Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Red Tail 444 on August 14, 2007, 10:37:33 AM
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What do the gun experts think about this weapon? I'm neutral, since I prefer rifles to shotguns.
Military Police Systems recently unveiled a must-have weapon in the current
CQB environment. The company out of Piney Flats, Tennessee has come out
with a unique selectable (via a unique trigger) 12-gauge shotgun called the
Auto Assault 12 Automatic Shotgun or AA-12 Automatic Shotgun. The AA name
originally stood for "Atchisson Assault" after the original inventor, but
has been changed since Military Police Systems purchased the rights to the
unique weapon.
The weapon utilizes a constant recoil system that reduces recoil by 90% as
compared to a traditional 12 gauge shotgun. The reduction in recoil is the
primary reason that this shotgun can be fired effectively in the automatic
mode. With little or no barrel rise, this weapon is a monster when clearing
rooms! The weapon will definitely become a force multiplier with its ease
of operation and massive firepower in both the law enforcement and military
arenas.
Technical Data -
* Caliber - 12 Gauge (2 3/4" Shells)
* Rate of Fire - 300 Rounds per minute/fires a 20 round drum in about 4
seconds
* Operations - Long Stroke Gas Piston with constant recoil
* Length - 33 Inches with 13 Inch Barrel (same size as an M4 with stock
Extended). 38 Inches with 18 Inch Barrel
* Weight - 10.0 lbs with 13 Inch Barrel. 10.5 lbs with 18 Inch Barrel
* Feeding Device - 8 round magazine, 20 round drum magazine, 40 round drum
magazine (in development)
* Safety - Thumb Safety
* Sights - Front: Protected Post which is adjustable for Elevation.
Rear: Protected Ring which is adjustable for W/E.
* Stock - Glass filled nylon available in: Urban Grey, Desert Tan, Olive,
Drab, Black, and Various other Camouflage Patterns
* Finish - Matte Stainless Steel
* Made of corrosion resistant, high impact, heat-treated stainless steels
and high-impact plastics
* Low Maintenance - During a Blackwater shoot, 5000 ROUNDS were fired
through a single weapon WITHOUT cleaning or a drop of Lube.
What is Constant Recoil? - When the weapon's gun bolt is cycling a round, a
gas system absorbs most of the shock and energy, about 80% of the total
recoil. The weapon also has a very strong recoil spring that absorbs
another 10% of the recoil. The result is a weapon that cycles efficiently
and effortlessly while transferring 10% of the recoil of a normal 12 gauge
to the shooter! The Video - See this monster in action being fired
with both magazines and the 20 round drum.
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Depending on what/who is on the receiving end, I am either all for it or vehemently against it.
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A shotgun is no more effecting in "clearing a room" than any other firearm is. In many cases it's rather awkward since it's a long arm. At typical room dimension you are not sweeping and area, you are still point shooting with a weapon where the shot pattern is only about 1" across. In other words you still have to aim just as much to get a hit. The shot gun is not a guarantee of a hit and you can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight.
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"clearing a room"?
sounds more like destroying a room.:D
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AA12 firing HE shells (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g77sLmw-UcY)
Here's another demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuArk6zv8-w&mode=related&search=
Pretty mean bastard if you ask me
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Some New York cop who claims to have been in more fire-fights than any other person in the world said that buckshot was unreliable at stopping an opponent. When he used a shotgun, he much preferred to use slugs.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Some New York cop who claims to have been in more fire-fights than any other person in the world said that buckshot was unreliable at stopping an opponent. When he used a shotgun, he much preferred to use slugs.
I bet there are some living WWII vets that would(or at least could) beg to differ with that cop's self-appraisal.
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I know A Vietnam vet who would disagree with the NYC cop.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Some New York cop who claims to have been in more fire-fights than any other person in the world said that buckshot was unreliable at stopping an opponent. When he used a shotgun, he much preferred to use slugs.
define "unreliable"
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drooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ol!
I want it!
Unreliable means he's probably full of crap. I've seen buckshot go through plenty of things.
I've thankfully never been fired at in anger, but anyone who claims to have been in more firefights than any one else in the world is probably smoking their own seizures.
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Unless I'm mistaken (I don't know much about shotgun loads), but isn't buck shot 3 .38 caliber round balls?
While it may seem cool that 90% of the recoil is reduced, don't forget that this also reduces the power of the cartridge.
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Originally posted by Neubob
I bet there are some living WWII vets that would(or at least could) beg to differ with that cop's self-appraisal.
Maybe, but I think this guy has been in about 1500 shoot-outs over his 30 year career. I'm trying to find his name.
This dude said that buckshot didn't reliably drop opponents. Meaning that they would still be conscious and able to fight back even if he shot them first.
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I was always told .33 was the size, I could be wrong.
