Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JB88 on August 14, 2007, 02:39:46 AM
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what period in history is most similar to our own?
why?
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If you wanna know the truth, JB...We'd make a mistake to try to compare current events with anything that's already transpired.
Economic recessions, Illegal immigration, Social system problems, The "War on terror", Election discrepancies, Drug abuse, education failures, etc...
We've never had one period in U.S. history that's had all of these things transpiring at once.
P.S. Feel free to add any of today's problems' I didn't list.
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so, you don't feel that any comparisons can be drawn?
what about world history?
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The fall of the Roman empire.
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You will see occasional comparisons on a subject or two, but not the total sum of problems and issues.
We've changed, both technologically, and culturally, too far from anything else. Oh, you can draw a comparison on one or two points. Politically, It seems' a lot like Vietnam, the way the situation in Iraq is in the media. Economically, with the crash of the housing market, with the way that financial institutions' have rather carelessly lent money, and the susequent effect on the Stock market/economy, It looks a little like the start of the great depression.(The government's been infusing alotta money into the market though, I don't think it'll get that bad. Well, I hope not.) The variables knock too many things out of whack, though. Trying to go back and say that these exact things are happening the same way they did before, though, Is not really gonna fly. It's just too different a world we live in, compared to any other event in history.
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StSanta might have the closest thing to it. But the way the Roman empire fell, and The decline of the U.S., are too different in many ways.
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David Walker seems to think so.
Learn from the fall of Rome, US warned
By Jeremy Grant in Washington
Published: August 14 2007
The US government is on a ‘burning platform’ of unsustainable policies and practices with fiscal deficits, chronic healthcare underfunding, immigration and overseas military commitments threatening a crisis if action is not taken soon, the country’s top government inspector has warned.
David Walker, comptroller general of the US, issued the unusually downbeat assessment of his country’s future in a report that lays out what he called “chilling long-term simulations”.
These include “dramatic” tax rises, slashed government services and the large-scale dumping by foreign governments of holdings of US debt.
Drawing parallels with the end of the Roman empire, Mr Walker warned there were “striking similarities” between America’s current situation and the factors that brought down Rome, including “declining moral values and political civility at home, an over-confident and over-extended military in foreign lands and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government”.
“Sound familiar?” Mr Walker said. “In my view, it’s time to learn from history and take steps to ensure the American Republic is the first to stand the test of time.”
Complete article is Here >> (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/80fa0a2c-49ef-11dc-9ffe-0000779fd2ac.html)
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There's some truth to that, Rolex, but-
The roman's had some different issues' that they had. And their position and standing with other nation's was somewhat different, as well. I dunno.
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Originally posted by JB88
what period in history is most similar to our own?
why?
Seems I was pondering this same question in my bathtub just the other night... October I believe,,,
Suds all around... Several rubber duckies at my feet. A mean Aligator nearing my belly. Then a Missle poped up and the duckies moved in to blockade it ....
The Aligator didn't like it but the Duckies were persistant!!!
A total standoff.... just one fart would have sent the whole bathtub off.
Then... Then.... THEN!!!!!
I got out and dried off....
:D
Mac
Hid my Missle....
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the roman empire started it's decline right after the libruls took over control of the senate, yes, i see a parallel.:lol
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clear parallels can be drawn to the decline of any failing empire
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Originally posted by StSanta
The fall of the Roman empire.
Thats pretty much what I was going ot say as well
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My Roman empire similarities are:
The wide use of slave labor, in this case indentured servitude from illegals. Now, even if you own a 1/4 acre lot and are in perfect health you can afford lawn care or a weekly maid for your 1500 sq foot house.
The free spirit of Bacchus is alive and well.
The use of mercenary forces -- contractors -- to help fight our wars.
The lack of real power among the plebeian class, but the need to keep us happy with bread and circuses.
Charon
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essay questions? Are we getting graded on these?
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2007???? :D
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Tomorrow.
Because it will be SSDD.
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1950-1953
Korean war happening without causing any hardship on the home front. Government creating a boogieman called communism to scare the population into submission.
I give myself an A.
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I would say yesterday, feels pretty much like today.
