Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Austox on August 07, 2007, 11:37:34 PM
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yay, 1st post!!!!
ok, so what do u guys think is the best prop plane on the game. I care mostly about menuverablilty, speed, and armor. I dont really car how much fuel or ammo because i usually play 8 player and most of the hosts boost ammo and fuel.
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F4U-4.
That should really say it all, but since you're likely to ask:
The F4U-4 takes all the good points of the Corsairs and improves on all of them.
She's one of the fastest props at all altitudes, with only a handful that will run her down, and even then the difference in speed is rarely significant. Acceleration is among the top ten. She won't out-sprint the La-7, Tempest or Spixteen, but the difference is only within a second or two.
Rate of climb is above average and certainly better than the 1-series F4Us. However while a number of fighters (Spit XVI and 109K particularly) may still catch her over an extended straight climb, VERY few aircraft will catch ANY Hog in a zoom climb, which the extra power in the -4 makes even more remarkable. Energy retention is among the best, and judging the E state of the Corsair is difficult. A Hog below you that you may think you have E on can become a Hog zooming into gun range before you can blink.
Corsairs in general are among the best in high-speed maneuverability. They're one of the few whose rate of roll and aileron authority IMPROVES with speed (P-51 being a notable challenger). Very few fighters will hang with the F4U in a high-speed fight, particularly involving roll. Learn how to handle Der Uberflappen (TM)! The Corsair's flaps are among the BEST in the game, and you can get the first two notches out at speeds as much as 50-100mph FASTER than most other fighters (first notch comes down at 250mph TAS). The F4U is among the most maneuverable ships in the game between 250-300mph, and above that range is perhaps the top tier, threatened only by the Mustang and 109K-4 in high-speed handling (the Dora only rivals F4U-4 in speed).
Corsairs are tough. IMO they're a bit weaker in some areas than they should be (the engine is made glass) but they're well protected and can take a good deal of fire to bring down. She can absorb a .50cal snapshot and keep flying, and it takes a LOT of .303 fire to put a dent in her (it sounds like a gentle spring rain plinking off the armor :D ). Cannon are the biggest threat, but the same can be said of almost any other aircraft.
That being said, it takes practice to get the most out of ANY F4U. She's not a jump in and land 20 kills the first time up ride. The F4U-4 also carries a hefty perk price (and for DAMN good reason. Guaranteed if the perks were removed every F4U you ran into would be a -4 or Charlie) so if you die it gets expensive.
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Originally posted by Saxman
F4U-4.
That should really say it all, but since you're likely to ask:
The F4U-4 takes all the good points of the Corsairs and improves on all of them.
She's one of the fastest props at all altitudes, with only a handful that will run her down, and even then the difference in speed is rarely significant. Acceleration is among the top ten. She won't out-sprint the La-7, Tempest or Spixteen, but the difference is only within a second or two.
Rate of climb is above average and certainly better than the 1-series F4Us. However while a number of fighters (Spit XVI and 109K particularly) may still catch her over an extended straight climb, VERY few aircraft will catch ANY Hog in a zoom climb, which the extra power in the -4 makes even more remarkable. Energy retention is among the best, and judging the E state of the Corsair is difficult. A Hog below you that you may think you have E on can become a Hog zooming into gun range before you can blink.
Corsairs in general are among the best in high-speed maneuverability. They're one of the few whose rate of roll and aileron authority IMPROVES with speed (P-51 being a notable challenger). Very few fighters will hang with the F4U in a high-speed fight, particularly involving roll. Learn how to handle Der Uberflappen (TM)! The Corsair's flaps are among the BEST in the game, and you can get the first two notches out at speeds as much as 50-100mph FASTER than most other fighters (first notch comes down at 250mph TAS). The F4U is among the most maneuverable ships in the game between 250-300mph, and above that range is perhaps the top tier, threatened only by the Mustang and 109K-4 in high-speed handling (the Dora only rivals F4U-4 in speed).
Corsairs are tough. IMO they're a bit weaker in some areas than they should be (the engine is made glass) but they're well protected and can take a good deal of fire to bring down. She can absorb a .50cal snapshot and keep flying, and it takes a LOT of .303 fire to put a dent in her (it sounds like a gentle spring rain plinking off the armor :D ). Cannon are the biggest threat, but the same can be said of almost any other aircraft.
That being said, it takes practice to get the most out of ANY F4U. She's not a jump in and land 20 kills the first time up ride. The F4U-4 also carries a hefty perk price (and for DAMN good reason. Guaranteed if the perks were removed every F4U you ran into would be a -4 or Charlie) so if you die it gets expensive.
What he said :D
Oh yeah and, was this not covered in an identical thread a month or so ago? :rofl
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perked: F4U-4
free: La-7
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Originally posted by Saxman
F4U-4.
She won't out-sprint the La-7, Tempest or Spixteen, but the difference is only within a second or two.
-4 is faster than spixteen down low. :)
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The F4U-4 (all the Hogs, for that matter) is faster than the Spixteen at ALL altitudes. However the Spit XVI has faster acceleration. So equal starting airspeeds the Spixteen has a short opportunity to catch the 4-Hog before the Corsair's higher top speed comes into play.
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Best dueller you mean? Because it depends upon the job.
And Perk or non-perk?
How does the F4U-4 rack up against the Spit XIV in a duel in the DA for instance?
And altitude?
Or all?
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The P-38J
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Originally posted by Angus
How does the F4U-4 rack up against the Spit XIV in a duel in the DA for instance?
And altitude?
Or all?
It spanks all spits at any alt If flown right.
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F4U-4 (perked) F4U-1 (unperked)
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The u4 can stop fast than a spit.
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Like Sax said, don't hop into a Corsair and assume you'll kick arse because, with all likeliness, you won't. It takes some time getting used to the flight model and then flying the aircraft correctly.
One thing that's very fun about the F4U is all the tools at your disposal. Slotted flaps, a massive rudder, a lot of weight and horsepower and even gear (which were actually designed as speed brakes in WWII) though some players really don't prefer to use speed brakes.
The thing that's good about the F4U is that they can dictate the fight. They are very maneuverable and a good pilot can often take Spitfires down (though really pro Spitfire pilots seem to dodge every attack) but if you miss a shot opportunity in the Corsair, you can just dive away and/or then zoom climb when the time is right. That said, try to pack some altitude... in the Main Arena, the competition often is much tougher than the 8 player arenas so you'll need about 15,000 feet. In the 8 player arena, I rarely see a player over 2,000 feet.
Edit: spelling, grammar. heheh.
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1. Tempest 2. La7 3. F4U-4
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at low altitudes the LA7 is up on the list
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My list
Complete Offence: Tempest, cannons are main factor
Offence with 1v1 capability: F4u4, would be my main ride but the 50's lack punch. Best all around plane in the game.
Defence and ash kicking: Spit 16, 1v1 or 5v1 base capping or base decapping..
You name it i can kill it with the 16
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Like Sax said, don't hop into a Corsair and assume you'll kick arse because, with all likeliness, you won't. It takes some time getting used to the flight model and then flying the aircraft correctly.
This is wrong.
The F4Us are the easiest fighters in the game to do well in. Every time I have tried one I am surprised again how easy it is compared to, say, a Spitfire.
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Originally posted by Karnak
This is wrong.
The F4Us are the easiest fighters in the game to do well in. Every time I have tried one I am surprised again how easy it is compared to, say, a Spitfire.
I think it has more to do with your own skill level vs the average Spit driver skill level.
F4U are far from being the easiest fighters in the game. They require a more experienced hand and a knowledge about their strenghts and weaknesses than the "point-n-shoot" planes.
Once adapted to them, they all are very capable, but no easy rides for a beginner.
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I'd have to agree with Karnak on this one. Ever since the airflow recoding, the F4us have been one of the easiest planes to fly. No vices. They outrun much of the planeset, outturn almost all of it, dive with the best, have a standard (fairly good) weapons package, and are tough as iron.
It's no longer the "status" plane it used to be. Before the airflow recode flying the corsair was like flying the mossie nowadays. It took skill. You knew this and so did the folks you shot down. Now? Any yahoo can land 5 kills easy (hell, I proved that many times! :D )
One thing I'd like to point out: Some of you seem to be under the impression that fastest = best. Bzzzzt, wrong! He was looking for the best package deal.
For the best package deal there are too many to choose from. I'd say narrow down your tastes a bit more. Do you have a favorite nationality? A favorite weapon (50cal vs 20mm)? Do you like a plane in history, but aren't sure what is similar-but-still-competitive? Too many variables to answer, because many planes are good in many areas.
If you like the corsair, might I also suggest the F6F? Good turn, climb, dive, speed, weapons, great durability, is a CV plane, can carry bombs/rockets/DTs.
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Sorry, but I have to continue to disagree with Karnak and Krusty. If I run into someone in a Hog who doesn't know how to handle her it's VERY obvious. Either they don't push enough and end up flying very flat, or try to push TOO hard, bleed themselves out of E and and get picked apart, or lose control and spin out giving up a free kill (I've been flying her almost exclusively and still have her get out from under me at times).
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The P-38G*
:)
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I agree with sax. The only way a corsair will work for a beginner or even a average pilot is to BnZ with it. If they don't know how to use the flaps in it when they get 240 or slower, they will constantly wingflop/wingdrop it and will get there butt handed to them. Spit/la7 and a few others are very forgiving unlike the corsair. The Corsair is a better then average- expert/ace pilot plane in order to use the full potential of all the tools that the corsair has to offer. Spit/la7 u basically fly on rails and doesn't stall out as easily as the Hogs in a knife fight.
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I think the best Prop plane in the game has to be the Yak-9T, because it's the only plane that is wrapped around the NS-37.
-Sik
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The last thnig i worry about when choosing my plane is armement unless intercepting bombers then i usually grab a 9T.
