Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Latrobe on July 30, 2007, 09:04:13 PM
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I have been playing Aces High for over a year now and have learned some good tactics to use in dogfights. Recently I have noticed that i die the most when I'm in a 1on1 and the enemy gets on my tail. I'm fairly good when I have a wingman that can help me out even in a 2on2. Out of all I know I don't really know any good tactics to make them overshoot so I can get on their six. Can someone teach me some good maneuvers to get someone off my six in a 1 on 1?
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I would suggest contacting a trainer, or going over to the training arena and lurking in wait for one to show up. I have learned a great deal from Widewing, Ren, Rolex, Shatzi, etc. They are great people and really know their stuff.
Regards,
Trump
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Someone on your six is only a problem if their speed is close to yours. If they're slower than you, you will simply out-run them; faster than you, and its easier to force an overshoot. Same speed, and you in for a tougher challenge.
Remember that an overshoot is primarily the result of your attacker's excess speed over you. Or more precisely, its their forward vector velocity - eg a barrel-roll will shorten your progress forward but not slow you down as much as it would you to fly that distance in a straight line. The longest route between two points is one which isn't straight.
Also remember that the faster you fly, the wider your turn circles will be, and the reverse of that is also true up to a point. This law also applies to your attacker. So, if they're faster than you, they shouldn't be able to follow your evasive maneuvers and if they try, they will make a hash of it and you can maneuver to their six - this is the overshoot.
Getting this speed differential is the key. Sometimes its handed to you on a plate - eg P51 comes screaming down at you at 450MPH and your doing a more controllable 300. No worries about getting them overshooting here. Sometimes you have to engineer it a little by using your throttle and use of flaps and or other braking techniques (gear, dive-brakes etc, rudder skid) and hope your opponent has less finesse than you and cant match your deceleration and end up in front of you.
Taking advantage of the overshoot is the next phase. Sometimes you can engineer a snapshot opportunity as they scream passed, other times, you'll end up saddled up on their dumb arnold. Thinking about the picture after the overshoot before it happens will help you get into the best position to take advantage of it.
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I am pretty new at flying in AH, but I was watching one of the dogfight specials on the history channel on p47's. In one of the situations on there in a real dogfight that occured in WW2, one of the pilots was being dogged by a 109. He used, what I assume is called a slide (kicking rudder left and right) and it caused the 109 to overshoot. The downside is it will burn whatever energy you may have and you may not have enough energy left to get an shot at the person overshooting. Alot of this I beleive would depend on what type of planes are involved. I have used this technique a couple of times and it has worked...once I was in 51d and the other guy in a Nik, the other I was in a spit and the other guy was in a 109.
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hehe don't try that against an F4U...
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Originally posted by Bronnco
I am pretty new at flying in AH, but I was watching one of the dogfight specials on the history channel on p47's. In one of the situations on there in a real dogfight that occured in WW2, one of the pilots was being dogged by a 109. He used, what I assume is called a slide (kicking rudder left and right) and it caused the 109 to overshoot. The downside is it will burn whatever energy you may have and you may not have enough energy left to get an shot at the person overshooting. Alot of this I beleive would depend on what type of planes are involved. I have used this technique a couple of times and it has worked...once I was in 51d and the other guy in a Nik, the other I was in a spit and the other guy was in a 109.
There are slips and there are skids, but no slids. Slip and skids
Slips are used for crosswind landings. They are also used when you want to create extra drag, for instance to steepen an approach.
By definition a slip is any condition where the airflow is misaligned left or right relative to the fuselage.
Normally, an intentional slip should always be a proper slip (as opposed to a skid,
A proper slip is performed by lowering one wing with the ailerons, and then applying opposite rudder. We say a proper slip uses “top rudder” because you are pressing the rudder pedal on the same side as the raised wing.
If you match the rudder deflection to the bank angle just right, no net turn results. This is called a nonturning slip.
The term skid denotes a particular type of slip that occurs when the airplane is in a bank and the uncoordinated airflow is coming from the side with the raised wing. Typically this happens because you have tried to speed up a turn using “bottom rudder”, that is, pressing the rudder pedal on the same side as the lowered wing.
We use the term proper slip to denote a slip that is not a skid.
If you have plenty of airspeed, the aerodynamics of a skid is the same as the aerodynamics of a proper slip. In both cases there is air flowing crosswise over the fuselage. However, you should form the habit of not skidding the airplane, for the following reason.
