Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Panzzer on August 10, 2007, 06:31:48 AM
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The beautiful Japan terrain now in the Axis vs Allies arena with the following setup.
RAIN OF FIRE
After three and a half bloody years of savage combat on beaches, in jungles, on the seas and in the skies, the Allies at last are poised on the doorstep of Japan. By night, the full horror of their vengeance is visited on the islands' inhabitants as the mighty B-29s burn their cities to cinders. By day, the blue carrier planes and the silver long-range American fighters bomb and strafe the few remaining targets of significance.
Both sides know that the final amphibious assault of the war - the campaign that will cost a million American lives, and will destroy Japanese civilization forever - is only a few weeks away.
ALLIES (Knights)
On carriers:
F6F-5 (all carriers)
F4U-1C (C77, C89)
F4U-1D (all carriers)
F4U-4 (C79, C90, C92, C95, C97)
FM2 (all carriers)
Seafire IIC (C78, C93, C99)
TBM (all carriers)
At air starts (A88, A122):
P-38L
P-47N
P-51D
B-24J (pretend it's a B-29)
AXIS (Bishops)
A6M5b
Ki-61
Ki-84
N1K2-J
B5N2
D3A1
Ki-67
M-16
Ostwind
(Note Axis air start is at A119)
NOTE ON AIR STARTS:
Look for the blue boxes out in the ocean. Each is associated with a land base (for Allies, typically on the bottom edge of the map). Each blue box has one square filled in. Go to the associated land base and take off in the direction of the filled-in box.
Note that each of the land bases has several air starts. (For example, if an Allied player takes off from A122's north runway, he will begin in Sector 8,1; if he takes off to the northeast, he will begin in 12,1; to the northwest, at Sector 4,1.)
You will begin high in the sky, by the blue box, with your gear down and your engine off. Remember to take care of those two things promptly.
The Japanese air starts are governed by A119, in Sector 6,12. The Allied air starts are at A88 (0,0) and A122 (8,0).
For playability purposes, Allied aircraft can land at A3. However, all aircraft are disabled at that base, so you cannot begin flight from there.
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IMO when you do late war Japan you need to narrow it to JUST air force or navy, not a mix of both.
There are too many late-war 1945 planes on the US side vs no 1945 planes on the IJA/N side (and only 2 1944 planes, the rest being from '43 and before -- I mean, c'mon, a 1940s B5N2 against an F4U-4?)
I say either do USAF vs Japan, or do USN vs Japan, but that putting almost every plane the US had to offer against a very pathetic Japanese lineup isn't a very good idea.
I know it's all we've got in this game, but working with the tools at hand (the planeset at hand) I think the setup should be balanced based on what is available.
Discuss.
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I don't know but call me crazy! Shouldn't you wait till the Japanese plane set is a little more filled out? I mean this is mid war Japan vs late war U.S. I predict lots of chirping crikets in the aVa this week.
That's nice... B24 air starts... o.k. maybe not crickets chirping just alot of one sided porking.
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Originally posted by VWE
I don't know but call me crazy! Shouldn't you wait till the Japanese plane set is a little more filled out? I mean this is mid war Japan vs late war U.S. I predict lots of chirping crikets in the aVa this week.
Filled out with what? The best Japanese fighters available during the war are in the plane set.
My regards,
Widewing
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The only japanese planes in the war are enabled, because we have a very small selection.
My post brought up the suggestion: If it's so unbalanced, so lop-sided, why not limit the allies to just USAAF or USN? Why compound the existing problem inherrent in AH's planeset by dogpiling every US plane in the war (except the f4f-4 and p40b/e) onto the already minimal IJA/N selection?
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Originally posted by Widewing
Filled out with what? The best Japanese fighters available during the war are in the plane set.
My regards,
Widewing
What he said. NIKIs and Ki84s are available right? No US plane can play with them cept the F4U4 but only because it can disengage and try to get the advantage.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Filled out with what?
A few loaner 163s should make things interesting.:t
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Originally posted by dedalos
What he said. NIKIs and Ki84s are available right? No US plane can play with them cept the F4U4 but only because it can disengage and try to get the advantage.
Er.... you don't get out much, right? :D
Every late war US plane is a match for both the Ki84 and the N1k2. F4us and F6Fs can turn fight 'em, 51s can energy fight 'em, 38s can turn AND energy fight 'em.
Basically the Japanese get shafted in this planeset.
EDIT: I'm not saying it's a total loss, I'm saying it's overkill.
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Originally posted by Krusty
IMO when you do late war Japan you need to narrow it to JUST air force or navy, not a mix of both.
