Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yarbles on August 14, 2007, 06:49:32 AM
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Ive tried slowly climbing up from their 6:(
Anyone able to say how its done properly?
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Coming in from above in slashing attacks. Most times I'll get out front a bit then cut in and dive to where the bombers are goin (lead turn), fire on an engine or two coming in on the bombers 7-9 oclock, and booming out on their 3-2 oclock possition. Diving a bit low on one pass, maybe not the next time.
It takes a few passes... unless your in one of those big cannon jobs, but as long as you stay fast and take different paths in and out each time, you shouldn't have any trouble taking them out.... unless it's 999 :D
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Get in front of them and fly straight at their nose and empty your guns into the bombers cockpit.
It takes patience to set up but provides the quickest kill with the fewest bullets and exposure to defensive fire.
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Strange how so many fly into the rear gun. I was once jumped by an ME who slashed and I was almost helpless against him. The really good sticks seem to adjust tactics by the bomber they are attacking.
Another thing I see guys do is to line up the bombers center and just pour it on. Well those 50s can reach out a long ways and a B-17 is pretty tough. I took out a 110 at almost 1,000 K cause he was creeping in to use his cannons thinking I'd never hit him from that distance but thats what happens when you creep in and the gunner can spray a few rounds at you to range you and then opens up with 3 planes worth of 50s. With zoom we can see the rounds hit you from that far and then we open up.
I rely on sneak tactics as my main defense anyways and try to limit my exposure to radar and enemy. The way I see it if I can take out a target and never see a bogey then its a success. I'll take an hour and 1/2 to get Lancs up, do an end around, and take out a refinery from 25,000'.
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Fly at historical speeds and they won't fall behind into a tail chase. At historic speeds they will overtake and make slashing attacks.
But, bomber pilots in this game don't fly anything but full throttle.
EDIT: Sorry for not clarifying, but this means you have to be fast to attack them successfully. A hurr2c can't catch them, so it's a bad choice. A P51 is faster. Usually something with cannons is best (but 50cals do work as well).
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Originally posted by Blooz
Get in front of them and fly straight at their nose and empty your guns into the bombers cockpit.
It takes patience to set up but provides the quickest kill with the fewest bullets and exposure to defensive fire.
KA-boom.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Fly at historical speeds and they won't fall behind into a tail chase. At historic speeds they will overtake and make slashing attacks.
At historic speed, they still will attack a bomber from it's six.
In most cases, it's not the bombers speed, but the fighters lazyness and lack of brains thad results in such a attack. Just look at the myriad of tail chase attacks on buffs cruising at 5000ft, hardly an alt that leaves you no other choice...
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Historically at 5000feet they'd be flying 160mph or so. I don't care who ya are, you're going to attack buffs smarter when you can. Even at 5k they're still pretty fast. It's easier to overtake them most times than it is up at 15k+, but still their speed is still a factor (and pilot laziness) in the number of pure dead6 attacks we see.
IMO most pilots only do dead6 attacks because it's nearly impossible to learn/practice any other attack, due to the speed of the bombers.
(I can't COUNT the number of times I've told somebody "don't sit on his tail, he'll shoot you down, man!" and seen them go *pop* moments later after they ignored me)
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Get in front of them and fly straight at their nose and empty your guns into the bombers cockpit.
Not advisable if it is a B26. A lot of fighter jocks forget that the B26 has forward guns (not nose gunner). I have at least 3 kills because of the "head-on" approach on a 26. Usually at 600-800 I can pull the nose up and let'em have it.
Coming from the perspective of a bomber pilot/gunner (me) I can tell right off the bat the experience level of the con by his/her engagement tactics.
The enemy needs to know the bombers capabilities and their firing patterns. When flying 24's or 17's and I get attacked from 11 or 1 o'clock high positions, I know I have a seasoned fighter on my hands. He is using his/her advantage of the fact that I can only train a few guns that way. Usually 9 out of 10 attacks are on my 6 and low. Bad news really. At 1000 or less I can direct several guns in that direction including waist guns by using the N key. Normally, that type of tactic they can score one bomber....maybe even 2. This goes for the less seasoned fighters. I have been on many sorties where I'll lose all 3 because of the frontal/high attacks. B26's have no belly gun. Good fighters will attack from below where there is less for the bomber/gunner to shoot at.
Another fighter that bombers really hate are the Me262/163. Their cannons make scrap metal at a fast rate. Because of their speed, tracking the target on the bomber can be difficult...even if the attack on the bombers 6. However, I did manage to shoot down a 163 because he was directly behind me, but that doesn't happen often enough. Of course more than 1 bandit is bad for the bomber/gunner, especially if they coordinate frontal and back attacks at the same time. If that is the case....you can kiss your mission goodbye.
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Originally posted by Krusty
IMO most pilots only do dead6 attacks because it's nearly impossible to learn/practice any other attack, due to the speed of the bombers.
