it.
-
So if I understand correctly this guy died during a ritual to join a gang? If he was joining a gang and died.... they should just ignore it. Gang members killing gang members take up too much resources, as long as no innocent folks were harmed or were in danger, ignore it.
That would normally be true for civvy street, shuffler, but I doubt that the military wants even the smallest breach of discipline. The JAG should do their utmost, to ruthlessly stomp out any and all signs of organized crime/gang activity in the ranks.
-
Originally posted by Shuffler
So if I understand correctly this guy died during a ritual to join a gang? If he was joining a gang and died.... they should just ignore it. Gang members killing gang members take up too much resources, as long as no innocent folks were harmed or were in danger, ignore it.
I have to dissagree. Finding and prosecuting these sweethearts has to be a priority. Whether they make up 1% or 10% of the force, there is no place for these *******s in my Navy (or anyone else's service either).
-Sik
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
What the heck does that have to do with him having read studies that support his claim? Nothing. You are appealing to emotion and rhetoric. Do you have anything substantive to support the claim that 99% of military personal are upstanding citizens? Have you conducted any scientific polls of military personal during your employment with them? Have you studied the issue and/and any documents related to it? Or are you just going to rely on being pissed off to carry the arguement?
It has everything to do with it. Reading about something and actually living it are two very different things. He can read all he wants about combat and the people that were in it but he'll never understand what it's like to actually be there. I can because I have been there. Yes it's an emotional response because that is what combat is....an emotional response. Kill or be killed. It doesn't get any more emotional than that.
As far as the 99% being upstanding citizens. What could be more upstanding as a citizen than VOLUNTERING to serve your country and willingly put your life on the line for it's protection and the protection of it's citizens? I never claimed that everyone in the military is a saint. But we're not all a bunch of raving maniacs either. Again you have to serve to understand the culture that is developed in the military.
Originally posted by Thrawn
It may or/may not make you it murder, it definitely doesn't disqualify you for being a fool, but it definitely does make you an appealing to emotion, rhetorical windbag.
Right back at you sir.
Originally posted by Thrawn
Yeah, because being about to do Fourier transformations is so germain to understanding the issue on the table.
And his education is what?? What does the type of degree have to do with being educated? That is Auqashrimps whole point in any of these discussions. He has a college education so he knows everything and he can find out anything he needs just by reading about it. Well I have a college education as well but in my case I choose to use my experiance before anything I read in a book.
Originally posted by Thrawn
PS: I'm totally not surprised that people are cheering Hornets puffed up rah-rah anecdotal post, and totally freaking ignoring eagl's quiet and contained anecdotal post that complete disagrees with Hornet's.
I saw Eagles post and do not disagree with anything he said. His experiance has shown something I personally have not seen. However my responses have been towards Aquashrimp who has in the past shown a total lack of respect for anyone or anything having to do with the military. I have suggested to him in the past to join up and learn about it first hand before he passes judgement and his response has always been the same. "I didn't go to college to be some knuckle dragger that can't do anything else in life" While that might not be the exact quote it's very close to something he posted in anouther thread awhile back replying to me on anouther military subject where he was bashing the military.
My responses may be puffed up and rah-rah but when it comes to people putting down MY fellow soilders, sailors, airmen, and marines. People I have fought beside, sailed with, and spent my entire life being around and working with, you bet your bellybutton it pisses me off. Why shouldn't it? My experiance has shown me that the men and women that serve are, for the most part, very good people that joined the military for a noble purpose. You bet I'm going to back them up anywhere, anytime, for anything. That's the brotherhood of arms. That's what being in the military is all about. You cover your buddy knowing full well that your buddy is going to cover you.
-
Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Dago said, "Here is an easy one: Make gang membership a capital offense, and carry out the punishment."
Then:
Jackal1 said "define gang"
Then Masherbum and Dago both got angry and missed the point Jackal had. Someone else has already pointed out what I'm saying in this thread.
Dago, please post your definition of "gang" that you'd like congress to use to determine if you are a gang member or not.
I guess jackal is hoping you can't and therefore your statement should be passed off as something said stupidly.
True...up until the last line.
The thing is when someone starts calling for a vague law to be put into place there always seems to be some fat cat govie listening ,and if said enough, can be used as a platform and a tool. I like to call them #2 pencil laws. They can be added to, taken away from and rewrote on the spot as needed to accomplish whatever is being done at the time. It is never good for the people being governed. It is a tool by which freedom is taken away and power abused.
Jim Crow laws are a good example. Judge, jury and executioner all rolled into one.
We need less laws, less government in general.
When left so vague, the PTA could be viewed as a "gang" if left in the wrong hands. (Some of the meetings I attended when raising my girls wouldn`t hit far from the mark though. :) )
-
to me.. it seems obvious what is happening here.
the liberals are simply mad at the soldiers. The soldiers are not co-operating and whining about how the war is lost and please get me out...
The people are backing the soldiers. It puts the liberals in a bad spot... they can't say that they don't support the troops but... if the troops want to get the job done and stay and say that progress is being made...
Well.. you see the problem?
Sooo... it is time to take a different tact.. pull the rug out from under the support for the troops... you can't just demonize em right out... people won't go for it.
You need to play down the good and play up the bad... act "concerned".. try to seem fair... in the end...paint a picture of good soldiers and men gone bad and a military filled with thugs... keep saying that it is not their fault... that the current administration has turned them into baby killers and filled the ranks with criminals...
Make it so that the oprah watcher and cnn moron associate soldier with criminal...when the support for the troops evaporates... you rip the heart out of the soldier on the ground in the battle making the effort.
Then.... then finally... you can say the war is being fought with draftees who don't want to be there.
it is a basic and disgusting lefty tactic. It is born of the basic dishonesty and "the end justifies the means" philosophy of the left.
You can never know if the end justifies the means.. the means is all you have.
lazs
-
Eagle pretty much nailed it. I was in when the military was probably at it's leanest, they were looking for reasons to kick people out, and paying people to leave. And even then there were a lot of criminals in the military, even though most of them would be kicked out within their first year. I could recount lots of anecdotes. Soldiers robbing banks in their BDUs with their name tags on, seeing a soldier from my battalion on cops, wife beaters, child beaters, rapists, child rapists, gang leaders and crank dealers.
I will say that the vast majority of gangbangers were in remf units, since those types generally eschewed combat arms jobs, and remf MOS's were easier to get.
-
Originally posted by Suave
I will say that the vast majority of gangbangers were in remf units, since those types generally eschewed combat arms jobs, and remf MOS's were easier to get.
I couldn't disagree there. Most of these issues on my installation pop up in maintenance units...but certainly not all of them.