If the aircraft stalls, any slight crosswise flow will cause one wing to stall before the other. In particular, having the rudder deflected to the right means the aircraft will suddenly roll to the right. If the aircraft is in a 45 degree bank to the right and rolls another 45 degrees in the same direction (because you were applying right rudder pressure), it will reach the knife-edge attitude (wings vertical). If on the other hand you were holding top rudder (still holding right rudder but banking to the left this time), a sudden roll of 45 degrees would leave you with wings level (which is a big improvement over wings vertical).
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Originally posted by Traveler
There are slips and there are skids, but no slids. Slip and skids
Slips are used for crosswind landings. They are also used when you want to create extra drag, for instance to steepen an approach.
By definition a slip is any condition where the airflow is misaligned left or right relative to the fuselage.
Normally, an intentional slip should always be a proper slip (as opposed to a skid,
A proper slip is performed by lowering one wing with the ailerons, and then applying opposite rudder. We say a proper slip uses “top rudder” because you are pressing the rudder pedal on the same side as the raised wing.
If you match the rudder deflection to the bank angle just right, no net turn results. This is called a nonturning slip.
1) not to be wise.....it's actually called a foward slip:-D
The term skid denotes a particular type of slip that occurs when the airplane is in a bank and the uncoordinated airflow is coming from the side with the raised wing. Typically this happens because you have tried to speed up a turn using “bottom rudder”, that is, pressing the rudder pedal on the same side as the lowered wing.
We use the term proper slip to denote a slip that is not a skid.
If you have plenty of airspeed, the aerodynamics of a skid is the same as the aerodynamics of a proper slip. In both cases there is air flowing crosswise over the fuselage. However, you should form the habit of not skidding the airplane, for the following reason.
If the aircraft stalls, any slight crosswise flow will cause one wing to stall before the other. In particular, having the rudder deflected to the right means the aircraft will suddenly roll to the right. If the aircraft is in a 45 degree bank to the right and rolls another 45 degrees in the same direction (because you were applying right rudder pressure), it will reach the knife-edge attitude (wings vertical). If on the other hand you were holding top rudder (still holding right rudder but banking to the left this time), a sudden roll of 45 degrees would leave you with wings level (which is a big improvement over wings vertical).
2)a note on this..if it's modeled in here, the inner wing will usually be the one to stall first as it's moving slower through the air. also....i'm again, not sure...but IF itr's modeled in here, once you stall, usage of ailerons will only drag u farther into the resulting spin......that's how it is in real planes anyway.....u need to use opposite rudder as there's still airflow over it.
now i'm gonna ask another question sorta kinda in this line......in real planes....gonna use a cessna 172....stall clean is i think 57MPH clean.......the higher your bank angle, the higher the stall speed goes.... 60 degrees, the stall on this plane goes up to 81MPH. is this modeled into our cartoon combat aircraft?:D
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john
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Best thing to do is spend some time in the TA with a couple of different trainers. This is a complex topic and will vary based on your plane, the other plane, relative E state, relative strengths, your estimate of the other pilots skill etc...
Here are to totally different clips...both have some "defense" thrown in at the end (somehow I always seem to end up on the deck running:))...
One is an A-20 clip and the other is a "training ride" I did awhile back in a hog for someone....
Hog (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/MAhop.ahf)
A-20 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/prowling%20A-20.ahf)
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How bout in a P-38G, co-alt, relatively co-E against a Spitfire 16 parked about 1000 yrds, not closing, not getting any farther?
I've tried it the F4U, usually no prob, though the stall characteristics of the Hog arent as fun as the P-38. Come to think, I still haven't learned that climbing turn. Everytime I try, even vs. a Zeke whos slightly slower I just can't seem to do it.
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A well flown spitXVI 1000 behind anything is awful tough to overcome. I dont fly the 38 much (G or otherwise) but I do fly the A-20 pretty well and its at least somewhat similiar in some regards. Its hard to describe (for me at least) exactly how you nudge em out front. I looked but dont have a good a20 vs spit16 clip in that regard. Alot of the key with a spit16 is not getting to the situation described. I rummaged thru some of the unwatched A-20 stuff I built up and found 2 that might help. One is a defense vs a la-7 that shows alot of the same things I use vs a spit 16 and the other is a A-20 fight vs fuze (Ki-84) I eventually lose. The A-20 just doesnt have the visibility or sustained performance to handle the Ki but you can get a sense for the evasives required again....
It's a subtlely out of plane scissor type set of yoyo's. your trying to get the spitty "out of sync" with you and keep him slighty out of plane while you eat that 1000 yds up...a long process...but the "better" more traditional "moves" often just set up a good to great shot solution for the spit...in my mind your focusing on giving marginal shots while counting on the spits E retention to combine with your "out of sync/out of plane" to force the guy out front...
