Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pepe on July 09, 2001, 02:13:00 AM
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Put some delay to tower respawning (like 1 minute, or so) and shorten refuelling times.
Cheers,
Pepe
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baaaaaaaaaaaaaad idea :) There is enough problems with people running as it is.
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Yuck.
-- Todd/DMF
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Nope.
You can't enforce your idea of fun onto another person who does not view that as fun.
Especially when you consider newbies.
This is a horrible idea for them, and would discourage them from playing.
Look at it this way. They are new, have no idea what's going on. They take off, live for a minute then crash or get shot down. They then spend another minute in the tower.
They spent exactly half their time online in the tower because of this.
Very very very bad idea.
-SW
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I was thinking this minute penalty appliable only with regards to the airfield you took off from.
SW, I do not want to impose anything to anyone, just giving away ideas (good or bad).
Anyway, I'm gathering some serious consensus about this... ;)
Cheers,
Pepe
[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: Pepe ]
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Great... let's encourage flying like timid little girls even more. Yeah and while were at it let's just add more time doing nothing.
Worst of all worlds. Guess we need an HA (hope for action) arena for all the timid, anal, anti fun types to go to and hide from each other for hours.
lazs
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Pepe,
Sorry to throw a wet blanket over your idea but this seems to come up every 12-18 months, (Ive seen it twice in Warbirds and this is the second time here). The discussion usually degenerates into a flame war and it isn't pretty. So before this all ends in tears and recriminations please understand that I'm not taking a shot at you but I've seen this idea argued over too many times before and it will never work.
Why? Put simply the instant you restrict or penalise a player they leave the game. If enough leave you lose money. The crew at HTC aren't running around lighting cigars with $100 bills and any idea that can lose revenue won't be implemented.
That's my two cents. Spotcha in the Air,
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Godd idea and add a mute period to let people cool a bit before bursting/overeacting in channel 1 :)
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Straffo!!!
Dang you!, you are ruining a perfect consensus against this Idea.... I won't forgive that :D
Pepe
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the majority of ah players have the patience, and intelligence, of infants.
waiting 1 minute would be *far* too long for them :)
i like the idea of instant respawn, but not at the same base as you just used.
irl pilots didnt take off to try to "bust a vulch" knowing they were going to die 10 times in the process
i really dont like vulching. why? i dont like the guys (i see the same guys do it over and over) who inflate their score by doing it.
allowing instant respawn, but only at another base, or a couple minutes delay at the same base would be nice i think.
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Addendum to this idea what about having this time limitation just for the field of origin ?
exemple :
You spawn at A1 and got killed =>
1 minute penalty for re spawn at A1
0 minutes for any other field.
1st effect : vulcher would be frustrated
2nd effect : car bomber would be annoyed
3rd effect : newbie would be educated
now what I've forgot ? where did I go wrong :D ?
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We could just get HTC to implement the mechanism that other game uses.
You know..after you die it takes your computer 3-5 minutes of Hard Drive Thrashing to reload to the tower. (Of course, users with 512K+ of RAM would suffer a slightly lesser penalty.)
:D
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
i really dont like vulching. why? i dont like the guys (i see the same guys do it over and over) who inflate their score by doing it.
Whats this?!?!? An ASSassin speaking out against their squad's modus operandi (is that how you spell it?)? What is the world coming to?
HBlair...you better bust this guy back down to latrine scrubber for that comment. :)
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You've got an idea/solution for something that isn't a problem here.
Maybe to you it is, but to the general public it isn't.
What's the problem? Why would we need a time limit on respawning?
-SW
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Cool! Hanna B Codeer for a moment. Then all hell breaks loose, with just a moose to fall back on. Plus the springs water isn't clear anymore so forget about washing your dishes in it. Sometimes that is what it takes when ya wanna box a kangaroo in Kokomo during the winter months. Tourist will have nothing left to pay for so their money will be yours.
And you thought it would be difficult! HaHa!
:)
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SW,
If you are allways that bitter, you will develop an ulcer in no time. Relax, man :)
Ok, I have an idea (never a solution, never claimed i had that) for something that (in your view) is not a problem here. Point taken. :)
Second, the numbers are overwhelming against it ;), but there are hardly enough to allow you to use "the general public". This is an abrasive and useless phrase, I think.
Third. No problems here. I enjoy AH as it is. I'm only throwing ideas on a constructive way. Some may work, some not. Some may be clever, some BS. I think we are useful in this BBS by throwing ideas around. Htc will sort them out.
I don't think the problem is respawning, but encouraging returning alive. I think there is nothing wrong with this attitude, altho I'm not the best qualified to talk in this regard. I will never give up a field, whatever the odds I face, so It's easy to see that I have no problems with insta-respawn. I was thinking on cutting refuelling time, and having a minute (or whatever) penalty on insta-respawn (not penalty when taking off from other field) as a way to encourage people to fly long streaks and use fuel spots, so virtual life means something. That's all.
Cheers,
Pepe.
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I'm not bitter. I don't like the idea of someone thinking something is better for me, when I know it isn't. If someone WANTS to fly to live, they will. If someone doesn't want to fly to live, they won't. Penalizing them will just aggrivate them and send them to another game.
"I don't think the problem is respawning, but encouraging returning alive."
