Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Husky01 on August 07, 2007, 11:52:51 PM
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Barry Bonds has officially injected him self into history hitting career home run number 756th. The story is here.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-bonds-756&prov=ap&type=lgns
Bonds Rookie Card.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m238/Goldelks/bondstp.jpg)
Barry Bonds now.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m238/Goldelks/bonds327.jpg)
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Ohhh its nothing just a lil "working out"...pftttt
bs
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I smell an asterisk.
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lol
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He thanked everyone but the steroids.:D :rolleyes:
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A milestone whether or not he did it legitimately, I guess.
I've always wanted to try and play professional ball. I never had time for it in high school and never went to college. At 22, I guess I won't be able to break into the game with no schooling. Ah well...
I still try. :D
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how many years between rookie season and the last pic?
guy has not popped positive on a test yet...not found guilty...yet...but because the media says something people all believe it to be fact...lemmings.
He will be in the HOF regardless...if Ty Cobb is there with some of the crap he did...Bonds will be too.
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(http://bp2.blogger.com/_2XdbIDH0Cwg/RrlAOsxtgjI/AAAAAAAACvY/w4ONv3HT6eQ/s400/Screenshot3.jpg)
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Originally posted by killnu
how many years between rookie season and the last pic?
guy has not popped positive on a test yet...not found guilty...yet...but because the media says something people all believe it to be fact...lemmings.
He will be in the HOF regardless...if Ty Cobb is there with some of the crap he did...Bonds will be too.
That card was from 1986 I believe.
You don't think now a days with the money bonds has he cant sneak past drug test? Hell I'm sure there is plenty of stuff out there what wont even show up on test. Theres no way there system is flawless.
Will bonds be in the hall of fame even if he is caught? Ya who knows probably ya o well. But his recored wouldn't stand.
IMOP that kind of body and muscle growth is unbelievable to not be using some kind of drugs.
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hitting homers isnt all about power, plate discipline is a big part and that is something he didnt get from roids. However the record is still bs cause he probably did cheat and hank aaron played when parks were bigger and seasons were shorter.
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Interesting that no one mentions about the possibility of the pitchers using steroids as well.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Interesting that no one mentions about the possibility of the pitchers using steroids as well.
exactly
what about every other professional sport record since the 60's.
steriods are a part of pro sports. why wouldn't they be, why shouldn't they be - if a couple of pills makes the possibility of getting a zillion $$ contract more possible - you'd be stupid not to take them.
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The Bonds Rookie Card is a 1987 Topps. I have a complete set, but I've lost respect for both Bonds and his "God-Father Wille Mays". Each of them "cheated" in their own way. One did it in 1951 for a 1/2 season, the other since 1996.
I turned ESPNews off this AM because they were blowing so much sunshine out of Bonds' arse.
A-Rod will be the next one and will break whatever number Bonds sets. Even more remarkable, he is a SS/3B.
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Will be interesting to see if he makes it to the Hall of Fame on the first ballet. I'm thinking they will make him wait a year or two after he is eligible because of the steroid issue.
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What sort of exercises make your head larger?
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Originally posted by killnu
how many years between rookie season and the last pic?
guy has not popped positive on a test yet...not found guilty...yet...but because the media says something people all believe it to be fact...lemmings.
He will be in the HOF regardless...if Ty Cobb is there with some of the crap he did...Bonds will be too.
True but his strength trainers are both in jail.
Bonds himself under testimony never said he never took steroids.
But that he never "knowingly" took steroids.
Kinda like the guy that tells the cop "I didnt know it was in there" After the cop finds a joint in the car.
Reguardless.
Ruth did it in less games,with a longer feilds, and a less juiced ball, in an era where the players didnt spend half their lives in the weight room.
Far as Im concerned Ruth is still #1, Aaron A close 2 only because of the above.
And I dont want to hear about any negro league.
