Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Krusty on July 30, 2007, 09:13:42 PM
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Missing the RIGHT wingtip.
http://www.nakatomitower.com/190a8_1winglanding.ahf
The next day I found myself in a situation with the LEFT wingtip gone, and was just barely able to get flaps out, but was unable to stay level when attempting to land at a v-base. Not saying it's impossible, but much harder. I rolled over even with full rudder and crashed/ditched.
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Good idea for a post Krusty! I'm surprised by how often I see people just give up and auger in after losing a wingtip. Of course, maybe they lose control, or don't want to rtb damaged, but still...
I find I can rtb safely w/o a wingtip 19 out of 20 tries with my F4U, which I believe is easier than in the 190.
My standard method is to exit the fight, and fast! I sometimes "fake" loss of control so my opponent will leave me alone. As I exit the fight I trim aileron all the way away from the damaged side, and sometimes need a bit of rudder too. I often (always?) need to hold rudder as well. W/O manual trimming landing is REALLY tough w/o a wingtip.
On approach, I get my gear down, and I only drop a few notches of flaps (2 in the hog). With the flaps down I can re-trim aileron and rudder back closer to normal. I keep a fair amont of throttle on all the way down, and keep my speed higher than normal. I try to set up my turn onto final so I can turn AWAY from the damaged wing.
I normally land gear-down, but if the landing is going bad, and I'm lined up on the runway I sometimes belly slide.
Landing on the CV helps too, if you have a plane with a tailhook. :^)
MtnMan
Krusty- Saber and I will be going through Denver (picking my brother up at the airport in early September. We'll be heading down to Pagosa Springs for muzzleloader elk. If things work out, maybe meet up with you for a brew?
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You mean you are supposed to land with wing tips?
Why don't people tell me these things!
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/wrecked38.jpg)
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A lot depends on the plane, generally speaking the faster a plane is the easier it seems to be to fly with one wingtip missing.
IE bombers don't do it at all, P51's, la7's, and tiffy's do it pretty well.
This is where knowing your manual trim really helps.
Also speaking for myself, flaps can really mess up your final approach.
I may or may not worry about dropping gear. Everything you do to slow your plane down makes it that much harder to keep flying and controlled. If I do drop flaps & gear its going to be the very last possible second once I'm coming over the threshold. Also you want to come in as low and flat as possible in case you can't hold it. Then hopefully the wing scrapes and can't roll you over.
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I had the chance to do this in a spit, missing the left wing tip. I had to ride hard right rudder and keep speed up as much as possible. Unfortunatly as soon as I arrived at base and droped gear...it caused the left side to pull down and I could not pull out. Im assuming this was caused by loss of speed. Ill go belly in next time.
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You can't belly in missing a wingtip, because most times 1) you're too fast (instant boom) or 2) you're sliding sideways off the runway (defeating the point of landing anyways).
Mtnman, good luck on the hunting trip. I'm just too busy during the week and have to spend the weekend with the family or doing chores (that don't get done during the week). I'll have to pass, but thanks for the suggestion.
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Bellying in w/o a wingtip is easy. If not easier than with gear, than certainly not any harder. I just use gear so in the off chance I stop off the runway I can taxi back on for a safe landing.
As long as speed is lower than 150, you get no "boom".
Again, I only use the gear so I can taxi, but honestly I can't remember the last time I stopped off the runway, either with or without gear.
Maybe I get too much practice landing damaged.
I understand the busy schedule Krusty! We're trying to coordinate meeting times as it is after a 14 hour drive, so I'm not sure how feasible it would be anyway...
MtnMan
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Originally posted by mtnman
Maybe I get too much practice landing damaged.
:rofl
I hear ya!!! There was this one time where I was losing oil, half a wingtip gone, pilot bleeding out, blacking out, the only thing near was a CV, so I come down rudder, flaps, just between blackouts put 'er on the deck, smash sideways into the tower (saved me from falling off the deck) and I came to a rest blacked out.
My first thought was, "Damn, I'm getting too good at this kinda stuff!"
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I will say that if you do get too slow, you die. You'll end up in this crazy stall/spin thing that makes me feel like a piece of paper dropped from a skyscraper.
Since I'm usually trying to rtb as quickly as possible, I'm full throttle most of the way home.
I use my gear as brakes to get me under 225 so I can get a notch, and then another notch of flaps down. Then I can trim my remaining aileron back closer to normal. I keep my throttle at a much higher setting than normal on approach to keep my speed around 175-180.
Any slower, and I die, any more flaps and I die.
I then line up and land. LOTS of rudder is often needed to keep the stubby wing from dropping. If it does, you die. The hogs large rudder has a lot to due with landing it damaged.
My decision to land gear up or gear down is made about 3 seconds before I touch down. If things look good, it stays down. If things are looking squirrelly, I raise them so I can slide down the runway w/o drifting off. If I drift off things have gone badly to the point I'll likely break one gear off, leaving me off the runway.
