Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Udie on May 15, 2000, 09:53:00 PM
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Tonight we did an ETO planeset with no icons in the SEA. It was an absolute blast. There were about 15-20 people there duking it out. No icons makes it VERY tense the WHOLE time your in the air (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'll be there again tomarow night at 8pm central (as long as nobody is using it for a squad duel or something) Thanks to the guys that came up tonight.
very much fun!
Udie
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Ah, we posted at the same time! Deleting my thread... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Udie,
Great idea and thanks to all who showed and participated in the spirit of the set-up...no icons and ETO set..it was a blast.
We had 6 Musketeers there tonite. Hell at times I just listened to the RW, it was intense to hear the calls and the confusion that no icons can bring.
I know some might say that the no icons means lower interest. But the fights last longer and are more intense, and it takes teamwork to survive.
Salute to all who participated tonight!
Cobra
Musketeer Escadrille
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Huge pucker factor and great fun,I`ll be a regular. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I didn't make it there until there were only about 7 left, but I had a blast! Always loved no tags fighting! BTW, guys, I flew around checking out bases. Another couple of pairs that would be cool to fly and fight out of would be A7 vs A30 (Near the volcano and rolling hills) and A18 and A34 which have a farther distance but have both the `flatter' terrain and the hilly terrain.
Besides, it just looks so cool seeing the planes without tags dogfighting! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yep, I had a blast flying no tags for the allies. (LOL I even managed more kills than deaths. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) The p51 really is a great plane with no tags. You can just zoom in at 450 mph, fire a few bursts, then get out fast. Telling the difference between a 109 or 190 and a p51 or p38 isn't that hard either. (The p51 and p38 are a silver dot.)
When I left and went to the MA I had some fun in the p51. In fact I had more fun than I have in quite a while. Sure there was f4u-1cs all over the place, but shooting one of them down really is a blast. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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I think the ideal compromise between no icons & full icons would be plane type at d3. Nothing else at all should be shown.
This lets you see a bounce comeing if you have good SA. Yet you still have to figure range & closure yourself.
If your a good pilot and make a stealthy approach bounces are still easy enough.
Just my 2$
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I didn't know it was going on! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I went to the Main!! How wooo is me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I'll try to get in there tonite but that is kinda early!
Have a nice day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 05-16-2000).]
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Had fun except when the spit started to pop up..thought it was a 190 so I went right past it...DOH!
Only thing I didn't like was not knowing who to make 6 calls to other than that it was a blast.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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Serious question guys....
Did these fights all end up like the HA Arena in WB's?
Twisty turny furball fights at 2k down to the deck between the two closest bases?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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My first flight I was killed by a P51 and P38 around 15k,the next was around 8k at the beginning but the pony dove for the deck-too bad my g10 was able to catch him for a 30mm enema, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) then I caught another pony around 5-6k. The 3rd engagement was at 2-3k where I dove into 4 ponys and wacked a p38 before getting my own lead enema,very hard to judge the E state of planes and distance but still great fun! Oops almost forgot when I snuck up on Cobras B26 in my 109,don`t know the distance I was at but his plane was huge in my gunsight-just as I pulled the trigger he hit me with the tail guns and blew me out of the sky-estimate 100-150 yds based on past B26 kills.
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This time... yes and no.
I was 14K when RA slid up on my 6 from below. I saw him and my countryman behind, so I did some split-S's and tried to drag him in front of my friendly... who didn't get him. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
The shiny 51 is a big, fat target. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
So I grabbed a Spit and did what the LW wanted to do... I hugged the earth and, like a catfish, waited for stuff to "swim over". Trouble is, the shiny fish kept chasing me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Still it was fun. Got into a good one with Ripsnort... he was 10K or so, lone wolfing. I was low and tried to climb his low 6. He spotted me and dove. I was in real trouble, because he had lots of E and was using it right. I broke hard left and down, then reversed to catch his exit. Too far for a shot yet.
He zoomed up, chandelle and down he comes again. Same thing, hard down and left, reverse... closer, but no shot yet.
He goes for it a third time, and this time when I reverse he is just close enough to follow up the chandelle. As his nose dropped over the top he got it.
That was near the ground, but it was 1 vs. 1, and the type of fight I enjoy (not because I won, because it was a bad situation I managed to do the right thing in- for once!).
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Only had a short time in there last night, but I will be baaaaaaaack!
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
I./JG2~Richthofen~
=CO=Panzer Group Afrika-15th Panzer division
JG2 Communications Officer
Aces High 1st Training Corps
CLICK>> JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
CLICK>> 15th Panzer Division (http://members.tripod.com/deutcheafrikakorps/index.htm)
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
Too often, we lose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when
someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it
only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm, grasp the joystick button,
and shoot the sucker down!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-16-2000).]