Why should someone be encouraged to return to base alive? Why penalize someone by making them sit in the tower for a minute or go to another field to take off that's probably 20 minutes away from the action? Penalizing someone with time makes absolutely no sense to me. Points or score, fine but time... no way.
-SW
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Even if a player has to wait in the tower for 1 min before respawning, it is still quicker than taking the 5 min to fly back to a friendly field. I think that this mode of thinking is unavoidable.
"I don't think the problem is respawning, but encouraging returning alive."
I agree. I don't know what else can be done to encourage it. We already get a perk bonus for landing a kill, and we loose perks if we don't land a perkie.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992:
I agree. I don't know what else can be done to encourage it. We already get a perk bonus for landing a kill, and we loose perks if we don't land a perkie.
There's a very simple solution to this. Do nothing. I fail to understand why some players feel the need to encourage others to return to base, even to the point of throwing them in the "penalty box" in the tower for a period of time if they don't. If the other players want to return to base, they will. If they don't... they won't.
As someone who preferred to auger rather than waste the time returning to base, it didn't bother me when others spent their time doing it. That was their choice. Why should someone who returns to base care what I do for fun?
-- Todd/DMF
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I agree 100% with DMF.
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[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: Jase ]
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I, too, prefer to auger instead of flying back to base most times. I just don't see the need to fly a long way back just to land.
Although penalizing me for this would just be an annoying waste of time, I sure wouldn't mind having an incentive to rtb.
Nothing to do with points or perks; the people that care about points already have an incentive to rtb.
I don't really know what it could be, other than to say I really like the rearm pads. I don't know why, but for some reason I find myself rearming more and more--even if it's just to rearm, take off, and auger.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is make rtbing fun or meaningful, and more people will do it.
anRky
[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: AN ]
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why do we feel the need to impose on others? because it would improve our own fun.
i dont enjoy killing someone, then having them back on top of the dog pile in 30 seconds after they up from their field again
upping from the field a but firther away and grabbing a bit is smarter anyways since you'll have more alt and will be less likely to get vulched
for me, any sort of "immersion" which is something that many (including myself) look for in a flight sim
i find this type of gameplay in a scenario, but there arent scenarios where "realistic" situations can be found nightly, you can only play on the weekends when you may be unavailable. hence the problem.
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why do we feel the need to impose on others? because it would improve our own fun.
LOL! I mean really... LOL!
How about you write down a list. You can put all the things on it that everyone else should do to make the game more fun for you. We'll try to oblige you, because your fun is more important than ours.
i dont enjoy killing someone, then having them back on top of the dog pile in 30 seconds after they up from their field again
I'd suggest not killing them right over their field then. I'm wondering where else they can get to inside of 30 seconds. This is all about vulching? I'm also wondering what plane has a climb rate that can get them on the top of the dog pile 30 seconds after being killed. Couldn't be that you are over-exagerating to try to make a point that normal numbers wouldn't support?
for me, any sort of "immersion" which is something that many (including myself) look for in a flight sim
I don't really see what this has to do with immersion. Are you talking about immersion while you are vulching a field... or immersion that gives you 60 extra seconds to climb after killing someone before they can start to head back your way? Really... what exactly does replaning have to do with immersion in any way shape or form... of course other than a 1 death then no more flying scenario?
AKDejaVu
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well, the ONLY way to achieve this is to introduce self-preservation instinct into AH.
How? Bloody simple, each time you get shot down a random .exe file in your C: drive will be deleted.
:D
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Zigrat.... (http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/otn/laughing/1grlaugh2.gif) (http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/otn/laughing/1orglaugh.gif) (http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/otn/laughing/astrosmiley.gif) (http://www.duhspot.com/users/smiley/s/otn/laughing/lol2.gif) (http://www.3dpcgames.com/cwm/s/otn/laughing/laugh2.gif) (http://www.3dpcgames.com/cwm/s/otn/laughing/yelrotflmao.gif)
Yeah DJ pretty much covered all the bases.
-SW
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.. the majority of ah players have the patience, and intelligence, of infants.
ROFL Zig!
Gotta hand it to him; the man knows the audience. :)
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ROFLMAO TAC!!!!!!!!!
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want evidence of teh general quakeish nature of ah players? look at the arena counts when a special event is taking place.
pretty sad.
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I thought this was a "SIMULATION"[/i] game.
Yeah, it's a game, so we may not be able to simulate "EVERYTHING" "CORRECTLY", but we sure do know HTC tries to do so as much as they can, and us fans demand as much realism as possible in regards to current technical conditions.
You may not be able to "DEMAND" somebody else to fly around realistically, (did Pepe 'demand' anything to anyone?) but I'm pretty much sure we all can "SUGGEST" something that might encourage the tendencies of on-line pilots to match more closely to the tendencies of real wartime pilots, no? After all, this is a "SIMULATION". Is this idea harming anyone(like attacking their favorite plane of use)?
I don't think so. If any kind of suggestion and ideas are always treated as useless "solutions to problems which do not exist", why bother expecting HTC to upgrade planes and stuff in the first place?
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Not worth it. This is pointless.
-SW
[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Originally posted by Kweassa:
I thought this was a "SIMULATION" game.
You're right, but the emphasis should be on simulation "GAME"[/b] and not "SIMULATION"[/b] game.