With all due respects to those players. The Negro League was NOT the official MLB
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(http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/04/04/1144166991_0860.jpg)
(http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/RCbos_RChou.jpg)
Nevermind that the Rocket has a head the size of a Rottweiler's nowadays (rolls eyes)
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Originally posted by killnu
how many years between rookie season and the last pic?
guy has not popped positive on a test yet...not found guilty...yet...but because the media says something people all believe it to be fact...lemmings.
He will be in the HOF regardless...if Ty Cobb is there with some of the crap he did...Bonds will be too.
And Gaylord Perry, as well. Interesting how on one hand most of the posters in this thread lambast the "evil liberal media" but are sucking in the teat of the antichrist media when people like Costas goes after someone everyone generally hates.
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Originally posted by Eagler
if a couple of pills makes the possibility of getting a zillion $$ contract more possible - you'd be stupid not to take them.
wow, thats the most foolish thing I've seen in a while. But then again, they helped greats such as Lyle Alzado, right?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
True but his strength trainers are both in jail.
Bonds himself under testimony never said he never took steroids.
But that he never "knowingly" took steroids.
Kinda like the guy that tells the cop "I didnt know it was in there" After the cop finds a joint in the car.
Reguardless.
Ruth did it in less games,with a longer feilds, and a less juiced ball, in an era where the players didnt spend half their lives in the weight room.
Far as Im concerned Ruth is still #1, Aaron A close 2 only because of the above.
And I dont want to hear about any negro league.
With all due respects to those players. The Negro League was NOT the official MLB
lack of relief pitchers (2/3'rds of his HRs came after the 6th inning, I'll find the source when I have time)
lack of "specialty" pitchers or "one batter" guys in the bullpen
With all due respect, as a high-profile athlete, Babe Ruth would have been suspended multiple times and eventually thrown out of baseball for violating the substance abuse policy if he were playing today. Not to mention countless fines for missing practice, missing curfew (See TO,Shockey, Rodman, Darryl Strayberry, Dwight Gooden...)
Or, would you look the other way and give him a pass, because you know he'd fill seats when the Yankees came to town?
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I stopped being a baseball fan when they went on strike. Since then, I'll catch a game here and there...I'd prefer to watch the local college/high school teams.
These guys, to me, are just sellouts. Big dollars, mediocre performance and shameless excuses for their steroid needs.
Part of me hoped someone like Yaz would walk onto the field and whup his butt :)
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Nevermind that the Rocket has a head the size of a Rottweiler's nowadays (rolls eyes)
The purpose of steroids is to repair your body. Clemens on steroids? If he WAS, he wouldn't have been pitching a 1/2 of a season for the last couple of years. He'd have started the whole season.
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I've always wondered that, CAN steroids help pitchers? Not sure if being able to bench 350 can help your 90+ mph curve break any meaner? Some of the best fast-ballers all tall skinny guys--David Wells sure didnt think 'roids help pitchers
There are guys in the game only because of steroids. They couldn't make it with their natural talent, so they had to enhance themselves. It sucks.
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BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :mad: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:mad: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:furious BOOOOOOOOOOOOO:furious
Hank Aaron Forever:aok ........Barry Bonds NEVER!!!:furious
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Originally posted by FBBone
wow, thats the most foolish thing I've seen in a while. But then again, they helped greats such as Lyle Alzado, right?:rolleyes:
moderation
have you ever tried them?
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(http://howardlindzon.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/att00413.thumbnail.jpg)
have a bonds rookie card i will sell ya real cheap:D
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Originally posted by Eagler
moderation
have you ever tried them?
If I had, I'd be a zillionaire, right? So, no, I haven't. How about you? Have the 'roids in moderation helped you any?
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Originally posted by bj229r
I've always wondered that, CAN steroids help pitchers? Not sure if being able to bench 350 can help your 90+ mph curve break any meaner? Some of the best fast-ballers all tall skinny guys--David Wells sure didnt think 'roids help pitchers
They're not going to really add speed to the pitch unless you're chewing them down like a WWF wrestler. Look out the Tour De France guys for example. Absolutely riddeled with performance enhancers (blood doping, steroids, you name it), but they've got the build of a lamp pole.