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Originally posted by PanzerIV
The last thnig i worry about when choosing my plane is armement unless intercepting bombers then i usually grab a 9T.
For intercepting Bombers, I'd rather have a Tampoon.
-Sik
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i use 190A8 mostly for anti bomber duty
1 pass i killed 2 B24s
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I killed a formation of b26's in 1 pass with my f4u-1. Came from the high 1:00 clock postion and shot right in the cockpit. Killed all 3 bombers instantly by pilot wound because when u killed 1 bomber, the other warp right where the lead bomber was but the bullets were still flying at him,lol.
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Originally posted by AKDogg
I killed a formation of b26's in 1 pass with my f4u-1. Came from the high 1:00 clock postion and shot right in the cockpit. Killed all 3 bombers instantly by pilot wound because when u killed 1 bomber, the other warp right where the lead bomber was but the bullets were still flying at him,lol.
Was there and it was one of the funniest things I have seen in the game to this day... :rofl
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Krusty does make a very good point in terms of choosing an aircraft based on what YOU like.
Too many a time have I seen people hop into a plane because 'their friends said so' or because they heard that 'it was the best' yet they're really not having fun. Take a moment to choose what you like, not based on the game members' opinions but YOURS and yours alone. If you like it, stick with it, and don't give up.
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What i did back when i first started in the game was to fly the hole plane set. Start at the top with the zeke land two kills in it and move down. In some planes it was a task. If i remember correctly the p40b gave me all kinds of problems, landing two kills in that pos.
Once every 6 months i do the hole set but today landing two kills is not much of a task like it was back when i first started. The p40b is still a pos..
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Originally posted by AKDogg
It spanks all spits at any alt If flown right.
Sure does.
As for the perk cost, if you pay attention and are smart enough to extend, or rtb when the time's right, you don't need to worry about perk cost. I have no truk landing safely and not seeing my name "in lights"
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Originally posted by AKDogg
It spanks all spits at any alt If flown right.
Try my spit 16 in the DA.
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Originally posted by AKDogg
It spanks all spits at any alt If flown right.
:rofl
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Originally posted by AKDogg
It spanks all spits at any alt If flown right.
Dogg you're going to have to show me what I'm doing wrong because spits still give me fits.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Krusty does make a very good point in terms of choosing an aircraft based on what YOU like.
I think that's probably the best advice of all in here.
When I started AW, I was damn near exclusively a Hog pilot in RR PAC. That was a tough row to hoe right there. And it had nothing to do with how good or bad the plane was in relation to the other planes in the game: It was what I wanted to fly. I got my bellybutton handed to me repeatedly lol.
And just like how Panzer says the last thing he looks for in a plane is the Armament... that's the FIRST thing I look for. Different strokes and all that. I personally believe that the Yak-9T is the best plane in the set by virtue of having the best gun (personal opinion obviously). Now, if we had a Yak-9UT... sigh.
-Sik
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The key is to keep the fight fast, where the F4U has every advantage, or at least in a speed range where the F4U can use its flaps but the Spit can't (first notch in the F4U can be dropped at 250mph TAS). Lufberry is dicey so try to stay out of it. If the Spit flat breaks, or tries to break nose-low go nose-high instead (and I mean HIGH. hold your vertical extension longer than you would with a pure pursuit roll or high-yo yo). A notch of flaps with inside rudder to help swing the nose around will generally drop you right back down on his tail in these circumstances. This also works if he tries to pull you into a rolling scissors: Don't immediately follow his downward break. Keep extending up, keep him in view, then use the Hog's superior roll and strong rudder authority to flip over on his six (the Spit will likely have either lost visual on you, or will think you weren't sucked into the rolling scissors and will abandon it to try something else). Keep plenty of altitude to work with, so if things go bad you can nose down and dive out.
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Originally posted by AKDogg
I agree with sax. The only way a corsair will work for a beginner or even a average pilot is to BnZ with it. If they don't know how to use the flaps in it when they get 240 or slower, they will constantly wingflop/wingdrop it and will get there butt handed to them. Spit/la7 and a few others are very forgiving unlike the corsair. The Corsair is a better then average- expert/ace pilot plane in order to use the full potential of all the tools that the corsair has to offer. Spit/la7 u basically fly on rails and doesn't stall out as easily as the Hogs in a knife fight.
Agreed, but at the same time, (and I'm sure you know), once you figure out the edge of the Corsair, the thing rides on rails too.
It's a fine line, but with rudder usage especially, you can have complete stability until you *don't* want it, and then you still have great command of just which way you're flopping.
Then again, every time I take a few months off, I have to spend a few weeks/months getting back to that point in a Corsair... I find I can do just as well in a La7 with 3 month's practice or 3 day's.
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Originally posted by FX1
Try my spit 16 in the DA.
Having fought both of you in the MA, I'd say that'd be a great series of films.
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Originally posted by Saxman
The key is to keep the fight fast, where the F4U has every advantage, or at least in a speed range where the F4U can use its flaps but the Spit can't (first notch in the F4U can be dropped at 250mph TAS). Lufberry is dicey so try to stay out of it. If the Spit flat breaks, or tries to break nose-low go nose-high instead (and I mean HIGH. hold your vertical extension longer than you would with a pure pursuit roll or high-yo yo). A notch of flaps with inside rudder to help swing the nose around will generally drop you right back down on his tail in these circumstances. This also works if he tries to pull you into a rolling scissors: Don't immediately follow his downward break. Keep extending up, keep him in view, then use the Hog's superior roll and strong rudder authority to flip over on his six (the Spit will likely have either lost visual on you, or will think you weren't sucked into the rolling scissors and will abandon it to try something else). Keep plenty of altitude to work with, so if things go bad you can nose down and dive out.
Please dont get offended by this, but you are kiding right? Equal E states equal pilots and you will try what you described Vs a Spit 9 for example? It will eat you alive. Not to mention your assumption of him losing you because you went nose up :rofl
Don't confuse killing newbes with some magic powers of an airplane. BTW, the F4U turns extremly good. Good nuff to stay with the spit for a few turns but you try what you described, you are dead.
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It will hold it own at speed with the spit. At high speed it will turn better than the spit. The problem is when you get down to real speed, were most kills are made "80-225mph"
At those speeds the f4u4 high speed flaps dont matter and after the spit deploys its flaps it just a matter of time.
My recommendation is to kill the spit fast because the slower you get the table can turn FAST.
With the u4 50's you must hold on target that extra sec to kill. With the spit it only takes one squeeze.
I guess my point is that if it was a fight to the death "no running" i would take the spit.
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Points to the 2 guys above ^
ditto
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Hardly kidding because I've used it successfully far more than it's failed, and not just against "n00bs." And if you read what I said, I made it clear that it was an either/or about losing visual: Either due to the position of both planes the Spit may lose sight, (and I say this based on direct comments from the opponent, not all of whom were total newbies, afterwards) OR will assume the F4U isn't falling for the rolling scissors by Immelmanning out of it, and will then try something else.
This DOES work for cases when you're the Hog pursuing the Spit, and as long as the airspeed is high enough equal energy states doesn't make as much of a difference.
FX-1: I have to disagree with you about the .50s. All it takes is a half-second burst of .50cal to wing a Spit while in convergence.
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Or to hit pilot, oil, gas, start a fireball, etc. Doesn't have to be catastrophic to put the enemy out of the fight. Heck, even a glancing blow on a 109 can disable its hub gun (that REALLY sucks when it happens to me in the 109F).
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
-4 is faster than spixteen down low. :)
P47N is faster than dweeb16 down low as well, provided wep remains
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FX1- I am NOT attacking YOU. I am going to use your quotes and refer to "you" in this post, but it is not directed at "you" per se. "You" refers to a general group of people. I respect you as a pilot and don't want you to take this the wrong way.
The top two sections refering to flaps are for you (FX1). The rest is my feelings on a general attitude in the game...
225mph"
At those speeds the f4u4 high speed flaps dont matter.
This is precisely WHERE the flaps matter. They start coming down at 250, 2nd notch at 225. If the high speed flaps don't matter at high speed, where do they matter?
... and after the spit deploys its flaps it just a matter of time.
I do agree here. A spit that drops his flaps vs the F4U is dead unless the F4U driver makes an effort to fly like a dolt.
OK FX1- This is where I diverge from directing this at you. I'm using your quote here because it is such a popular opinion in the game. Don't take it as an attack.
I guess my point is that if it was a fight to the death "no running" i would take the spit.
Herein lies the answer. The spit driver DOES have a chance against the F4U if the F4U slows down and continues to try to out-turn the spit at slow speed. This is just plain stupid, of course. This allows the spit to use the advantages of his plane, while castrating the Hog. It seems folks think that it's ok to insist that the other player abandon the strengths of their personal ride in favor of letting the better turning plane win. Sad, yes, but true.
It's perfectly ok, heck even my DUTY to fly stupid and let you kill me, right? To use the strengths of my plane (speed, for one) and deny you yours (slow speed sustained turning ability) would be what? Strategy? How UNFAIR!! It would only be fair if I reverse that, and GIVE you the advantage. Does a spit need a "gift" to kill a hog?
What the F4U pilot NEEDS to do is extend for some speed and seperation and try again. I'm not talking about out of icon range. 2-3K is plenty. But your "no running, to the death" statement denies that option right?
So you're really saying- "As long as the F4U pilot doesn't use the strengths of his plane or his brain to beat me, I choose the spit."
The general attitude seems to be- "You get one try, maybe two, to kill me while your plane is functioning well. No more. Then, when you lose your speed it's all over. You must drive your plane the way I see fit, and allow me to pick you to death at slow speed with my big gun."
Sadly, this is obviously the predominant opinion of the low and slow crowd.