Yeah, it's a game, so we may not be able to simulate "EVERYTHING" "CORRECTLY", but we sure do know HTC tries to do so as much as they can, and us fans demand as much realism as possible in regards to current technical conditions.
I hardly think that forced downtime when you don't return to base is realistic. As a simulation of WW2 combat aircraft, I expect the fidelity of AH's flight models, weapons ballistics, handling, etc. to be as technically realistic as possible. These are things that HTC can attempt to simulate acccurately. But how can they possibly model death itself accurately? How is one minute in the tower vs. no time in the tower somehow a more realistic depiction of lifelessness? Please.
You may not be able to "DEMAND" somebody else to fly around realistically, (did Pepe 'demand' anything to anyone?) but I'm pretty much sure we all can "SUGGEST" something that might encourage the tendencies of on-line pilots to match more closely to the tendencies of real wartime pilots, no? After all, this is a "SIMULATION". Is this idea harming anyone(like attacking their favorite plane of use)?
You're nitpicking semantics here. Regardless of whether Pepe suggested, demanded, cajoled, pleaded, whined, begged, decreed, announced, or hollared this suggestion, the fact that it would be a poor gameplay addition remains.
Also, I think you're really misunderstanding the nature of Aces High. It is not a flight simulation. Microsoft Flight Sim is a flight simulation. Aces High is a multiplayer online game featuring WW2-era combat airplanes with high fidelity flight models. There's a difference. How can you argue for "realistic" gameplay in the main arena as players fly 109s against 190s, Spits against Typhoons, and P-47s against P-51s?
I don't think so. If any kind of suggestion and ideas are always treated as useless "solutions to problems which do not exist", why bother expecting HTC to upgrade planes and stuff in the first place?
Now this just doesn't make any sense. We expect HTC to upgrade and introduce planes because doing so is essential to a multiplayer game featuring WW2-era combat aircraft. What we don't expect is change for its own sake (that is, change which offers nothing new), or change which actually diminishes the quality of gameplay. Pepe's suggestion falls into the latter category. It's neither needed nor wanted by a large number of players, its inclusion will undoubtedly aggravate many of them, and it in no way adds a sense of realism or fairness.
It's a solution to something that wasn't a problem in the first place.
-- Todd/DMF
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I am just throwing in my 2 cents. I am tired of seeing suicide fighters and bombers knowing they will never get back just for a lowsy kill of a cheap plane that doesnt hurt anyone.... I think that they should perk every plane except early war planes like the Spit V, A6M5, LA5, C202, and P38 and P47D11.
This way U will take more care flying a plane. I am not big on the perk everything Ideah but I HATE to see STUPID dogfighters who just go for the all mighty furball there is more to the game then that, I hardly ever see a bomber any more let alone Large bomber raids to destroy HQs and Citys U might as well take all the other stuff out and just make a 3 feild arena and just call it FURBALL. where everyone can just go and fight it out over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....... U get the ideah. I am just throwing in my spare change.
Hodo
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OK, I think I feel the need of taming the fire. So, here I am, armed with a big bucket of gasoline. ;)
I think (and it's my personal opinion) that a majority of us are flying here for the "simulation" side of this game. I can cite Secret Weapons of the LW as a darn funny game, but I do not enjoy it the same as AH. Why? Two main points:
a) I like the "being there" sensation. The closer, the better (of course no physical effects :))
b) I like no AI around, as much as possible.
My suggestion falls entirely into the a) point. I do not want to impose anyone anything, I even have no means to do it (this is Htc.'s property), but as Zigrat says, some behaviours (mine included, guilty as charged) just kill the sensation (often at the same time assuring mutual death by virtual suicide). I like AH as it tries to simulate actual conditions for combat. And as long as an historic fact, Kamikazes do not annoy me per se, it's just when it's too numerous.
I think suicide tactics weight far too much currently, and here is where b) point comes along: when I say no A.I. is because I like the impredictability of a rational, intelligent human being. It adds variety, challenge. Suicides falls quite a bit away from this field. For me, this is just not right. It is not "simulation" it's plain gamey. No fun for me. Again, not trying to impose or to talk in the name of others, just stating that for me, that is not right. So I think I am when I suggest something to counter.
No pun intended to anyone, It would be wonderful if everybody is happy everywhere. The problem is that all of us have different tastes, so some kind of common ground has to be found. THIS is precisely Htc.'s job. I am not upset when lazs (for instance) ask for a permanent furball paradise. I am not upset, also, when somebody criticize my points, dialog is always enlightening. It's good for me (as a player) to have all kind of people throwing away ideas. As I said, Htc. will sort out. At the time being, the are making a hell of a job with this (I am a paying member from the beginning), so they get my vote as "sort agents". As long as they can handle the feedback, the more, the better. Just keep the discussion in these terms.
Cheers,
Pepe.
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It is a good idea to encourage pilots to stay alive and return to base. There is a way to make incentive for this without taking anything away or limiting spawn etc.
Give pilots who return to base a significant perk bonus. When we get more perk planes that should become a good reason not to kamikatze very often.
Respawning from neighbouring fields is something a wise pilot do when origin base is vulched. You dont need to force this on people, but newbies can need some education on why they should do that.
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Those that feel it is important to return to base will. Those that don't... may or may not. Why this is a problem for anyone... I have no idea. This is coming from someone that would rather return to base than not.