"La-defense" (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20laladefense.ahf)
A-20 vs ki-84 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20vsfuze.ahf)
This isnt really applicable here but might help some folks understand "E fighting" a bit. This is a A-20 vs 109K clip. Basically its a Neg E "defense" that transitions to a bit of a co to positive E climbing scissors that forces the 109 to an angles defense. The A20 "zoom" is a bit unique but basically everything works in a hog, 38 or other similiar bird...
A-20 vs 109 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20vs109.ahf)
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What makes the game so fun is for every flight maneuver there is a counter move. Let's take a look:
Causing an overshoot. You may want to keep an eye on the guy closing behind you. Try and stay "out of plane" with him (make sure your wings don't match his wing position). Try rolling right or left just a lil then pull some and roll back the other way while standing on a your high rudder pedal (High wing-rudder). Continue to stay out of plane and use the rudders almost continuously you will be slowing down fairly rapidly. As he continues to close offset left or right a lil more and stand on the rudders. If he is paying close attention to whats going on he will end up in front of you, off to the side. Now you begin to point your nose (gunsight works well) at his high 6 to maintain position on his 6 without overshotting yourslef.
Preventing an overshoot. It's fairly simple to prevent an over shoot by pulling up BEFORE you overtake the bogie, then immediately roll inverted. At this point you are looking down on the guy and can either push the stick fwd a lil bit to increase the seperation and prevent the overshoot or pull back in now that you matched his speed, with a very small overtake.
Many planes easily can do a 180 degree reversal back into a plane behind them in as little as 600-700 yds. If you spot the guy back there closing at those distances I'd suggest you immediately reverse back into him and go for angles to get on his 6. Alternatively, if you're low you can reverse and force him into a tuck under maneuver. If he tries to tuck with you his speed will take him into an auger. You force him to veer or away from you and you can reset the fight or bug out. Rudders are important at the merge after a reversal. Using a rudder will pretty much make most HO shots a miss.
Typing and reading puts the thought of how it should work into your mind. Actually performing the maneuver reinforces what you've read and lets you experience how its really performed. Drop by the TA and get a work out with on of the Trainers.
I hope this helps.
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heya latrobe, dont know if this will help but i like to call it a vertical overshoot. two examples in this quick .ahf film, both of which the enemy are impossible to out run and within lethal range on our tail when the manouvers are attempted.
this works well as a one timer for almost any planes especially cannon equiped. It can also be a very quick way to find out that the enemy is a good pilot and youre going to die anyhow :)
this example also shows how it is not the plane, but the manouvers and persons in control of any given fight. here a 262 forces a Spit16 to overshoot from 400 yrds and co-speed. the spit should not ever let that happen you say, but its amazing how many times it will work if you let them think youre going to be an easy kill and manouver as they open fire.
Film Link (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/vertical_overshoot.ahf)
S! good hunting.
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Well i dont want to disappoint you but generally when hes on your 6 with similar speed hes in a verry good position. All the overshooting maneuvers put you at danger of being shot down or at least loose your e and sit there like a duck.
So while any maneuver is probably better than to fly straight and get shot down dont put to much expectations in all that fancy stuff described. Most successfull will be an unexpected maneuver that uses the strength of your aircraft in relation to your enemy. So you have to learn at least 5 diffrent moves... and it depends on your plane.
1. vert scissor with a bit of horizontal movement to be unpredictive
2. killing chandle pulling up into vertical and come right back down on him on your second scissor... yonoi style
3. pull him into rolling scissors where you fly better than him
4. hit the break style overshoot with gear/flaps/rudder nail with canon when he passes
5. slow down to below stall speed where you already sink because you cant hold lvl and see him spin out or dash ahead... p38 can 'fly' 30mph while dropping like a rock and continue flying with applying power cpple of 100 feet lower
6. pull him in a climbing spiral
7. dive away, pull out of the dive right above the ground and let him lawndart
of course, as i said, all this wont work if hes a good pilot and concentrated. Dont expect to put out a "wonder move" once hes on your six, you have to do that long before...
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I've been on the receiving end of Bats "vertical reversal" (and his straight barrel roll defense) and its very tough to counter.
If you look at the last 3 posts I think you get a very strong commonality of the following...
1) applied knowledge base
2) subtle variation from the "norm"
3) aggressive mental approach
The good sticks are looking to kill you, not just defend. They have a good grasp of overall ACM and can apply it creatively. They are also all very comfortable flying "on the edge" of the flight envelope.
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All these suggestions are great and will help fighting with someone on your 6.