I wonder why the slower planes so often needed such big guns. Was it because they needed to inflict lethal damage in a fleeting opportunity against a faster plane?
Don't get me wrong- I'm not griping here. I just have to sit back and sigh. I'm saddened by it, not irritated.
Do you people ever compete on a level where both parties can attempt to perform at their best?
Do you allow your billiards opponent to use both hands? Choose his own que? Or do you get to pick. Do you make him stick one hand in his pocket while he shoots with his crooked que, so you can amaze him with your two-handed prowess?
Do you hunt deer during the day? Or at night with a spotlight in a fenced-in enclosure?
Do you play baseball against an "equal" team? Or against children with broomsticks.
Sad, really, that anyone would WANT or EXPECT someone to throw them the fight. Where do you see the "glory" of winning against an opponent who is limited by "your" perceptions of how he should fly?
You should be irritated by the people who DO fly the way you mention, not the other way around.
You can only be as good as your competition.
MtnMan
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Amen brother, god bless you MtnMan that couldnt have been more true, if you fly against people who will fight YOUR fight thean you aint half as good as you think you are.
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I am too tried to answer that post. I wasn't bashing the u4 it my second ride and love the bird. We play the game different . That is our difference in opinion.
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having flow an fought the f4u and spit 9 . i've shot down alot of f4us with the spit . i've had them fast an slow . often depends on pilot and not trying to follow. if the f4u dives i stay level. he's got to come up at some point. if they chase me i'll fly as close to his belly as i can under that long nose.
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If you take everything into account i think the P51D is the best overall prop plane
445 Mph
6 .50 cal MG
Excellent Manueverablity at high alt (which is where most of the fights are anyway)
good armor
good climb rate
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That doesn't describe the P-51D I know.
Frankly, the Spitfire Mk XIV would probably have a rather significant advantage over the P-51D. Faster, heavier firepower. better acceleration. P-51D only really comes out ahead in fuel range (by a lot). The P-51 was not particularly renown for its durability either.
The F4U-4 would maul either of those two. Remember, all three of these fighters are good at high altitude, not just the P-51D.
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Originally posted by Karnak
The F4U-4 would maul either of those two. Remember, all three of these fighters are good at high altitude, not just the P-51D.
That depends on the altitude. I was in a Spit XIV one night dueling a Ta-152 at 23-24K. We were pretty evenly matched in speed, power, climb and turn rate. If anything, the Spit had a slight advantage.
I don't think a F4U-4 would last against either of these planes at that alt and that's where they were designed to fly. The P-51 would be toast.
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Originally posted by mtnman
Herein lies the answer. The spit driver DOES have a chance against the F4U if the F4U slows down and continues to try to out-turn the spit at slow speed. This is just plain stupid, of course.
And darn fun, might I add :D (Also quite rewarding when you actually manage to pull it off against a decent stick).
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Originally posted by Ace8765
If you take everything into account i think the P51D is the best overall prop plane
445 Mph
6 .50 cal MG
Excellent Manueverablity at high alt (which is where most of the fights are anyway)
good armor
good climb rate
P51 sux, quite frankly. FRom another post:
Respectfully, I earnestly disagree. The 51, in it's current model, isn't a very good plane, compared to other LW rides. What does it do well? Very few things really. High speed handling is excellent and views are as well. Other than that there are planes that clearly outclass it.
It's speed is pretty good yes, but this is somewhat hampered by its uninspiring acceleration. There are several planes that are not only faster but more agile. Additionally, the tiffie and -a are nearly as fast and are better all around aircraft.(speaking of deck speeds here as most LW fights occur at or near the ground).
Acceleration, as alluded to, just plain sucks.
Roll rate is mediocre at most combat speeds.
Climb rate is average at best.
Lethality is quite average.
Ammo load out for the .50's is below average compared to other .50 rides.
Durability, again... unremarkable.
Turn rate is well below average, towards the bottom for all fighters.
Sure it has long legs, but this rarely comes into play in the small maps we are using.
In summary, the 51 is decidely outclassed by its contemporaries in the LW, as it stands today.
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Steve I agree on some points but it still is a very good plane.
Its characteristics suit teamwork more than some of the other planes.
2 P51'S can do way more damage flown together than say 2 190's or 2 Spits.
Back on subject my favourite Best prop plane has to be the Tempest. Way too many people fly it timidly but its at its best when flown really aggressively.
I use it when Bish go all GHI/lemming style to get a field. I don't think any other plane in the set could let me terrorise 10 + enemy cons on my own and let me live aswell as she does. 4 hispanos mixed with sheer speed and power. Also can turn with most stuff and catch them out because they dont expect you too.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
P51 sux, quite frankly.
It most certainly doesn't.
I don't know what some people expect of it. It was not a super plane in real life either. Large part of its success was due to fighting a worn out opposition, that actually had better planes, relatively late in the war. It wasn't there when LW or IJN were in their prime to blow them out of the skies. It was a very decent all-purpose fighter, but not much more than that. American war propaganda inflated its public image.
In AH it may not be the best, but is ranked quite high. I'll take it over a tiffi any day and it is a match for anything LW except maybe the 109K4 - but then again, how many planes are on par with the K4?
There's a big difference between, not-best and sux.
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Originally posted by bozon
It most certainly doesn't.
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Ya, it does. I guess you can't/ didn't read my post. I've already established how it is clearly outclassed by most of it's late war contemporaries. You might not like facts, but that doesn't make them anything but.
As for your K4 comment... anything the pony does, the d9 does better. So does the la7 at MA alts, unless you consider views and high speed handling... oh ya, I already mentioned those.
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The P51D does not suck by any meaning of the word.
It is fast. Faster than all F4us up til 15k, not counting sea level (where the F4u4 gains a few MPH due to ram air effect). It outclimbs all f4us but the -4 (not surprising) and all jugs and is pretty close in climb to the P-38s.
It turns slightly better than the 38J/L without flaps, and only slightly worse with flaps. It has better acceleration than all US planes except the F4U-4. Not only that, once at a speed, it KEEPS that speed because of the low drag airframe. Dive in a 47, level out, and slow down. Dive in a 51, level out, and keep screaming along. This also helps in zoom climbs and high speed manuvering.
The guns themselves are the same as the USN planes. Doesn't matter that they have a fractionally smaller ammo load, they still hit just as hard.
The visibility is far better than in the f4us, f6f, p38s, f4f, p40s.
Basically, there's not ONE thing about the P51 that sucks. It does everything very well.
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The P-51D is a very good fighter, just not the best piston fighter.
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My personal affections lie elsewhere, but I consider the P51D "top 10" in the best piston planes list.
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(http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/reviews/773/hcatfs.jpg)
(http://www.insidefurniture.com/insidefurniture/images/duh_can.jpg)
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
anything the pony does, the d9 does better.
Well, except maybe merge or knife fight...
Edit - and Steve, I'm not doing this to call you out or get under your skin... But as I recall we're both in the next scenario flying Mustangs, so if you'd like to test my statement out in the DA with me, I'd be more than happy. Just don't expect anything resembling a challenge for the first 20 fights or so, I'm rusty as anything :)
You take the D9 a few rides, then we switch. What do you say?
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Ya, it does. I guess you can't/ didn't read my post. I've already established how it is clearly outclassed by most of it's late war contemporaries.
...
As for your K4 comment... anything the pony does, the d9 does better.
I read what you wrote and I understand your sentiment. For you and your kind, if it doesn't dominate it "sux".
The D9 is perhaps the most one dimensional plane in the game. It is a cherry picker extraordinar. Very efficient in scenarios, where it is flown in a manner more resembling history. It is a poor 1 on 1 plane.
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Dora really isn't much more than a Buff killer. Heavy armor and very fast to run through formations, with heavy firepower to bring them down. Other than rate of roll she doesn't have much going for her in a 1v1 fight.
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Dora's got a glass nose. Almost no armor to speak of. Any hit from the front takes out your oil or radiator, or worse (pilot).
It's only a buff hunter because of the ammo load and speed, but not because of overwhelming firepower (like typhie or 190a8) or because of airframe strength (like f6f or il2). IMO I don't like hunting with the dora. Not worth it.
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Originally posted by bozon
I read what you wrote and I understand your sentiment. For you and your kind, if it doesn't dominate it "sux".
The D9 is perhaps the most one dimensional plane in the game. It is a cherry picker extraordinar. Very efficient in scenarios, where it is flown in a manner more resembling history. It is a poor 1 on 1 plane.
id have to agree and say that co alt co e equal pilots the dora is gonna die unless he runs.
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I would take the 51 in that fight.
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It turns slightly better than the 38J/L without flaps, and only slightly worse with flaps
No it doesn't. And the 38L turns markedly better with flaps, not a little better. What about the rest of the entire US fighters? 51 can't turn w/ them, isn'tt close to most of them
It outclimbs all f4us but the
Wrong again. They are nearly the same, unless you are going w/ your fractionally again.
It has better acceleration than all US planes except the F4U-4.
Dude, put down the crack pipe...WRONG again. Plus, show me an arena that is limited to just US planes. Besides i said "the 51 is decidely outclassed by its contemporaries in the LW"*, I never said anything about limiting it to US plane comparisons. Your point is both wrong and moot.
* I'll exclude JABO.
Doesn't matter that they have a fractionally smaller ammo load,
I'm not sure you even play AHII, you are so far off base.
A P51 has a 6 gun punch through 270 rounds
The jug has an 8 gun punch through 425 rounds
f6f and corsair has 6 gun punch through 400 rounds
These planes have almost half again full punch from the pony. If by fractionally you mean 48% more... you are correct.
Widewing, where are you?
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Originally posted by evenhaim
id have to agree and say that co alt co e equal pilots the dora is gonna die unless he runs.