*sigh*... while I do understand were you are coming from, I really don't understand why you allow yourself to get carried away to absolute BS (excusez-moi) statements like this. It's at least grossly exaggerating...
A B17 does about 248mph at 5k. Allmost all fighters fly at least 100-150mph faster at that alt. And many fighters do have a huge altitude advantage at that point to start with.
And considering the number of buffs flying below 15K, there are countless opportunities to practice every possible attack variant. "They are too fast" is a lame and in 99% of all cases utterly wrong excuse.
I learned my "don't attack from 6" lesson in my first week, and was able to practice slashing attacks from that moment without problems...
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I'd take a 110 to intercept...Big guns, and those rockets are pretty nice...
I would not go from the six...but come in from his side (Aiming at his waist gunner)
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I just had a classic shootout from B-17s against a few F-4Us. The first guy did well. He was just sitting over an airbase flying circles very high and he saw my bombers heading to a refinery. I tried making the bomb run but he came on. He attacked my drones first and since I was so busy trying to lay my bombs down he got the both of them. But he was also slashing very well. What happened is he saw a lone 17 and figured it was easy pickins so he came in stupid and I just shot him to pieces.
I turned and made the run on the refinery and did some damage. I turned for home when I saw another F-4U. What he did was he stayed left and high trying to herd me into a furball. I stayed away from that and just used my rudder pedals to center him when he would make an actual attack. It was a waiting game and he ended up winning cause he was able to come in high from the sun and I just didn't see him coming. He got the bomber to flame and I was just to far away from anything to put it down. Anyway I appreciated the masterful fighter attack and him. I sure wish someone good would gun for me when I call for one.
So I came back in an AR-234, bombed the refinery again, and on the way out when an F-4U tried to get on my 6 I turned the nose down and hit the RATOS. He actually came close with one spray but that was that. The 234 is the one airplane I actually feel safe putting my head down in the bomb view for a few minutes.
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You may call BS if you like. I say it's all related. Even if most fighters can catch them at 5k, are they in the right place? The right direction? By the time you turn to them you are behind 'em. Even though you CAN catch 'em, it's still a far cry from the slow, lumbering, easy prey that bombers were historically.
Even though you CAN catch 'em at 5k, you're still working twice as hard as any fighters would have historically, to get the same end result.
But, I understand if I'm sounding like a broken record. I'll drop it.
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Originally posted by Lusche
*sigh*... while I do understand were you are coming from, I really don't understand why you allow yourself to get carried away to absolute BS (excusez-moi) statements like this. It's at least grossly exaggerating...
A B17 does about 248mph at 5k. Allmost all fighters fly at least 100-150mph faster at that alt. And many fighters do have a huge altitude advantage at that point to start with.
And considering the number of buffs flying below 15K, there are countless opportunities to practice every possible attack variant. "They are too fast" is a lame and in 99% of all cases utterly wrong excuse.
I learned my "don't attack from 6" lesson in my first week, and was able to practice slashing attacks from that moment without problems...
Lusche is a bad enemy to have coming at you. I'll attest to that. Also , for that matter, as much as I like flying all the bombers I pretty much limit myself to 17s, 26s,KI-67s, and 234s, now. I like the JU but its pretty slow and I dont like the guns. The Lanc is great but its hard to defend as well. I might fly one if the war room is not full and the Lanc is a long, long mission for me.
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Originally posted by Yarbles
Ive tried slowly climbing up from their 6:(
Anyone able to say how its done properly?
that works pretty well....you should come try that against my JU88's:D
honest...their guns aren't dangerous.....:rofl
seriously..........get above em.......slice through their formation, never giving them a good shot.........
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I posted this a while back in answer to the same question. Unfortunately I don not know how to make a link to the other thread- maybe someone could explain how?
This is a long read. Those of you not interested or who have already read it can skip over it...
you both mention getting more effective at killing buffs. With all the dive bombing buffs, cv killers, etc, it's nice to have a sure-fire way to kill them-
IMO, bombers are best attacked from above or below. From the sides is rough, you get some pings, but you're not likely to get a kill in one pass unless you get the cockpit. HO works, but only for one pass, and is dangerous. Dead six is nuts. From the bottom means you are nose up and losing speed. This will normally mean you end up on their six eventually, which as stated is nuts. IMO, most folks attack bombers from the bottom or six. That means buff pilots/gunners get most of their practice here, and are most comfortable shooting here. That's bad from the fighter standpoint.
That leaves attacking from the top as the best choice.
The weakest spots on the bomber are the cockpit and wing roots/engine area. Those are easiest to target and hit from the top. Attacking from the top allows you to go back up- this means you can retain some E, which is good. Another point to consider is that if the gunner has no ability to see the ground as a reference, he is more likely to be at least somewhat disoriented, which will hopefully mess up his ability to lead you correctly. If he is pointing his gun upward, he can't see the ground. Attacking from the top means you have speed, which means he has to lead you a bit more, which he is unlikely to do. In AH, 99.99999999999% of the shots fired miss behind the intended target (IMO). Also, many of the bombers guns cannot point straight up, which means fewer bullets headed your way.
