Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FBplmmr on August 01, 2007, 07:03:32 PM
-
check the news-- a bridge collapsed in Minneapolis.
-
YIKES!
google maps of the part that failed:
http://maps.google.com/maps?client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&channel=s&q=&ll=44.979386,-93.2447&spn=0.00359,0.010815&t=k&z=17&om=1
We just were calling our Minneapolis terminal to make sure all our trucks got back in one piece, and not stuck in the mess.
I actually hear about this about 45 min ago, but have been working on other stuff so I couldn't post about it.
-
the brooklyn bridge is over 100 years old and still working, there were no computers around when it was built.
-
Classy.
-
Sometimes I wish I wasn't studying this right now. It's scary to think what a few errors in structural calculations along with construction field concessions can add up to.
Ignorance is bliss.
-
They've been talking about the same thing for an hour...
I need newer news :furious
-
I drove across that bridge one week ago. :confused:
-
It has been all over the news here in Minnesota. So far there are a few fatalities reported but the numbers vary.
Most reports indicate that despite the fact that it was rush hour that relatively few cars were on it when it collapsed. The bridge was undergoing some cosmetic repairs, according to all reports it was just the concrete deck that was being repaired, along with the updating of some of the lighting and the addition of a deicing system.
Considering that on a normal day this bridge carries 150,000 cars it is amazing that there weren't more cars on the bridge. Some reports say as few as 50-60. Add to this the fact that the Twins play tonight just a few blocks away, and that this bridge is a major access point to the stadium, and that it was near the end of rush hour it is amazing that that number wasn't in the hundreds.
Our prayers and thoughts go out to all of the families affected by this, but our gratitude also to all of those men and women who rushed to the scene.
-
Very sad. May be time to take a close look at a few thousand other bridges around the country.
-
There is now a video out of the collapse. Tis a very sad thing. Should never have happened.
-
Originally posted by McFarland
There is now a video out of the collapse. Tis a very sad thing. Should never have happened.
Here's the link:
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=3850
Also, the death count has been lowered from 7 to 4. That's good.
Personally I always overestimate deaths in these kinds of things. It would be great if the scuba divers found no one else... I doubt it though.
-
That isn't the video I saw, the one I saw was a view from the side. You could actually see a car buckle and fold up on itself as a piece broke. I can't seem to find it, though.
-
It appears that something gave out on the near side of the breitbart video. Very hard to tell without looking, but it looks like a complete shearing of the connections at a column.
If so, that's very poor engineering. Or possibly very poor weather protection.
But I can't tell without further look.
-
This spring there was an investigative report on the condition of roads and bridges in Minnesota, many of them are in disrepair. There has been much ado about road conditions for a long time out here but nothing's been done about it, it just gets turned into the all too common partisan themed soundbyte.
I look forward to the engineers finding the cause of the collapse. I can't believe that anyone would ignore telltale signs on this particular bridge. Ely, Denison, maybe, but 35W? that's ridiculous.
-
Hi Red Tail,
Originally posted by Red Tail 444
This spring there was an investigative report on the condition of roads and bridges in Minnesota, many of them are in disrepair. There has been much ado about road conditions for a long time out here but nothing's been done about it, it just gets turned into the all too common partisan themed soundbyte.
You don't need to be a prophet to see money pouring from on high into bridge safety now. It's the same process that produced strict life-boat regs after the Titanic sank.
I also see lawsuits coming, many, many lawsuits....
-
Sadly, bridge collapses on federal highways is nothing new. There is one about every 3-5 years. They usually find design flaw and poor maintenence as the causes.
It was sheer luck that the death toll was not higher.
-
Originally posted by rpm
Sadly, bridge collapses on federal highways is nothing new. There is one about every 3-5 years. They usually find design flaw and poor maintenence as the causes.
It was sheer luck that the death toll was not higher.
I'm guessing it will be 25-50 by the time its all done and said. An hour and a half earlier, and it could have been real ugly, (Rush hour, Twins game...)
-
Montreal bridge collapse last year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Overpass_collapse
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/10/01/overpass-collapse.html
-
Originally posted by john9001
the brooklyn bridge is over 100 years old and still working, there were no computers around when it was built.
What a STUPID post.
Hey screw Brooklyn and their Bridge... The Bridge sux and so does Brooklyn.
Now back to the Thread as it was Originally posted assshat.
BTW yer in FloriDUH praising the Brooklyn Bridge? Stupid Kid.
My heart goes out to all that were injured/died in this tragety. May the Families find comfort and strength during these times.