I don't fly the d9 much. I'll pick the d9 pilot and I'll bet he beats you 2 out of 3. Same goes for you, FX.
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Originally posted by bozon
I read what you wrote and I understand your sentiment. For you and your kind, if it doesn't dominate it "sux".
And exactly... please be clear, exactly who/what are my kind?
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Originally posted by Krusty
Dora's got a glass nose. Almost no armor to speak of. Any hit from the front takes out your oil or radiator, or worse (pilot).
It's only a buff hunter because of the ammo load and speed, but not because of overwhelming firepower (like typhie or 190a8) or because of airframe strength (like f6f or il2). IMO I don't like hunting with the dora. Not worth it.
Yep, Dora is poor choice for buff hunting. The A8, BF110-G2 and even the Ta-152 with it's glass radiator make far superior choices.
The Dora is probably the best pure B'n'Z fighter in the game though.
[Edit] Whoops, Typhie, Temest and 163 have to be added to the buff hunter list.
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Shawk would be a good da partner for this fight. Back in the day I think him and Gball did a couple d9 v 51 fights. Shawk E fought him but Gball won each fight.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
And exactly... please be clear, exactly who/what are my kind?
The kind that cannot recover from a broken image of the plane they like. They kind that do not under stand why bother modeling less then best planes, I mean, who would fly them?
The kind that post threads such as:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212296
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212245
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209622
the current thread
and many older ones
The kind that will count the bullets on the plane as you did, to show that it is at a disadvantage, ignoring the fact that it is plenty for a 6-8 kills sortie.
The kind that will ignore what is actually happening in the MA where the P51D is a very effective plane.
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Wow this thread is still alive and kicking?
(BTW I like the 190D9 and TA.152 both are excellent planes)
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Originally posted by bozon
The kind that cannot recover from a broken image of the plane they like. They kind that do not under stand why bother modeling less then best planes, I mean, who would fly them?
The kind that will count the bullets on the plane as you did, to show that it is at a disadvantage, ignoring the fact that it is plenty for a 6-8 kills sortie.
The kind that will ignore what is actually happening in the MA where the P51D is a very effective plane.
LOL so your argument is..... vapor. I stated facts about ammo load and you reply w/ " your kind". Yuo tried to argue about the US plane set when I was comparing the 51 to it's LW contemporaries. Denied.
LOL I think we are done here, you have nothing to support your argument against me, in fact, other than disagreeing, you didn't really have an argument.
As far as what is happening in the MA w/ 51's and plenty of 6-8 kill sorties there, well, it just shows that you should know who you are debating before making your ignorance so blatanly obvious. I know a little bit about the 51 in the MA.
They kind that do not under stand why bother modeling less then best planes, I mean, who would fly them?
This is another foolish thing to say. I was merely comparing planes, I never once said that the 51 modelled incorrectly with the exception of having it's turn radius w/ flaps neutered with an update. This is fact though and I know you don't like those. With the exception of turning, as I mentioned, I haven't suggested the 51 should be better in any regard so you really have made a poor comparison by referencing those other threads.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
I don't fly the d9 much. I'll pick the d9 pilot and I'll bet he beats you 2 out of 3. Same goes for you, FX.
Urchin comes to mind for me.
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HIS argument is vapor?!??! Let's talk about YOURS... You say it's got less ammo for the guns. Okay, big WHOOP. You still have the same guns, and instead of having 400rpg like USN planes, it's got 2 guns with 400 rpg and 2 with about 300. Like Bozon said it's still enough for a large number of kills. I've landed 5+ kill sorties without rearm many times in it.
Then you're going on and on about how the 109D9 is so wonderful, and you admit you don't fly it? Where are you pulling this performance from?
I DO fly the 190D, and HAVE flown it in historic matchups and setups vs P51s. It is dominated by the pony at all alts. Speed alone means jack. The P51 does everything better than the dora.
Then you're out of touch with the P51 enough to say that it doesn't out turn ANY us plane? You say it can't accelerate? You say it can't climb? You then accuse me of smoking crack because YOU are out of touch so far you can't understand how it's even modeled in this game.
What, have you ever FLOWN the P51D? I ask because you don't fly the Dora yet have the audacity to make sweeping comments about its performance, and here we have just as many wrong sweeping comments about the P51.
Here's a tip: Check DokGonzo's link in my sig. Aside from the F4u (which is just a freak of nature in this game) the P51 handles itself QUITE well -- this includes turn radius.
SteveBailey you've lost any respect I might have had for you, posting unfounded lies about planes you admit you don't fly. It's not even that you're gushing about your favorite, you're just so far off base it's not even funny.
P.S. The P51D outclimbs the F4u1 by over 600fpm below 10k, they become more or less even as the power dips until about 14k or whatever it is, then it jumps way ahead of it again.
[Edited for tact]
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You guys need to take a deep breath, and give Skuzzy a hug. Krusty, Steve, let it go.
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I post details about the P51D flight model in AH as it stands now, and he simply says "nuh-uh!" and says I'm on drugs for..... what? Pointing out what he didn't know already?
I did post my previous post with some snarking, but he had it coming. He's off base and can't accept it. He's ranting about how bad the P51 is, and when the facts are pointed out that (second to the F4u-4) it's one of the best US planes in the game he just ignores fact and says "no its not"
I don't have anything vested in this thread. I'd normally have let it go. However in a thread where new people may look for help choosing a plane, I didn't want him spreading misinformation like he has.
For the community members at large, I'm sorry if you didn't like my tone in the previous thread.
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P.S. So you don't need any effort to check, I'm posting the link:
P-38J, P-38L, P-51B, and P-51D comparison (note turn radius portion) (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=p38j&p2=p38l&p3=p51b&p4=p51d)
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Originally posted by Krusty
HIS argument is vapor?!??! Let's talk about YOURS... You say it's got less ammo for the guns. Okay, big WHOOP. You still have the same guns, and instead of having 400rpg like USN planes, it's got 2 guns with 400 rpg and 2 with about 300. Like Bozon said it's still enough for a large number of kills. I've landed 5+ kill sorties without rearm many times in it.
Then you're going on and on about how the 109D9 is so wonderful, and you admit you don't fly it? Where are you pulling this performance from?
I DO fly the 190D, and HAVE flown it in historic matchups and setups vs P51s. It is dominated by the pony at all alts. Speed alone means jack. The P51 does everything better than the dora.
Then you're out of touch with the P51 enough to say that it doesn't out turn ANY us plane? You say it can't accelerate? You say it can't climb? You then accuse me of smoking crack because YOU are out of touch so far you can't understand how it's even modeled in this game.
What, have you ever FLOWN the P51D? I ask because you don't fly the Dora yet have the audacity to make sweeping comments about its performance, and here we have just as many wrong sweeping comments about the P51.
Here's a tip: Check DokGonzo's link in my sig. Aside from the F4u (which is just a freak of nature in this game) the P51 handles itself QUITE well -- this includes turn radius.
SteveBailey you've lost any respect I might have had for you, posting unfounded lies about planes you admit you don't fly. It's not even that you're gushing about your favorite, you're just so far off base it's not even funny.
P.S. The P51D outclimbs the F4u1 by over 600fpm below 10k, they become more or less even as the power dips until about 14k or whatever it is, then it jumps way ahead of it again.
[Edited for tact]
Krusty, there you go again comparing the 51 to only US planes. I said, and just for you, I'll say it again, it is out classed by it's contemporaries. Will you please take a moment to show me where I said anything about only other US planes in my initial assertion? The contemporaries I'm referring to are the spixteen, LA7, k4, and D9. Again, will you please show me where I was cimparing the 51 to only other US planes? Thanks.
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The P51 does everything better than the dora.
It does everything better than the d9? You mean everything better except rolling, speed, turn, climb, acceleration, lethality? You must, because the d9 does all those things better.
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You say it can't accelerate? You say it can't climb?
No, I said it's acceleration and climb is mediocre compared to its contemporaries. It contemporaries are not the other US planes. They are the la7, d9, spit16 and the k4. I'll say it for you again, the 51 is outclassed by its contemporaries.
hen you're out of touch with the P51 enough to say that it doesn't out turn ANY us plane?
Nope, I didn't say that. I said "Turn rate is well below average, towards the bottom for all fighters". Am I wrong?
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Nope, I didn't say that. I said "Turn rate is well below average, towards the bottom for all fighters". Am I wrong?
Nope, you are exactly correct. The current modeling of the P-51s results in it being out-turned by everything but the 190s..
Get it up above 20k and things improve quite a bit.. But, we don't fight there in AH2. Thus, Steve is correct.
My regards,
Widewing
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Krusty, to save you some search time, below you will find my original quote. As you can see, I'm not comparing it to other US planes, I'm comparing it to other late war(LW) rides. Additionally, " in it's current model" refers to the emasculating of the 51 flaps, where turning is concerned.
The 51, in it's current model, isn't a very good plane, compared to other LW rides.
Also: In summary, the 51 is decidely outclassed by its contemporaries in the LW, as it stands today
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I ask because you don't fly the Dora yet have the audacity to make sweeping comments about its performance,
Actually I took the information of the exact same website you referenced with your 51/38 turn comparison. If you want to argue points about turning relevent to my assertion, compare how well the 51D does in turning against other LW planes.
What, have you ever FLOWN the P51D?
Well, here's my totals for the last three tours for the 51D:
Kills in 51D: 721
Died in 51D: 43
So I have flown it a bit, yes. :)
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
You guys need to take a deep breath, and give Skuzzy a hug. Krusty, Steve, let it go.