So you need to be above the bombers for best results. I like to be 1.5k-2k above, with sufficient airspeed (250mph for my corsair). Patience may be needed in setting up this position. If you don't have the patience you'll die often, which is fine for some folks. I won't teach you how to get killed by the buffs though...
I start directly above the bombers, and slightly in front. My tail would be slightly in front of the bombers cockpit. I roll inverted, and dive in. I aim for a point in front of the bombers until close, because I want to be attacking from D400-D600, from a point where I can fire downward at about a 45 degree angle in to the cockpit. If my position is off, I fire into the wing root, or a wingtip if I've been drinking. This will allow you to pull out of your dive at about 450mph, right through the formation, or very slightly below. By slightly below, I mean sometimes I lose my vertical stabilizer by scraping it along the bombers belly. If you go below the bombers before nosing back up you are blowing E. If you are beginning to black out at all you are also scrubbing E. Use your throttle and rudder to control your speed. Too fast is bad. Too slow is worse. If you dive at the bombers, or especially at their tail, you will be firing from behind, which will get you killed. Go for the cockpit.
After your pass, one of the bombers will be on fire or dead. You should be headed in the same direction as the bombers, and going back up. Don't go straight back up yet. Angle upward at about a 30-40 degree angle until out of range of the guns, and then go almost vertical. Your goal is to do a loop, with about 150mph airspeed 1.5-2k above the bombers, and be able to dive in exactly as you did before. This means your loop should be in front of the bombers, not overhead, or else you will be diving in on their six for your next attack.
I often time my loop so that a burning bomber will explode before I am close enough to fire on my second pass. This leaves the formation even more helpless.
It is somewhat important to target the correct buff in the formation. Don't start with the lead bomber. He's the one actually aiming at you, and will be the most accurate. The drones are aimed based off of him, and are really only converging at the same aiming point for a brief moment in your pass. Targeting a drone is safest. Also, if the buffs are driven by a new player, he may not bail out, which gives you the warping drones thing until he hits the ground. Targeting a drone first and second eliminates that. Save the lead bomber for last.
Targeting the right drone first is best. If you target the left drone first, when he dies the right drone will move into his position which makes for a more difficult pass on a moving target. So the order is- right drone, left drone, lead bomber.
A few fine points-
You may need to adjust the top of your loop so that you don't end up on the bombers six for your third pass. You will be losing E, and getting slower. If you do a loop, you may end up behind the bomber on the third pass. If so, you may need to roll 90-180 degrees on the way up after your second pass. This makes it more of a giant barrel roll or other maneuver than an actual loop.
Also, often on the way down in my dive, since I'm diving for a point in front of the bombers, I can't see them due to my cowling. I roll a little left/right, or in effect do a slow spiral on my dive to keep tabs of my target. I just make sure that my flight attitude is where it should be when I'm ready to fire. This is also how peregrine falcons maneuver in their stoops ( also due to vision concerns).
That rolling dive is also important when dealing with the buff drivers like 999000 and Tatertot. If you dive in nice and smooth they will still kill you. The rolling foils most gunners. Timing on preparing for your shot is a little difficult, but you'll get it eventually. An added benefit is that this maneuver will give you speed-control options. It is better to need to slow down a bit than to be too slow.
The way for bomber pilots to counter this move is to fly directly below the cloud layer. This is the safest place to be, as it limits the ability of the fighter pilot to see them. It is very hard to pull off the diving spiral against those bombers. Killing the low bombers is a piece of cake though.
I'm not really one for stating my accomplishments, but I will here as it shows the effectiveness of this bomber-killing method. A few months ago Saber and I checked our stats in detail to see where we were having the most difficulty (which planes killed us the most). This check showed that for that month I had a 98/1 K/D against bombers. The one bomber that killed me was a C47 ( I rammed him, lol). This is a very effective tactic once learned.
MtnMan
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Strange how so many fly into the rear gun. I was once jumped by an ME who slashed and I was almost helpless against him. The really good sticks seem to adjust tactics by the bomber they are attacking.
Another thing I see guys do is to line up the bombers center and just pour it on. Well those 50s can reach out a long ways and a B-17 is pretty tough. I took out a 110 at almost 1,000 K cause he was creeping in to use his cannons thinking I'd never hit him from that distance but thats what happens when you creep in and the gunner can spray a few rounds at you to range you and then opens up with 3 planes worth of 50s. With zoom we can see the rounds hit you from that far and then we open up.
