Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Uriel on August 04, 2007, 03:06:45 AM
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I understand that some people love the good old furball, but there is a whole lot of furball and not enough war. Bombing is what wins wars.
Please either:
A. let bombers spend their perk points on fighters
B. add perk points for flying and fighting at real war alts.. like 20k
C. create an arena that encourages high alts perhaps centalized high alt bases so we dont have to climb for an hour in a bomber
the dogfight should happen at 15-25 k, it happens at 5
you have a fighter town, you have a tanker town, where is bomber town?
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Originally posted by Uriel
I understand that some people love the good old furball, but there is a whole lot of furball and not enough war. Bombing is what wins wars.
Please either:
A. let bombers spend their perk points on fighters
B. add perk points for flying and fighting at real war alts.. like 20k
C. create an arena that encourages high alts perhaps centalized high alt bases so we dont have to climb for an hour in a bomber
the dogfight should happen at 15-25 k, it happens at 5
you have a fighter town, you have a tanker town, where is bomber town?
im a bomber "pilot" and i say no to all of these things.
A: whats the point in this?
B: why? the bonus for flying that height is increased survival rate
C: silly idea, seperating game play types. Also high alt bases are a REAL pain to take off from in bombers.... plus a "real" bomber pilot wouldnt care about climbing to 20k, it is afterall part of the planning/fun of it.
Only thing bomber perks should be used for is:
A: bigger ord (but thats been refused, and the 4000lber is the biggest we gona get)
B: more buffs in your formation.
C: late war rides like the AR234 or the fast Mossie Bomber or B29 (and i dont think the B29 belongs in this game)
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Originally posted by Anyone
im a bomber "pilot" and i say no to all of these things.
Agreed.
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Originally posted by Uriel
snip
Hmm you could just milk EW/MW. Ohh wait that's already going on.
Never mind.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Uriel
I understand that some people love the good old furball, but there is a whole lot of furball and not enough war. Bombing is what wins wars.
Please either:
A. let bombers spend their perk points on fighters
B. add perk points for flying and fighting at real war alts.. like 20k
C. create an arena that encourages high alts perhaps centalized high alt bases so we dont have to climb for an hour in a bomber
the dogfight should happen at 15-25 k, it happens at 5
you have a fighter town, you have a tanker town, where is bomber town?
NOOB
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Originally posted by Uriel
:cry
Spend your fighter perks on fighters. If you don't fly fighters, too damn bad.
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I love bombing from 20-30K although it is a pain to get that high so i just go afk. However i don't agree with this either.
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Let me spend my bomber perks on a UBER bomber like, maybe, the 38K?
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While I disagree he does bring up a valid point in that there needs to be something to use bomber perks on.
I've been flying almost nothing but AR234's while bombing for three camps now and I've only lost 2, both to puffy ack while my buff perks keep going up.
I also saw in another thread that NHawk said airfields had to be at 5 or 6K max to be accepted by HTC (he said you couldn't get loaded buffs off a higher field) although on Trinity there used to be those bases in the back corners that were 8K+ that I always used to take off from with Lancs.
It would be nice to have another map with bases that high for bomb runs.
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Originally posted by Uriel
I understand that some people love the good old furball, but there is a whole lot of furball and not enough war. Bombing is what wins wars.
Please either:
A. let bombers spend their perk points on fighters
B. add perk points for flying and fighting at real war alts.. like 20k
C. create an arena that encourages high alts perhaps centalized high alt bases so we dont have to climb for an hour in a bomber
the dogfight should happen at 15-25 k, it happens at 5
you have a fighter town, you have a tanker town, where is bomber town?
I thought TT and any base where a good furball was going on at WAS "bomber town"?
Your "A" would just encourage MORE milkrunning in EW/MW (not a big problem) and MORE suicidal dive buffs and bomb and bails (which would be) to earn perk points to use in fighter. Not a good idea.
Your "B" would be difficult to implement, if I understand the code for scoring correctly. And Anyone is correct; flying higher equates to your own safety in completing the mission.
Your "C" equates to another milkrunning arena like EW and MW are now. Population is fragmented now, that would be just more of the same. And what bombers are you taking to what altitude that it takes you an hour to get to altitude? Lancs at 30k? Full fuel loads? Start a flight, load 25 to 50% fuel, and go afk to do something else then.