My single biggest obstacle to a safe wingless landing is the bogie originally on my six, or another that finds me rtb.
I know I have film of wingless CV landings, it wouldn't be hard to produce some with gear up and gear down on a landing strip. I don't have a way to host it though.
MtnMan
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Lol, wish you'd have filmed that one Krusty!
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Originally posted by Ghosth
A lot depends on the plane, generally speaking the faster a plane is the easier it seems to be to fly with one wingtip missing.
IE bombers don't do it at all, P51's, la7's, and tiffy's do it pretty well.
I don't think speed of the plane makes a difference at all. It just depends on the plane.
I can land a F6F-5 (one of the mid-speed planes) with only half a wing one or both each sides while FW190's (one of the faster planes) are difficult to control when you slow down on final approach.
Between similar planes the Spit is easy to handle missing half of one or both wings while the C.205 is nearly uncontrollable.
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They are definately easier to land when you are missing BOTH wingtips, at least if you can get a notch of flaps down and use rudder to bank. I tend to forget I have no ailerons though and wonder why I can't get my plane to do what I want.
Personally, I'm fairly surprised to see a 190 or 109 fly by UNDER CONTROL, even with no damage. I flew a 190 a few years back, and that was enough of that! I would think landing one with damaged wings would be more difficult than in an F4U.
I've landed spits missing wingtips too, and that wasn't all that rough either.
The last 20ft of altitude is definately the worst part of the whole deal, with the lower airspeed.
MtnMan
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Oh, years ago it used to be WAY easier. Since the airflow recoding (what was it, AH 2.6?) it's been nearly impossible for me. Which is why I exclaim "oh my god!" when I land safely at the end of the film (posted above)
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The reason why it's easier to fly planes missing wingtips when they're faster is because when their thrust:lift ratio is 1:1 or greater can't remember it becomes like a rocket, and no lift is needed to fly straight. So yeah the faster you go the easier it should be to fly without a wingtip which is why everybody knows that when you start to slow down you have trouble controlling the plane.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I don't think speed of the plane makes a difference at all. It just depends on the plane.
Let me rephrase this; I don't think faster planes vs. slower planes makes a difference at all.
I do know that any plane missing part of one or more wings is easier to fly fast than slow.
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f6f-- I belly in.. if your approach is straight you can use a little rudder to keep yourself centered on the tarmac.
i just make sure i am just at or below 100 as i touch
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Play with the flaps too. Sometimes it helps, other times it hurts. But sometimes it will lift the short wing a bit and get the nose up
That and learn to live with full rudder left or right and the surviving aileron pushing the good wing down.
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Baldeagl, I DARE you to try landing a A6m with a missing wingtip.
Or a Hurricaine, or even a early spitfire, ie spit 1 or 5.
Now try it with a Yak, La7, 190, or pony.
HUGE difference between planes, esp between fast ones and slow ones.
But don't take my word for it. Test it for yourself.
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The difference lies in the airframe itself, not the speed at which said airframe normally flies. US planes usually land best missing a wingtip because their flaps go down at higher speeds. Not because the speed itself, just because the flaps.
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Originally posted by mtnman
Good idea for a post Krusty! I'm surprised by how often I see people just give up and auger in after losing a wingtip. Of course, maybe they lose control, or don't want to rtb damaged, but still...
I find I can rtb safely w/o a wingtip 19 out of 20 tries with my F4U, which I believe is easier than in the 190.
1) i've done this in the spit V, and the spit IX, and a hurri2c it's also VERY easy to do in a 38 with the 2 engines
My standard method is to exit the fight, and fast! I sometimes "fake" loss of control so my opponent will leave me alone. As I exit the fight I trim aileron all the way away from the damaged side, and sometimes need a bit of rudder too. I often (always?) need to hold rudder as well. W/O manual trimming landing is REALLY tough w/o a wingtip.
On approach, I get my gear down, and I only drop a few notches of flaps (2 in the hog). With the flaps down I can re-trim aileron and rudder back closer to normal. I keep a fair amont of throttle on all the way down, and keep my speed higher than normal. I try to set up my turn onto final so I can turn AWAY from the damaged wing.
I normally land gear-down, but if the landing is going bad, and I'm lined up on the runway I sometimes belly slide.
Landing on the CV helps too, if you have a plane with a tailhook. :^)
MtnMan
Krusty- Saber and I will be going through Denver (picking my brother up at the airport in early September. We'll be heading down to Pagosa Springs for muzzleloader elk. If things work out, maybe meet up with you for a brew?
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Baldeagl, I DARE you to try landing a A6m with a missing wingtip.
Or a Hurricaine, or even a early spitfire, ie spit 1 or 5.
Now try it with a Yak, La7, 190, or pony.
HUGE difference between planes, esp between fast ones and slow ones.