What steroids really does is help you recover fast so you can train more. An example of that would be MMA fighters. They're in the gym 5 days a week. The carrot they're chasing is large fight purses and potential multi-million dollar pay-per-view revunes. If you go into a fight with a nagging injury, you're probably going to get owned.. and your career is out the window because the fans do not tolerate losers (very entertaining losers only slightly longer).
I think the steroid thing is overblown.. If you have a torn muscle, you're allowed to take pain killers.. but not something to actually help repair the tear? Makes no sense. Only reason for it is because people have heavily abused steroid and gone crazy (Chris Benoit recently) and cast a cloud of fear over it... but abuse of perscriptions happens with any drugs, and not just steroids, so it's pretty irrational.
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bisball be very very good to me.
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Originally posted by weazely
Ohhh its nothing just a lil "working out"...pftttt
bs
Agreed.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
I'd hit it!
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Originally posted by bj229r
What sort of exercises make your head larger?
I also read where his foot size increased something like 2 full sizes larger.
I can understand a width increase but length?
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(http://cache.consumerist.com/consumer/images/smiling_bob-thumb.jpg)
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I thought Casino Royale was a damn good flick. Saved the Series if you ask me. I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment.
Oh, hey, did you hear the Nationals beat the Giants last night?
-Sik
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I saw Bonds hit one out of Dodger stadium in '92. He had an exceptional eye and swing. I know that the roids has helped him, but I also know quite a few roid user muscle guys that couldnt hit a tennis ball with a frying pan. He had the gift long before he beefed up, but I will always see his accomplishment and somewhat tainted. His HR's went up drastically after he beefed up!
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Originally posted by FBBone
wow, thats the most foolish thing I've seen in a while. But then again, they helped greats such as Lyle Alzado, right?:rolleyes:
No, that's reality.
Multimillion dollar contracts are driven by performance (usually).
Steroids help repair muscle damage as well as decrease recovery time.
For every Lyle Alzado, there are probably more than a thousand athletes out there that are benefiting physically from steroids.
Eagler's just speaking of reality, not the morals of it.
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Originally posted by killnu
how many years between rookie season and the last pic?
guy has not popped positive on a test yet...not found guilty...yet...but because the media says something people all believe it to be fact...lemmings.
He admitted to the grand jury he used steroids, said he thought it was the “cream" and the "clear" said he didn’t know it was steroids…Well the last I checked ignores of the law is no defense ....Sounds like proof to me. The use of steroids in this country is a crime.
and you think OJ is innocenct too?
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Originally posted by Kaw1000
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :mad: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:mad: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:furious BOOOOOOOOOOOOO:furious
Hank Aaron Forever:aok ........Barry Bonds NEVER!!!:furious
Thats the way to think about it!!!!:D
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Originally posted by weazely
Thats the way to think about it!!!!:D
Ageed!!
Bonds name should never go in the books aterik or not.
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Originally posted by JBA
He admitted to the grand jury he used steroids, said he thought it was the “cream" and the "clear" said he didn’t know it was steroids…Well the last I checked ignores of the law is no defense ....Sounds like proof to me. The use of steroids in this country is a crime.
and you think OJ is innocenct too?
Did he actually admit to it or did he admit that he thought the creams/oils he was using wasn't steroids?
He claimed he thought they were flaxseed oil I think.
Now we all can jump to conclusions based on circumstances.
Personally I think he did use them as I think MOST of the professional baseball players used them).
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Babe Ruth is the real and only true home run king.
Bonds is a steroid pushing lummox that should never be in the HOF to begin with
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Check out the graph (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/sports/20070731_BONDS_GRAPHIC.html)
Hank Aaron was consistently among the top of the top HR hitters throughout his career.
Both Bonds and Sosa are among the bottom then magically become the top well past what should be their primes.
I'd say it's extremely suspect.