Mash, sorry bro, it's just spirited debate(for me at least). Nothing wrong, IMHO, in debating w/ a little fervor. I'm sure after the smoke is cleared, we'll all still be pals.* :)
*Not pretending to know the minds of others, just my opinion.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Mash, sorry bro, it's just spirited debate(for me at least). Nothing wrong, IMHO, in debating w/ a little fervor. I'm sure after the smoke is cleared, we'll all still be pals.* :)
*Not pretending to know the minds of others, just my opinion.
cc that. <> bud
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Well, here's my totals for the last three tours for the 51D:
Kills in 51D: 721
Died in 51D: 43
So I have flown it a bit, yes. :)
Nice.
So either it does not "sux" or you have the abilities of a jedi. Where exactly is the problem, not whining about those 43 deaths are you?
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So either it does not "sux" or you have the abilities of a jedi.
Looks to me like he's figured out how to be successful within the boundaries imposed by the P51's flight model.
Being successful in a given plane does not mean the plane doesn't have some serious disadvantages associated with it.
The jedi thing I'm not real sure of. I didn't know Yoda was available anymore. I know he's always booked when I try to get some time scheduled.
MtnMan
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Let's see...
Originally posted by SteveBailey
I've already established how it is clearly outclassed by most of it's late war contemporaries.
[...]
anything the pony does, the d9 does better. So does the la7 at MA alts, unless you consider views and high speed handling... oh ya, I already mentioned those.
and..
Originally posted by SteveBailey
It turns slightly better than the 38J/L without flaps, and only slightly worse with flaps
No it doesn't. And the 38L turns markedly better with flaps, not a little better. What about the rest of the entire US fighters? 51 can't turn w/ them, isn'tt close to most of them
It outclimbs all f4us but the
Wrong again. They are nearly the same, unless you are going w/ your fractionally again.
It has better acceleration than all US planes except the F4U-4.
Dude, put down the crack pipe...WRONG again. [snip][/b]
You brought "contemporaries" into it, equivelant aircraft from the same time. That includes competitors in its own nation. That includes P47s, F4us, and P-38s. Then YOU brought up "turns worse than all other US rides". YOU brought the subject up, and when I countered with a correct set of details, you said "does not!"
Originally posted by SteveBailey
I don't fly the d9 much.
Originally posted by SteveBailey
I was merely comparing planes
And, the cherry on top:
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Will you please take a moment to show me where I said anything about only other US planes
You didn't say "only" but you had some US-plane specific info that was incorrect.
Then let's not forget this:
Originally posted by SteveBailey
hen you're out of touch with the P51 enough to say that it doesn't out turn ANY us plane?
Nope, I didn't say that.[/b]
Let me refresh your memory:
Originally posted by SteveBailey
What about the rest of the entire US fighters? 51 can't turn w/ them, isn'tt close to most of them
EDIT: I RE-post the link above:
P-38J, P-38L, P-51B, and P-51D comparison (note turn radius portion) (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=p38j&p2=p38l&p3=p51b&p4=p51d)
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Other than a request that Steve read all the replies before replying himself (instead of doing 3-5 single replies, make one), I'm done with this thread. I've listed the link to the game stats. I've simply tried to illustrate the P-51 is not a POS like Steve claimed. Then I defended my statements to him (the long quotes post above was my justification for posting, if you didn't care for it, then ignore it. It was for steve mostly).
I'm done with the thread. The P-51 is one of the better and more dynamic planes in the game. Don't believe anybody if they tell you it sucked in any way.
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What about the rest of the entire US fighters? 51 can't turn w/ them, isn'tt close to most of them
I did say that, and I was right. The info you are using to compare turning, with just /one of the US planes is outdated I believe. Like I said, the 51 can't turn with US, in fact, just about all the fighters.
Widewing's post clearly justfies me as correct. I'm sorry you don't like it but the 51 is clearly outclassed by it LW contemporaries.
Edit: Most of the 47's, 38, and f4u's were mid war entries, compared to the D stang we are discussing
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Originally posted by bozon
Nice.
So either it does not "sux" or you have the abilities of a jedi. Where exactly is the problem, not whining about those 43 deaths are you?
I guess we are just going to have to disagree. You think the pony is a great ride and I think it is outclassed by it's LW contemporaries. Oddly, statistics bear out my assertion quite clearly.
FWIW, I'm no Jedi. Even though I think the pony sux in relation to other late war rides, it does have a couple of strengths, that I've already mentioned, in the MA.
As Mtnman suggests, I try to utilize the strengths of high speed handling(I stay in the vert mostly), speed and excellent views to get kills . I try a few other things related to ability* but within the limits of the plane. Contrary to the way most people fly the 51, I rarely go over 6-8k, that's plenty for the MA. One benefit is that if you do this you will get really proficient at avoiding higher attackers, lol.
The next question that may come to your mind is why I fly the pony then if it sucks. I fly the pony because of its history, my dad was always enamoured with it, and I think it's a beautiful plane. :)
*I'm not making any claims to have any talent at this game, that's for others to decide.
Steve
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Just leave it at this: the P-51 is good at what it's designed to be: Fast, long range, good high-speed handling and good handling at high altitude.
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No no no no....
The best plane is ofcourse P-47. It is uber!:furious
Uriel said so!!!!:furious :furious
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Originally posted by mipoikel
No no no no....
The best plane is ofcourse P-47. It is uber!:furious
Uriel said so!!!!:furious :furious
lol I read couple of his rants errr posts... good stuff.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
The next question that may come to your mind is why I fly the pony then if it sucks. I fly the pony because of its history, my dad was always enamoured with it, and I think it's a beautiful plane. :)
I wish more players were like that.
My favorites are P47, F6F and the Mosquito. I don't think any model beats the poor Mossie for combination of worst modeling option and problematic FM, though Pyro said it is being fixed. Our Hellcat is still missing quite a few mph.
Yet, with all their problems they don't "sux". They are still competative in the MA and extremely so in their natural enviromnent of the MWA and scenarios. Regardless of modeled right or wrong, our P51D is a very viable ride, as you prove yourself. With K/D approaching 20:1 in your hands, you clearly can take on anything. I don't believe in flying the planes "strengths" in AH - for me it is much more fun to do the opposite, maybe that is why I don't feel it sux. I actually don't fly it much because I feel it is too easy. Perhaps I should fly it more.
If you think P51D is modeled wrong, just post the data. For gameplay purposes it is more than fine, as your stats show.
BTW, as for "best prop plane ever" my vote is divided between F6F and the Mosquito :p
It all depend on the definition of best.
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Originally posted by bozon
I wish more players were like that.
If you think P51D is modeled wrong, just post the data.
Honestly, I don't know enough about modeling to say if it is correct or not. I know that one of the updates really screwed with its flapped turning ability, Widewing could set us straight on the details. I love the mossie and am eagerly waiting it's "fix". :aok
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personaly i find ALL US aircraft disapointing. I like the spit IX as it accelerats out of the blocks fantastic great roll rate and turn . Compare that to te P51 and i soon find it in trouble if the speed drops. I also like the Fw-190A8 it's again very fast accel great gun package. roll rate is fantastic for scissors fights. holds on to it's E for forever.
thats my pennies worth.
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Originally posted by B3YT
I also like the Fw-190A8 it's again very fast accel great gun package. roll rate is fantastic for scissors fights.
The 190A8 is a very mediocre aircraft in regards to acceleration. Up to 200 mph the acceleration is similar to a P-51D, above that, the Pony actually accelerates faster than a A8.
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ok just seems to accel faster then
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Originally posted by B3YT
personaly i find ALL US aircraft disapointing. I like the spit IX as it accelerats out of the blocks fantastic great roll rate and turn . Compare that to te P51 and i soon find it in trouble if the speed drops. I also like the Fw-190A8 it's again very fast accel great gun package. roll rate is fantastic for scissors fights. holds on to it's E for forever.
thats my pennies worth.
Aw, US aircraft are uber! They taught me how to really fly.
The Spitfire LF IX is actually my favourite plane, that and the Spitfire Mk.Vc (ever since I was a kid), but if you really give the US planes a chance, they do amazingly well.
Or try the Ki-84. Flies easy like a Spitfire but rolls like a monster.
I would say 'try the Spitfire XVI' but that plane's too common as it is, and it's not Spitfirey enough for me liking. :D
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As for DokGonzo's page, I believe he's confirmed it's based off of the current (recoded) airflow version (post 2.6). It should be accurate. As it's modeled in-game, the P51 can turn better than or equal to (depending on flaps used) other late war US planes with the exception of the freakish ( :t ) F4us.
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Originally posted by Krusty
As it's modeled in-game, the P51 can turn better than or equal to (depending on flaps used) other late war US planes with the exception of the freakish ( :t ) F4us.
Dude, you are just plain wrong. Read Widewing's post, please so we can put this to rest.
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WW was perhaps exaggerating with his "everything but 190s" comment.
I believe he was talking about the entire planeset (including zeros, f4fs, hurricanes, spitfires, etc). In THAT regards, the P51 is below average. But, most US planes are "below average" in turning, compared to the entire planeset. Compared to other US planes? I don't think even YOU can claim the P47 turns better than the P51. You've seen the turn radius chart, with full flaps the P51B matches the P38 for turning with flaps, and the 51D is a little behind that.
Not to mention all the speed/climb/acceleration data I included (secondary to the turn radius, but still a factor in "suck" or "not suck"...
Hey I'm not saying it accelerates like a 163, or that it turns like a a6m2. I'm saying you're incorrect to state it's the worst turning plane in all the late ware US planes, and that it accelerates slowly, and etc etc etc.
I'm not some wild fanatical P51 fan, but I've flown it enough and FOUGHT it enough to know it turns a damn sight better than you give it credit for.
