Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Latrobe on August 10, 2007, 12:40:13 PM
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from what I've read from all these thread about how to get sommeone off your six, all the best pilots don't attempt to avoid the enemy on their six, but try to kill them. This confuses me and I would like to know what they are talking about. How do you attempt to kill someone when they are on your six?
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Latrobe,
1st most of the players who think with this type of mentality are going in with the mindset " I am going to win, I will not lose"..and they are thinking that way all the way until they are either flying thru the debris of what is left of the opponents plane or they are sitting in the tower.....
they never give up thinking this regardless if they are even in a fight where smeone is glued to their "SIX" and repeatedly pinging them, they still think they can win and WILL!
ok, with that out of the way, think of it as fishing......what do you do to entice a fish? you Bait, and what do you do to catch the fish once he takes the bait? you set the hook.....then you have the fight......
so when they see someone on their "SIX" they say UMMMM "dinner time" and go to baiting and setting the hook.......then they have the mindset as I described in my opening response of they will not and can not lose.......
;)
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90% of the time anytime someone gets on your 6 you just use that as an advantage to set them up for a kill. There are many different ways to accomplish it but the one thing you must keep in mind is you go aggressive iso defensive. If you look at Boelkes Dicta, "If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it." While a true statement the distance he is behind you dictates just how you will accomplish it. If the guy is 400 out you may have to sucker him into an overshoot. "IF" you have rudders that's easily accomplished. If he is 600 out you probably can do as Boelke states and turn into him aggressively. Am i making any sense? The easiest way to explain it is in the TA.
I'm out of pocket until the 14th but would be happy to show you then. Hope this helps.
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It's mental. You think "Oh crap I'm gonna die!!!!" and you'll probably make a self-fulfilling prophecy. You think "Okay, now how do I kill this SOB?" and chances are you've got an aggressive edge and have a better shot at coming out the winner.
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from what I've heard (from friend and family) I'm mental alright :D
so basicly its all about being agressive and wanting to win and getting into a mental state were you will win. I see TY very much
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Originally posted by Latrobe
from what I've heard (from friend and family) I'm mental alright :D
so basicly its all about being agressive and wanting to win and getting into a mental state were you will win. I see TY very much
pretty much, yes
another thing is...when they see that guy behind them or diving in on them, the players with the above mentioned "mindset" have more than likely already thought "ahead" in their mind of how the scenario is going to playout and have already predetermined what counter move they might have to preform to the counter that the guy on their "SIX"" will do / perform.......
so in return they actually become the leader and make the Attacker, as Ren mentioned, become defensive and the Attacker has to instead of setting the fight tone, react to the other player...
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Originally posted by Latrobe
from what I've heard (from friend and family) I'm mental alright :D
so basicly its all about being agressive and wanting to win and getting into a mental state were you will win. I see TY very much
Not exactly, but being agressive helps and using your plane in the right way. Energy dictates most of the out come of an attack to your six. Forcing the "overshoot" of a high energy aircraft on your six can be quickly learned and takeing advantage of that overshoot will get you wins.
Two equal engery aircraft engaged in a merrygoround with all things being equal, it all comes down to who makes the biggest mistake.
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so to be aggressive you have to have no fear of dieing (which is no problem in AH2) and never think about loosing, always win. If you're missing half a wing, kill. loose all your wing bail and shoot them with your pistol :) . TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!
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It is a mindset thing for sure.
There is a certain amount of "predictability" that plays in too.
When it comes to a guy in front of me, he can do a wide range of things to try to evade, cause an overshoot, etc. He might be new and inexperienced- or he might be an AH mastermind. I don't know. That guy isn't all that predictable.
The guy on my six is different. I know what he wants to do, what he's flying, where he's going, and how he plans to get there. I know his relative speed (faster than me, or he isn't a threat). I know his basic capabilities based on plane, speed, alt, and number of enemies nearby.
I know what he'll do if I turn left, right, climb, or dive. Knowing that, I just set up my flight path accordingly, and try to time it so my bullets cross his flight path at the same time as his plane. Lots of different ways to do that, so I won't go into all that.