I rely on sneak tactics as my main defense anyways and try to limit my exposure to radar and enemy. The way I see it if I can take out a target and never see a bogey then its a success. I'll take an hour and 1/2 to get Lancs up, do an end around, and take out a refinery from 25,000'.
agreed.......did you ever try to combine that with throtleing back as they get close? you should see em try to adjust as they're suddenly closing hard, and in your range......helllllll..i've even had a few ram me as they were comming at me hard, and as i was shooting, i chopped throttle all the way to idle.......amazing how fast the buffs bleed off speed:rofl
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That post brought up a few questions on specifics, and how to do it in different planes. As Krusty alluded to it is much more difficult in the slower fighters.
...the pony isn't that far off from the corsair. This maneuver will work fine for it, as well as almost any plane in AH. Some planes will need to make adjustments though. The corsair still handles great at high speed, where some planes don't (the pony does too). Planes like the N1k, KI-84, ACM5, and most of the Spitfires will have serious issues at the speeds I commonly approach bombers at. Their aileron and elevator authority diminish at high speeds, making it tough to maneuver. They will have trouble getting their nose on target, and if they do, they will be pretty dang likely to ram into the back of the bomber. If they survive that, they will likely be way under the bomber group after their pass, and be scrubbing E like mad trying to pull out before they meet the ground.
That said, this maneuver will work for them too. They just need to adjust their speed and rate of closure. I'm guessing that that is what you need to do as well. You may need to chop throttle way down in your dive. I generally do. But as I level and go back up, I'm WEP'ed and trying to quickly get out of the gun range of the bomber, and also to maximize my zoom-climb. Planes that need to fly slower due to handling problems will need to make a smaller loop to avoid over speed on the dive. This may mean they need to dodge some bullets, and will likely mean that instead of the loop it will be more of a large barrel roll at the top. If they try this maneuver without those modifications at lower speed, they will end up attacking the bombers from the rear.
Those moves are also what you will need to think about when you end up in this maneuver at some point with too little speed.
If you come into this move with speed, you're really kind of killing time at the top of the maneuver waiting for the bombers to fly back into the sweet spot under you so you can dive back in. It may be that you don't recognize where that sweet spot is yet, and what it looks like. This is a lot harder to do on a drone that is flying in a constant turn, than the normal MA bomber who flies straight.
This time at the top of the loop is where I scan for enemy fighters before committing to another pass, and avoid putting myself at a positional disadvantage while flying a predictable path. Lack of SA will get you killed even if you have this or any other maneuver mastered.
The drone’s offline also fly slower than normal, which will give you some timing issues. Offline, your approach will be too fast, and online you will have adjusted to the slower offline bombers (that don't shoot at you), causing you to be behind in your timing and placing you about 400 yds behind the bombers (who are shooting at you). The offline drones are great for the raw basics, but lose their value after that. Learn to fly loops, rolls, chandelles, and anything else you can around them, without EVER losing track of where they are. They are also helpful for deflection shooting practice.
Keeping track of your target, maneuvering into killing position, and the timing that goes into it are the hard parts. Practice online is IMO the only way to master it. You can do it in the DA or TA if you can find someone willing, or else try it in the MA, where there are more people. In the mA, friendly bombers as targets work just fine. They are easy to find, don't shoot you down, and will probably be overjoyed to have a friendly fighter loitering near them. Obviously you can't shoot them though. You can try this maneuver repeatedly on them with no consequences for screwing up. If speed isn't your issue, this will fix your timing/maneuvering/target tracking problems.
That is probably the best way to practice, and can be done while still playing the game. Spending a long time finding enemy bombers, then getting killed by them executing a less-than-perfect maneuver, or getting killed by the fighter you didn't see, or having the bombers killed by a friendly with more experience while you are setting up a pass can be discouraging. It doesn't make for an ideal training environment.
Getting used to the .50's can be tough at first. They are as effective as chainsaws when mastered, but as effective as marshmallows before that.
Just so I don't get any buff pilots riled for getting them killed-
Another defense to this move is to adjust your heading while the fighter is getting into position, or while he is going back up. A 30 degree or so turn left or right will screw him up if he's not watching you as he climbs. It puts the fighter out of position, and if he isn't careful or willing to adjust his position, his next attack will be from your six. Anything the bomber pilot does to cause the fighter pilot to take too long between passes or effectively lose his speed/alt advantage works to help the bombers.
Another very effective counter, especially if coupled to the previously mentioned tactic, is to set your auto-climb/auto-speed speed to about 300mph. This will put you into a shallow dive, but will limit your speed so you don't shed your wings. Get in the guns, and use rudder to make those course adjustments. Get ready for some shooting! This speed change and turning will force the fighter behind you, rather than above you. Don't turn too hard; try to keep your drones in formation. They are vulnerable if they stray.
This tactic doesn't work so well if the bombers are on the deck. They need the safety of several thousand feet.