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Didnt have the time to jump in there last night. Ill try and make it tonight. The radio chatter I heard from the Mskts was intense.
I would rather fly for Axis though. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
JagdNine
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Originally posted under "Tagless Delight" which for some reason I can't remove.
Tonight thanks to Udie we had a tagless scenario in the SEA. US ETO planes vs. GE Haven't had this much fun since the tagless matches in the F place. I learned that it's not a good idea to use the 38 as the cons are absolutely sure of what you are. I also learned that a B-26 is way bigger, uglier and deadlier than any 109 when I jumped my m8 Cobra and he blew me out of the sky. Fighting was intense and even though I was mostly a target I had a great time. Though the limitations of lack of perspective and range are there, once you get up close and personal it's super. There's nothing like being so close to the con that you can see the sweat pouring off his back and giving him diaper rash while you do everything in your power to give him relief. Fights are intense and the RW chatter is totally immersing. We had a good turnout and the comments were really encouraging from many of the staltwarts. It was also fun to fly on the same side with guys you're normally trying to kill. If you had a good time and would like to see more of this express your thanks to Udie and post your experience.
Beeg
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Well for the last few weeks i have seen alot of familiar faces working on the no icon concept.
We have had a blast doing this plane recognition gets a little easier with experience.
On Luftwaffe planes you can see either some yellow coloring or the spiral spinner or the cross seem to shimmer. and of course
the shape of the wings .
The spits spinner stands out as do its elliptical wings.
P51s really stand out but i have seen the p38 almost dissapear into the haze of the horizion.
All fights have the chance of ending up on the deck . In fact for a spit or a Luftwaffe plane in thier camo scheme it is a prudent weapon for evasion.
Cobra and his crew showed with style how it was done. The Musketeers had RW on and showed what an advantage it was.
Some great fights ensued unfortunately i ended up as the lead collector for the Musketeers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nay sayers be damned its not perfect but its workable
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Aces High Correspondent for www.dogfighter.com (http://www.dogfighter.com)
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Weazel,
The cool thing about that 26 is its low-level camo scheme. Hell, Corwin and I couldn't even hold formation at low level because we couldn't see each other that well.
When you and Udie made your first run on me earlier, the only warning I had was that you had shot down Corwin who was my wingy, but in a trailing 6 position. Even at that, down low, I couldn't make out exactly where you guys were (those 109's blend in with the terrain very well low)....anyway, I had to wait for you guys to open up so I could use the machine guns lighting up to really target you guys.
You did knock out my right engine, right gear, right flap, right elavator, well you get the idea, I was able to make it back at ditch her on the runway.
Funny thing was...on the way back I was low and smoking, and I hear one of my squadmates yell out over RW that he was diving on a low con....I think, hmmmm, is a bandit diving on my six to finish me, so I hop into the tail guns and I see this streak of a plane coming in on me hard...I open up on him, flame him and find out it was my squadmate that called the low con. I apologized very much, then said next time say it is a low and smoking con....lol!
Verm,
The fights were at all alts. Some up high, some low, some would start high and spiral down, it was truly a mix.
Swager!!
Get your *** in there! It is a blast, I think you will enjoy it.
I know its not for everyone, and I don't think I'm better than anyone else, its just fun for me.
BTW, HTC....you cannot taxi a B-17 out of the hangars at A14 in the SEA, you can a 26 though.
What a blast!
Cobra
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Fun is one thing, but no icons does not make for more a more realistic sim. Ironically it makes for a less realistic sim. Eventually you develop the tactic of flying a hard to see plane, and attacking your enemy from below. In dogfights, you try to stay below your oppononent so that even if he gets a shot at you, it is likely to be inaccurate as you are nearly invisible to him. BnZ is just about impossible. Flying a silver US bird is an invitation to a gangbang.
I gave up last night after following a spit around for 30 seconds trying to get a positive ID on him. By the time I was sure he was a spit and not a 109, I was Hispano fodder to his buddy. I'd had 3 20mm's ready to liquify him the whole time.
No icons does a good job of simulating air combat taking place at about 30 minutes after sunset, or where all the pilots are half blind. It sound good to talk about it, but in practice it's actually more game-like than flying with icons on.
Pilots probably get 95% of their info through their eyeballs. The visuals available on a PC just don't cut it. We'll be ready for no icons when the technology is.
ra
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Ra,
Is it fun for some, yes, for others no.
Is a big icon above your head giving you id, range, rate of closure from over 4.5 miles away more realistic than no icons....absolutely not.