However, in the LWMA's, you'll hardly ever find yourself trying to fend off a SINGLE attacker on your 6 if you are on the deck. Most times you'll more likely to find 3,4 or many more on your 6.
Trying to cause an overshoot when there's half a dozen enemys on your 6 isn't the best maneuver. IMO. Actualy, I don't know what would be the best maneuver other than purposely augering and sending a one finger salute to all involved. :P
In the LWMA environment I think it's best to maintain a good sense of your SA to keep the above scenario from playing out.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
heya latrobe, dont know if this will help but i like to call it a vertical overshoot. two examples in this quick .ahf film, both of which the enemy are impossible to out run and within lethal range on our tail when the manouvers are attempted.
this works well as a one timer for almost any planes especially cannon equiped. It can also be a very quick way to find out that the enemy is a good pilot and youre going to die anyhow :)
this example also shows how it is not the plane, but the manouvers and persons in control of any given fight. here a 262 forces a Spit16 to overshoot from 400 yrds and co-speed. the spit should not ever let that happen you say, but its amazing how many times it will work if you let them think youre going to be an easy kill and manouver as they open fire.
Film Link (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/vertical_overshoot.ahf)
S! good hunting.
ok..htis is gonna sound dumb....but it may help some of us........i watched this film.......saw the maneuvers u did to cause the overshoot of the spit, and the pony when u were in a nik........but........is there any possibility that you remember what you did inside the aircraft during these maneuvers? i mean like throttle management, whether or not you were cross controlled at any time, etc?
thanks!!
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john
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Originally posted by Flatbar
All these suggestions are great and will help fighting with someone on your 6.
However, in the LWMA's, you'll hardly ever find yourself trying to fend off a SINGLE attacker on your 6 if you are on the deck. Most times you'll more likely to find 3,4 or many more on your 6.
Trying to cause an overshoot when there's half a dozen enemys on your 6 isn't the best maneuver. IMO. Actualy, I don't know what would be the best maneuver other than purposely augering and sending a one finger salute to all involved. :P
In the LWMA environment I think it's best to maintain a good sense of your SA to keep the above scenario from playing out.
I find myself in that situation ALL of the time. I'm a masochist with no regard as to where I dive in sometimes. Unfortunatley, once there I usually decide I want out.
When that happens I usually break into a run, dragging multiple cons. It doesn't matter if they are faster, slower, turn better or worse, I find random rolls, half rolls, barrel rolls and half barrels to be quite effective in making them miss with the occasional mild break turn thrown in for good measure. The key is to be unpredictable and remain out of plane with the nearest pursuer(s).
I've dragged 5 and 6 cons for over a sector this way and actually gotten home to the field ack doing it. I've also watched guys spray off their entire clips trying to get a hit on me, sometimes multiple guys, then break off frustrated.
Half the time I get proxie kills on guys augering behind me or I get an overshoot for a kill along the way.
I don't always survive this but whether I do or not I always end up with a big smile on my face after one of these chases. I just LOVE frustrating my opponents.
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Originally posted by Latrobe
I have been playing Aces High for over a year now and have learned some good tactics to use in dogfights. Recently I have noticed that i die the most when I'm in a 1on1 and the enemy gets on my tail. I'm fairly good when I have a wingman that can help me out even in a 2on2. Out of all I know I don't really know any good tactics to make them overshoot so I can get on their six. Can someone teach me some good maneuvers to get someone off my six in a 1 on 1?
Training arena will your best bet....and looking at the films provided here in this thread.
I personally have NO idea about ACM.....OR what I should say...what move is what...I just try things...copy to a point what I see.
Youll learn by doing and failing...then getting better and better.
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Originally posted by CAP1
ok..htis is gonna sound dumb....but it may help some of us........i watched this film.......saw the maneuvers u did to cause the overshoot of the spit, and the pony when u were in a nik........but........is there any possibility that you remember what you did inside the aircraft during these maneuvers? i mean like throttle management, whether or not you were cross controlled at any time, etc?
thanks!!
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john
im not so good at explaining things but best i could say is that we are trying to dump as much speed as possible cutting the power and pulling up. the enemy must be closing slightly on us already or they wont likely fall for it. as for controls its pretty simple, the roll in the 262 is intended to be a tight barrel just enough to spoil thier aim, flown with elevators and rudder more than ailerons(also helps to burn off speed). the manouver in the 262 was desperate and should not have worked so well, but try something unlikely and its better than sitting there and getting shot anyhow trying to run.
the nik clip again shows the first atempt on a reversal that goes badly wrong. had the P51 flown smoother it was an easy shot to rip our wings off. p51 misses and overshoot and we also miss. situation reset. dont chase him or he will just extend untill safe. we make the assesment that the p51 isnt having a great day for gunnery and the second manouver makes certain he either has to kill us or get shot at himself. BUT only because he takes the bait.
never trust an enemy that you know is letting you have thier tail, if you see a good reversal performed on you and you survive, dont make the mistake again. either slow right down and commit to saddle up, or keep your speed up and turn away from the enemy, not back up or into him.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
never trust an enemy that you know is letting you have thier tail, if you see a good reversal performed on you and you survive, dont make the mistake again. either slow right down and commit to saddle up, or keep your speed up and turn away from the enemy, not back up or into him.