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[size=100]* [/size]
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I am not sure steriods were against the rules in the years in question, and they definitely weren't tested for. If anyone is to blame for the problems of steriods in MLB, it is MLB at the top, not the players. MLB knew this stuff was going on & didn't do anything about it. The owners just wanted to fill stadiums up with home run hitting machines.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
With all due respect, as a high-profile athlete, Babe Ruth would have been suspended multiple times and eventually thrown out of baseball for violating the substance abuse policy if he were playing today. Not to mention countless fines for missing practice, missing curfew (See TO,Shockey, Rodman, Darryl Strayberry, Dwight Gooden...)
Or, would you look the other way and give him a pass, because you know he'd fill seats when the Yankees came to town?
Cant argue a single point with you there cept the substances he abused wouldnt have inhanced his performance but rather hindered it.
And performance enhancing substance abuse is what we are talking about here. Not being a lush at the plate
In spite of all his abuses he still managed to swat the ball and it is possible there are about 70 some odd homeruns he didnt get and should have because of the "when last seen" rule that was in efect at the time.
Back in those days not only did the ball have to cross over the fence in fair territory. but also had to ramain in fair territory once it did
"Prior to 1931, a ball that bounced over an outfield fence during a major league game was considered a home run. The rule was changed to require the ball to clear the fence on the fly, and balls that reached the seats on a bounce became ground rule doubles in most parks.
Also, until approximately that time, the ball had to not only go over the fence in fair territory, but to land in the bleachers in fair territory or to still be visibly fair when disappearing behind a wall. The rule stipulated "fair when last seen" by the umpires. Photos from that era in ballparks, such as the Polo Grounds and Yankee Stadium, show ropes strung from the foul poles to the back of the bleachers, or a second "foul pole" at the back of the bleachers, in a straight line with the foul line, as a visual aid for the umpire. Ballparks still use a visual aid much like the ropes; a net or screen attached to the foul poles on the fair side has replaced ropes. As with American football, where a touchdown once required a literal "touch down" of the ball in the end zone but now only requires the "breaking of the [vertical] plane" of the goal line, in baseball the ball need only "break the plane" of the fence in fair territory.
Babe Ruth's 60th home run in 1927 was somewhat controversial, because it landed barely in fair territory in the stands down the right field line. Ruth lost a number of home runs in his career due to the when-last-seen rule. Bill Jenkinson, in The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs, estimates that Ruth lost at least 50 and as many as 78 in his career due to this rule.
Further, the rules once stipulated that an over-the-fence home run in a sudden-victory situation would only count for as many bases as was necessary to "force" the winning run home. For example, if a team trailed by two runs with the bases loaded, and the batter hit a fair ball over the fence, it only counted as a triple, because the runner immediately ahead of him had technically already scored the game-winning run. That rule was changed in the 1920s as home runs became increasingly frequent and popular. Babe Ruth's career total of 714 would have been one higher had that rule not been in effect in the early part of his career."
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Let all the athletes use em...makes me no nevermond...they wanna juice up and bulk up and all...fine..have at it....when thier all dead in thier mid fifties....Oh well.
As a spectator I just like to watch the game....Football being my favorite.
I could care less if athletes are juicing. If a record is in question , like this one is , then put it by the record.
Bonds 756+ *
Aaron 755
*denotes steriod use.
Same for Football. Same for basketball. Same for any sport here.
They know the risk....if they choose to push the limits...let em go. What do I care as long as the game stays the same in how its played. The players can do whatever.
They are all spoiled prmodonas in my opinion anyway
150 million for 7 years....AINT NOONE that friking good.
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Originally posted by bj229r
What sort of exercises make your head larger?
Playing in the MA seems too.
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steroids are commonly used in medicine to promote tissue repair and growth; though medical doses can be as much as 100x lower than what an athlete would use. Of course, when you use them on a healthy body, and work out, it repairs the torn muscle tissue faster and larger, allowing for greater strength. Also there are different types of steriods. I believe alot of pitching power comes from the legs, which would probably benefit from extra strength.