If he's aggressive, he's more predictable. If he's less aggressive, he's less predictable, but also less dangerous (at least immediately). The less aggressive pilot will probably zoom upward, or at least not follow me through my trap. That's ok, because it gives me time to ponder plan B, which may simply be to merge on more "even" terms.
Or I may spray from him at 2K-2.5K (I leave tracers on), and wiggle my wings a little. That's the ultimate bait. Look like a total newbie on the verge of losing control. Funny how aggressive that can make some people. :^)
MtnMan
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It's aggressive execution of a course of action intended to sieze the initiative. A good stick has a plan and believes in that plan right till it works, he dies or he decises it wont work. At which point he scraps plan A and goes to plan B and focuses on it with the same intensity...until it doesnt work...this continues till he wins or dies... at which point he either identifies where he messed up and failed to execute or the plan failed. Once you decide if you failed the plan or the plan failed you then you revisit one or both.
This has nothing to do with reverses but might help. I'm going to end up flying jugs in the upcoming scenario to fly with my squaddies. I suck in jugs so I'm now a D-25 driver. This is my 1st true "dog fight"...it's pretty obvious that I failed the plan and the plan failed me. I spun the plane and that led to my getting killed, but just before that the plane kind of hung as I tried to force it to the right coming over the top. At that point I stopped flying on feel and started thinking about flying....
I'm still in the what does the plane do part of the curve. I need to improve my fundemental flying (anytime you lose the plane you lost the fight IF the other guy is a stick like dadrabit. At the same time I felt like I could have won the fight...which is great for me at this time... So I'm 70% working on me and 30% working on a better more "efficient" line thru that type of fight. A different type of path might have allowed me to use my roll/rudder to "knuckle over" on him...instead I flew an arc...
I know the key to the jug there is the "semi spin" flop over as he comes up...I just dont know if the plane couldnt have done it...but I know that I didnt execute. So for now I'll look to repeat that knowing that even 400-500 alt speration gives me the "knuckle". Once I execute the knuckle and fail then i'll look to improving the "setup"...if that doesnt work i'll go to a different thought. Once I execute the knuckle and fail I'll be able to begin to put a "plan B" together (guessing a rolling scissors of some flavor)...
Pilot error (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film19.ahf)
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Of course, there is a downside.
Being over-confident will get you kilt!!
MtnMan
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Originally posted by Latrobe
so to be aggressive you have to have no fear of dieing (which is no problem in AH2) and never think about loosing, always win. If you're missing half a wing, kill. loose all your wing bail and shoot them with your pistol :) . TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!
you know, Latrobe, me and Schatzi was winging together and flying with this type of mindset
( and seriously, I think like this, even posted it years ago, never let the thought of "oh crap' I am about to lose this fight" sink into your thought process, once it finds it's way there then you are fighting two battles of thought s at the same time of trying to fight your actual opponent)
we came up against I believe it was Boozer & grmrpr or might have been another 4thFG player....anyhow in our 2 vs 2, I lost 1/2 of my P51 right wing ( or might of been an F4U ) and we were still mixing it up.I never gave up fighting.....Schatzi gets tagged because I was unable to maneuver effciently to the left to cover/clear her.but I managed after losing that 1/2 wing to get one of the P51's we were fighting and then had a good drawn out fight with Boozer, btw who also taught me believe it or not BFM/ACM like 12 or so years ago......, I was doing ok in our fight until Boozer realized I was missing a major component then he used it against me, and I ended up having to fight him going left to where I was holding my own ok, not great but ok, while fighting going right using low yoyo's and rolls etc...
so there is an example of the mentality to never give up.and there are a good few post on these boards of people who fought off 2 or 3 missing rudders/ 1/2 wings, 1/2 elevator/ 1 flap stuck down and the other shot off etc....
just the other night in the AvsA I got in a fight with either dedalos or Batfink and they shot my motor out, I never gave up fighting until there was no more altitude or speed left.I got a ditch out of it.
alot of great responses in this thread....hope you found your answer, Sir
& Good Luck ~S~
edit: and btw, yes I do often hit the silk and try to shoot the other planes with my 45, one of these days I will get a canopy shot with my 45 slug :D
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I remeber winning a 4 on 1 (me being the one) p51 and p47 were BnZ and niki and f4u were turn fightin with my spit 16. I didn't know about the different tactics of dogfighting at the time, but I just kept the niki and f4u out of line of fire until jug and pony zoomed past me and climbed back out. I then just took out which ever one I thought was most deadly first. I killed the niki and F4U by taking them on 1 at a time and I made the jug auger. Pony overshot and I got a lucky shot on him and got his tail. Landed all 4 kills too. It was my favorite sortie ever.