Good advice :p ...
Best way to learn is to go up and fly around looking for higher cons... try to get them to attack you, then shoot them down :)
Once you get the basic principals down, maneuvers will make much more sense to you. They should be second nature really. Just work on understanding what Spatula said, and remember... your goal is never to turn, or simply evade-The best way to live is to kill the plane on your 6.
Don't turn, or simply evade.... evade while setting a con up, but plan to drop back into their flight path as they overshoot. You never want to move farther, or waste more energy than you must, this takes watching the enemy...Keep your eye on the ball. I could go on and on.... Spatula did a good write-up already though :)
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All of this is great advise thank you guys very much I shall try these tactics out and train so i can be as good as i want to be.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
im not so good at explaining things but best i could say is that we are trying to dump as much speed as possible cutting the power and pulling up. the enemy must be closing slightly on us already or they wont likely fall for it. as for controls its pretty simple, the roll in the 262 is intended to be a tight barrel just enough to spoil thier aim, flown with elevators and rudder more than ailerons(also helps to burn off speed). the manouver in the 262 was desperate and should not have worked so well, but try something unlikely and its better than sitting there and getting shot anyhow trying to run.
the nik clip again shows the first atempt on a reversal that goes badly wrong. had the P51 flown smoother it was an easy shot to rip our wings off. p51 misses and overshoot and we also miss. situation reset. dont chase him or he will just extend untill safe. we make the assesment that the p51 isnt having a great day for gunnery and the second manouver makes certain he either has to kill us or get shot at himself. BUT only because he takes the bait.
1)i'm glad u mentioned this, as i meant to ask about it also........when i noticed that you didn't continue the chase, but rather let him see you turn off.....then i saw him grabn alt an come back at ya.......when i try this, i almost always die...but i am gettin better since i've finally started commin to LW though.
never trust an enemy that you know is letting you have thier tail, if you see a good reversal performed on you and you survive, dont make the mistake again. either slow right down and commit to saddle up, or keep your speed up and turn away from the enemy, not back up or into him.
2) this is another one i have trouble with.......how do you tell if someone's lettin you have their tail?
thanks again batfink<>
john
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the thing about that slide thing tho is u gotta relize it was real life... there is wind, possable rain, temperature the piolet, stuff like that, in game tho there is none of that, but i do think it would b cool if HTC could make it so it would rain, snow and so on.
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well thats the tough part cap, and telling you the exact thought process i go through to make myself look a juicy target would cut off part of my game plan that i would have to rework:D more importantly my answer would be useless fighting anyone but me as everyone flies differently, baits differently, and thinks differently.
one hint on the most basic level, as blukitty says, is 'try to get them to attack you'. so if you see someone start a shallow diving turn subtly as you get to about 1k-800yrds, there is a very good chance they have seen you and are waiting to spoil your shot with the next manouver, which might also be the last manouver. this behaviour would denote a more experienced furballing type player who is 'givein me their tail'. the less experienced at turn fighting often break much earlier even before 2000yrds giving the attacker much longer to readjust aim and make a good gun solution. even if the attacker misses the shot in this scenario the less experienced defender is usualy now flying an opposing direction and needing to use up even more speed to turn and face the next attack.
the basic priciple that must be broken is that you are 'turning' onto an attacker's six. the harder advanced principle being that its much quicker, safer and effective to decelerate onto an attacker's six
S!
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I like to get into a rolling scissors. Lets you keep your speed, while most pilots in the MA will try to slow down to prevent overshoot. If they slow down, they are usually dead. you can use the vert to slow you down, and wingover right onto them. Maybe this is a bit of a modified rolling scissors. I think there is a good example of this at the trainers web site.