For those of you wanting immersion.. focus on what can be truly immersive. Stay away from enemy bases. There is ZERO things that are even remotely realistic anywhere near an enemy base. ZERO. Defend or patrol. Its definately what you are looking for.
Of course, this means you are going to have to fly higher and longer. It means you run the risk of not running into an enemy fighter every sortie. It means the game may become a little less fun. But it also means more accuracy and realism. That is what you wanted... right?
I mean, everybody posting pro of this "encouraging" <how is this different from "forcing"?> people to return to base is willing to sacrifice action in return.. right? None of the people posting pro of this will ever complain that someone is flying a Runstang.. right? Nobody that gets there way on this will quit one month later because the arena just isn't as much fun anymore... right?
Its time people started thinking about the real potential consequences of making the game "more fun for them"... even if its at the risk of making it less fun for others. When you impose restrictions.... you do that very thing. You impose restrictions to get people to behave differently than they want. You impose restrictions to force people to do things they don't really care to do. Do you feel that is going to make people want to stay around? I mean.. really?
Of course, those aren't the types we wanted around here anyways... right? Lets focus once again on what types we want to drive away... even though we've done nothing new to attract others. We've only imposed restrictions.
AKDejaVu
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Pepe, agree with you but with some consideration. There are two kinds of respawners:
1 - The typical zeke/Spit/nikki/La7 taking off over'n over and being shot down over'n over.
2 - The typical 109G10 taking off and climbing fast to intercep a buff and, probably, being shot down over'n over also by the buff.
IMO, the first case should be erradicated, but not the second one.
The following is a prototype of a rule:
If you are shot down at less than a mile of a friendly base perimeter and at less than 3000 feet, then you have a time penalty before taking off from that base (not necesary your base of origin).
A second and more restricted rule:
If you are shot down into your origin base perimeter and at less than 1000 feet, then you have a time penalty before taking off from that base.
IMO, respawning over'n over is one of the cancers of AH, a single suicidal zeke can frustrate the efforts of 5 or 6 players trying to take that base and this is not funny, perhaps only for the zeke pilot ...
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Mandoble.. they already put a fix in for respawning at an airfield while trying to capture it.
Take out the fighter hangars.
So.. you decided not to take out the hangars and things got inconvenient. Wa!
AKDejaVu
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Idea to encourage returning home alive
What about having a nice blonde waiting for you at home? :D
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You were waiting for that, uh? :D
Pepe
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the ak poster twins have it... There is plenty of places for those who's "immersion" is damaged by respawn to fly. It's not that they cann't find a fight with little or no respawn, or far enough away from the crowd so that respawn is a moot point....
No, it is that everyone else is having fun and ignoring them! They KNOW that they have a gawd given talent for flight SIMS that far exceeds the standard "quaker" on AH and are rightfully pissed that no one notices! If only people would playu their way! Then their talents would shine through! I got news... you ain't that good but... with enough boredom added to the game you might be able to pounce on people that are assleep and with delayed respawn you will be much more sure to have that all important huge numbers advantage when hitting a field.... the old "patience is the only worthwhile skill" crapola all over again.
Sheesh... On the one hand they are asking for more scenario like MA because people would like it once they were forced into it and on the other they are complaining that nobody wants to fly the restrictive special events that they feel are more realistic.
lazs
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Mandoble.. they already put a fix in for respawning at an airfield while trying to capture it.
Take out the fighter hangars.
So.. you decided not to take out the hangars and things got inconvenient. Wa!
AKDejaVu
TwweeEEEEEEeeeeT! <blows whistle>
"Using common sense and logic in a BBS discussion, against DejaVu, 15 yard penalty, repeat third down!"
Truth in what Laz says as well.
Try this: every morning for a week, look in your shaving mirror and repeat three times "I guess not everyone wants to play AH in the exact same way I do."
If at the end of a week that sentence still makes you unhappy... well, it's a big world out there, isn't it.
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Originally posted by Toad:
Try this: every morning for a week, look in your shaving mirror and repeat three times "I guess not everyone wants to play AH in the exact same way I do."
If people are THAT obsessed with the game, they need to check themselves and come back to reality.
AH is fun for me, when I no longer find it fun I will find something inside the game that makes it fun for me.
If I want to live, I do my best.. sometimes it doesn't always work out for me, but usually it does (just check out my stats for this tour so far, and I've been mostly furballing too!).
Anyways, I believe that enforcing your policy of what you believe to be fun onto the entire populace of an equal customer base all paying the same entry rate for the same amount of fun you are demanding, wouldn't it make sense that it be a give and take relationship amongst the customers?
You fly the way you want, I'll fly the way I want. If you aren't having fun because I am having fun, then you sincerely need to seek out your reason for playing a game intended to be fun for all.
-SW
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Its sounds good to me, but should only apply to Veterans of the game. Say anyone who's been playing for six months. It usually takes anewbie a little less than that time to get good. :)
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Djvu, hangars rebuild up "suddenly", killing them or advertising they are down doesnt guarantee the conquest bacause once they re-up the spawners will be there forever.
As a side note, Me, Pepe and others are just giving some ideas, not imposing them, while Lazs and AK group seem to answer for the entire comunity.