Prayers,
Mac
-
Originally posted by rpm
Sadly, bridge collapses on federal highways is nothing new. There is one about every 3-5 years. They usually find design flaw and poor maintenance as the causes.
It was sheer luck that the death toll was not higher.
And instances like this will probably just get more common as repairs have been deferred so often the past couple decades. Funding has been lacking for the United States infrastructure for a very long time. Not just bridges and roadways, but dams, the electrical grid, water systems, waste treatment plants, levies.
Even the big hi-way spending bill passed last years seems to herald more "new construction" than much needed repairs to old infrastructure.
Crumbling infrastructure next to a crumbling education system that won't turn out the needed engineers to deal with the first problem. But, of course, lawyers we've got no shortage of.
-
Originally posted by eskimo2
Also, the death count has been lowered from 7 to 4. That's good.
Personally I always overestimate deaths in these kinds of things. It would be great if the scuba divers found no one else... I doubt it though.
they say there is still 20-30 missing.
-
Originally posted by AWMac
What a STUPID post.
Hey screw Brooklyn and their Bridge... The Bridge sux and so does Brooklyn.
Now back to the Thread as it was Originally posted assshat.
BTW yer in FloriDUH praising the Brooklyn Bridge? Stupid Kid.
Mac
up yours mac, if they still built bridges like that one, the bridges would not be falling down and killing people all the time.:mad:
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Sometimes I wish I wasn't studying this right now. It's scary to think what a few errors in structural calculations along with construction field concessions can add up to.
I would put over half a century of winter salt from the roadbed leaching through joints in a span higher on the list of possible causes than errors in structural calculations. But hey, what would I know? You're the student who knows everything.
-
I now see why lazs gets so worked up by global warming.
The National Safety Board is recommending a review of the nation's infrastructure and estimate the costs of fixing everything up in the trillions.
The day before everything was fine.
THE COUNTRY IS COLLASPING>>>EVERYONE RUUUUUUN!
-
Originally posted by Rolex
I would put over half a century of winter salt from the roadbed leaching through joints in a span higher on the list of possible causes than errors in structural calculations.
E = MC2 :D tis all I know...
-
There are obviously a lot that no one know and it looks to be a few months before we do. To jump to any conclusions is foolish.
There was an inspection of this bridge just a few years back and it was found to be "structurally deficient." Taken literally it sounds horrible, but in reality it means that this bridge was found to be healthy, but in need or renovation within the next few years, anc MnDOT had this bridge slated for renovation either next year or the following at latest.
Having read the report online, it is clear that there were no signs at that time to indicate that a structural failure of this magnitude could occur. The life expectancy of this bridge was 70 years, which means that it was projected to last another 30. On a scale of 120, this bridge scored 50, but i've heard a few engineers say that that is a scewed number since only a brand new bridge built to modern standards could hope to achieve that, and that this bridge when brand new still may have been "structurally deficient" on the modern scale. And even though Minnesota uses a lot of chloride deicers in winter, we rank 3rd in the country for bridge safety and repair, and given this bridges location and importance it was look after very closely.
[rant]
The most appalling thing, aside from the tragedy itself, is how local politicians are using this as a political weapon. The rescue crews were still pulling live people from the water when the first senator got on TV and did the "see i told you so" dance. He didn't offer any condolences or even a word of regret, just a scathing accusation at the other party for not raising gas taxes here.
[/end rant]
-
The folks on the ground haven't even had a chance to look at the situation yet and as usual the AH armchair experts have already determined the cause. :rolleyes:
Leave it to the professionals. Innocent people died in this situation. The cause will be determined and hopefully it will result in doing something to similar bridges to prevent it happening again.
-
Originally posted by Rolex
I would put over half a century of winter salt from the roadbed leaching through joints in a span higher on the list of possible causes than errors in structural calculations. But hey, what would I know? You're the student who knows everything.
I already said that.
It appears that something gave out on the near side of the breitbart video. Very hard to tell without looking, but it looks like a complete shearing of the connections at a column.
If so, that's very poor engineering. Or possibly very poor weather protection.
But I can't tell without further look.
You were in such a rush to make me look like an ass, that you ended up looking like one yourself.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
The folks on the ground haven't even had a chance to look at the situation yet and as usual the AH armchair experts have already determined the cause. :rolleyes:
amen!
-
Crazy. I was just there a day before it happened and went over that part of the bridge twice. Once in a 45 ft. Prevost, and another time on my bike.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
The folks on the ground haven't even had a chance to look at the situation yet and as usual the AH armchair experts have already determined the cause.
lol! nice
-
Within this article related to the recent bridge collapse in Minneapolis, the FBI has included some good reminders about scams and e-mail attempts to solicit money from individuals.