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i find the spit XVI disapointing too. I fly the US planes if i'm mud moving or escort. they just seem to lack ....i dunno.....something that the hurri , spit, typhon, mossie has (an i don't mean that becuase they are british) . Of the late war planes only the LA5/7 and maybe the 190 i find suit me. Mind you i only seem to fly well in a CAP'ed airspace when i'm at the dissadvantage. Must be the brit underdog in me :noid :D :p
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I doubt I'd say it's the best but I've really fallen in love with the Yak-9U. Good climb rate, fast, lethal, rugged, decent roll-rate and turns ok. Oh... plus it's a small target. If only it had WEP so you could accelerate in it...
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Originally posted by Krusty
WW was perhaps exaggerating with his "everything but 190s" comment.
No, he was stating a fact based on actual flight testing.
I don't think even YOU can claim the P47 turns better than the P51.
With full flaps, ALL the 47 models out turn the 51D. The 51D is the late war version of the 51, which is what i have been referring to all along. check the charts yourself. :)
I'm saying you're incorrect to state it's the worst turning plane in all the late ware US planes, and that it accelerates slowly, and etc etc etc.
What late war US fighter does the 51D outturn? In fact, name any us fighter the 51D out turns.
I said, compared to it's late war contemporaries, it's acceleration is mediocre. Late war contemporaries? The K4, D9, La7. Interestingly enough, at typical MA combat alts, ALL these same planes out accelerate, outturn, outclimb, are faster, and turn better than the 51D. Additionally, they are ALL more lethal.
My data is irrefutable. Check out gonzo's chart yourself. As i've stated from the beginning, and it is fact:
n summary, the 51 is decidely outclassed by its contemporaries in the LW, as it stands today
This is what I've been saying from the beginning and the numbers at gonzoville clearly show this. I'm not sure why you disageree with the numbers, but they are there in print.
I'm not some wild fanatical P51 fan
I am. :) I fly the 51D about 95% of the time. If you don't believe me and care enough to dispute it, you can look up my expanded stats. My in game name is: Steve
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Originally posted by Krusty
WW was perhaps exaggerating with his "everything but 190s" comment.
No exaggeration whatsoever.
I don't think even YOU can claim the P47 turns better than the P51.
P-47s out-turn the P-51s. Flaps only gets the P-51 dead sooner.
You've seen the turn radius chart, with full flaps the P51B matches the P38 for turning with flaps, and the 51D is a little behind that.
Any P-38 will out-turn any P-51... And do so easily.
Not to mention all the speed/climb/acceleration data I included (secondary to the turn radius, but still a factor in "suck" or "not suck"...
P-38J/L accelerates and climbs better than the P-51s. P-47s, especially the D-40 are close behind. Close enough that escape by running is not an option unless you have an E advantage to start. The higher you go, the closer the P-47s get to the P-51D in acceleration, and eventually pass it. P-38s just open the gap further as you go up.
Hey I'm not saying it accelerates like a 163, or that it turns like a a6m2. I'm saying you're incorrect to state it's the worst turning plane in all the late ware US planes, and that it accelerates slowly, and etc etc etc.
Krusty, how about flying the P-51 against a P-38L, Co-E and Co-alt starting at 300 mph. If you fight, you will die. Ditto against the Jugs. The RAF considered the Mustang Mk.III the most agile fighter after the Spitfires. In fact, in direct combat comparisons, they considered it a toss up as to which would win.
In AH2, the P-51 is outclassed by the Spitfires( Mk. IX, VIII, XVI and XIV) in every category except max speed.
Acceleration: " The Spitfire has the best acceleration, followed by the Mustang III, Tempest V, Thunderbolt and Meteor III."
Climb: "To a lesser extent the same applies to rate of climb. Almost invariably the aircraft with the best power to weight ratio will have the best rate of climb. Here the Spitfire XIV comes into its own, followed by the Mustang III, the Tempest V and then the Thunderbolt II. This aircraft incidentally, is actually better than the Mustang and Tempest at around 28,000ft."
Turning Circles: "Once again, the Spitfire maintains top place, followed by the Mustang, Meteor, Tempest and Thunderbolt. Too much regard to this order should not be paid, particularly by the individual who will angrily recall the occasion when he out-turned a Meteor when flying his Tempest. This sort of thing is inevitable, but we can only repeat that where the circumstances are common to both aircraft, these positions are not far wrong."
How about the Mustang Mk.III Tactical Trials?
BRIEF TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH SPITFIRE XIV
Maximum Endurance
25. By comparison the Spitfire XIV has no endurance.
Maximum speed
26. There is practically nothing to choose in maximum speed.
Maximum climb
27. The Spitfire XIV is very much better.
Dive
28. As for the Spitfire IX. The Mustang pulls away; but less markedly.
Turning Circle
29. The Spitfire XIV is better.
Rate of Roll
30. Advantage tends to be with the Spitfire XIV.
Conclusion
31. With the exception of endurance, no conclusions should be drawn, as these two aircraft should never be enemies. The choice is a matter of taste.
How about comparison to the Bf 109G?
Maximum Speed
45. The Mustang III is faster at all heights. Its best heights, by comparison, are below 16,000ft (30mph faster approx) and above 25,000ft (30mph increasing to 50mph at 30,000ft).
Maximum climb
46. This is rather similar. The Mustang is very slightly better above 25,000ft but worse below 20,000ft.
Zoom Climb
47. Unfortunately the Me. 109G appears to have a very good high-speed climb, making the aircraft very similar in a zoom climb.
Dive
48. On the other hand in defense the Mustang can still increase the range in a prolonged dive.
Turning Circle
49. The Mustang III is greatly superior.
Rate of Roll
50. Not much to choose. In defense (in a tight spot) a rapid change of direction will throw the Me.109G’s sight off. This is because the 109G’s maximum roll is embarrassing (slots keep opening)
Conclusions
51. In attack, the Mustang can always catch the Me.109G, except in any sort of climb (unless there is a high overtaking speed). In defense, a steep turn should be the first maneuver, followed if necessary, by a dive (below 20,000ft). A high-speed climb will unfortunately not increase the range. If above 25,000ft. keep above by climbing or all out level.
There's lots of data that supports the P-51s being better than they are in the game.
I'm not some wild fanatical P51 fan, but I've flown it enough and FOUGHT it enough to know it turns a damn sight better than you give it credit for.
Tell ya what, I'll take a P-47D-25 and you take a P-51 (either) and we'll do some comparison flying. You will find that the Jug eats the P-51 alive in a turn fight.
My regards,
Widewing
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Pwnt.
Also, widewing, check your emails.
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Originally posted by Oogly50
Pwnt.
Also, widewing, check your emails.
Please forward it again... I just disabled some filters that sometimes boot stuff I want from the server.
My regards,
Widewing
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Kinda makes the Spit XIV sound better than it is in AH2 as well, particularly the roll rate comments.
Of course, what those brief comments don't cover is acceleration at different speeds or roll rates at different speeds.
SgtPappy,
The Spitfire Mk XVI is just a Spitfire LF.Mk IX with an American version of the engine, Merlin 266 instead of a Merlin 66 (the Mk XVI in AH even uses Merlin 66 critical alts instead of Merlin 266 critical alts). The Mk IX in AH is an F.Mk IX with a lower powered, but with higher critical alts, Merlin 61.
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1. Tempest
2. Fw190D9&Spitfire
3. F4U
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Comparing full flaps turning circle is non-sense and people take it way too seriously. Even in this case the turning circle is smaller by less than 10%. I'm pretty sure that the P51 can sustain a better turn rate in an actual sustained "indian circle" fight. The slightly better turn radius, obtained at very poor turn rate will not be enough to save the jug (given competent pilots).
The jug seem to out turn the P51 mainly because it blows its E faster than any other plane, and pilots are comfortable in doing so thanks to its stability. I doubt any WWII pilot would consider this an advantage though, they'd rather keep their speed in the turn.
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Originally posted by bozon
Comparing full flaps turning circle is non-sense and people take it way too seriously. Even in this case the turning circle is smaller by less than 10%. I'm pretty sure that the P51 can sustain a better turn rate in an actual sustained "indian circle" fight. The slightly better turn radius, obtained at very poor turn rate will not be enough to save the jug (given competent pilots).
The jug seem to out turn the P51 mainly because it blows its E faster than any other plane, and pilots are comfortable in doing so thanks to its stability. I doubt any WWII pilot would consider this an advantage though, they'd rather keep their speed in the turn.
*sigh* So once we show you the 51 is outturned by a 47 it's nonsense . And then in the next paragraph, it "seems" to outturn the 51? The data is there, it does not support your assertions so you try to marginilize the data. You should be a politician. :aok
A WWII pilot would tell you that the 51D is grossly, criminally undermodeled in AH. There is data to support that too but I don't feel strong enough about this game to take up that argument w/ HTC. :)
Anyway, as has been established many times, I'll rewrite my original, factual statement: "In summary, the 51 is decidely outclassed by its contemporaries in the LW, as it stands today"
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Originally posted by bozon
Comparing full flaps turning circle is non-sense and people take it way too seriously. Even in this case the turning circle is smaller by less than 10%. I'm pretty sure that the P51 can sustain a better turn rate in an actual sustained "indian circle" fight. The slightly better turn radius, obtained at very poor turn rate will not be enough to save the jug (given competent pilots).
The jug seem to out turn the P51 mainly because it blows its E faster than any other plane, and pilots are comfortable in doing so thanks to its stability. I doubt any WWII pilot would consider this an advantage though, they'd rather keep their speed in the turn.
It has nothing to do with E bleed in the Jug.
With full flaps, a P-47D-25 sustains a turning radius over 50 feet smaller than a P-51D with full flaps, as well as a faster rate of turn.
We've tested these individually and head to head. I've said it many times; the drag model update absolutely killed the P-51s and their ability to maneuver at speeds below corner velocity with flaps deployed. Anything more than 3 notches of flaps is virtually worthless. All you do is trade a small decease in radius for a big hit in turn rate.