There are too many late-war 1945 planes on the US side vs no 1945 planes on the IJA/N side (and only 2 1944 planes, the rest being from '43 and before -- I mean, c'mon, a 1940s B5N2 against an F4U-4?)
I say either do USAF vs Japan, or do USN vs Japan, but that putting almost every plane the US had to offer against a very pathetic Japanese lineup isn't a very good idea.
I know it's all we've got in this game, but working with the tools at hand (the planeset at hand) I think the setup should be balanced based on what is available.
Discuss.
...er....
We played this setup a month or so ago. In practice, the air starts for the Army planes are far enough away from Japan that the Allied players typically fly from the carriers. Would like to see a Filth-type mission with the 24s and 47s or 51s though, because the capability for an organized high-alt mission are clearly there.
I think the Frank and George are more than capable against any and all the Allied planes. While this particular setup is relatively new, we've run the Okinawa map for years with full 1945 plane sets, and the Japanese players have never felt overwhelmed. The fights tend to be very well balanced, with a lot of fun close-in twisty stuff.
Come try it, see what you think.
- oldman
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The last scenario I did, Operation Downfall
I was a Zeke pilot and we kicked the ever loving crap out of the allies with the "limited" plane selection we had.
Even though the b 24s air spawned in at 25k.
So im not so sure it will be lopsided at all!
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No, you nearly-suicide-bombed the CVs out of the event.
YOU (axis) got your butts handed to you, plane for plane.
Frame1:
Allied Pilots: 105 Kills: 343 Assists: 246
Axis Pilots: 140 Kills: 187 Assists: 128
Frame2:
Allied Pilots: 99 Kills: 194 Assists: 74
Axis Pilots: 100 Kills: 169 Assists: 57
Frame3:
Allied Pilots: 73 Kills: 132 Assists: 106
Axis Pilots: 81 Kills: 159 Assists: 39
Downfall was called off because the CVs were gone, not because of axis "kicking the allies' butts."
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Originally posted by stockli
The last scenario I did, Operation Downfall
I was a Zeke pilot and we kicked the ever loving crap out of the allies with the "limited" plane selection we had.
Even though the b 24s air spawned in at 25k.
So im not so sure it will be lopsided at all!
Yea... no comment.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Krusty
Er.... you don't get out much, right? :D
Every late war US plane is a match for both the Ki84 and the N1k2. F4us and F6Fs can turn fight 'em, 51s can energy fight 'em, 38s can turn AND energy fight 'em.
Basically the Japanese get shafted in this planeset.
EDIT: I'm not saying it's a total loss, I'm saying it's overkill.
I think you confuse your feelings about a plane and your country with the reallity of this game.
51s dont E fight. They BnZ and extend. Thats not E fighting. Probably the best E fighting plane in the game is the Ki84 followed by the NIKI. The NIKI can E fight and will out turn F4Us, F6Fs, 51s, 38s etc. And dont forget the 0s. You get jumped while slow by one of them and its all over.
P38 cannot turn with them. It can try to E fight if it started with the advantage but at equal E, both the NIKI and Ki84 will kill it.
If anything, I'd say desable the 51s and F4U4s so the cherry pickers don't have any tools to work with or they cannot run to the ack after they fail to pick.
We can try all this if you like
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Oh brother... No comment. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by dedalos
If anything, I'd say desable the 51s and F4U4s so the cherry pickers don't have any tools to work with or they cannot run to the ack after they fail to pick.
We can try all this if you like
Hmm not to stir the pot anymore than it already is.
Ded take that nik or 84 and go up against Widewing in a 4hog.
There is no need to pick in a 4hog.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Hmm not to stir the pot anymore than it already is.
Ded take that nik or 84 and go up against Widewing in a 4hog.
There is no need to pick in a 4hog.
Bronk
Well, the F4U-4 has the edge because it can pick and choose how and when it engages. However, even with full flaps out it can't out-turn a well flown Niki. Moreover, the Ki-84 would be a hard fight if flown by someone like Dedalos.
I would not be unhappy flying the Niki or Ki-84 against the -4, if I could suck him into a low-speed vertical fight.
Actually, I'd be far more wary of cherry picking Chogs than the F4U-4. Four Hispanos are extremely lethal, only needing a couple of hits to knock you down.
My regards,
Widewing
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The Japanese plane set is full you say? So where are these aircraft in the hanger, maybe I'm looking in the wrong place...