If you think it is all worth it to take roids, get a huge forehead, become sterile, increase your risk for cancer, give yourself acne, increase risk of heart attack, stroke, kidney problems, stunted growth (for younger population), and roid rage.....have a good time. Personally, I don't think roids are good for baseball, nor the fans, and kids who may look up to these athletes. However, in a society driven by money, it only makes sense to set aside all the negatives for the dollar and a trip to the HoF.
Cheating is in every sport, always has, always will. It's just now instead of sneaking in items like corked bats and doctoring baseballs, we are messing with our body.
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Originally posted by Jappa52
(http://howardlindzon.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/att00413.thumbnail.jpg)
have a bonds rookie card i will sell ya real cheap:D
LOL!!!
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Amazing that if you look at Aaron's stats you see that throughout most of his career he hit either in the high 20's to the mid 40's (47 tops in 1971) in home runs.
Bonds was on a similar track and actually hitting more than Aaron on the average during his prime career days. Until you know that one amazing season from going 37 in 1998, 34 in 1999, 49 in 2000, 73 in 2001, and back down to 46 in 2002.
I could rant on baseball for hours. I mean I grew up with it, collected the cards, played it all the way through high school. But I lost all interest and respect in MLB at the strike in the mid 90's.
Stats for Bonds: http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml
Stats for Aaron: http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/aaronha01.shtml
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Bonds is a pile of cowdung.
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It doesn't count if you're on drugs.
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Originally posted by Fulmar
Amazing that if you look at Aaron's stats you see that throughout most of his career he hit either in the high 20's to the mid 40's (47 tops in 1971) in home runs.
Bonds was on a similar track and actually hitting more than Aaron on the average during his prime career days. Until you know that one amazing season from going 37 in 1998, 34 in 1999, 49 in 2000, 73 in 2001, and back down to 46 in 2002.
I could rant on baseball for hours. I mean I grew up with it, collected the cards, played it all the way through high school. But I lost all interest and respect in MLB at the strike in the mid 90's.
Stats for Bonds: http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml
Stats for Aaron: http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/aaronha01.shtml
Fulmar,
good data. Do you see anything where they recorded most of Ruth's HRs coming in later innings? I can;t find the source but it was on ESPN a few weeks ago. They talked about no relief pitchers, etc...
Drediock (sic), Gooden and Strawberry never took performance enhancing drugs, and they paid a heavy price for it. Ask LT if cocaine is a performance enhancing drug :)
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Fulmar,
good data. Do you see anything where they recorded most of Ruth's HRs coming in later innings? I can;t find the source but it was on ESPN a few weeks ago. They talked about no relief pitchers, etc...
They'll say ANYTHING to keep their "Poster Boy" Barry Bonds as their marketing ploy.
Barry Bonds has not even a quarter of the talent that Ruth did. I'm calling BS on ESPN's "theory", only way to know is by scorecards, and I GUARANTEE more than 3/4's of the games don't have one to refer to.
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Originally posted by Flatbar
I also read where his foot size increased something like 2 full sizes larger.
I can understand a width increase but length?
Growth hormone. Your long bones stop growing at puberty but the bone in your hands, feet and face can continue to grow. People with excess growth hormone as a child get very tall. As adults, they get large hands and feet, larger head and a very prominent jaw and eyebrow ridge. On Sunday night football, take a look at Madden's face and hands compared to Al Michaels when they're sitting together.
Many athletes take human growth hormone because it increases muscle mass. It's also practically undetectable by current doping tests.
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I think that the Major League Baseball should recognize Josh Gibson as the all time leader.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I think that the Major League Baseball should recognize Josh Gibson as the all time leader.
Agree.
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Originally posted by LePaul
I stopped being a baseball fan when they went on strike.
I stopped when they lowered the mound.
That's when baseball stopped.
I don't know what to call they do today.
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Originally posted by pluck
Cheating is in every sport, always has, always will. It's just now instead of sneaking in items like corked bats and doctoring baseballs, we are messing with our body.
Did you (or anyone) by any chance catch Mythbuster's last night? They did some tests with corked bats... The results were surprising to say the least (I smell a "re-do").