My regards,
Widewing
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wide wing check PM's
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Widewing, weren't the British officially running the Mustang Mark III running 80" Hg. MAP? That's why things don't add up, I think. The British were running it even higher than the U.S.A.A.F. guys ran it in the field, and both of them ran it heads and shoulders above what the pilot manual numbers were. We've got the pilot manual rated P-51, not the 72 or 80 inch rated one! No wonder it feels sluggish.
So, what I'm saying is that the P-51's not actually modelled incorrectly, it's just not running as high of a boost as it should be. We've got a down-rated P-51, as they arrived from the factories. The same is true of the P-38 and P-47, of course. Hitech, of course, has chosen not to model them as the actual units boosted them in the field (officially approved, I might add).
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Benny,
That wouldn't really change the turn radius much. WWII fighters produced such low thrust that it really didn't help them turn much. I seem to recall Widewing saying the Spitfire Mk XIV produced about 1,700lbs of thrust and the F4F-4 produced about 1,100lbs. Not much to begin with and not all that much different even though the Spit XIV massively outpowers the F4F-4.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
...and both of them ran it heads and shoulders above what the pilot manual numbers were.
I call BS.
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Originally posted by Widewing
It has nothing to do with E bleed in the Jug.
With full flaps, a P-47D-25 sustains a turning radius over 50 feet smaller than a P-51D with full flaps, as well as a faster rate of turn.
We've tested these individually and head to head. I've said it many times; the drag model update absolutely killed the P-51s and their ability to maneuver at speeds below corner velocity with flaps deployed. Anything more than 3 notches of flaps is virtually worthless. All you do is trade a small decease in radius for a big hit in turn rate.
No plane fought with full flaps. All turning evaluations in comparative tests were done with no flaps.
I don't want to belittle your tests WW, but people tend to take them as gospel. You tested very specific and extreme ends of the envelope. This is NOT representative of an actual sustained turning fight where you balance radius and rate of turn - not min/max one of them. Simply due to better power loading and wing loading, P51 can SUSTAIN better turn rate. What actually happens is that jug pilots in a knife fight go for "all or nothing" moves using only instantaneous turns, never sustaining them. Going round and round vs. P51D is death - it will either come around behind you, or gain E and drop on your head. The Jug's way to counter it will be switching to a linear fight, not circular.
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Originally posted by bozon
No plane fought with full flaps. All turning evaluations in comparative tests were done with no flaps.
I don't want to belittle your tests WW, but people tend to take them as gospel. You tested very specific and extreme ends of the envelope. This is NOT representative of an actual sustained turning fight where you balance radius and rate of turn - not min/max one of them. Simply due to better power loading and wing loading, P51 can SUSTAIN better turn rate. What actually happens is that jug pilots in a knife fight go for "all or nothing" moves using only instantaneous turns, never sustaining them. Going round and round vs. P51D is death - it will either come around behind you, or gain E and drop on your head. The Jug's way to counter it will be switching to a linear fight, not circular.
:rofl :rofl
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Just out of curiousity, do you believe the same applies to the AH B Pony?
I really enjoy that bird and it seems to turn quite well and hang with the 16s, Kis etc.
I tend to get low and slow in it like I do in the 38G and it flops kinda nice and the flaps do seem to help a lot in the turn fights.
But then again the D Pony always feels "heavier" to me in AH. I know it was for real as well, but it doesn't seem as agile as the B Pony.
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Out of a description from an old P51 pilot, it was 1 notch. Full flaps=pointless.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Kinda makes the Spit XIV sound better than it is in AH2 as well, particularly the roll rate comments.
Of course, what those brief comments don't cover is acceleration at different speeds or roll rates at different speeds.
SgtPappy,
The Spitfire Mk XVI is just a Spitfire LF.Mk IX with an American version of the engine, Merlin 266 instead of a Merlin 66 (the Mk XVI in AH even uses Merlin 66 critical alts instead of Merlin 266 critical alts). The Mk IX in AH is an F.Mk IX with a lower powered, but with higher critical alts, Merlin 61.
Oh I know that. I just find it nothing to look like the Spitfires of old childhood.
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Originally posted by bozon
No plane fought with full flaps. All turning evaluations in comparative tests were done with no flaps.
Some did. It was uncommon, but it happened. Either way, what they did in WWII has no bearing on what we do here.
In the game, we often fight with flaps deployed. That's how it is.
I don't want to belittle your tests WW, but people tend to take them as gospel. You tested very specific and extreme ends of the envelope. This is NOT representative of an actual sustained turning fight where you balance radius and rate of turn - not min/max one of them. Simply due to better power loading and wing loading, P51 can SUSTAIN better turn rate. What actually happens is that jug pilots in a knife fight go for "all or nothing" moves using only instantaneous turns, never sustaining them. Going round and round vs. P51D is death - it will either come around behind you, or gain E and drop on your head. The Jug's way to counter it will be switching to a linear fight, not circular.
When was the last time you flew the P-51s? I don't see evidence that you have with the exception of tour 77 (June 2006), where you landed a four kills in Mustangs. I'm sure you were not fighting 1v1 dogfights.
Thus, I have to say that until you've dueled some top sticks, Jug vs P-51, you really have no idea of how bad or good the P-51s currently are. On the other hand, I have. In the MA, you can run away in the P-51 if you wish. Not so in a duel. At corner speed, the P-51 handles very well. The problem is that duels usually occur at very low altitudes. Eventually, the fight will slow down. When it does, the P-51 cannot out-turn a P-47 flown by a pilot of equal skill.
You will never master a fighter until you can fly it at the edge of its limits, I think everyone will agree with this (those that do not can be written off as dolts). At the low speed limit of its envelope, the P-51 is inferior to almost every mid to late war fighter in the plane set. The drag model update is the cause.
Now for those who don't believe me, I'm in the TA Tuesday thru Thursday evenings. Stop by, grab a P-51 and find out for yourself.
My regards,
Widewing
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Not sure if you said it WW, but I remember reading a post that stated the P-51's turn radius is actually under-modeled in-game?
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Oh I know that. I just find it nothing to look like the Spitfires of old childhood.
Yeah, I prefer the Mk VIII myself.
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Originally posted by Widewing
, At the low speed limit of its envelope, the P-51 is inferior to almost every mid to late war fighter in the plane set. The drag model update is the cause.
Widewing
Thank you!
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when was the drag model updated (rough date please).
cheers
-freezman
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Originally posted by evenhaim
when was the drag model updated (rough date please).
cheers
-freezman
IIRC, the last major FM update was version 2.07, March 2006.
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Originally posted by Karnak
That wouldn't really change the turn radius much. WWII fighters produced such low thrust that it really didn't help them turn much.
That's very, very wrong. Try turn fighting at 80% throttle sometimes. I can strongly feel the difference even between 100% and W.E.P., as can all good pilots. Also, aside from the turn radius, power really helps the turn rate.
Originally posted by Viking
I call BS.
Well, you're a perverse compulsive liar, so it doesn't matter what you think. However, everyone else can look on Mike Williams' excellent site for official documents (photocopies) of 70" Hg. MAP cleared for use on the P-38. There are also documents for similar and higher boosts for other U.S. ships.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
That's very, very wrong. Try turn fighting at 80% throttle sometimes. I can strongly feel the difference even between 100% and W.E.P., as can all good pilots. Also, aside from the turn radius, power really helps the turn rate.
Incorrect. Cutting throttle tightens the turn because you are decelerating, not due to a change in thrust.
The difference between MIL and WEP is mostly in keeping the nose higher. But differences in thrust produced by WWII fighters doesn't tighten or loosen the turn significantly.
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Originally posted by Lusche
IIRC, the last major FM update was version 2.07, March 2006.
ya i seem to remember that period i had a discussion with a squadie a few months ago about wether we thought the update chipped at the pony but i remember our main issue was 50 cals having more of a drop effect and a slight choke on the manouverability but not something dumbfounding or too major IIRC
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The drag FM change that Widewing is referring to occurred at the switch from AH1 to AH2, or the earlier releases of AH2. That's what you've heard us talk about evenhaim regarding the P-51.
Karnak: Here is the turn rate equation as a function of L/D, T/W and V. Both thrust and velocity impact turn rate.
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/eq1-4.jpg)
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by dtango
The drag FM change that Widewing is referring to occurred at the switch from AH1 to AH2, or the earlier releases of AH2. That's what you've heard us talk about evenhaim regarding the P-51.
Karnak: Here is the turn rate equation as a function of L/D, T/W and V. Both thrust and velocity impact turn rate.
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/eq1-4.jpg)
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
That change didn't completely kill the P-51s, but the drag change that correlated to the introduction of the revised Bf 109s was the coup d' grace. I still have AH1 on my machine, so I'll do some testing and report the comparison.
My regards,
Widewing
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I took a few minutes and flew the P-51B at 25% gas and a P-47D-25 with 50% gas and performed some turn radius tests. Both aircraft were flying with full flaps and WEP engaged. Altitude was about 50 feet ASL. I was well into stall buffet in both types, on the ragged edge of an accelerated stall.
Viewing the films, I selected Fixed view and rotated to a view from directly above at max zoom out. I then took screen shots and combined the images for comparison.
The image is below. Note that the Jug, even with more weight of fuel, turns tighter than the P-51B.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/P-51vP-47D-25-TurnRadius.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Well, you're a perverse compulsive liar, so it doesn't matter what you think.
LOL it obviously matters to you or you wouldn't have replied. Oh does that make you a liar? Why yes it does! :lol
I always consider your posts BS. You're always full of BS and nothing but. I don't think you do it on purpose, you just can't help it, being a such a simpleton and all.
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k4
Superb climbing
Superb Acceleration
Above Average TopSpeed
Average Turning when Using FLaps ANd throttle Management
Good Diving When Using Trim
Has Enough Power To go Vertical WHen in a Stallin Scissors with a U4 and come back down with an angle for a kill shot
ANd best of all...