Mitsubishi J2M Raiden
Yokosuka MXY7 Ohka
Mitsubishi G4M
Yokosuka P1Y Ginga
Kawasaki Ki-100
Kawasaki Ki-45
Nakajima Ki-43
Nakajima Ki-44
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Originally posted by Bronk
Hmm not to stir the pot anymore than it already is.
Ded take that nik or 84 and go up against Widewing in a 4hog.
There is no need to pick in a 4hog.
Bronk
Ahhh, you got me all wrong. I did not say that the plane makes you cherry pick. I said don't give the cherry pickers the tools to cherry pick. I am not talking about the guys that will take the F4U4 into a fight. We all know who I am talking about. Do you need names? You know who the cherry pros of AvA are.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Oh brother... No comment. :rolleyes:
Well, you could say lets try it. Maybe I am wrong :D I am whilling to show you why I think I am right. Are you?
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Originally posted by Widewing
Well, the F4U-4 has the edge because it can pick and choose how and when it engages. However, even with full flaps out it can't out-turn a well flown Niki. Moreover, the Ki-84 would be a hard fight if flown by someone like Dedalos.
I would not be unhappy flying the Niki or Ki-84 against the -4, if I could suck him into a low-speed vertical fight.
Actually, I'd be far more wary of cherry picking Chogs than the F4U-4. Four Hispanos are extremely lethal, only needing a couple of hits to knock you down.
My regards,
Widewing
Yep, I forgot about the 1C. I picked the 4 beacuse of its speed and clime. No other reason
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Originally posted by dedalos
Ahhh, you got me all wrong. I did not say that the plane makes you cherry pick. I said don't give the cherry pickers the tools to cherry pick. I am not talking about the guys that will take the F4U4 into a fight. We all know who I am talking about. Do you need names? You know who the cherry pros of AvA are.
Ahh rgr that ded.
Bronk
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It would be fun to use that terrain but with 1942 planesets.
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Have to concur: the Japanese plane set in the game does not support either a Late War AvA arena or SEA event.
The addition of the Mitsubishi J2M Raiden "Jack", Ki-44IIc Shōki "Tojo", and Yokosuka D4Y Suisei "Judy", as well as a gun heavy option for the Ki-84, would at least make things interesting in a LW PTO map against all the LW USAAF and USN planes available.
Can't see developing the under-armed Oscar, any earlier medium bombers than the "Peggy" we have. Ki-100 too close to the existing Ki-61 to justify development time.
Most of the rest of the Japanese MW/LW additions would be under performers, or had extremely limited numbers developed (single digit and teens like the aforementioned Mitsubishi J8M/Me 163 = 7 built, and the Nakajima G8N "Renzan" heavy bomber, also 7 built). Might be a few diamonds in the rough though, I can't think what right now.
And what is the Seafire doing in the Allies plane set, from Essex carriers no less???? I'm sure there were still a few British and Australian units in the area, but not many, and mostly land based in Indo-China and Indonesia. On the flip side, no B-26's or A-20's? I'm sure the B-25 will be added later when available.
The map however is great.
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The seafire was added because the acklies don't have enough to choose from in this setup...
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Waiting for the inevitable "hey lets sub the 109 for xxx.".
Bronk
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Originally posted by dedalos
What he said. NIKIs and Ki84s are available right? No US plane can play with them cept the F4U4 but only because it can disengage and try to get the advantage.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Shuffler
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Yeah, I know, easy for for everyone to come in here and say :rofl . No one ever wants to show me how I am wrong :confused:
Quick check said you a P38L pilot whose #1 killer was the NIKI :rofl :rofl
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Don't forget, this map comes with 262, 163 and 234 skinned with Japanese markings.
Also note: A119 air spawn is purely defensive, there are no bomber spawn points, just points to intercept bomber formations.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Have to concur: the Japanese plane set in the game does not support either a Late War AvA arena or SEA event.
I have to ask, do any of you folks fly the Japanese planes? These pronouncements that the Japanese 1945 plane set is helpless against the 1945 Allied plane set simply run counter to years of experience we've had in AvA.
And what is the Seafire doing in the Allies plane set, from Essex carriers no less???? I'm sure there were still a few British and Australian units in the area, but not many, and mostly land based in Indo-China and Indonesia.