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Originally posted by bj229r
I've always wondered that, CAN steroids help pitchers? Not sure if being able to bench 350 can help your 90+ mph curve break any meaner? Some of the best fast-ballers all tall skinny guys--David Wells sure didnt think 'roids help pitchers
Well, they say most of your power comes from the legs.
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Oh, and about Bonds, he deserves the record. Tom House said they were injecting stuff they wouldn't give horses back in the early 70's(ironic that he caught Hank Aaron's 715th home run), so who knows who was taking them.
They juiced the ball, they pulled in the fences, and they perfected steroids. Baseball was more than happy to see it, it was bringing baseball back to the prominence. The sports writers new, you think they said anything? Hell no, it was giving them alot to write about(especially the the die hard baseball writers).
Everyone was doing them is not an excuse, it's just the way it was. You think Lenny Dykstra would have been as good without them? I don't see an asterisk next to the Mets world series win.
Bond is an easy target because he is not liked by many in baseball, even his teamates(demanded his own locker, big screen TV, etc) and he toppled a very sacred record. But hating him is not a reason to put an asterisk next to his record. If you are going to do that you might as well put an asterisk next to baseball itself.
What bothers me the most is that he never came clean, but that's his arrogant selfish nature.
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In my mind no one is better than Ruth. Think of how many more he would have hit had he not been a pitcher at the start of his career. Also, Aaron and Bonds have the advantage of living at a time where more was known about fitness. Today theres all these things (legal and not) that can be taken to help playes perform and heal. Ruth's idea of a health snack was whiskey and a hot dog.
As far as pitchers taking steroids, they are under less pressure to do so because, as many of them know, it wont do much for velocity and on top of that, pitching at 105mph doesnt mean anything if you cant keep a guy off balance. MLB hitters could hit a ball goin 200mph if they knew it was coming. And people were right to think that power comes from the legs when pitching. If you watch a film of say Nolan Ryan you can see him push off the front of the rubber to get more power. then watch a slower pitcher, i.e. Tim Wakefield, and you will notice that he does not do this. Strong arms have little to do with it. In H.S. I had a weak arm, couldnt bench the bar:D, but i could hit the upper 80's without much effort(my best was 88mph on the gun and that was a cutter).I could however leg press 1700lbs and was an offensive lineman for the football team. Leg strength is the key along with proper weight transfer. Roids could help by helping the muscle repair after an outing allowing the player to pitch again sooner.
and a few side notes:
-Clemens isn't juiced hes just a fat old man.
-I've never seen a 90mph curveball (as was mentioned earlier)
-Parks today are smaller.
-Seasons are longer.
-More teams = less talented players meaning better players have inflated stats
-Yaz was a butt hole
-Babe Ruth was a Pitcher early in his career( a good one too)
-what does this mean :noid ?
Bottom Line: Bonds sucks
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Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
In my mind no one is better than Ruth. Think of how many more he would have hit had he not been a pitcher at the start of his career. Also, Aaron and Bonds have the advantage of living at a time where more was known about fitness. Today theres all these things (legal and not) that can be taken to help playes perform and heal. Ruth's idea of a health snack was whiskey and a hot dog.
As far as pitchers taking steroids, they are under less pressure to do so because, as many of them know, it wont do much for velocity and on top of that, pitching at 105mph doesnt mean anything if you cant keep a guy off balance. MLB hitters could hit a ball goin 200mph if they knew it was coming. And people were right to think that power comes from the legs when pitching. If you watch a film of say Nolan Ryan you can see him push off the front of the rubber to get more power. then watch a slower pitcher, i.e. Tim Wakefield, and you will notice that he does not do this. Strong arms have little to do with it. In H.S. I had a weak arm, couldnt bench the bar:D, but i could hit the upper 80's without much effort(my best was 88mph on the gun and that was a cutter).I could however leg press 1700lbs and was an offensive lineman for the football team. Leg strength is the key along with proper weight transfer. Roids could help by helping the muscle repair after an outing allowing the player to pitch again sooner.
and a few side notes:
-Clemens isn't juiced hes just a fat old man.