So what do you do if you're the fighter and the bombers counter you like this? I'd think about looking for a different set of buffs, or be ready to lift a shiny new fighter. Or get ready for one heck of a good, fun fight! It's much more fun and satisfying to fight and beat an opponent who uses his head! Even when you lose it develops a sense of respect for other players, which is always good.
MtnMan
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Originally posted by Krusty
But, bomber pilots in this game don't fly anything but full throttle.
Sorry, wrong.
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Mtnmann,
Got any films of buff kills?
Gooss
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Originally posted by blkmgc
Sorry, wrong.
Full throttle minus 1/20th of the throttle so your wingmen in a 20-bomber mission can form up is still full throttle.
Unless you're telling me you fly at "normal power" or (*gasp*) even "max cruise" (<-- historic speed of buffs)????
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Yarbles
Ive tried slowly climbing up from their 6:(
Anyone able to say how its done properly?
Some good advice given.
*Cannon birds are best bet against buffs, and they can soak up a lot of small caliber rounds unless you are accurate enough to set engines aflame.
* Patience. Get above them first, then get up to speed. Slashing attacks from front corners and maneuver a bit on egress to throw off their aim. Consider the plane you are attacking to pick entry and exits to avoid as many guns as you can. moving from a high to low point forces gunner to switch stations and reacquire your plane to keep firing at you. Don't come straight in on the bomber, you just become a closing target in his site. You want a little sideways maneuvering, then turn to attack when in gun range.
* A cockpit kill will take out a plane. An engine on fire gives you time to extend, climb, and get back up to speed while it goes boom.... them make another run. Wing spars are another target for easier kills, and I've seen some take off the tail.
*Better to catch them on the way in. Once a buff has dropped it's whole load or ord, there is the chance he will bail, suicide bomb, or other non-historical flight path. He don't need the bomber perkies and he may want to get in the air fast, rather than spend 30 minutes back to base with you nipping at his heels.
Some of us buff drivers don't run at full speed --- I tend to run at 80% power when on a run, starting 25 miles out, but when I run buffs against strats on fields, I'd do it from 25K or more --- the lower speed settings translates into high accuracy from high altitude in LW arena. Fighters coming from my dead or low six would overshoot me or run into me at times as they came in with all they had. A low six target is just an easy mark for a buff gunner.
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The other problem is the evasives Buffs take in the game that they wouldn't do historically while in the box. You wouldn't see an entire formation in a diving turn to build up airspeed and prevent fighters from getting into a good attack position like you do in here. :p
IMO HTC needs to tighten up the leash on drones to cut that nonsense out.
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Mtnmann,
Got any films of buff kills?
Gooss
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Originally posted by Krusty
Full throttle minus 1/20th of the throttle so your wingmen in a 20-bomber mission can form up is still full throttle.
Unless you're telling me you fly at "normal power" or (*gasp*) even "max cruise" (<-- historic speed of buffs)????
:rolleyes:
You've never flown with us...so in esscence, you have no clue.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Full throttle minus 1/20th of the throttle so your wingmen in a 20-bomber mission can form up is still full throttle.
Unless you're telling me you fly at "normal power" or (*gasp*) even "max cruise" (<-- historic speed of buffs)????
:rolleyes:
I will go full out up to my target alt, and then chop back a bit as it helps with getting lined up and such. But in a sense I see why alot of people go full out because in here it is more of a time restriction and with hangers down for 15 minutes instead of weeks like in real life you need to go wide open... just my .02 cents....
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If your buff driving at hi alt above speed, you'll be off on your targeting.
Nice try Krusty, you LW swine.:D
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Originally posted by Krusty
You may call BS if you like....
BS. Slow, lumbering, easy prey bombers is not an indication of historic speed. The heavily gunned bombers (US and British) were historicaly intercepted by 109s and 190s that have the speed to overtake a full throttle bomber. Huri vs. B17 is not historicly relivant.
On topic...
From the bomber gunners prospective, direct 6 attacks are the easiest shots to make. Shots from the waist guns require large leads and are more difficult. Top and belly gunners have a good 360 degree view and can track enemy from front to back. Nose gunner had high closure rates.
From the attacker, 6 shots are the easiest, shots fromt he side require a larger lead, and front attack had high closer rates and risk of collision.
As an attacker, I prefer to get high in front of the bombers and make attacks from an angle top to bottom. This make your shot harder, but better chance of surviving the bomber guns. The high to low attack, or low to hight attack makes it hard for the bomber gunners to track from the upper or lower turrets. This may take several passes to make a kill.
To try to make a quick kill, if you concentrate fire into the cockpit works good, or concentrate fire to take off a wing tip will bring them down fast.
Most important, take your time to get in position, then decide how you want to attack.
Gunner
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Wingroots are my favorite target on a B-24. One good gun pass and you have a comet.
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Mtnmann,
Got any films of buff kills?