There was a reason they had those aircraft recognition cards, as there was a reason the allies painted on those invasion stripes on anything with wings (I know mainly from ground fire), but it served its purpose in the air as well, just as early in the war, the planes would have their camo scheme changed from summer to winter. You still want to attack from above with alt advantage, but at least now you can egress low, much like they did in R/L. The didn't cons upen up at each other from 1000 yds away as a norm.
IMO no icons does a fairly decent job, not perfect, but a better job of protraying R/L than what you are saying and the icons we have now. It actually does a better job of simulating air combat...the fights are closer in, the opponents need to hold fire to be sure, and wingman tactics are a must...plus the bounce is more of an option which is where most kills came from. As for the mustang being a silver beacon, I agree, but it also cuts down on the recognition issue for both sides, so if its 51's against 109's then if its dark, its marked. Friendly fire and the fog of war are there as well. No icons simulates that aspect of air combat, which was once the shooting began it was easy to look around and find a once full sky, now empty.
Here's the nice thing about AH's setup right now....there is the Main Arena for those who don't feel no icons is right, and the SEA for those who like the idea, right, wrong or indifferent.
I know when I'm in a Cessna 172 flying along, I sure the hell can't identify what kind of a plane a dot is from over 4.5 miles away, 8.0k yards (I'm talking small single engine planes), let alone its aspect, rate of closure or any of those things.
I won't argue with someone who says it just doesn't suit their style or taste, and I won't argue that the current technology state doesn't perfectly imitate R/L, but I don't think its as bad for simulating not just the flight aspect but also the immersion aspect as you are saying.
Maybe the middle ground (before technology catches up to our wishes) is a different icon system.
Cobra (off soapbox now, sorry)
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Cobra,
I was the 109 that shot down your b26 wingman (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Funny part is that i was on his dead level 6 and I didn't even see him until I was about 500 yrds away. LOL I thought I was chasing a plane about 2 miles away! I put about 10 30mm rounds into his tail and it fell off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) then you quickly shot me down too.
As for icons, I'm torn. I realy think they are needed out far up to about d2.0 so you can tell the bogies flight path and attitude. The problem with that is that it would all but kill suprise attacks. But for now it doesn't matter anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'll back in there tonight at 8pm central time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and I can't wait (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Udie
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Cobra....
Great post...some astute observations. <salute>
I do think that we need some form of short range friendly icons though, to balance the monitor problem against real life vision. Unfortunately, it appears that the current AH software options only afford an ON or OFF methodology.
Regards,
Badger
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What I see is the problem is that escaping in the shiny fish is not possible low... and it is quite easy to follow shiny fish through anything they can do.
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Nature has a way of making things come out even, the flashy and visible fish is made fast. The ugly slow one is made dark to blend into the terrain.
Beeg
Originally posted by Kieren:
What I see is the problem is that escaping in the shiny fish is not possible low... and it is quite easy to follow shiny fish through anything they can do.
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WTG Udie! Looking forward to this the moment I am up and flying again. Been reading this BB for 3 weeks without flying. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Soon, very soon I will be back up. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You can expect several from the 332nd Flying Mongrels to participate! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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daddog
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
Snapshots (http://www.ropescourse.org/snapshot.htm)
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cdaddog.jpg)
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes.
That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.
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Re:
Originally posted by Cobra:
I know when I'm in a Cessna 172 flying along, I sure the hell can't identify what kind of a plane a dot is from over 4.5 miles away, 8.0k yards (I'm talking small single engine planes), let alone its aspect, rate of closure or any of those things.
There are definetely some limitations, however, perhaps somebody could englighten me about just how difficult or bandwith effective it would be to improve on our ability to judge altitude, distance, direction etc. My last programming was on a CoCo in basic back in the 80's so I have no idea about how these programs work with Direct X and other internet goodies but I suspect the whole program resides on our computer and only the position, direction etc. information is exchanged. Using altitude perspective I'm guessing that HT has various shapes that are called whenever position equals X which gives you a perspective on your altitude. To conserve something or other these aren't as many as they could be thus 20K and 10K look almost the same if not exactly the same. If there was a way to make the download bigger even on a CD then all these things would improve, right? I'll be there tonight!
Beeg
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Beegerite-
Try outrunning a G10 on the deck... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I have a friend with a 19 in. monitor. I play on a 17in. The difference in plane size is considerable. No icons, IMO, gives just to big an edge to people with bigger screens.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 05-16-2000).]
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I hope that one day we can set the icons from d3.0 to d2.0 . This would still allow bounces. On my 17" monitor once the con is 2.0 or closer I can pretty much tell what he is doing.
I had another blast tonight btw (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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Flying in there right now with a 17" monitor, it is friggin' fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). If ya don't like it go the MA. We need a no icons HA bad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-16-2000).]
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WOW...What a blast! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Heart pounding...hand sweating action!