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Originally posted by CAP1
2) this is another one i have trouble with.......how do you tell if someone's lettin you have their tail?
thanks again batfink<>
john
If their name is greebo or blukitty, then you know for sure.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
well thats the tough part cap, and telling you the exact thought process i go through to make myself look a juicy target would cut off part of my game plan that i would have to rework:D more importantly my answer would be useless fighting anyone but me as everyone flies differently, baits differently, and thinks differently.
one hint on the most basic level, as blukitty says, is 'try to get them to attack you'. so if you see someone start a shallow diving turn subtly as you get to about 1k-800yrds, there is a very good chance they have seen you and are waiting to spoil your shot with the next manouver, which might also be the last manouver. this behaviour would denote a more experienced furballing type player who is 'givein me their tail'. the less experienced at turn fighting often break much earlier even before 2000yrds giving the attacker much longer to readjust aim and make a good gun solution. even if the attacker misses the shot in this scenario the less experienced defender is usualy now flying an opposing direction and needing to use up even more speed to turn and face the next attack.
the basic priciple that must be broken is that you are 'turning' onto an attacker's six. the harder advanced principle being that its much quicker, safer and effective to decelerate onto an attacker's six
S!
ya know what...i actually wasn't looking at it that way, but do fully understand.........
one thing u mentioned above just hit me as one of the mistakes i might be making.......it seems that if i let someone into the 400-600 range, i get shot to crap BEFORE i try anything....so i've been doing things when i see nmy at a min of 1k.......this is probably still enough time for them to adjust, isn't it?
thanks again dude!
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john
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Originally posted by CAP1
ya know what...i actually wasn't looking at it that way, but do fully understand.........
one thing u mentioned above just hit me as one of the mistakes i might be making.......it seems that if i let someone into the 400-600 range, i get shot to crap BEFORE i try anything....so i've been doing things when i see nmy at a min of 1k.......this is probably still enough time for them to adjust, isn't it?
thanks again dude!
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john
Hi Cap,
BAtfink is someone you should hook up with sometime in the DA or TA for a couple of moves or evasives. HE is really a good stick and loves to teach people. Not to mention he is my squaddie and I have learned a thing or 2 from hime. I can't do em right , but I have learned plenty.
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Originally posted by Balsy
If their name is greebo or blukitty, then you know for sure.
If you know they are Kitty et al in advance, get out of there. There are easier targets out there ;) Unless of course you want a lesson.
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Never run from a fight against these two players. Both will teach you alot
in just a few shorts seconds.
When you encounter either of them...turn on your Recorder...and later...
study the film to see how they do what they both do so very well.
Both are Classy Pilots!
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youre too kind redtop, and too modest we learn from each other :)
CAP, its just timing. practice reversals by getting shot down. after a while you will avoid certain attacks and learn the timing there. then after a long time you have been shot down in almost everyway possible, you should slowly start to recognise certain situations earlier, and be in a possition to effectively counter them through your experience.
to be bait is easy, to be bait and survive is the challenge. once you have started making a few reversals and 'baited' a few high cons to their death.....you may never feel compelled to play the 'who can grab more altitude' game again.
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The overshoot is one of my main ways to get kills. I like the idea of having the con come to me and put himself in a bad position. He's at least somewhat predictable, which is a bad thing for him. If he's attacking me I know right where he wants to be, and can use that info to help set him up. That's the greed factor at work. He want's to kill me.
As he realizes he's going to miss his shot, he will often pull hard in a last ditch effort to score a hit. That helps slow him down for me. As he realizes he's going to end up in front of me, he often tries to slow down quickly. That won't stop him from overshooting, but will make him nice and slow after he goes by me. If he's a little too fast for me to hit, I spray a bit so he see's tracers and dodges, or feels committed and tries to break turn back into me. That's the fear factor at work. He doesn't want to get kilt.
Greed and fear. Those two emotions will get you in trouble.
Another thing to keep in mind is the mindset of all the people giving advice so far. They are all viewing the guy behind them as a kill, not a killer. Even though they may be out front in a "vulnerable" position, they are "setting up" the bad guy, and allowing / making him react to THEIR manuevers. The guy out front is "leading" the fight, while the guy on their six is "reacting" to them. The guy in a fight who is "reacting" is a step behind the leader. That's bad when the leader has guns too. You want to lead or dictate the fight, not let the other guy do it. If you feel like the "defender" in a fight, you are a step behind (or two or three).
It all starts with SA (Situational Awareness). Look ALL around you, ALL the time. Even in the middle of a fight I'm glancing around. If you "find" someone on your six, you've already screwed up. You're a step behind already. If you ever find yourself a little peeved because you didn't get a check six, you lack SA. If you get "Check Six'ed" BEFORE you already knew there was an "issue" developing near you, you lack SA. If you don't know what the friendlies are flying near you, and how their fight will likely develop, you are lacking in SA. What direction is "safety"?