Gooss
I'm not sure, I don't film on a regular basis, and go through my films even more rarely. I can look, or maybe I'll simply fim a few on my next trip to the MA.
I have nowhere to host them though, so would need a volunteer or a link to a free host.
Or I could just email them to you (I still have your email address).
MtnMan
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i regularly kill buffs in my d-stang and even the bravo stang, i set up high above the buffs about 1.5-2k above them roll in and focuse my short bursts into the wingroot its almost a guarentted barbeque and you almost never waste all the much ammo just climb back up rinse repeat. but for some reason when im flying the a8 i always park behind the bomber for fun lol, but my slash attack is the same in most of the e fighters
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The way for bomber pilots to counter this move is to fly directly below the cloud layer. This is the safest place to be, as it limits the ability of the fighter pilot to see them. It is very hard to pull off the diving spiral against those bombers. Killing the low bombers is a piece of cake though.
Exactly. And that's where you will often find me with Buffs. Right under the cloud layer. As I get better at driving and gunning Im going to start popping in ,over, and under, the clouds when attacked. I just wish I could map my elevators so they would work from the gunners positions.
I repeat, me best defense is to never let the enemy know Im even there. That means staying away from radars and staying high. I might take 26s into a target at 10,000' , or 67s, but for everything else its 15,000' or more. I wish I could get with the experienced Buff sticks but the timing has just been wrong. There's a excellent crew that has invited me. Mostly Ive been strat bombing with 250 or 500lb's so pinpoint accuracy isn't essential.
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Hope I didnt put you off attacking Buffs the other day Yarbles.
Spits aren't the best buff killers and especially against B26's.
The first time you came at me was pretty silly I slowed up a touch and held fire until you were in my honey trap. Many buff pilots start shooting their ammo off like madmen soon as you get near, I don't.
Sometimes by not shooting the fighter pilot gets false hope thinking that he hasnt been seen. I've done this before my self.
The second time I was playing with you I kept turning to try and get you to succumb to another rear six shot but you didnt buy it.
If I know the bomber guy isnt a noob you have to wait it out and grab, the more energy you have to play with the better. It looked like you were trying to do this but you got within 800 on my waist gunner and I thought what the hell i'll let him have it. That one was a peach of a shot if i do say so myself.
Best tips vary between what type of bombers you are attacking. More E the better. Over the top, slashing attacks, belly shots or front quarter are usually a start.
Good luck with it.
Bruv
~S~
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Originally posted by GunnerCAF
BS. Slow, lumbering, easy prey bombers is not an indication of historic speed. The heavily gunned bombers (US and British) were historicaly intercepted by 109s and 190s that have the speed to overtake a full throttle bomber. Huri vs. B17 is not historicly relivant.
Just FYI, Hurricane is the extreme example. It won't even catch bombers, period. Even when flying 109s and 190As, you can still only barely catch bombers. Where historical closure rates were 200+mph, in this game they are down to as low as 30mph in some cases, depending on the alt. 30mph is what we call "sitting duck" in this game.
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Well I just got shot down again. I dont mind cause I learned something from it, and, I did get one fighter as payback. As well as made the 38 that got me smoke. What happened is I attacked the same "refinery from Hell"thats been giving me problems. The problem is there is a major AB near it thats over 5k in elevation. I didn't even know a fighter was on me until I heard him while looking in my bomb site. He got me 2 drones before I smoked him from a single 17. I have found a lot of fighter pilots do stupid things when going after a loner, just because they figure they can get away with it when 3 Buffs aren't shooting at them. Ive smoked 1/2 dozen from a single Buff.
While OB a single 38 came in. He was good, I was good, he won tho I did get hits in and took out 1 engine. I can do a lot more with rudder pedals now that I bought some. Changing speeds, directions, is very effective against speed diving fighters like the 38 and 51. When you make them adjust their attack angles they can over compensate and get greedy wanting to end it in one pass. Frankly I blew this 38 attack cause I had him, but to him anyways. Yeah it was a long morning flight, with not much coming out of it except learning even more.
I dont believe in wasting ammo but at the same time you cant bring the bullets with you when you die. If I have someone in my sights and can make the shot I lean on "fire all".
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I fly the P38 almost exclusively. This attack pattern works for me against bombers.
First off I get above and ahead of them. I learned a logn time ago not to try a tail chase, unless the tail gun is out of amo, or destroyed. The only time I attack from behind is if I have a significant hight advantage and a partner coming from a different direction who already has the gunners attention.
Anyway, I start on a line above and ahead of the bombers, off to one side or the other at an angle. I dive towards the bomber once I see the tracers i quickly dive under the bomber's top bottom line, then come up at them from underneath, going for the wing root. Then zoom back up once I've cleared the buff. I prefer to pull up before getting to the bomber, then barrel roll over the top of it.
The quick drop and under movement before my shot usually throws off the gunner. A top gunner will lose you as you drop below the bomber, a ball gunner won't even see you until it's too late. The door gunners also won't have time to react.