Flying near a con and looking for signs..silver wings? Blast it!! Twin boom tail? Blast it!
Let's do it again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I had a ball (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It realy is a rush and the pucker factor goes up like a saturn V (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Best to describe what it is like if to tell bout my sorties...
I left my JG2 buddies to even out the numbers so I flew allied (knight).
First sortie I am chasing two dots (not identified) in an LA5... when I get shot by jagdnine in a spit. He tell's me he's sorry but that the LA5 is a dark plane and not easy to make out from a 109 or 190 if you dive in at speed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
2nd sortie I take a spit (big elliptical wings so easy to mark out as allied) I take off from 14 and head NE... constant weaving to check 6 and look below. After 10 min I see tracers very low on the deck so I go down to investigate... suddenly the tracers disapear but I see a dark sillouette and settle on it's low 6. Closer closer... I'm pos on the ID but miscalculate my closurerate so I skid violantly to lose speed then he breaks... I follow him and rip his wing. (without the skid I would have surprised him totaly). I settle back in a climbing pattern when at 12 K I spot a dot lvl. I dive below it but he spots me and goes up.. I am now close enough to see it's not white (pony) double tailed (FTD) or elliptical (spit) so I chase him. Suddenly I see tracers fly by I push the stick and hit full left rudder... the guy overshoots and I see a HUGE 109 (big crosses (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) I'm lining up for him when to my total amasement the 109 that overshot begins shooting at the other 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)... I rip up the overshooting 109 and then finish the other one... On my way back to base I get zoomed by a pony and a FTD checking me out (didn't see them) glad to know the guys had good eyes (big monitors) to see I was friendly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
A big <S> to all the guys flying there and specialy to AMMO (he was the 109 that overshot me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif))
BEE
ps: you'll see me alot in there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yes I must say it was incredible fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I found that I was using my zoom mode to ident some planes. Very exciting. The only thing is I would like to see Icons actually shut off so no one is tempted (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) all in all I give it 2 thumbs up .
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Great story Bee! You must be suicidal to fly alone in a no-icons athmosphere! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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GRAAAAAAAAAAH
I missed out!
Guess I am afraid of learning jsut how much I depend on icons.
Lemme know when you do it next time, I am in!
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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you know it HBlair!
no Icons is fantastic and works great at 1600x1200 on a 19 inch monitor (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I know the most exciting fights I have had are with Icons off
it seems like many of the advocates for no Icons hold a pilots certificate, maybe they know somthing about looking for airplanes in the big sky and how hard they can sometimes be to see. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
however it takes a large monitor and hi resolution but it's pretty damn close to realistic.
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Ra: I agree 100%. I hate icons, but some kind of aid is need to bridge the gap between little specks on my screen and what one can see in a real fighter.
Here's what a fighter pilot had to say on the subject: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002920.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002920.html)
Matches pretty closely what other fighter pilots have stated in print.
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Having been one of the main guys in the WB HA back when I flew WB, I like no icons,it's much more real to me. Having said that, 'tho
guys, I will caution you. Do not fall into the HA trap, don't tell people things like you don't like it KMA, you don't ever,ever win converts by being insulting, and let's lose the "real pilots fly HA" kind of attitude also this is a sim, and frankly, your ability to get a 172 airborne IRL has no real relation to that easy chair you're sitting in right now, kapisch? Every single one of us does things in this sim that would horrify combat aircrew, know it folks I do things here I never did IRL, (as evidenced by the fact that I'm still here) So let's tell folks how much fun it is to actually surprise a target, let's get folks in here, instead of creating another HA ghosttown.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Sorry but I agree with ra.
He knows what he's talking about, and that is exactly what the Warbirds HA turned into.
In real life the ground is not a homongenous texture set (we have what... 6 different textures?) that is endlessly repeated, using the same basic colors, which causes the problems he outlined.
My personal preferences were the Scenario Light (SL) settings in Warbirds. It was a nice middle ground. I don't remember now what the exact settings were now, but you got a little of both worlds.
But hey guys... if you enjoy it, go for it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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pzvg,
Good points, and well taken.
I only brought up the 172 as it relates to identifying dots at 4.5 miles and how the icons give you way more info than you can discern in R/L. I did not mean it any other way. I was not making a statement about a 172 and flying in my easy chair. I agree with you on that!
No system is perfect, so I guess its to each his own what we feel is fun.
It is fun in there. For some because it seems more immersive, for others because it is a change of pace.
I guess I would say if you try it and have fun then thats ok. If you try and don't have fun then that's ok too.
But at least its fun to try something different.
I do think there can be a middle ground somewhere with the icon system.
Cobra
[This message has been edited by Cobra (edited 05-17-2000).]