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The mindset is incredibly important I think also there are a few other things to consider. NUmber one for me, practically speaking is if you do get bounced by someone who has superior E or perhaps they have a faster AC. You have to realize at the outset that one of you is going to go down, if your opponent has superior E and you're not able to convert it you are not going to escape so you have to destroy your opposition. It's also like the others have said, it's a setting the other guy up for a sucker move. If they coming in /knowing/ they have the edge it can lead to over-confidence and you can use that against them.
The other thing I've noticed over the years is that if you're in a dogfight lasting say more than two minutes you'll have had ample time to observe the other pilot. Many many people in this game will repeat the same move. Bad, predictable habits that many people never realize they have. Watch your opponent closely. Does he always break right when pressed? Does he always do a split-s when presented with the chance? Now yes, they could be setting you up with it, but most don't realize they're even doing it.
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Originally posted by Latrobe
so to be aggressive you have to have no fear of dieing (which is no problem in AH2) and never think about loosing, always win. If you're missing half a wing, kill. loose all your wing bail and shoot them with your pistol :) . TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!
You will never be in the top 10 by being agrgresive. As for what to do with a guy on your six, start with what TC and Ren said. Don't think how too get away but how to kill him. But it is not all mental. You have to know what to do also. Forcing the overshoot on a faster guy is easy. He is faster therefore he will overshoot even if you dont do mach.
In anycase, it is almost impossible to describe what to do because every situationis different. You just have to see it or try it a few times. If you see me in the MA ask to join my plane. I always give up my six in the MA. It seems to be the guaranteed way to get the bad guy to engage
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Originally posted by Latrobe
TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!
If that's your dream by all means go for it, but if you're serious about going the aggressive route and learning, winning a KoTH might be a more fulfilling goal.
And wad'yaknow... Yer first chance's tomorrow :cool:
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Originally posted by Krusty
It's mental. You think "Oh crap I'm gonna die!!!!" and you'll probably make a self-fulfilling prophecy. You think "Okay, now how do I kill this SOB?" and chances are you've got an aggressive edge and have a better shot at coming out the winner.
ok./........what you say above is exactly what i used to think when i saw someone diving on me. and i ALWAYS did. then i was reading some of these posts....that combined with flying in furballs in which someone will almost always try to come from alt.......but anyway......next step was ""o crap where's the nearest help??!""" now, it's more like.......""what do i do to evade AND give myself a chance?" i now survive these attacks almost 40% of the time. i've had a few where i reeled the guy into less than 600 cause he thought i didn't see him, and rather than keep his speed, he did all he could to not go past me and get a shot....one in particular, i got a lucky snapshot, a few rounds hit him, causing him to do heavy evasives, bleeding the rest of his energy...from that point, it was simply a game of follow the leader till he gave me a nice shot on him.
listen to these guys.....re-read the ones ya don't understand, as that helps too.....it's helped me more than i can put into words!!!!
good luck
<>
john
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It's easy for all of (us) vets and the newer elite guys to say "I am gonna win, I am gonna win". It's not so easy for a relative noob.
Just go out and fight. Don't worry about dying. Knowledge will come through experience, confidence will come through knowledge and your rank will improve with confidence as you fill your bag of tricks.
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Originally posted by dedalos
You have to know what to do also.
Above is why I said meet a Trainer in the TA and when I'll be available. You will also generally find a trainer in the TA just about any day of the week.
Right now you might not believe much of what folks are saying here but one day you will see some dude behind you and say, "it's cool, cause I'm just gonna sucker him and and send him back to the tower".
Hope this helps.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
It's easy for all of (us) vets and the newer elite guys to say "I am gonna win, I am gonna win". It's not so easy for a relative noob.