I get check six'ed alot. I appreciate it alot. NOT because they are telling me to check my six, but because it means the friendlies around me are paying attention (displaying SA). The only time I get check six'ed before I'm well aware of what's going on is when I'm reading a book (which I do alot while playing). Those are the times I'm likely to die.
Timing varies on the overshoot manuever by several factors. Closure rate is what I go by. You don't want to wait too long, or you get killed when you initiate the manuever. Starting too soon is just as bad. It "shows your hand" and makes YOU predictable. I generally start my set-up when the con is 1000-1.5K behind for an overshoot. I alter how tight I turn to "fine tune" the timing.
Another way to tell if your being "led" as you sneak up on someones six, is to see where they are leading you. Is the fight running mostly north/south? Is the guy who seems to not see you dragging you out east or west all by himself? Is he seperating you from help? Is he in an F4U? Did he "****" one wing down a tad as you closed to 1.2 or 2k, as if he's watching you over his shoulder? Is he letting you catch him, even though you are in a slower plane? If your "warning bells" aren't ringing, you are in trouble.
You can learn from getting shot down- but only if you can figure out how/why it happened.
MtnMan
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LOL! I got moderated! Substitute the word "tilt" where you see the "****".
LOL, too funny!
Apparently the censors thought I was refering to the male anatomy!
MtnMan
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I never thought of it that way mtnman. The one being chased is leading the fight. Thanks for the advice I'll try this out.
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MT hit the nail on the head...attitude is 90% of the battle. While many of us may never reach the elite level of kitty or greebo you can go along way just thinking "right". If you look at the various quotes in robert shaws book all point to the value of mindset. Two that immediately come to mind are prominantly displayed...
paraphrasing here....
"There are two kinds of planes, fighters and targets" {this is the biggest key to success in the A-20, Mossie or similiar bird}, I may die but I'm sure not a "target".
"Better a MIG on my six then no MIG at all" Sums up kitty and greebo quite nicely I think. Once you view the guy on your 6 as a "target" the whole world changes...
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was searching the web for some combat maneuvers and came across this site. This guy sums up basicly everything you need to know to survive in the virtual skies and makes a good point about everything.
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/acmintro.htm
NOTE: when you get to Chapter 4: defensive BFM skip the "How to dodge a missle: part unless you seem to be shot at by HVAR's alot.:D
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certainly has some good fundemental overviews but also seems to have some basic errors. For one the lift vector is not 90 degree's up on any plane (to the best of my knowledge)...however its easiest way to visualize it (and it is close to 90 degrees). 3-1 is fundementally wrong as well...he's creating a 2-d world. A simple lag turn or hi yoyo works just fine. Further although the term "flying to the elbow" is generally regarded as coming from pilots "hand fighting" showing combat scenarios...the term was used by robert johnson and many jug and 51 drivers as the term for an out of plane lag roll attack that used roll & Rudder to gain lead on a breaking bandit...it was in fact Johnsons favorite attack...
in fact this will get you killed every time IMO...
"Rate Kills" is a common fighter saying. Simply put, a fighter with a higher turn rate can out maneuver a fighter with a tighter Turn Radius. The ability to put your nose on the bandit to allow a shot is more important that being able to fly in a tighter circle. Get to your Corner Velocity, pull your nose on him, shoot him … the party is over, you win. You no longer have to worry about him.
Alot of good info is presented but from my perspective not in a way that will help you in AH or any "guns only" fight. For example "corner velocity" is a good way to get killed...it is important (if you dont know the doghouse chart for your favorite ride your at a disagvantage)....but only at the right time and if yours beats his. If the other guy has a "better" corner velocity does that mean you blow up if he "hits" it. Everybody here is blessed with what is easily the best training cadre ever assembled for a flight sim.
From what I read this guy might be the missle "ace of aces" but he'd be hard pressed here....
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Originally posted by mtnman
The overshoot is one of my main ways to get kills. I like the idea of having the con come to me and put himself in a bad position. He's at least somewhat predictable, which is a bad thing for him. If he's attacking me I know right where he wants to be, and can use that info to help set him up. That's the greed factor at work. He want's to kill me.
As he realizes he's going to miss his shot, he will often pull hard in a last ditch effort to score a hit. That helps slow him down for me. As he realizes he's going to end up in front of me, he often tries to slow down quickly. That won't stop him from overshooting, but will make him nice and slow after he goes by me. If he's a little too fast for me to hit, I spray a bit so he see's tracers and dodges, or feels committed and tries to break turn back into me. That's the fear factor at work. He doesn't want to get kilt.
Greed and fear. Those two emotions will get you in trouble.