Bomber pilots do need another perk point sink than the Ar234, but it doesn't look like we are going to get it in the foreseeable future. The bombers often offered as perk-worthy buffs include the Mosquito B.Mk XVI with drones, the A-26B and A-26C Invader, the He-177 Greif, and the B-29. The B-29 carries too much ord, too high, and too fast and would upset game balance with it's capabilities, so it's not a real option as a game addition despite many calls for it.
Perks for additional drones also has been brought up, as Anyone stated. The ability to purchase up to 3 additional drones is one I prefer, but game code is currently limited to pilot's plane and 3 drones (and we only get two of them).
A box of 3 planes across, two planes deep, and rear group slightly offset would be great against strat factories. But, those additional drones would have to cost what an Arado does now to prevent overuse.
Personally, since the arena split, additional troop strats, and smaller maps, I've not flown heavy bombers all that often any more. I used to fly 17's over bases to kill strats, and I used to take out strat factories in the old zones, but it just does not have the impact now that it did then it seems. Smaller arena population has resulted in less overall "strategic bombing" per arena by multiple buff drivers, that could compliment each others' efforts. Usually I just see buffs dropping hangars to cap a vulch or prevent defensive efforts.
Ki-67's vs CV's are my most common runs now.
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ONE could add the b29 but maKe it only available at a base near the HQ, but i would not add a nuke, cost about 100 perks each .
dhawk
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Originally posted by DarkHawk
ONE could add the b29 but maKe it only available at a base near the HQ, but i would not add a nuke, cost about 100 perks each .
dhawk
No - Not really. A B-29 could carry up to 20,000 lbs of ord (22,000 lbs for a maximum effort with Earthquake bombs) for a light fuel, short to mid range mission. That's up to 60,000 lbs of ord for a flight of 3 x B-29's, as compared to 42,000 lbs for a flight of Lancs. The B-29's also travel faster and higher than the Lanc which complicates interceptions. AND the B-29's had much better defensive fire than the Lancs.
That all adds up to a major game imbalance in regards to taking out HQ or a strat factory or a town or a large base. No game designer in their right mind is going to add something like that to the game that throws off game balance to such a high degree.
Also, what is the runway lengths in the game? I'm not sure how much runway a B-29 needed to operate with, but combat weights of B-29's are double those of the Lancs. I do know the runways at Tinian were 8,500 feet in length and the shortest runway used by a B-29 that I've come across so far was 4000' long (and the crew sunk the plane in the mud there, and there not near their maximum take off weight), and the emergency field at "Central Field" at Iwo Jima was extended to 8,500 feet for B-29 operations after it was captured. If modeled correctly, and loaded, could a B-29 even get into the air from the existing runways in the game? Or would a new base tile need to be made?
100 perks per B-29?.... pfts.... a few of us have a couple THOUSAND buff perks to spend. No great handicap that would be.
B-29 wishes will undoubtedly keep occurring in these forums as some buff drivers want the most uber of bombers to fly and dominate with.
It's just NEVER going to happen in relation to everything else now.
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The B-29 would be a welcomed addition to the game by many of us, but it is not needed as we have plenty of bombers already. Personally I dont care if we get the B-29 or not if Nukes aren't part of the package.
Allowing perks to be spent in other categories would be welcomed by me as I have loads of both Bomber and Vehicle perks, but HT has yet to even address that issue as it has come up in the past more than once.
Currently Bomber and Vehicle Perks are near useless and shall remain such for some time to come. Ar234s are fun and effective in limited roles, tigers have become run of the mill thanks to the over-modeled Firefly making GV perks nearly as useless as bomber perks.
Bombers already do play a large role in winning the "war".
Re: Encouraging High Alt fights; if you climb up there and fly around long enough, someone will more than likely spend the time to climb up to you and try to shoot ya down.
An idea I've had is to charge perks points to allow pilots to spawn in the air at various alts in various areas of their given base. I doubt such an option shall ever come to pass, but one can wish.
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According to Boeings website the B-17 actually had a 4,000 ft alt advantage over the B-29. (B-17 at 35,600 feet vs. B-29 at 31,850 feet)
The B-29 was 78 MPH faster though.
Its a shame that such a historically important bird isn't here. The lancaster had a ceiling of 24,500 but I have had them above 32K with bombs onboard lol.