Just go out and fight. Don't worry about dying. Knowledge will come through experience, confidence will come through knowledge and your rank will improve with confidence as you fill your bag of tricks.
yes it is easy for people to just say it, anyone can say it...... I was not just saying it, I was explaining how one should go about it and become disciplined in this way
how I meant it is in a way as you mentally prepare yourself, Situationally put your mind in a thought process.......this can be done by anyone from a day 1 beginner to a 15 yr long time player.........if one discipline's themselves with this thought process it can and will make them THINK with a never give up / never quit atitude.....
and Ren / dedalos is spot on, none of the mental aspect helps if one does not know how to fly their plane type or if they do not understand what their plane type is capable of and at what times one should or should not do certian things.......but that was covered in one of the other 6 to 10 threads dealing with the same thread topic as this thread......
a step further, you flying along, you see the bad guy diving down on you from your high SIX, you make a mental picture of this, and look back forward, scan around you ( all the way ) make another mental picture and append it to the one u had just taken, then look back up again, append the picture some more, build on to it.........start thinking on what & when to do the what.....
again this comes from 1st knowing all the "whats" you can do with your plane, this is the 1st step after learning stick set up/ views/comms/radar/icons/ take off/landing, stall/spin recovery...... now comes the whats - the BFM's
that is where dedalos & Ren spoke of and Ren mentioned TA.......
the opening question was :
from what I've read from all these thread about how to get sommeone off your six, all the best pilots don't attempt to avoid the enemy on their six, but try to kill them. This confuses me and I would like to know what they are talking about. How do you attempt to kill someone when they are on your six?
and his question/s was , well, I thought they were clearly answered...then the good part of the forums kicked in and we had added input to expand on in regards to his opening questions......
I mean no disrespect Bald, but I can not count on my 10 fingers , of how many times I heard a player who had been playing this game for 6 months, 1 year, 2 years come to the TA or the Trainers and say they wished they had done the TA thing from the start. They actually went about it your way of thinking ( seriously no pun intended with that ) and learned a lot of bad habits in doing so.......
food for though.....
~S~
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In the end its pretty simple, plan the fight and fight the plan. This extends to any and all aspects of air combat. The clearer you vision and understanding of the correct choices under a vaiety of conditions the better you'll do.
So you can try and invent your own plan...or take the time to learn the time honored fundementals that have been refined for decades. Seems like a simple choice to me....
Going one step farther, while I agree 100% with TC on learning your particular plane a tremendous amount of basic flight manuevers (BFM) work equally well across all planes thru a majority of the flight envelope. These BFM are the building blocks of Air Combat Manuevering (ACM). So a very large segment of situational ACM work equally well across all plane types to at least some degree. So once you can fly the BFM and string them into a sequence to create ACM you need to then learn the basic recognition of http://WWW. What you do, When you do it and most importantly WHY you do it. The reverses you see in the A-20 clips are pretty identical to the reverse you see in the old hog clips...or even older 109E clips or ancient Ki-61 clips. They work very well against a majority of the plane set.
Now some planes are superior and some opponents are superior planes and/or pilots yet the A-20 is every bit as capable of fighting thru 70% or so of the flight envelope as any other. A guy 1.5k behind you is no more of a threat then the guy 1.5 in front of you....IF you have a fundemental plan of action. In the end its your relative ability compared to the other guy that will carry the day....or wont.
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the easiest move for a beginner to shake enemy of your 6 would be scissors.
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the problem with that statement is as follows...
1) the scissors is bogi dependent. One of the most common sights in the MA is some poor guy scissoring 400 yds in front of you back and forth vs a plane that slowed and minimized closure. There is no universal correct answer. The aggressor dictates the fight. The defender has to match his evasives to the attack profile...ideally in a way that denies a shot maximizes E retention and creates an opportunity to convert to an offensive posture.
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Everyone wants to win, so thats taken as read. My take on it is the 'getting the bogey off your six' is not all you are thinking about.