Another thing to keep in mind is the mindset of all the people giving advice so far. They are all viewing the guy behind them as a kill, not a killer. Even though they may be out front in a "vulnerable" position, they are "setting up" the bad guy, and allowing / making him react to THEIR manuevers. The guy out front is "leading" the fight, while the guy on their six is "reacting" to them. The guy in a fight who is "reacting" is a step behind the leader. That's bad when the leader has guns too. You want to lead or dictate the fight, not let the other guy do it. If you feel like the "defender" in a fight, you are a step behind (or two or three).
It all starts with SA (Situational Awareness). Look ALL around you, ALL the time. Even in the middle of a fight I'm glancing around. If you "find" someone on your six, you've already screwed up. You're a step behind already. If you ever find yourself a little peeved because you didn't get a check six, you lack SA. If you get "Check Six'ed" BEFORE you already knew there was an "issue" developing near you, you lack SA. If you don't know what the friendlies are flying near you, and how their fight will likely develop, you are lacking in SA. What direction is "safety"?
I get check six'ed alot. I appreciate it alot. NOT because they are telling me to check my six, but because it means the friendlies around me are paying attention (displaying SA). The only time I get check six'ed before I'm well aware of what's going on is when I'm reading a book (which I do alot while playing). Those are the times I'm likely to die.
Timing varies on the overshoot manuever by several factors. Closure rate is what I go by. You don't want to wait too long, or you get killed when you initiate the manuever. Starting too soon is just as bad. It "shows your hand" and makes YOU predictable. I generally start my set-up when the con is 1000-1.5K behind for an overshoot. I alter how tight I turn to "fine tune" the timing.
Another way to tell if your being "led" as you sneak up on someones six, is to see where they are leading you. Is the fight running mostly north/south? Is the guy who seems to not see you dragging you out east or west all by himself? Is he seperating you from help? Is he in an F4U? Did he "****" one wing down a tad as you closed to 1.2 or 2k, as if he's watching you over his shoulder? Is he letting you catch him, even though you are in a slower plane? If your "warning bells" aren't ringing, you are in trouble.
You can learn from getting shot down- but only if you can figure out how/why it happened.
MtnMan
i have to say.....i've been reading a LOT of informative posts in here lately, both in reply to some of my questions and others......your replies though are almost ALWAYS very particular in their wording...as if you were an instructor.....this makes them more easily understood, and also creates an understanding of why you do what you do.
htank ya sir!
<>
john
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Thanks for the compliment John!
I think you caught me. I have been an instructor for some activities in my lifetime that required very specific wording to get my point across. I started with teaching field sports at a Boy Scout camp (archery, shotgun, rifle, and muzzleloading), and then shifted into directing a high ropes course for four years. I also worked on my teaching certification, but didn't complete it.
As the director of the high ropes course (an obstacle course up in the trees and on telephone poles) I was responsible for the fun and safety of several hundred people each year that were aged 14 and up. People that are up 35-50 feet above the ground have a tendancy to be fearful and need very clear, simple to follow / understand instructions. Imagine being on a small platform 150 feet away from your "student" and explaining to them how to tie a knot so that it is tied correctly. Death is a possible outcome if it's not done right. We did practice on the ground, but people forget things under stress.
I got real good at "reading" people, and being able to tell if they understood what I was saying, or if I needed to re-phrase it.
MtnMan
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In a p38g vs a spit16 at 1000...i would chop throttle and climb for a sec adding sideslip..flip over and barrel-roll trying at all costs to get that first notch of flap out,then firewall it...then u got a chance.If he tries to turn with you he's playing into your hand..or if he's smart he'll hit wep and goes verticle and come back around for another pass at an advantage...but heck,u got him off your 6 for a bit..maybe see if u can goad him into a flap fite or switch tactics on him....HO if shot presents itself.Your in for a tough fite though if he's a good stik.
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Originally posted by Latrobe
I have been playing Aces High for over a year now and have learned some good tactics to use in dogfights. Recently I have noticed that i die the most when I'm in a 1on1 and the enemy gets on my tail. I'm fairly good when I have a wingman that can help me out even in a 2on2. Out of all I know I don't really know any good tactics to make them overshoot so I can get on their six. Can someone teach me some good maneuvers to get someone off my six in a 1 on 1?
I have a film for you showing some of the basic evasive manuvers.I was fighting a Yak-9-U and a N1K.The film is only 7 minutes long due to the fact that i didn't start recording until 1/2 way through the fight.
Big $S$ too QQuartr & Drdedeye
The biggest goes to Batfink for hosting it, thanks Mate !:aok
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/film7_0002.ahf