Since the bomber is takign hits with you below the gunners eye, he'll often switch to the ball turret from the top one, in the hopes of catching you as you go by. But as I said, I'm pulling up before crossing the bomber so that I'm back on top again.
Biggest threat to me is the nose gunner who can track me for most of the run. The closer rate though usually works in my favor as I am a smaller target.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Just FYI, Hurricane is the extreme example. It won't even catch bombers, period. Even when flying 109s and 190As, you can still only barely catch bombers. Where historical closure rates were 200+mph, in this game they are down to as low as 30mph in some cases, depending on the alt. 30mph is what we call "sitting duck" in this game.
Your not going to have blazing speed as your climbing. That is the mistake many make. Once you are level above the bombers, it's an energy thing. Turn your altitude into speed, attack, convert your speed to altitide as you are positioning for another attack. Your closure rate is dependent on how much energy you have to convert.
Gunner
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Yeah I just had someone in a Yak make a mistake in not adjusting to the bomber he was coming against. I had a KI-67 flight OB from a good run at 10,000'. The Yak pilot probably just thought "bombers" and he came in my rear. He gave up to much energy by diving in my rear to quickly and he hung up at 600 k off my tail and tried to outgun 3 bombers and got smoked.
Now when I see a fighter just hanging up there, where'as I can just see his wheels turning on how to make a successful attack, I know I have a problem. Its the thinkers, the patient ones, that scare me. As long as you have gas time is on your side. Unless were flying in a large formation with escorts theres no-one in this game going to come to help a bomber. Unless maybe your flying into a furball, but I avoid those like the plague.
Little did that Yak pilot know but my rudder pedals weren't even working and I couldnt have turned those aircraft, while gunning, even if I wanted to. I think he underestimated the KI-67 as well, which is suicidal. At 10,000' or more its a very dangerous bomber to come into. In some ways worse then the B-17 cause of its speed, its turn and climb, and its top cannon that can snipe at you if your high and left/right. With this bomber you have to be patient, get altitude on it, and come screaming down. If you try a below attack your going to hang up on the 6 cause of its speed.
The ones that rush, are in a hurry, hang up in the 6, try to do to much in one pass, are the ones that get clobbered. Don't forget we want to ace you as quickly as we can so we can either make our run, or get home, and collect our 10 points.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Exactly. And that's where you will often find me with Buffs. Right under the cloud layer. As I get better at driving and gunning Im going to start popping in ,over, and under, the clouds when attacked. I just wish I could map my elevators so they would work from the gunners positions.
I repeat, me best defense is to never let the enemy know Im even there. That means staying away from radars and staying high. I might take 26s into a target at 10,000' , or 67s, but for everything else its 15,000' or more. I wish I could get with the experienced Buff sticks but the timing has just been wrong. There's a excellent crew that has invited me. Mostly Ive been strat bombing with 250 or 500lb's so pinpoint accuracy isn't essential.
i see so many buff drivers fly through so many dar rings, i thought i was the only one that went around them. i agree with this, as, like i've said before, when bombing, it's all about surviving the mission..if it takes an extra 1/2 hour......then it's worth it.
a decent...and somewhat entertaining way to practice your precision rich.......find a base where there might be a furball nearby.....obviously stay high....set your salvo to 1, and line up on runway heading(i like the ju88's for this as they carry 20 50kg eggs), and de-ack the field. it's soooo much fun to watch the ack huggers that keep trying to lure your countrymen into the ack, do that, and then find they're not safe there either:D . i generally am calibrating about 10 miles before i hit the dar ring though........try it..it's fun.
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john
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Originally posted by Bruv119
Hope I didnt put you off attacking Buffs the other day Yarbles.
Spits aren't the best buff killers and especially against B26's.
1)although i'll get flamed for this....i find the 38 fairly nice for this......nose mounted guns, point n click. but i also try to stay VERY fast so as to not let you hit that big butted bird :-D
as for spits....i've had limited success with the 16, and the 9..nine isn't very potent though as cannons are low load, then it looks like i'm throwing spitballs at the buffs.
The first time you came at me was pretty silly I slowed up a touch and held fire until you were in my honey trap. Many buff pilots start shooting their ammo off like madmen soon as you get near, I don't.
2)i do this too........and the funny thing is that most fighter pilots don't seem to notice that they're suddenly closing on you FAST now.....i've had a guy ram me because of this.....i also had a guy that i guess was going for the VERY quick kill......at 150 or so, he still hadn't fired.......and i couldn't make myself not shoot anymore......at that distance, one quick burst, and he lost a bunch of really important pieces.:rofl
Sometimes by not shooting the fighter pilot gets false hope thinking that he hasnt been seen. I've done this before my self.
3)agreed.......
The second time I was playing with you I kept turning to try and get you to succumb to another rear six shot but you didnt buy it.