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The correct answer is truly none.
Relying too heavily on historical parallels is a trap easily fallen into. Yes we can find some loose parallels with the late Roman Empire, and they can enlighten us to some degree, but when we start saying that 'this will happen because it happened before like this' we are playing dangerous and foolish games with history. History does tend to repeat itself when lessens aren't leaned, but that only goes so far.
One could easily draw simple historical parallels with Rome, various French republics, Rapa Nui (easter island), some Chinese dynasties, Weimar Germany, the recession of the British empire, loss of Spanish predominance in Europe and the new world, the sacrifice of the 'greatest generation' during the second world war, colonialism in Africa, the Persian empire and its decline, Japanese isolationism before and contrasted with the Meiji restoration, Julius Caesar's rampage through Gaul and his excursion to Britain, the Opium Wars, Cold War paranoia run rampant, Ludwig II of Bavaria and his mania, Harold ticking off William and sparking the Norman invasion of 1066, India and Pakistan combined under British rule and where that got them, and gosh, we'll just wrap it up with Vietnam.
These parallels can be instructive, but should only be taken so far, and with a grain of salt at that. None of these would be complete parallels and many are mutually exclusive. I wouldn't say it's a mistake to compare now with times past, just make sure you keep in mind the limitations of that.
What period in history is most similar today other than none?
BugGun is right, Yesterday.
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so, when do the Visigoth's invade the USA?
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The Roman Republic fell long before the Empire...
Are the anti-gun types here sure they want to take away the 2nd Amendment? Do they trust our under-paid, under-appreciated cops and soldiers that much?
Anyway, if you want to compare America and the Fall of the Roman Empire, that's fine, but there's another way it could go is all I'm saying. Republics don't usually last all that long (some exceptions).
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I would say vietnam for the reason that the we are realy not winning the war, we have a lot of protesters and it happens that we will have a demorcrat in office soon.
thats just what I think
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I would agree with some kind of loose Vietnam parallel, but because we went in foolishly, in the wrong manner and for the wrong reasons, absolutely failed to understand our enemy or the psyche of the population were were 'helping', and a large portion of the population who thought they were helping by protesting against it was/is so drugged out and naive that they have no real conception of the world outside of their borders.
As long as we learned our lesson about agent orange it'll be a start. It would be just like the pentagon brass to try to defoliate Iraq!
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I'll have to go along with the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire as well.
There are some similarities and correlations:
Frontier
Rome started to stagnate when there were no more frontiers they were pushing into. Essentially, they stopped at the limits at which figs, olives, and grapes could be cultivated. Without new frontiers and conquests, Rome started to stagnate toward eventual collapse.
America's growth and current size is also related to frontiers. The westward expansion across the continent. The frontiers of science and technology during the Space Race and rise of computer technology and the internet. But, America is no longer the leader in many technologies and sciences. Other countries are taking the lead. America's ever declining education system is a large factor in this decline. America really has no true frontier now and is becoming stagnant.
Armed Forces
Look at who fought for Rome during it's history in it's legions. Able-bodied, property-owning male citizens during the early years, then supplemented by auxiliaries, who were not Roman citizens, then became a professional force drawing from the poorest classes to fill it's ranks, to eventually hiring mercenaries to fight for Rome as it's own citizens were less apt to fight for Rome themselves.
America's armed forces followed a slightly different path. Professional soldiering was well respected, more or less, up until the 60's. There have been periods of conscriptions. In the past few decades, America has gotten other countries to fight by Proxy and has even gone back to the use of mercenaries in the form of Contractors and Private Military Companies (Mercs have been a constant throughout history for the most part, save the decade between the 70's and 90's due to tales from Africa, professional standing armies are more rare than mercs in history).
Americans are less likely to volunteer to serve (military has trouble meeting the larger end strength numbers approved by Congress without huge bonuses, and today's military is small, percentage wise, to many times in our history), less likely to serve a long term, and as a society and politically against putting it's troops into combat for extended periods.
Barbarian Uprisings
Rome had uprisings along it's borders, sensing the decline in Roman might, and striking where they could. Their military was overstretch to meet the threats and thus Rome was sacked.