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Originally posted by DarkHawk
ONE could add the b29 but maKe it only available at a base near the HQ, but i would not add a nuke, cost about 100 perks each .
dhawk
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/nookie.gif)
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/nookie.gif)
lol you beat me too it karaya :D
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HTC need perk 3-buffs formations, after that nobody will have problems with using bomber perks.
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Originally posted by Oleg:
HTC need perk 3-buffs formations, after that nobody will have problems with using bomber perks.
Agreed!
Maybe we can also have a perked dive bomber formation option. I mean these drones (on aircraft like Val, Stuka, Dauntless etc.) will maintain formation in a steep dive (or maybe change to a trail formation during a dive) and allow more effective dive bombing, whilst encouraging usage to these aircraft (reducing some hangar queens):rolleyes: .I am waiting to torp CVs in a formation of Kates (dont know why formations are not enabled on a bomber that needs them the most ::mad: ).
This ofcourse would only be useful, after neutering the heavy bomber's dive bombing abuse:o . My personal suggestion is that vertical speed should be within 100ft/min for successful bomb release from the heavy buffs.
Just a thought.:aok
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
According to Boeings website the B-17 actually had a 4,000 ft alt advantage over the B-29. (B-17 at 35,600 feet vs. B-29 at 31,850 feet)
The B-29 was 78 MPH faster though.
Its a shame that such a historically important bird isn't here. The lancaster had a ceiling of 24,500 but I have had them above 32K with bombs onboard lol.
The B-17's service ceiling was around 35k, but was rarely used over 25k.
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Originally posted by Oleg
HTC need perk 3-buffs formations, after that nobody will have problems with using bomber perks.
Nerfing the buffs does nothing but further reduce bomber use in the game. Take up a lone bomber sometime and see how effective you will be with it over a contested airfield.
Lone buff = cold meat.
Perk points are supposed to be a reward to players for doing well in order to take up better rides as they can afford. Using perks to purchase an additional 1 to 3 drones, to the standard 2, is a reward.
Requiring all drones have a perk price is a Nerf to the bombers across the board, or at the very least, just coming up with a perk sink for buff perks just to have a perk sink other than the Arado..... no benefit to the buff drivers at all.
Those that think buffs in formation are "too strong" are either using poor tactics, or picking the wrong planes, to go after the bombers. A patient buff hunter with proper plane and tactics usually has the edge. Two or more fighters working together can tear a formation apart.
Remember, during WWII, bomber operated in formations of 60 to 1,000 planes with escorts. In game, getting a mission together for bombers is difficult enough..... getting escorts for those buffs even harder still. The drones give buff drivers some chance against the good buff interceptors that are out there.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Those that think buffs in formation are "too strong" are either using poor tactics, or picking the wrong planes, to go after the bombers. A patient buff hunter with proper plane and tactics usually has the edge. Two or more fighters working together can tear a formation apart.
Remember, during WWII, bomber operated in formations of 60 to 1,000 planes with escorts. In game, getting a mission together for bombers is difficult enough..... getting escorts for those buffs even harder still. The drones give buff drivers some chance against the good buff interceptors that are out there.
From my experience, you are right, given a decent plane and using some tactics, bomber formations are not all that tough to take down. I like the idea of being able to purchase additional buffs. Some perks ord like napalm (which was used in WWII) would be great. Though I wonder how the game would account for fire since at present you can fly or drive thru fire with no ill effect.
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would napalm really do anything to gvs or hangers? I always thought of it as an anti-infantry weapon.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Those that think buffs in formation are "too strong" are either using poor tactics, or picking the wrong planes, to go after the bombers. A patient buff hunter with proper plane and tactics usually has the edge. Two or more fighters working together can tear a formation apart.
How well I know. I've been jumped by the best of them (right Simaril?:D )
However, they help me become a bettter gunner.
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I misread something or they trying to learn me how to intercept buffs? :huh
Perking formations must force ppl to fly buffs more historical - higher and with escort fighter(s) and decrease number of suicide bomber runs (which prevails at arenas right now).
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Originally posted by Uriel
I understand that some people love the good old furball, but there is a whole lot of furball and not enough war. Bombing is what wins wars.
Please either:
A. let bombers spend their perk points on fighters
B. add perk points for flying and fighting at real war alts.. like 20k
C. create an arena that encourages high alts perhaps centalized high alt bases so we dont have to climb for an hour in a bomber
the dogfight should happen at 15-25 k, it happens at 5
you have a fighter town, you have a tanker town, where is bomber town?