-I've never seen a 90mph curveball (as was mentioned earlier)
-Parks today are smaller.
-Seasons are longer.
-More teams = less talented players meaning better players have inflated stats
-Yaz was a butt hole
-Babe Ruth was a Pitcher early in his career( a good one too)
-what does this mean :noid ?
Bottom Line: Bonds sucks
It all evens out. What if this, what if that. What if the pitchers in Ruth's era also studied their craft and physical fitness?
Steroids help a pitcher recover between outings.
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What SHOULD happen to a player in his laste 30's is he can't get around on a high inside fastball anymore--Ripken's fate. When I was a kid--60's/70's, 37..38, you were done (Unless you were a non-fastball pitcher, Ryan aside) NOW, these guy's careers are TAKING off in their late 30's...when their body's peak was in their 20's. Has anyone ever heard of an exercise regimen that Bonds has been undergoing similar to Nolan Ryan? I know his trainer got busted....
(http://espn.go.com/media/radio/2004/1203/photo/bondspirates_i.jpg)
(http://espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/barry_bonds2.jpg)
(http://www.asstastic.org/images/headshots/bonds87.jpg)
(http://www.asstastic.org/images/headshots/bonds04.jpg)
this is 1991:
(http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/mlb/2004/1203/photo/1991.jpg)
1996:
(http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/mlb/2004/1203/photo/1996.jpg)
2003:(http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/mlb/2004/1203/photo/2003.jpg)
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should classify players like race cars, stock, semi stock, and modified,
hahaha.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
It all evens out. What if this, what if that. What if the pitchers in Ruth's era also studied their craft and physical fitness?
Good point, as time has gone by new pitches have been developed. What if Baba Ruth had to deal with a forkball? Alot of pitchers have reinvented themselves after developing the forkball, Clemens and Schilling come to mind. Alot of science has gone into developing new pitches, Greg Maddox had an arsenal of pitches that could move just about any direction.
Steroids help a pitcher recover between outings.
And as I mentioned before, it can strenghten your legs, where most of your power comes from. If you are a pitcher and you are working the muscles in your upper body, you are probably wasting your time. If you work the muscles that drive off the rubber, then it would stand to reason you would generate more power to your pitches.
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Originally posted by bj229r
W
this is 1991:
(http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/mlb/2004/1203/photo/1991.jpg)
1996:
(http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/mlb/2004/1203/photo/1996.jpg)
2003:(http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/mlb/2004/1203/photo/2003.jpg)
Notice the "elbow armor" Bonds began wearing in the early 90's?
Read this, (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797) and tell me if you don't agree that this type of hardware should be banned...
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by bj229r
When I was a kid--60's/70's, 37..38, you were done (Unless you were a non-fastball pitcher, Ryan aside)
Or Yastremski... 44
Or Reggie Jackson... 41
Or George Brett .. 40
Or Gaylord Perry ... 44
Or Pete Rose ... 45
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Or Yastremski... 44
Or Reggie Jackson... 41
Or George Brett .. 40
Or Gaylord Perry ... 44
Or Pete Rose ... 45
And every one of them was hitting like in low 200's at the end, and Perry was a pitcher. Brett was RUINing his lifetime batting average the last couple years. Final year was like .266, for a lifetime 300+ hitter...point is, was ANY of these guys at the top of the league in ANY stat at these ages?
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Fulmar,
Drediock (sic), Gooden and Strawberry never took performance enhancing drugs, and they paid a heavy price for it. Ask LT if cocaine is a performance enhancing drug :)
But again I mention that this discussion doesnt have anything to do with recreational drugs or booze.
But rather the use of performance enhancing drugs
Ruth, and arguabley Strawberry, Gooden and LT did what they did in spite of the use of things that might have hampered their performance.
They werent using these things to help them play better.
Steroids users, use them to actualy perform better.
Therin lies the difference
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Originally posted by bj229r
And every one of them was hitting like in low 200's at the end, ...
Brett hit 266 (High 200's) in his last year, Reggie was a career 262 hitter, so a last year of 220 was not that much of a down year for him.