America has terrorists sensing the decline in American resolve and hitting where they see weakness. The military is overstretched trying to meet the threat.
Dependent on Foreign Resources
With Rome, it was primarily wheat and grain from Egypt that kept the mob at bay and fed.
With America, it is cheap foreign oil that we are dependent on. Also, most of America is "owned" by foreign interests in the world economy.
Second Class Citizens
Rome had it's slaves. Toiling away to support the empire at every level. Slave riots were not unheard of.
America has illegal immigrants now, toiling away to support the agricultural and construction industries of the nation. Slaves, slave riots, and race riots also in America's past.
Bread and Circus
Some similarities can be found between the major entertainments for the masses for each time. For Romans it was gladiators, public executions, chariot races, animals vs humans and the like. Blood, violence and gore were popular. Drug /drinking use was a problem for both times. As long as the mob had food and entertainment, they were controllable.
In America, you've got "pro wrestling" with 5 year old kids in the stands yelling "kill him!", football actually becoming more violent off the field, NASCAR, hockey, video of when animals attack and criminals being taken down by law enforcement, horror movies,... even in the news, "if it bleeds: it leads" is still the norm. As long as the proles have t.v., entertainment, and fast food, they are controllable.
Self Important Arrogance and ignoring Crumbling Infrastructure
Rome was certainly arrogant in it's own importance and looked down on all "barbarians". Near the end, public works started to fall into disuse and disrepair. Many cities in the Roman Empire were not safe to travel at night.
America holds some self important arrogance as a nation of peoples. Beyond national pride there are many that truly feel America is the best country on the planet without question, but the facts are it's place among the world community in matters of health care, education, life expectancy, child mortality, economics, standards of living, and other areas has been slipping for years. America is still a great place to live in general, and some places in particular, but it does not really hold the top spot in any category you care to mention beyond the strength of it's military might.
Add to that America's infrastructure is crumbling. Bridges, roads, canals, levies, the power grid, reservoirs and dams, water systems. It's all in need to repair and upgrading, yet politicians and special interests funnel money to "new" projects. That rot extends to inner cities and despair in some communities and overriding crime.
Politics and Politicians
Early Rome and Early America's politics and politicians were both generally of better character, lower frequency of graft and corruption, and actually served the people much better than the quality of politician they would get latter in their histories.
Late Roman government was little more than elected positions bought and paid for with cash. Halls of government filled with corruption, abuse, and self interests, and Rome and the people suffered in the end.
America's current government and bureaucracy.......
Religion
Rome saw the rise of Christianity. America sees a bit of resurgence in religion these days.
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I'm sick and tired of this bull**** about comparing a losing vietnam policy to a losing Iraq policy. The truth is, neither were being lost.
What we soon realized is that the Media, during ALL periods of the US history has the power to portray a war how they see fit, regardless of what is actually happening.
Game, set, match, The Tet Offensive. The tet offensive was actually won by the US forces. We basically kicked North Vietnamese ass. But by the media's misportrayal of a loss by the US forces, American sentiment never recovered. We lost the Vietnam war solely on the fact that we stopped trying.
The same thing is true of the Iraq war. Anyone in the media can selectively report what they want, even bend the truth. Because none of us are over at Iraq, we can't really question what they say.
As to which period the current political situation mirrors most? That would be the American Period. That's 1700 to 2007. Everything you see happening today has happened MULTIPLE times ever since the beginning of our country.
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Originally posted by StSanta
The fall of the Roman empire.
The Fall of America Will come even I know that. Just when and how are the 2 things we won't know until it happens. I wonder what the world will be like without a superpower, maybe China will become a superpower who knows.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm sick and tired of this bull**** about comparing a losing vietnam policy to a losing Iraq policy. The truth is, neither were being lost.
What we soon realized is that the Media, during ALL periods of the US history has the power to portray a war how they see fit, regardless of what is actually happening.
Game, set, match, The Tet Offensive. The tet offensive was actually won by the US forces. We basically kicked North Vietnamese ass. But by the media's misportrayal of a loss by the US forces, American sentiment never recovered. We lost the Vietnam war solely on the fact that we stopped trying.