"After initial placement on Russian convoy routes, Seafires saw most service in the Far East Pacific campaigns, serving with No. 887 and 894 Squadrons aboard HMS Indefatigable and joining the British Pacific Fleet late in 1944. Due to their good high altitude performance and lack of ordnance-carrying capabilities (compared to the Hellcats and Corsairs of the Fleet) the Seafires were allocated the vital defensive duties of Combat Air Patrol (CAP) over the fleet. Seafires were thus heavily involved in countering the Kamikaze attacks during the Iwo Jima landings and beyond. The Seafires' best day was 15 August 1945, shooting down eight attacking aircraft for a single loss. During the campaign 887 FAA claimed 12 kills, and 894 FAA claimed 10 kills (with two more claims earlier in 1944 over Norway)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Seafire. Now, granting that it's a Wikipedia cite, is there some evidence that it's wrong? As to the carriers, HTC simply doesn't model the British armored deck carriers, so we use what we have.
On the flip side, no B-26's or A-20's? I'm sure the B-25 will be added later when available.
Educate me. Were the medium bombers bombing Japan in 1945?
The map however is great.
It really is a beautiful piece of work.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Educate me. Were the medium bombers bombing Japan in 1945?
- oldman
5th AF B25s were hitting shipping off the south coast of Japan and hitting targets near Kyushu in the summer of 45. Don't believe A20s ever got there though. B26s were not being operated by the 5th AF at that point.
The Flak was heavy on the south coast and the 345th for example suffered a lot of losses to flak.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Well, you could say lets try it. Maybe I am wrong :D I am whilling to show you why I think I am right. Are you?
Well Krusty?
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And what is the Seafire doing in the Allies plane set, from Essex carriers no less???? I'm sure there were still a few British and Australian units in the area, but not many, and mostly land based in Indo-China and Indonesia.
Five days after the Nagasaki bomb, on August 14th 1945,Emperor Hirohito signed the peace treaty and surrendered unconditionally to the Allies. Following the surrender, Hirohito ordered the armed forces of Japan to stop all hostilities. However, some elements of the Japanese Navy Air Force chose to ignore this order and continue fighting against the allied forces, triggering a historic dogfight with British carrier-based aircraft above Tokyo bay. This would be the final contested carrier air strike of World War Two...
August 15th 1945
On that morning, a British Fleet Air Arm attack group from the HMS Infatigable took off for targets on Honshu island. The group consisted of six Avengers of the 820 Sqn, four Fairey Fireflies of 1772 Sqn and eleven Seafires of 887 and 894 Sqns. The British were bounced by twelve A6M5c Zeroes of the 302nd Kokutai, led by Lt Moriaka. They immediately went for the bombers and close escort Seafires below. The top cover, lead by Sub-Lt Victor Lowden, dove in to protect their friends below.
The 302nd Kokutai lost four Zeroes and pilots in the engagement: Lt Mitsuo Taguchi, Lt Yoshikane Kuramoto and Chief Petty Officer Ikki Takeda. They claimed one kill in return, along with two probables. This was very close to the mark, with the British actually loosing two planes: A Seafire flown by Sub-Lt David Hockley, who managed to bailout but was executed by the Japanese forces after being captured. Following the use of the atomic bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the Allied aircrew knew what would happen should they bail out over the devastated country. Also, an Avenger took heavy damage during the engagement and was forced to ditch in the sea before reaching the safety of the carrier.
Source: Aeroplane-magazine, June 2001 issue
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Originally posted by Guppy35
5th AF B25s were hitting shipping off the south coast of Japan and hitting targets near Kyushu in the summer of 45. Don't believe A20s ever got there though. B26s were not being operated by the 5th AF at that point.
The Flak was heavy on the south coast and the 345th for example suffered a lot of losses to flak.
The capturing of islands like Okinawa and Iwo Jima would have allowed the extended range of medium bombers such as the A-20, B-26, B-25, and A-26, (most which had been modified to carry extra fuel by this time to increase their range) to reach Formosa, the China coast, and Honshu and Shikoku's southern shores respectively. Mostly those missions were anti-shipping, patrol, reconnaissance, and some strafing and bombing of land targets. Pretty much: go out, see what you can see, hit what you can hit, and get back to tell us about it.
I do know in the final months of the war, the 319th Bomb Group, attached to the 7th Air Force, recently transfered from the ETO, and refitted with A-26's, was operating out of Okinawa and hitting Ryukyu Islands, Kyūshū, mainland China, and any shipping in the South China Sea. They also were going after airfields and industrial areas on Kyūshū. On, and between, the days the Enola Gay and Bockscar were making their historic bomb runs, the 319th was hitting Kyūshū like most days.
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how about a few cherry blossoms ;)
sorry about spelling all percoceted out blown hammy here lol
but shouldnt be a balance due to J was getting bottoms kicked
maybe go get that nuke from korean test to use :aok :aok