Lazs, as I told you before, what you are looking for is a permanent head-to-head furball AH, not for any kind of arena, nor historical, neither the present one. Obviously, you are not interested into missions, strategy, jabo, bombers, base conquest, etc. And this "quake-furbaling" concept covers only a minor part of the entire sim.
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What I see here from Mandoble seems like a solution for his own incompetence in failing to keep a steady CAP over the field, bringing in heavy fighters and timing the attack just right.
If you don't plan it out, it's doomed for failure. Don't expect the game to be changed for your lack of planning.
-SW
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SW, you definitely need a new set of glasses. It's obvious you can see nothing :)
Cheers,
Pepe
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Really Pepe? Which part of this statement did I misinterpret?
"hangars rebuild up "suddenly", killing them or advertising they are down doesnt guarantee the conquest bacause once they re-up the spawners will be there forever."
Hangars take 15 (or more) minutes to rebuild. This is hardly "sudden". If you are trying to capture a field, planning it will dictate success. Simply flying there in mob format with no idea what everyone else is doing there expecting that the field will be captured if it's level is about as rediculous as expecting someone to fly a goon there if you yourself refuse to land/crash/bail and grab one yourself.
See where I'm going with this? You want the game changed because of a) you somehow think that a delay in respawning simulates something, b) you screwed the pooch on a field capture, planes are now taking off and you want them to be unable to take off so you can easily capture the field, or c) you just want people to play YOUR way.
Which part did I need glasses on?
Last night the AKs attacked a field, we had our first goon shot down by a high speed N1K2. You know what we did wrong? We failed to leave high cap, thus we were unable to capture the field. Putting a delay on respawning would of had NO effect on us getting the field.
-SW
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Wulfe, you cant even read in english, well, you can, but you doesn't understand a single bit, I'm tempted to answer you in spanish ... ... But, as usual, I'll give you a second chance.
The efforts and fun of 6, 7 or 8 players can be "erased" by a single respawner. Do you see any logic here?? Obviously, if you are only interested into vulching the spawner, all ok.
Basically, your answers are too "green", I never know if you are answering seriously or in a joke manner. What exactly do you mean with "MY incompetence to stablish a CAP"? Do you mean a CAP against respawners???
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Look it's simple, you didn't time your attack or you didn't do something right. You think that someone else should suffer for your lack of planning or timing.
"The efforts and fun of 6, 7 or 8 players can be "erased" by a single respawner. Do you see any logic here?? Obviously, if you are only interested into vulching the spawner, all ok."
Not if those 6, 7, or 8 players used their brains, took out the FH, VH and BHs at the base and brought the goon in right away.
You want the game changed to penalize someone trying to defend his field for your lack of planning or timing. That seems a little redundant doesn't it?
-SW
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Tac,
back in Airwarrior I suggest somthing similar. I suggest a 20,000 volt shot to your lower side if you saw the RED screen of death. I don't care how other fly, thats there concern. I fly to live. A 10 kill mission is not a success unless you land it. Thats my thinking.
Vati
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The poster twins and their cousin lazs are wrong as usual. There should be a 1 minute wait to respawn simply because zig and I want it thataway. If deja, sw, and lazs (or anyone else for that matter) don't like it, they can go find another game. That's a direct order from me, Grand Poopah of Aces High.
Don't even bother replying to my post, because it is obvious to everyone here that you guys are wrong.
:D
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SW,
You misinterprete "suddenly". That word has nothing to do with time to reup.
The rest of your sentence is blatantly (and obviously) correct. No need to be a genious to that :)
Now I'm the one who need new glasses, as I can't really see what your points are, since all of your assumptions are false: a) False: I just want a delay because It's simply not right to have the ability to respawn instantly. It is similar to the delay put on CV respawning. Also newbies would be less vulnerable as well to vulchers...do yo vulch much?. b) False: I am more often the respawner than not. I do enjoy posting missions in planner, and so executing it with my squaddies. c) False: and pretentious on your way. This position assumes there is MY way in opposition to OTHER's (maybe YOURS?) way. I have no "way" whasoever. Sometimes I dogfite, sometimes try to live. No way. Each ones flies the way each one wants. And it will be that way whatever measures, ideas, tweaks or whatever are implemented.
Do not mess question with your own answers, makes it difficult to answer properly. You need glasses because saying Mandoble seeks a solution for his own incopetence shows that either you are a newbie who have less than a month around here, you pay no attention to scores and kill streaks, or you are simply trying to provocate. Giving my little knowledge of yourself, I tend to think on the last one. ;)
On your own elaborated answer to the question, I am sorry to confess that my english is worse than my limited flying abilities. Would you be so kind as to ellaborate in simpler terms?
Again and again and again, I DO NOT want to impose anything. Just have the same right than you to give away Ideas or whatever that, in my particular view, would improve this game. Being less abrasive and violent than you does not grant that I will not be supporting them with less faith unless anyone proves me I'm wrong. Quite much the opposite.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Kidding aside, I'd like to see a 1 minute to respawn from the field ya just died from, if for no other reason, just to hear the goofs moan about having to wait the eternity of 1 minute.
:)
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I don't feel we should force restrictions on the main arena. If flying a 50 minute mission successfully is fun for you, that's great, you keep on doing it! actually, I do enjoy long bomber missions where I make it home alive. However, I know that some do not find it enjoyable. To force them to do something just because I like it is pretty dumb. It's akin to forcing someone to eat something they hate just because you like it. People pay $30/month to play this game and have fun. Introducing forced idle time into the game is not fun.