The same thing is true of the Iraq war. Anyone in the media can selectively report what they want, even bend the truth. Because none of us are over at Iraq, we can't really question what they say.
As to which period the current political situation mirrors most? That would be the American Period. That's 1700 to 2007. Everything you see happening today has happened MULTIPLE times ever since the beginning of our country.
Isn't he cute when he makes stuff up.
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Originally posted by Latrobe
The Fall of America Will come even I know that. Just when and how are the 2 things we won't know until it happens. I wonder what the world will be like without a superpower, maybe China will become a superpower who knows.
China is a regional power. China will become a superpower. It is active in South America geopolitics in addition to it's regional influence in Asia. It is growing and prospering in leaps and bounds. It's economy is huge and growing. It is actively upgrading infrastructure, developing a viable space program, and overall growing at a breakneck pace. Whether it can sustain that pace is another matter. It is the 900 pound gorilla in geopolitics.
The EU is another up and coming world power, as a group, but are not very committed politically or socially to using their military to secure their interests around the world. Their overall economic power, as a whole, is equivalent, and growing larger than, the United State's overall economy, which is one reason many supported free trade in the America's like NAFTA; to counter EU's growth.
India is another wild card in the long run.
Some worry about another Caliphate growing amongst the Muslim world, and there are many in that would that want another Caliphate --- but they all want to be the Caliph, so they'll keep killing one another in the attempt,.... so I see it less than likely. Ongoing efforts will continue to be a destabilizing. influence, which can be as great as the influence generated by a superpower.
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personally i think after the second world war, america turned into everything the revolutionaries had fought against. shame really, because in the early days america was one of the most just and free places in the world, now it's almost exactly the opposite.
i hope that changes sometime.
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Yesterday. Today is pretty similar to yesterday.
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Originally posted by Bosco123
I would say vietnam for the reason that the we are realy not winning the war, we have a lot of protesters and it happens that we will have a demorcrat in office soon.
thats just what I think
Check out a few history books.
Under Abrams, we were starting to win in Vietnam. I refer you to Sorley's A Better War as a good non-fiction introduction to this remarkable concept. A good book for you as well, MT.
We have no where near the number of people protesting Iraq as we did protesting Vietnam in the early 70's. Not even close, not as much public demonstration, not any where near as much violence.
Lastly.... it was Nixon, a Republican that was elected to "end the war". A Democrat will likely be elected to "end the war" in Iraq but that certainly would not be a similarity.
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
personally i think after the second world war, america turned into everything the revolutionaries had fought against. shame really, because in the early days america was one of the most just and free places in the world, now it's almost exactly the opposite.
i hope that changes sometime.
America turned into everything the revolutionaries had fought against even before the ink on the Articles of Confederation were dry. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
personally i think after the second world war, america turned into everything the revolutionaries had fought against. shame really, because in the early days america was one of the most just and free places in the world, now it's almost exactly the opposite.
i hope that changes sometime.
Not at all!
Slavery, lack of universal suffrage, the ongoing Indian wars......
We have made progress in many areas, and I wouldn't say that the early days were necessarily the best. It may have been "one of the most" comparatively in its day, but lets not kid ourselves.
Good post tedrbr, but a better interpretation is that the Roman Empire faded away, not fell. In many ways it actually continued. The eastern empire lasted as a political force for many centuries past the era of Rome's predominance. Much of the political and administrative structures of the western empire survived and even flourished in the form of the christian church.
If anything the western empire slowly turned to regionalism and even localism, leading to the feudal structures of social and political organization that brought Europe through medieval times. With the logistical base of the empire gone and public attitudes shifting, the power base of the empire shifted to local land lords. Corporate interests may be paralleled here, but that is also very problematic.
If anything right now the US is shifting to a more collectivist stance. Your comparison is apt and enlightening, and you make many good points about the state of our Union today, but don't follow a parallel too far or it may lead you off the page of the history book.
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yes well with regard to our (cough) trading partner all I have to say regarding this partner is three gorges dam. problem solved.