But don't take my word for it. Test it for yourself.
I've landed many a Spit V missing wing parts. I flew Spit V's as my primary ride one camp and as reckless as I am sometimes I got a lot of practice :)
I've also tried it many a time in 190's just because I fly them a lot and I have a lot of trouble with them on final approach. Most often they want to snap roll on me when I slow down and there's nothing I can do to stop it.
I've never even gotten a C.205 to fly after losing wing parts.
On the other hand I've stayed out trying to get kills in Spit XVI's and Yak-9U's missing wing parts (although obviously numbers were in my favor).
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Keep in mind any examples prior to 2.6 are moot. The code was redone.
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Trim makes a big difference with getting 190s down safely.
When you lose the wing, jump on the aileron trim and and a suitable amount of rudder (be gentle).
I also find that landing with wing-tips missing is much easier if you can set up your landing approach from quite a bit higher than usual. Slow right down, get your gear out and drop flaps a couple of K above the field. That way, you can sort yourself out and see how your aircraft will behave and still have room to recover.
Then it's a simple matter of edging down, staying slow enough to keep gear down and stable..... and putting it rubber side down.
The key to this is TRIM TRIM TRIM. 262s.... 190s.... 109s.... trim it and it will fly, regardless of wing-tips missing.
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bah! you noobs!!11!one
back last year i landed a spitV on a CV with no elevators at all, with wheels down too! blipping the throttle up and down to decend slowly onto the deck. i got to the carrier by contantly rolling over and over to go in a straight and level direction!
yes! i am king! woot!
go batfink!
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I've landed many planes with 1/2 a wingtip. Things to think about:
Immediate damage check...Flaps work? If they do you will prolly get her on the rwy.
Trim. Aileron and rudder. use it. Trim max if you have to.
Rudders. You can stand on it if you must.
Throttle management. Prop torque. Which wing is missing. If you pump throttle you can roll her level. Easy on the throttle. Don't slam it on and off.
Pitch. Experiment with pitch. Nose down and she levels out. Nose up and she wants to roll. Reason torgue and slowing.
At 300 mph she will pretty much fly strait and lvl. Too much rudder and she wants to do a large left or right turn. Too little and she wants to roll over.
Plan a long final, strait in approach. Hit esc and pull up your map. Look at the runway configuration. North/South? Plan a gentle intercept 5-10 miles out so you can establish a very gentle decent while slowing.
If you have no enemy in the area plan to level as soon as you get established on your final approach course.
Let the plane slow while concentrating on keeping her upright. As soon as you can get flaps down start extending them and continue to do so until they are full down. You may have to retrim her cause she'll be much easier to fly when the flaps are out.
Begin a gentle approach to the numbers by easing throttle and maintain approx 150 mph.
Stick movements should be gentle no yanking and banking.
You will be still using some rudder. Let her slip in but maintain runway alignment.
As you clear the numbers ease rudder and let her settle on the runway. As you get closer to the runway
ground effect and full flaps will help you maintain roll control.
If you end up a smoking hole a 1/4 mile off the end of the runway it wasn't for lack of trying. If you land those 6 kills then WOOOOO HOOOOO! WTG!
Hope this helps.
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Nice job Krusty.
I'm 0-2 landing the 190A5 mising half a wing.
My buddy tried night before last and did the same thing...Boom!
Both times for me I was unable to get my speed below 200 and I was unable to arrest my descent rate once I got it going down. I noticed you used flaps and gear...interesting. I was afraid to drop gear and was too fast to drop flaps.
when did you cut your engine in that film? I thought it was while you were still over the mountain. I didn't try that either.
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I'm not possitive on this one, but I believe that if you touch the ground at 150 mph or above you will die for sure. Make sure your slower than that.
I never cut my engine when I land damaged. I think that's a bad idea because if you need a burst of throttle it will take too long to start the engine etc. I just back my throttle off.
If you mean reduce throttle when you say "cut", I do that.
Without dropping flaps I would say your chances of landing missing a wingtip are about 1 in 99000. Fairly poor by my standards. You need to plan WAY ahead. Slow down early, and get a notch or two of flaps out. Then re-trim, and use your throttle as needed to maintain speed.
Good luck!
MtnMan
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"cut throttle" means to throttle back, "kill throttle" means to stop the engine.
I started cutting back around when I nosed up over the hill. I had to slow down enough to get my flaps out (mtnman is right on that, you need flaps or you can't do it). 190 engine is strong enough to keep you fast even in nose up orientation, so I had to throttle back (this also reduced torque a bit). You want to do flaps before you get low. That way you can recover if you lose control and try again. That's why I stayed about 3k or so when trying to get them out. Once they were down I had a lot more control. I started losing it juuuuuust as I touched down, but luckily my wheels touched dirt at the right moment and I landed instead of crashed. In hindsight I think I might have come in a bit smoother if I could do it over.