I agree with Deja and SW on field captures. You have the means of disabling flight (and carbombers as well) at fields you're trying to capture. It's not so hard for a small field, but it gets a bit harder to flatten medium and large fields. Yes, it requires *gasp* :eek: teamwork and planning! Risk = Reward. You want the reward of having a fully operational field after you capture it, you run the risk of constant fighter spawnings and suicidal carbombers. If you want a lower risk in taking the field, you have to just deal with not having a fully operational field when you're done.
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Ok, 2 LANCs to close the entire base, a B26 to kill the acks, 2 fighters for hi alt CAP, 2 fighters for lo alt CAP, 2 jabos because vehicles could have been spawned before buffs reach the target, and a goon and its backup.
That is 11 players ... Hey, are we playing the same game??? having 6 players synchronized to perform a mission is actually a record. In most if not all the capture attempts there is always the "random" factor of luck. A well planned mission of 6 players has its holes and I insist, a single zeke or IL2 spawner will compensate the efforts of a entire medium sized squad.
So, in your opinion, the attack must be perfectly sized, planned and timmed while the defense could be as quake-like as a single zeke spawning over'n over...
Lets suppose the opposite, lets include in the game a star wars DeathStar capable of nuking a entire base and with formidable defenses. Then you will say that the problem is in the defender side because they dont have a CAP of 50 fighters, but the use of the DeathStar is ok. Well, the Death Star, IMO, is as unrealistic as our actual unlimited spawns.
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Been here since Beta Tour 3, over a year ago.
I'll answer you piece by piece:
" I just want a delay because It's simply not right to have the ability to respawn instantly. It is similar to the delay put on CV respawning. Also newbies would be less vulnerable as well to vulchers...do yo vulch much?."
Not "right"... so making it a minute later makes it "right"? I fail to see the logistics in this. The CV is AI driven, the AI does not sit there twiddling it's thumbs going "gee I sure wish I didn't die". Newbies wouldn't be so vulnerable to vulchers... man you sound like a crusader. We know that isn't the real intent of this "idea", but I'll answer it anyway. People promote perking planes, like the La7, SpitIX, N1K2, the best planes for newbies. Where were you then defending the newbies rights to be able to fly something that's easy to learn?
"You need glasses because saying Mandoble seeks a solution for his own incopetence shows that either you are a newbie who have less than a month around here, you pay no attention to scores and kill streaks, or you are simply trying to provocate. Giving my little knowledge of yourself, I tend to think on the last one"
Yes I'm sure of that. Oh but lets dive into this knee deep and disect it.
Mandoble wants a delay on respawning because the fighter hangars come up in the middle of his field capture. I'm sorry but, GEEEEZZZZZUUUSSSSS that's self-evident what the problem is and what the solution is. Better planning/timing. Not penalizing everyone else in the arena because you screwed up.
So, how would this improve the game? I fail to see how. It would in fact hurt the game. People would leave. I know I would.
"Being less abrasive and violent than you"
So I guess that because I'm opposed to your idea, and I have offered several reasons as to why it's a bad idea and as to why this idea does not do anything other than hurt the game I am abrasive and violent.
-SW
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"So, in your opinion, the attack must be perfectly sized, planned and timmed while the defense could be as quake-like as a single zeke spawning over'n over..."
OH MY GEEZUS!!!! You Just said YOURSELF you had 11 players there that took down all the HANGARS. WHERE IS THIS ZEKE MAGICALLY COMING FROM?!!?
Mandoble, you need to find out what you want and what you think this idea is going to do before you reply again.
Read VERY carefully: If all the hangars are DOWN, NOTHING can SPAWN. Not EVEN a ZEKE.
and BAM! You have that field captured right there. Not too hard, now is it?
-SW
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Originally posted by Pepe:
Again and again and again, I DO NOT want to impose anything. Just have the same right than you to give away Ideas or whatever that, in my particular view, would improve this game.
What you propose in the initial post of your thread would do just that; it would impose a restriction on everyone who flies AH. It's one that most people would not be willing to accept. There's nothing wrong with suggesting ideas. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with suggested ideas in a civil manner. :)
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I vote for the random hard drive file deletions. :D
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There is entirely too many base captures going on for me to even remotely believe that they are as impossible as you make them out to be mandoble.
Cite scenarios all you want. The truth is they are just that... scenarios. For every one where a base wasn't taken on a coordinated effort, there is a story where a base was taken on a coordinated effort. There are no guarantees... though it seems some would rather push in that direction.
Delaying respawning has nothing to do with "what about if the FH come back up". It has to do with "its easier for us to maintain air superiority directly over a base". That is it. Pure and simple. This is a tool to make fighter supression at a field easier. Wow.. hardly any need to get those pesky FHs anymore.
The bases were made more difficult to take down for a reason. They were too easy before.
AKDejaVu
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ROFLOL Wulfe, this is comic. Do you really read??????? Cmon, try again, I know you are able to read the entire message. Having these 11 players is almost impossible, and anything less includes a random factor, even the 11 team could fail due a single flak spawning before VH is down.