4)i generally only see ju88 drivers do this......others seem to rely on speed, or the massive firepower
If I know the bomber guy isnt a noob you have to wait it out and grab, the more energy you have to play with the better. It looked like you were trying to do this but you got within 800 on my waist gunner and I thought what the hell i'll let him have it. That one was a peach of a shot if i do say so myself.
Best tips vary between what type of bombers you are attacking. More E the better. Over the top, slashing attacks, belly shots or front quarter are usually a start.
5)the slashing attacks seem to kill me the most regardless of what i'm flying(when bombing that is)
Good luck with it.
Bruv
~S~
:rofl
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Rgr on the ack. I'll try that sometime. The real reason i avoid furballs and radar is because my interest in this game is to play it in historical context. I just had a real good day flying because I mostly avoided fighters, ack, radar, furballs, and utilized sound tactics just like a commander would have in 1944.
Simply put I got my bombs on target and made it home with all the bombers today, "while avoiding Lusche like tha plague.
Ive had a lot of technical issues with my stick and puter that have been a real pain in the rear. I'm using a HDTV as my monitor and the best video setting is one that reduces my game screen size and cuts out about 30% of my bombsight. I'm just trying to workaround the issues with sound tactics and learning from the more experienced sticks.
I appreciate the advice Cap. I too enjoy the JU-88.
Originally posted by CAP1
i see so many buff drivers fly through so many dar rings, i thought i was the only one that went around them. i agree with this, as, like i've said before, when bombing, it's all about surviving the mission..if it takes an extra 1/2 hour......then it's worth it.
a decent...and somewhat entertaining way to practice your precision rich.......find a base where there might be a furball nearby.....obviously stay high....set your salvo to 1, and line up on runway heading(i like the ju88's for this as they carry 20 50kg eggs), and de-ack the field. it's soooo much fun to watch the ack huggers that keep trying to lure your countrymen into the ack, do that, and then find they're not safe there either:D . i generally am calibrating about 10 miles before i hit the dar ring though........try it..it's fun.
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john
;) ;)
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I have found the P-38 to be a bit of a problem. The only real way to defend against it is to outsmart him, or at least try to. The thing booms down on you like a monster in the hands of a good stick and Ive found constant turning and speed changes necessary to throw him off his groove and hopefully get him greedy and hang up, or over shoot. You cant fly straight against a 38 stick that knows what hes doing. I pretty much defend against it like I do a 110, tho I think the 38 is a little more dangerous. I just want to keep it away from me and I wont spare the ammo doing so. If I see my first trigger landing shots at LR I will lay in on the dbl trigger for sure.
There is one very dangerous tactic none of the fighter sticks have mentioned yet. I wont mention it, its all about patience, but its a real killer for someone with an hour free. Thanks to all for a great talk.
Originally posted by Damionte
I fly the P38 almost exclusively. This attack pattern works for me against bombers.
First off I get above and ahead of them. I learned a logn time ago not to try a tail chase, unless the tail gun is out of amo, or destroyed. The only time I attack from behind is if I have a significant hight advantage and a partner coming from a different direction who already has the gunners attention.
Anyway, I start on a line above and ahead of the bombers, off to one side or the other at an angle. I dive towards the bomber once I see the tracers i quickly dive under the bomber's top bottom line, then come up at them from underneath, going for the wing root. Then zoom back up once I've cleared the buff. I prefer to pull up before getting to the bomber, then barrel roll over the top of it.
The quick drop and under movement before my shot usually throws off the gunner. A top gunner will lose you as you drop below the bomber, a ball gunner won't even see you until it's too late. The door gunners also won't have time to react.
Since the bomber is takign hits with you below the gunners eye, he'll often switch to the ball turret from the top one, in the hopes of catching you as you go by. But as I said, I'm pulling up before crossing the bomber so that I'm back on top again.
Biggest threat to me is the nose gunner who can track me for most of the run. The closer rate though usually works in my favor as I am a smaller target.
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See Rule #10
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if you guys wanna know how to kill buffs, talk to fugitive........the dude has on two occasions taken my b24's down with such ease it is frightening.
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What MtnMan and Snail said. I killed 9 of 12 bombers in a raid with a Pony the other night, then upped and killed the other two left (nag got one of them) basically following that technique. The pony isn't normally considered a bomber killer but it can do quite well. Admittedly their gunnery was lacking and I'll probably never succeed in that again :).
The biggest thing it PATIENCE. You have to set up for bombers, not climb slowly up their 6 and wait to get shot. Get above and dive and slash down, firing accurately for the wingroots or cockpit. When you pull up, pull up forward of their flight path so you don't fall behind and have to make a 6 pass.
The one caveat is if the bombers are above 25k. Then it gets very hard, even if you have good technique. Your speed and climb advantage are not as great.
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Ahem.... Look at the dates. Bad epic! Bad!