WTF?
Where do these ideas come from? I am at work and have been al night and even in my tired stuppor I see no need for any of this!
A).Bomber perks are for bombers, if they were not then you would just have generic perks.
B).I as well as most decent Buff pilots make our runs at 20K+ in alt, why do you need an incentive for survival?
C).Just why? Thats all I can say. You want to encourage Hi alt fights stay high and pick the low gus as they climb to you, eventually they will fly higher to try and intecept you. Besides they already split up the good ol' MA to is currently scattered state, why add another split? Unless your intent is another milker's paradise.
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Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
would napalm really do anything to gvs or hangers? I always thought of it as an anti-infantry weapon.
Having a run way that is engulfed in fire should make the taking off of aircraft nearly impossible due all that flamable fuel they carry. GV driving thru fire might survive but the crew more than likely would not.
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Originally posted by AAolds
Having a run way that is engulfed in fire should make the taking off of aircraft nearly impossible due all that flamable fuel they carry. GV driving thru fire might survive but the crew more than likely would not.
But none of that's coded into the game. You can go and sit in the very center of a fire forever in a GV right now.
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Originally posted by Oleg
I misread something or they trying to learn me how to intercept buffs? :huh
Perking formations must force ppl to fly buffs more historical - higher and with escort fighter(s) and decrease number of suicide bomber runs (which prevails at arenas right now).
Perking formations would just RESULT in bombers not being flown much. Getting coordinated team efforts in the War Arenas is hard now. Trying to herd a bunch of players together to run bomber missions "more historically" much more often than the scattered missions seen these days would be an impossible task. You won't force them to fly more historical..... you might force them to fly Jabos more, which have a chance of getting through solo more than a lone buff does.
Changing game mechanics in an attempt to get the players to do what you want them to do, rarely works as intended.
Also, remember, many high altitude buff drivers launch their mission, then go away from keyboard for a while as buff climb to altitude. How do you keep a formation of singleton's together that way? You don't.
I'll agree that there are many suicide bombers now, but that comes from not having anything other than the Arado to spend buff perk point on: no real incentive to land the bombers. The Arado is one of the least flown planes in the game, tour after tour. It's not a bad plane, just very limited in abilities in regards to the rest of the game, and not many pilots seem to like it.
If there were 1 or 2 other perk worthy bombers out there in the game, it might lower the number of bomb and bails.
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ted makes some great points. I love AR234 and fly it often, but I agree 100% that is it limited in its effective application--the payload it carries makes great for dar killin, town softening, scouting, and GV bombing....which takes practice and some luck to hit GVs with the AR234.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
But none of that's coded into the game. You can go and sit in the very center of a fire forever in a GV right now.
Currently you are 100% correct.
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Originally posted by AAolds
ted makes some great points. I love AR234 and fly it often, but I agree 100% that is it limited in its effective application--the payload it carries makes great for dar killin, town softening, scouting, and GV bombing....which takes practice and some luck to hit GVs with the AR234.
I use to use flights of 3 x Ar234's to hunt CV's with, but I found I prefer to use the Ki-67's in that role, as well as killing DAR, or Ord, at several fields. Only time I have lifted Ar234's in the last 6 months was to try and get back a CV for a port we held, but the other team had hidden well behind the lines before we retook that port.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
I use to use flights of 3 x Ar234's to hunt CV's with, but I found I prefer to use the Ki-67's in that role, as well as killing DAR, or Ord, at several fields. Only time I have lifted Ar234's in the last 6 months was to try and get back a CV for a port we held, but the other team had hidden well behind the lines before we retook that port.
I prefer the JU-88 for CV hunting, I have not had much luck using the AR234 for that, other than giving the 5 inch gunner some target practice :aok
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olds after discussing the ar234 drop with LYNX he gave me some pointers and now I can kill it from any angle everytime.
Bear69 used to do it alot and it always impressed me how he could nail it everytime going so fast.
It didnt take much practice. The only way a CV could possibly survive is if the guy in the ship turned it at the right time and you didnt have time to re-adjust. Most of the time they do it way too late because they dont see you and you've already dropped before any 5 incher gives gets close.
I would say an Ar234 drop for me is easier than level bombing it with lancs. Just takes too much time to get alt and way more cumbersome.
Bruv
~S~