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Mandoble, read very very carefully. You are SUPPOSED TO FREAKING PLAN FOR THE UNEXPECTED. IF YOU DO NOT YOU WILL NOT CAPTURE THE BASE. DO NOT GO INTO IT EXPECTING IT TO BE A CAKEWALK.
When the AKs are up and are determined to capture a base, it takes 10 of us max to get it barring an unforseen high cap.
Now lets say this single flak on the field spawns before the VH goes down. Take all the hangars down, bomb the flak. MAN! This is getting easier by the second.
What other scenarios do you want me to tell you? We are quite proficient at capturing fields, we've run into just about every scenario. I'm sure I can guide you to the light without imposing your penalty unto everyone in the arena because you simply did not plan out the attack.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
So I guess that because I'm opposed to your idea, and I have offered several reasons as to why it's a bad idea and as to why this idea does not do anything other than hurt the game I am abrasive and violent.
-SW
I think this pretty much proves that you need a new pair of glasses....and improved guessing abilities :)
On the thread subject, Ok, I see that a lot of people here thinks that a minute delay in respawn is a too aggressive measure, and a restricting one, thus unadvisable. In my opininion, is not such a hard punishment (if it's a punishment at all), but point taken.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Then explain to me what this means:
"Being less abrasive and violent than you does not grant that I will not be supporting them with less faith unless anyone proves me I'm wrong. Quite much the opposite."
Who's them? Supporting what? Less faith in who or what? Proves you wrong in what?
This sentence just doesn't make sense to me.
-SW
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SW
Again and again and again, I DO NOT want to impose anything. Just have the same right than you to give away Ideas or whatever that, in my particular view, would improve this game. Being less abrasive and violent than you does not grant that I will not be supporting them with less faith unless anyone proves me I'm wrong. Quite much the opposite.
Perhaps if you take the whole sentence, it would make sense. It might be my english, as well. If, after reading that, still does not make sense, tell me. I will try to make it clearer :)
Cheers,
Pepe
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The general thrust of this thread is one side wanting to make field captures even easier than they already are.
The other side is making the case that an organized properly planned strike makes it easy enough already.
Interestingly enough, the proponents of "easier capture" are mostly the guys that have posted in other threads asking for things that require more cooperation among players, more strategy, more planning, etc., etc.
However, NOW they want less of those things.
...gotta love it. :)
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Toad,
It's not a matter of coordination or easy capture. It's simply that I find the current situation unfair, and unrelated to a simulation. Of course, If you appeal to the game nature of this game/sim, I have to concede. In terms of simulation, not.
hehehe, and I love it too :)
Cheers,
Pepe
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I totally disagree Pepe.
That is not what I'm seeing in this thread.
Simulation? Than you should be rejoicing that it takes a combined, well-planned effort by several players to take a field.
Ten guys can easily take a field if it's done right. Timing, coordination, skill; all are required.
Yet the thrust of the respawn complaints is AWAY from those things.
I see you and Mandoble trying to be on two opposite sides of a position at the same time.
Making field capture easier by limiting spawning isn't going to generate the things you otherwise seem to value in a "simulation".
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Let me put it this way:
One knights dies at the hand of a bishop fighter, this bishop fighter is controlled by let's say Toad. I am the Knight that dies. My virtual pilot dies, so now I reup controlled a different pilot entity but for the same country and I am still alive in the real world but am controlling another knight "entity" in this virtual world war.
-SW
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Toad,
I am not talking about base captures. This thread relates to a perhaps too simple (and in your eyes, wrong) way of encouraging flying to live. Point taken from a majority that seems to consider this encouraging as punitive, restrictive and undesirable. The thing derived to the base capture aspect. I am not supporting the minute delay to favour field capture.
I certainly think there is lot of room left to improve with regards to field capture/damage. On a quick list, hangar damage/recovery model, bomb damage model, and, of course, instant irrestricted spawning. I think I've been quite consistent with this. And has no relation with teamwork, not even with the ease of capturing a base. I would support (strongly support) strengthening the hangars by a big deal, given a progressive damage and related spawn capability is modelled, and bomb damage is revisited. I support making airfields hard to capture, and teamwork. I fail to see where I am in both sides of a position.
If I am playing and having fun here is because its sim side. You will never find me supporting the opposite. :)
Cheers,
Pepe
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: Pepe ]
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Pepe, you know it is not your english ;D
Toad, you are wrong. It is not logical to need 11 or more players to take an initially "undefended" base and needing only one respawner to defend it if someone fails to close a single hanger. If attack should be carefully planned, sized and timed then I ask the same for the defense. The defenders should also keep CAPs over their bases, for example. If the defense fails to stop the attackers, then it is simply ridiculous to base an effective defense in what IMO is a playability "hole": the respawn.
Imagine the same "spawn" characteristic applied to a LANC downed over your base. You kill the LANC and the LANC respawns in the air near your base and ready to drop the bombs again until you destroy the BHs of its origin base.
My point is that the efforts needed to take a base are absolutelly enormous compared to the efforts needed to defend it in the wrong way, respawning.
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If this were baseball, Mandoble would be so far in left field he would no longer be in the stadium.
-SW
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SWulfe, I suppose your last point is to "simulate" the numbers, so more than a single real defender (the spawner) is in that base. Ok, then apply the same to the attackers... ...but, if an attacking LANC is downed he must to spend 15 minutes more to get to that base again ... So, the "numbers" argument is only valid for the defenders? We simulate six (for example) and only SIX attackers but infinite defenders???