FBI Statement On Minneapolis Bridge Collapse (http://www.ic3.gov/media/2007/070802.htm)
Thu, 2 Aug 2007 15:00:00 -0500
Regards,
-
What happened is extremely sad and tragic, and my heart goes out to all involved...
However, the news is taking it a little far. I havent been able to turn on any cable news station since this has happened without seeing the same aerial picture of the bridge, and retarded reporters all saying the same thing....
This post has nothing to do with the tragedy, more of how tragic it us about our media.
-
Originally posted by Rolex
I would put over half a century of winter salt from the roadbed leaching through joints in a span higher on the list of possible causes than errors in structural calculations. But hey, what would I know? You're the student who knows everything.
I'd be really interested in reading the final report. I'm not a trained structural engineer but circumstances have forced me to learn a LOT about it. Now I find the subject fascinating.
My heart goes out to the families of the people who were lost.
PS lasersailor184
what kind of engineering are you studying?
-
Originally posted by Dichotomy
I'd be really interested in reading the final report. I'm not a trained structural engineer but circumstances have forced me to learn a LOT about it. Now I find the subject fascinating.
My heart goes out to the families of the people who were lost.
PS lasersailor184
what kind of engineering are you studying?
Architectural Engineering. I have roughly a semester and a half worth of structural analysis, and structural design under my belt. But I've decided not to pursue structural engineering.
I'd be interested in seeing the second video of the collapse. From what I can guess at from the first video, it appears that the bridge sheered off at the close end of the bridge. This is odd because more often then not structures' sheer strength is multiples higher (3-5x) then the standard sheer stress encountered.
Basically, if it was a moment failure, meaning the bending failure, it would have snapped in the middle where the moment stress is the highest. But again, from what I can see from the video, it doesn't snap in the middle.
-
ya I've seen the video too and I agree that it should have failed at it's weakest point
A little background here I've been in the light pole and cell tower business for the past 12 years. When I hired on with my current employer they didn't have any ties to any engineers. I have a lot of ties to engineers so bam they buy me a design program and now I design light poles. Remember that when you drive down the highway or go to a sporting event and be afraid ;)
I'm by no means an expert in bridge design but being exposed to AASHTO in all of its variations, UBC, CBC, FBC, etc.. on a day to day basis you tend to pick a few things up.
I'm wondering if the bridge might have had a low grade harmonic vibration in it that wasn't picked up during inspections that might have led to catastrophic failure.
I'm almost certain there's a certified structural enginerd or two on this board that might have an opinion on this.
You sure you don't want to do structural engineering? Get about 30 seals and you can make bank sitting on your butt stamping the work I do :D
-
Well, if it was a collapse due to sheer stresses, then it did collapse at the weakest point. Shear stresses are constant from column to column, assuming the weight is spread out evenly. It would take a really heavy point load or two for this assumption to not stand for something the size of the bridge. These point loads would be a lot heavier then anything on the road.
The harmonic theory could be a good one. The correct loading and just the exactly right speed of cars driving over could over load any connections that may be rusted out from weathering. But then my experiments with physical harmonics is lacking compared to experience with electrical harmonics.
The structural part wasn't so bad, but I can hardly sit still. Working constantly at a desk drives me crazy.
-
Originally posted by Dichotomy
ya I've seen the video too and I agree that it should have failed at it's weakest point
I can say that the weakest point failure mode is a certainty, knowing nothing else about the bridge.
I'm almost certain there's a certified structural enginerd or two on this board that might have an opinion on this.
I am a registered mechanical engineer, but because I have not seen the prints and reviewed the as builts or the maintenance records, I have no professional opinion on this.
Perhaps a few months and much data and someone somewhere may come up with the answer. Any opinion given in the first few days is quite probably incorrect.
-
I should have stated 'theoretical' weakest point. From the film it doesn't look like it initially failed at midpoint which is, assumption on my part, where the load stresses are the greatest.
I agree holdin that it's all uninformed conjecture at this point but it never hurts to move the brain cells around. Especially my besotten ones ;)
Laser.. wait till it hurts to get up and you might change your mind :lol
-
Would be safe to assume all the 'missing' were lost, but thankfully, the original estimate of '20 missing' has been downgraded. Could have been FAR worse
blame....looks like a 'Katrina II' is in the brewing
Senator Patty Murray said that Bush has not supported Democrat efforts to increase spending on critical infrastructure....
...A state senator blamed the previous republican governor for not supporting tax increases (though Minnesota had a tax surplus of some 2 billion)--didn't seem to stop the projects for the new stadiums...