Plenty of 24 yr olds hit in the low 200's in the last year of their career. That's why it is the end of their career.
Age is not the issue, generally, but seeing a vast improvement in one's abilities ala Bonds in his late thirties certainly is an anomaly worthy of heavy suspicion.
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I think all armor except the batting helmet should be banned for batters. If you have no fear of getting hit, there's nothing to keep you off the plate.
Ah well, this week HAS brought SOMETHING that everyone can agree on as a feel-good story for the game, and something POSITIVE to take the spotlight off of Bonds:
Rick Ankiel, who began his career as one of the best prospective lefties in all of baseball (mid-90s fastball with killer movement and one of the most devastating curveballs in the game) before control over his pitches inexplicably collapsed entirely in the 2000 playoffs, made his return last night in St. Louis as the starting Right Fielder, and provided the Cards' bullpen with a much needed cushion when he hit a three-run dinger in the 7th to push the score to 5-0. It's the end of a 6-year struggle to find his way back to the majors after battling control problems, injury and his own confidence (I was there last night, and almost got teary-eyed during the standing ovation at his first at-bat, and the curtain call after he lost the ball in right field).
On behalf of baseball fans everywhere, and all Cardinals fans in particular, welcome back, Rick.
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ive got 14 of those rookie cards any buyers lol have a complete set lotta steriods came out of that group of rookies.
Steriods been around for yrs in baseball all of the sudden someone who uses them well accussed then everyone is all up in arms..
red tail you exactly right why no one thinks a over 40 yr old pitcher who was washed up in boston all of the sudden becomes 20 again bothers the heck out of me.
thing is why bash them know when even our pres over looked steriods when he owned the rangers....
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Originally posted by tatertot
why bash them know when even our pres overlooked steriods when he owned the rangers....
:rolleyes:
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there is obviously no legitimate way that anyone can put on muscle mass over 14 years...:rolleyes:
Karaya...no talent? what exactly are you smoking? even before the accusations...lets say pre 2000...where I got my 14 years from...multiple MVPs...well on his way to only 500/500 player in baseball history...gold gloves, etc... He has talent...and has had talent his whole career.
If the leaked grand jury testimony was enough to convict him...dont you think they would have done it prior to him breaking the record? I sure do.
I am still unsure if he did or did not use...but I refuse to convict him of doing just because the media said so. If he worked out, tough regime, trainer and all...there is no reason to believe that he could not pack on some muscle over 14 years...heck, I seen people put on 20 pounds over a summer, about 3 months, by having a good diet and working out religiously. As far as the head thing...my hat size has gotten bigger over the last 10 years...I use to where a 6 1/2 to 6 3/4, now I am up to 7 1/2 to 7 3/4....guess my fat, out of shame, beer swilling butt is on roids now...lol
If they decide to asterik it...they are opening up a can of worms for the everyone who has played the last 10 years or so, at least. I would expect to see quite a few more asteriks in the books...
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The hard part for me with the home run record vs pitchers who might have juiced it is that the game has more and more been changed to benefit the hitter.
The Pitcher no longer has many of the advantages they had before.
The inside of the plate is a no-no now. The mound was lowered. Batters are armored up so that they can hang over the plate so the outside corner is less of a factor.
Everything has been geared towards scoring runs including the baseballs themselves.
756 now is not 756 in the 1930s or even the 1960s and early 70s. And I also like to remember that guys like Dimaggio and Williams lost all those years to WW2 which were the prime of their careers. Who knows what they might have done had they not missed those 3-4 years of their prime.
Watch some of the old film of Mantle or Mays or any of the 50s and 60s hitters. Half the time they're bailing out of the batters box because they can't dig in. The pitchers owned the inside half.
To be a hitter then was a much tougher job then now I believe.
Of the magic numbers this last week I think the one that was the bigger accomplishment was Glavine's 300th win, a much tougher accomplishment these days then hitting that many home runs.
One look at him and I'd be hard pressed to say he was juiced.