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What's so hard to understand about that?
It's only unlimited if you screw the pooch and don't get all the Fighter Hangars down. You can leave the Bomber Hangars up, but kill the ammo bunkers and fuel tanks.
You ARE at THEIR field, I'd expect a lot of defenders at someone elses field when you are far away from your field.
I fail to see what is so difficult to understand about this scenario.
-SW
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You can leave the Bomber Hangars up, but kill the ammo bunkers and fuel tanks.[/QUOTE]
SWulfe, do you know what an IL2 is??
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Honestly... now you are just looking for excuses.
Then bomb all the bomber hangars down. No IL2s.
-SW
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Originally posted by Pepe:
Toad,
This thread relates to a perhaps too simple (and in your eyes, wrong) way of encouraging flying to live... I am not supporting the minute delay to favour field capture.
If that is the focus, your proposed solution does not deal with the situation that Mickey and DMF pointed out higher in the thread. It's easier to auger and re-up in one minute than it is to fly 5 minutes to get home and rearm.
I do that a lot, unless I'm flying with the squad (Rude is such a despot! ;) ). Out of ammo? Auger, re-up, get back in a fight sooner. Sorry, I just don't place any importance on landing or stats. I know that must disappoint you but hey, I'm just playing a game here.
Originally posted by Mandoble:
My point is that the efforts needed to take a base are absolutelly enormous compared to the efforts needed to defend it in the wrong way, respawning.
Bottom line Mandoble, this is a Gameplay issue. HTC recently made field capture tougher by dispersing hangars and other things. This happened after numerous BBS threads about base capture being too easy. Prior to the last revision you could kill two FH's with 3k just by dropping to hit between two close ones.
You apparently focus on one issue, respawn, now saying THAT makes capture too hard. As Deja pointed out, all you need do is kill the FH's. Carbombing? Take a moment and nail the ammo sheds.
HTC has provided the tools; use them or not, your choice.
You do still want HTC to encourage strategy, tactics and cooperation among players do you not?
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Also, you're telling me that out of 6 planes, one of you can't vulch that single pilot that keeps spawning an IL-2? ;)
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Here's a film of a mission field capture with 6 attackers and a goon. It's all about timing.
Field Capture with 7 or Less (http://www.members.home.com/k.plante/hogmission.ahf)
I'm not sure how imposing a "time out" for the defenders would have helped either them or us.
The problem I saw while flying in the MA was a bomber or two leveling a field then calling for a goon to come help. By the time a goon got there half the field is up and the goon gets shot down.
As for the original post, the ability to stay alive is already instilled in the game. You choose to return or not. I have no trouble going on a lone fighter sweep and returning home if I so choose. And I suck. Just as Cit. :)
(edit: Stupid UBB code :) )
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: grizz ]
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Originally posted by Nifty:
Also, you're telling me that out of 6 planes, one of you can't vulch that single pilot that keeps spawning an IL-2? ;)
Three of these six planes are in the buff category: LANCS + Goon for example.
So we have 3 fighters (one for hi alt CAP) with no unlimited ammo free to vulch.
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2 lancs = 2 4000 lbers and 20 1000 lbers correct? that's 2 hangars from the 4000 eggs, and 6 hangars from the 1000 eggs plus 2 1000lbs left over for other things.
According to Thunder's map, a small field as 5 hangars (counting the VH) I think 2 lancs have enough to take out all the hangars, so if your low cap fighter runs out of ammo vulching, you can level the last BH if you want. 2 B17's have enough payload to level a small field as well (edit, well, if they carry 1000lbers no, one hangar will be left if you assume 3 1000lbrs per hangar, you'd need one of the fighters to jabo the VH).
2 Lancs can even close hangars out at a medium field (8 total hangars via Thunder's maps, 4 FH, 3 BH, 1 VH)
Point most of us are trying to make is that base captures aren't supposed to be easy. It CAN be done with a small number of people, but it won't be done EVERY time it's attempted.
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: Nifty ]
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
So we have 3 fighters (one for hi alt CAP) with no unlimited ammo free to vulch.
Hell all ya gotta do is make sure at least one of those fighters is a F4U1-C and you got it made. :D
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Originally posted by Toad:
If that is the focus, your proposed solution does not deal with the situation that Mickey and DMF pointed out higher in the thread. It's easier to auger and re-up in one minute than it is to fly 5 minutes to get home and rearm.
I do that a lot, unless I'm flying with the squad (Rude is such a despot! ). Out of ammo? Auger, re-up, get back in a fight sooner. Sorry, I just don't place any importance on landing or stats. I know that must disappoint you but hey, I'm just playing a game here.
Toad,
That was the initial post intention :) (Dunno how it degenerated into the Base capture thingy...I guess BBS gremlins ;)). If you are in a hurry to reup, use the refuelling spots on the attacked airfield. Being a Stop-and-go, much faster to refuel than respawning. In the end, if you stay alive, you could be faster in the air.
I promise there was no hidden agenda on my post, and you can blame the capture thingy on "collateral BBS casualties".
Btw, I think the genuine, ultimate solution in this sense is what you say in your first post. It's just that we would have to perk RAM (the memory, I mean) :D
Cheers,
Pepe