CNN's Jack Cafferty said if we weren't spending all this money in Iraq these people wouldn't have died....
Modern human nature at work here---SOMEtimes bad watermelon happens to good people, it doesn't ALways have to be somebody's fault
-
Originally posted by bj229r
Would be safe to assume all the 'missing' were lost, but thankfully, the original estimate of '20 missing' has been downgraded. Could have been FAR worse
blame....looks like a 'Katrina II' is in the brewing
...A state senator blamed the previous republican governor for not supporting tax increases (though Minnesota had a tax surplus of some 2 billion)--didn't seem to stop the projects for the new stadiums...
CNN's Jack Cafferty said if we weren't spending all this money in Iraq these people wouldn't have died....
Modern human nature at work here---SOMEtimes bad watermelon happens to good people, it doesn't ALways have to be somebody's fault
Like that one Southpark episode. Something akin to: "Beaverton only has a population of 8,000 people, however we are REPORTING that casualties are in the millions."
-
Originally posted by bj229r
Would be safe to assume all the 'missing' were lost, but thankfully, the original estimate of '20 missing' has been downgraded. Could have been FAR worse
blame....looks like a 'Katrina II' is in the brewing
...A state senator blamed the previous republican governor for not supporting tax increases (though Minnesota had a tax surplus of some 2 billion)--didn't seem to stop the projects for the new stadiums...
CNN's Jack Cafferty said if we weren't spending all this money in Iraq these people wouldn't have died....
Modern human nature at work here---SOMEtimes bad watermelon happens to good people, it doesn't ALways have to be somebody's fault
Yeah but this is America here. Everything bad that happens is SOMEONES fault. Most of the time not even the fault of the person that did something wrong. FOX news pissed me off the other night. Flipped channels and there they were with a huge banner on the TV, "Bridge collapse...Who's to BLAME?" This was less than 24 hours after the event. Mainstream media really pisses me off when stuff like this happens.
-
I'm guessing here but I'm going to step out on the plank and make a prediction.
Bridge was examined 2 years ago for stress cracking, found some, but didn't think it was bad enough to do anything about it.
Take a stress crack which opens the steel to the elements ie no paint coatings to prevent rust. Add in a highly corrosive winter enviorment with all the salt/chloride they use on the roads and you have a bridge beam thats going to fail. Question is when not if, and where.
Video I saw showed one side bumper to bumper for 2 lanes maxing out the load the bridge can carry. The beam that did go first will be found to be in a place almost impossible to inspect well.
-
Some news: link (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/us/09cnd-bridge.html?ei=5065&en=dfa3aa04d82c27f4&ex=1187236800&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print)
Potential Flaw Is Found in Design of Fallen Bridge
By MONICA DAVEY and MATTHEW L. WALD
MINNEAPOLIS, Aug. 8 — Investigators have found what may be a design flaw in the bridge that collapsed here a week ago, in the steel parts that connect girders, raising safety concerns for other bridges around the country, federal officials said today.
The Federal Highway Administration swiftly responded by urging all states to take extra care with how much weight they place on bridges when sending construction crews to work on bridges. Crews were doing work on the deck of the Interstate 35W bridge when it gave way, hurling rush-hour traffic into the Mississippi River and killing at least five people.
The National Transportation Safety Board’s investigation is months from completion, and officials in Washington said they were still working to confirm the design flaw in the so-called gusset plates and what, if any, role it had in the collapse.
Still, in making public their suspicion about a flaw, the investigators were signaling they consider it a potentially crucial discovery and also a safety concern for other bridges around the country. Gusset plates are used in the construction of many bridges, not just those with a similar design to the one here.
“Given the questions being raised by the N.T.S.B., it is vital that states remain mindful of the extra weight construction projects place on bridges,” Secretary of Transportation Mary E. Peters said in a statement issued late today.
Concerns about the plates emerged not from the waters of the Mississippi River here, where workers have only begun to remove cars and the wreckage with cranes, but from scrutiny of the vast design records related to the steel truss-type bridge.
In Minneapolis, state transportation department officials seemed stunned by the sudden focus on the bridge’s gusset plates, which are the steel connectors used to hold together the girders on the truss of a bridge. On this bridge, completed in 1967, there would have been hundreds of them, officials here said.
egads, this could mean that new taxes arent in order
-
Yes, everyone is jumping on the blame everyone bandwagon. I can't say that I was surprised when NPR blamed little susie that lives down my street.
Can't say that I've dealt with gusset plates at all. Most of the trusses that we use are premade. The only thing I can think of would be tear out or buckling due to the plate being too thin.