Its not about doing one move and then re-evaluating and then deciding what the next move will be. Its drawing on countless hours of experience and knowledge to employ an all-encompassing strategy which will kill your opponent. It may manifest itself as a pre-planned sequence of moves, or a pre-planned tree of moves with several possible permutations of moves and counter-move responses all instinctively planned out without really thinking about it. Zen, the force, whatever you want to call it. Its all deeply learnt and established thinking patterns which have been gained over many years which take no or very little active cognition to produce.
In a way its not the "he's on your six" bit you're thinking about, its the 3 or 4 moves ahead of time and all the possible permutations which is going through your head. Getting them off your six is taken as read, and your thinking much further ahead than that. This is the mind-set people talk of (in my book anyway). If you fail to get them off your six, you die like anyone else, but its the what happens after that, which is critical. Those that plan for it will excel in the air. Those who don't die more often than not.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I mean no disrespect Bald, but I can not count on my 10 fingers , of how many times I heard a player who had been playing this game for 6 months, 1 year, 2 years come to the TA or the Trainers and say they wished they had done the TA thing from the start. They actually went about it your way of thinking ( seriously no pun intended with that ) and learned a lot of bad habits in doing so.......
food for though.....
~S~
No disrespect TC. I wasn't suggesting that reading as much as possible and visiting the TA wouldn't help with the learning curve but in the end the only way you'll gain the confidence to put what you've learned into practice and live that attitude is through experience.
Not just experience with ACM, SA and your own planes capabilities but the capabilities of every other plane in the arena. I'm sure you and the rest of the trainers are good at what you do but that type of experience is only going to be gained by flying and dying in every type of plane or flying and dying against every type of plane.
And then just when you think you have it down you meet someone who can do things with a certain plane you've never seen anyone else do before. And so the learning curve continues.
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Originally posted by Spatula
Everyone wants to win, so thats taken as read. My take on it is the 'getting the bogey off your six' is not all you are thinking about.
Its not about doing one move and then re-evaluating and then deciding what the next move will be. Its drawing on countless hours of experience and knowledge to employ an all-encompassing strategy which will kill your opponent. It may manifest itself as a pre-planned sequence of moves, or a pre-planned tree of moves with several possible permutations of moves and counter-move responses all instinctively planned out without really thinking about it. Zen, the force, whatever you want to call it. Its all deeply learnt and established thinking patterns which have been gained over many years which take no or very little active cognition to produce.
In a way its not the "he's on your six" bit you're thinking about, its the 3 or 4 moves ahead of time and all the possible permutations which is going through your head. Getting them off your six is taken as read, and your thinking much further ahead than that. This is the mind-set people talk of (in my book anyway). If you fail to get them off your six, you die like anyone else, but its the what happens after that, which is critical. Those that plan for it will excel in the air. Those who don't die more often than not.
:aok :aok :aok
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Alot of goods things have been written by a lot of good folks. I'd suggest you also remember this:
Stick time is great!
Quality stick time is 100% better.
You gotta know what your planes limits are. Slow, fast, up, down, guns...you name it.
You need to understand the differences in plane performance.
Yo gotta be able to shoot and score a kill when you saddle up on the guy.
You must learn tactics.
For every single move in the air there is a counter move.
For every counter move, guess what? There's a counter move.
A plan is only as good as the first move. The first move can be upset in an instant. When that happens you can toss everything out the window and go to Plan B. What's plan B? A reset of the fight.
Think of a dogfight as a play in three parts;
1) The first is where you begin with your opening move.
2) The second is where you either begin to establish dominence in the fight or bug for a reset.
3) The third part is the end game where you saddle and shoot down the bogie.
Regarding number 2 above...if you've correctly set up your views you can instantly see which way the fight is going and either take it to the end game or bug. You will know, without a doubt, if the fight is going south on you and can take action to roll, unload and bug for a reset. All the visual clues are always there, all you have to do is see them.
Im gonna post Boelke's Dicta for you in a thread here. There are probably 20 different sites that list it so you can google and find a copy anywhere. But, I'll try and explain it in that thread.
Hope this helps.
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Originally posted by Latrobe
so to be aggressive you have to have no fear of dieing (which is no problem in AH2) and never think about loosing, always win. If you're missing half a wing, kill. loose all your wing bail and shoot them with your pistol :) . TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!
YEAH you just keep thinking like that and I will kill you 9 out of 10 times