It shoots High Explosive Potatoes :D
This is why I believe the K4 is the best prop plane in the Game :D
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I've had good luck with the K4, and I've seen it do some amazing things (yes, I'm talking about you PhuManChu).
But, the K4 certainly takes some experience and finesse to get the most out of, wouldn't you agree? It's not a plane one can take up for a sortie and dominate in without some flight hours under their belt.
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lol "phumanchu" :lol
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Originally posted by Platano
k4
Superb climbing
Superb Acceleration
Above Average TopSpeed
Average Turning when Using FLaps ANd throttle Management
Good Diving When Using Trim
Has Enough Power To go Vertical WHen in a Stallin Scissors with a U4 and come back down with an angle for a kill shot
ANd best of all...
It shoots High Explosive Potatoes :D
This is why I believe the K4 is the best prop plane in the Game :D
If the -4 isn't, the k4 certainly is. :)
I wish 51's weren't so crummy compared to other late war rides. I enjoy flying them but the disadvantage against late war rides is hard for my meager skills to overcome
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Originally posted by Karnak
Incorrect. Cutting throttle tightens the turn because you are decelerating, not due to a change in thrust.
The difference between MIL and WEP is mostly in keeping the nose higher. But differences in thrust produced by WWII fighters doesn't tighten or loosen the turn significantly.
No, no, no! Cutting the throttle worsens the turn, not only sustained turns but all turns below corner turning speed (which is quite high; for instance, it's 230 M.P.H. for the P-38). It worsens it by a great deal. Adding power greatly enhances the turning ability except for above corner turning speed. And corner turning speed is far from sustainable (unless you make a very, very wide turn that even an idiot can stay inside of).
If you want to see how power affects turning ability, make a sustained turn at best sustained turning speed. This will probably be around 165 M.P.H. for most U.S. ships with a light load. Try it at 80% throttle, then try it at war emergency power. You'll be amazed at how much better it turns with more power. It's why the F4U-4 turns so much better than the other Corsairs.
Originally posted by Viking
You're always full of BS and nothing but. I don't think you do it on purpose, you just can't help it, being a such a simpleton and all.
Hee hee! My simple-mindedness must be the reason I pointed out a link which proves you wrong. You know, you are not scoring many points for the afterlife with all of your deceit and falsehood. But, hey, it's too late for anyone to try to amend your parents' mistakes. Oh, well.
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Afterlife? Are you some kind of religious nut as well as a retard? Of course ... one usually follows the other. Your link does not prove that allied airmen boosted their rides more than was officially allowed. You're still completely full of BS. :lol
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Are you some kind of godless creep as well as a liar? Of course, one usually follows the other.
Originally posted by Viking
Your link does not prove that allied airmen boosted their rides more than was officially allowed.
You are, of course, putting words into my mouth, you smirking, two-faced snake. I said that they boosted them more than the pilot manual numbers were; in fact, I said that those "higher than pilots manual" numbers were official, even if they never made it into the manuals.
Of course, there were also pilots who said that they ran their P-38s at 85". I'm not sure whether to assume that those were, at some point and for some units, officially approved numbers or if they were running unofficial boosts. But I do know that you'd disregard that, like all else, even if the man told you himself. You only believe something if Herr Goebbels tells it to you.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
You are, of course, putting words into my mouth, you smirking, two-faced snake. I said that they boosted them more than the pilot manual numbers were; in fact, I said that those "higher than pilots manual" numbers were official, even if they never made it into the manuals.
So you're saying the pilot's handbook (I assume that's what you meant) of the P-51D was not updated or amended throughout the war? I sincerely believe you're wrong. In any case 100/150 avgas was used by only a few units in the closing months of the war. If you also do some thinking (I know it's hard for you) you'll notice than none of the 1944 planes have their 1945 engines/fuel/boost-level. We don't have the +25 lbs spitfires, Mosquitoes or Mustang III/IV. Nor do we have the +22.5 (or thereabouts) P-51B/C/D. On the other side of the fence we don't have the 2400 hp C3 fueled 109K-4 only the 2000 hp B4 fueled one. Nor do we have the Jumo 213F powered 1945 Fw 190D, only the Jumo 213A-1 powered 1944 version. With the exception of the planes that only entered service in 1945 (Ta 152 for example) none of the planes are modeled with late 1944-45 boost levels, fuel or equipment.
But don't let that stop you from ranting on. It's very entertaining. :lol
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I asked a Spitfire pilot if he flew according to the manual.
Answer was NO. One would break all parameters quoted in the book.
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Yeah, I'm sure everybody did that at one point or another. Hard to quantify for a simulation though.
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I didn't say that it needed to be in the simulator. I simply pointed out that the real pilots often ran them above the numbers in the pilot manuals, to which you replied "B.S." And now you say you're sure that they all did that at some point?
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Originally posted by Viking
In any case 100/150 avgas was used by only a few units in the closing months of the war.
The 8th AF used 150 fuel from mid 1944.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/361st-24june44.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/359th-150grade-1jul44.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/150-fuel-13-june44-b.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html
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Cool.
I am however a bit surprised by the modest increase in engine power: Max 1860 hp on Merlin V-1650-7 with 100/150 fuel. I'm also surprised that according to the P-51 150 octane tests at wwiiaircraftperformance the P-51's max speed at 75" boost (150 octane) was only 431 mph, and at 67" boost the top speed was only 426 mph (both speeds are with wing racks as modeled in AH). Also the best speed altitude dropped to 20,600 feet. Even without wing racks the top speed with 70" boost was only 444 mph. Seems that even without 100/150 fuel the AH Mustang outperforms its real-life counterparts.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-24771-level-blue.jpg
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The special fuel was not necessary to run at those horsepower ratings (even for long periods of time), according to Vees for Victory. However, the higher grade fuel prevented unnecessary wear and tear on the engine. Thus, the higher manifold pressures were only officially recognized once the higher grade fuel was available.
Originally posted by Viking
Seems that even without 100/150 fuel the AH Mustang outperforms its real-life counterparts.
Interesting. It does look that way, at first glance. Regardless, that doesn't address the turning problem. Perhaps if both issues were addressed, the P-51 would actually become a viable dogfighting ship and less of a gun-and-run thing.
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Originally posted by Viking
Cool.
I am however a bit surprised by the modest increase in engine power: Max 1860 hp on Merlin V-1650-7 with 100/150 fuel. I'm also surprised that according to the P-51 150 octane tests at wwiiaircraftperformance the P-51's max speed at 75" boost (150 octane) was only 431 mph, and at 67" boost the top speed was only 426 mph (both speeds are with wing racks as modeled in AH). Also the best speed altitude dropped to 20,600 feet. Even without wing racks the top speed with 70" boost was only 444 mph. Seems that even without 100/150 fuel the AH Mustang outperforms its real-life counterparts.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-24771-level-blue.jpg
Tests will vary with the test facility, for various reasons. Let's put up all of the graphs for comparison.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/na-p51b-150grade-level.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/na-p51b-150grade-climb.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-24771-level-blue.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-24771-climb-blue.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustang-level-150-2.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Viking
Cool.
I am however a bit surprised by the modest increase in engine power: Max 1860 hp on Merlin V-1650-7 with 100/150 fuel. I'm also surprised that according to the P-51 150 octane tests at wwiiaircraftperformance the P-51's max speed at 75" boost (150 octane) was only 431 mph, and at 67" boost the top speed was only 426 mph (both speeds are with wing racks as modeled in AH). Also the best speed altitude dropped to 20,600 feet. Even without wing racks the top speed with 70" boost was only 444 mph. Seems that even without 100/150 fuel the AH Mustang outperforms its real-life counterparts.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-24771-level-blue.jpg
Power curve and torque issue.
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The wing racks as fitted to the P-51B reduced speed by approximately 12mph, however, those fitted to the P-51D reduced speed by 4mph. http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51-tactical-chart.jpg
Neil.
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the F4U is a good plane but the rear veiw is horrable because of the canopy layout so im going with the P-51D on this
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Hey fellas, this thread was labeled Best Prop Plane?
So why are you even discussing the P-51.
1. LA-7 even if it irritates everyone.
2. LA-5FN it doesn't turn any better than the LA-7
3. Spit XVI
4. F4U-4
5. F6F-5
Okay now feel free to bash me for liking "Uber Planes" whatever that means.
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Originally posted by SPARKY8400
the F4U is a good plane but the rear veiw is horrable because of the canopy layout so im going with the P-51D on this
51D is badly outclassed. It's a beauty to look at though!
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Anyone read the classic Alert In The West by Willi Heilmann? As a Staffelkapitan in III./JG 54, it could be said he knew his stuff. This is what he wrote about allied fighters of mid/late 1944.
This was relating to his experience in Western France, before the Green Hearts moved east and got the Dora 9.
"The enemy fighter defence was particularly strong that day, but the most dreaded opponent, the fast, well armed Spitfire, was not so much in eviidence. Not a single Tempest... was to be seen...Mustangs and Lightings were in any case no match for the Focke - provided it was flown by an able pilot. Only the Thunderbolt at great height was something of a headache."
Thought it would be interesting to put forward the opinion of someone who actually fought in combat at the time.
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Originally posted by AKDogg
I killed a formation of b26's in 1 pass with my f4u-1. Came from the high 1:00 clock postion and shot right in the cockpit. Killed all 3 bombers instantly by pilot wound because when u killed 1 bomber, the other warp right where the lead bomber was but the bullets were still flying at him,lol.
Thats what that was. I did that to a guy the other day, and had no idea what had just happened. Now I do, lol.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The P-38J
No doubt :D
#S#
Banshee7 :aok
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F4U-4
Hiya Banshee! :)