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From Hornady:
000 BUCKSHOT .350 DIAMETER
00 BUCKSHOT .330 DIAMETER
#1 BUCKSHOT .300 DIAMETER
#2 BUCKSHOT .270 DIAMETER
#3 BUCKSHOT .250 DIAMETER
#4 BUCKSHOT .240 DIAMETER
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Maybe, but I think this guy has been in about 1500 shoot-outs over his 30 year career. I'm trying to find his name.
This dude said that buckshot didn't reliably drop opponents. Meaning that they would still be conscious and able to fight back even if he shot them first.
1500 in 30 years!!!???
That's like 1 a week!
With a track record like that, he must have gone through more partners than Dirty Harry
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
While it may seem cool that 90% of the recoil is reduced, don't forget that this also reduces the power of the cartridge.
The gas bled off doesn't reduce it to a noticable degree. Check muzzle velocities for the same loading out of pump guns vs gas action autoloaders. It's not really significant.
The recoil spring aspect makes no difference whatsoever.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
The company out of Piney Flats, Tennessee
And you say us Tennessee boys can't do nothin.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Some New York cop who claims to have been in more fire-fights than any other person in the world said that buckshot was unreliable at stopping an opponent. When he used a shotgun, he much preferred to use slugs.
ask the box of truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
I tend to think if aimed correctly buckshot does fine. I dont agree with the new yorker.
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How does a gas piston system work on a shotgun?
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Maybe, but I think this guy has been in about 1500 shoot-outs over his 30 year career. I'm trying to find his name.
This dude said that buckshot didn't reliably drop opponents. Meaning that they would still be conscious and able to fight back even if he shot them first.
The guy is full of ****.
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Which guy, the one the claim is about or the one posting a claim about it?
:huh
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
How does a gas piston system work on a shotgun?
There is usually one or two very small holes in the barrel where the ring attaches to the magazine tube. After the wad passes the hole, a very small amount of gas is bled off that operates the piston/rod to cycle the action.
Or, in short from Chuck Hawks, a gas operated autoloader bleeds off a small portion of the expanding gas created by the burning gunpowder when the rifle is fired. This gas flows into a cylinder, where it forces a piston to move the operating rod that works the action.
Again, velocity difference is negligible.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Which guy, the one the claim is about or the one posting a claim about it?
:huh
Good question. :confused:
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What Toad said is spot on. The gas used to cycle does very very very little to the power of whatever you're shooting be it a slug or bird/buck shot.
I'd like to find a nice Belgian Browning Auto-5. My uncle has one but unfortunately for me he's in good health and won't part with it until he dies ;) I'd use it over my 11-87 autoloader any day of the week and twice on sunday. It shoots very well and the time to fire an accurate second shot is shorter than using a recoil shotgun like the Remington with the gas system to help cycle the action. I've been lucky enough to take 2 deer with it and will be standing by with a shovel just in case he decides to be buried with it.
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Yeah the load should be mostly accelerated by the time the wad passes the gas port anyway.
Could be this cop doesn't have very good aim. A winging shot could definitely leave someone combat effective.
Could he be talking about birdshot? I could see that.
Place your rounds center mass and you won't have those problems, even with smaller rounds. Even a well placed .22 will kill or disable, but with something that small it is of course all about placement.
A weapons test, purely for the hell of it, yesterday showed that 9mm Luger FMJ does NOT penetrate a keg shell from about 10-15 yards unless it strikes a seem or a previous impact. I've got some totally flat and polished cores to prove it. Bird, buck and slugs all have no problem whatsoever. 2 SKS's, needless to say, turned it into a colander. The birdshot had about a 1.5-2 inch spread and forced its way through the front, but not the back, because of its focused energy.
I can say that I've seen buckshot blow clean holes through a solid belt buckle before too. I could see maybe 3 count having a couple pellets miss for some reason (bad aim) and only one not hitting critically.
My friend is looking to buy an auto-shottie. We don't really have any experience with them. What would you guys recommend?
Also, we noticed that we only find them in 4+1. Is this a legal thing? Do the mag tubes incorporate the gas piston or could they potentially be swapped with a standard pump tube?
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(http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/large/m2TacticalPGSynthetic12Ga.jpg)
A friend of mine has a Benelli auto like this one. I thought his held 7 rounds but I will have to check. Maybe he has a mag extension. I know it will empt the mag before the first empty hits the ground. Im pretty sure its not a cheap shotgun though.:)
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Man that pic is huge:O
sorry
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Some New York cop who claims to have been in more fire-fights than any other person in the world said that buckshot was unreliable at stopping an opponent. When he used a shotgun, he much preferred to use slugs.
HMMMM I think that cop meant he saw more gunfights on TV than anyone in the world while sitting at the donut shop:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Clearing a room? Use a grenade :D
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The weapon choice is not that big of deal in the long run in a close encounter. The person holding the gun, their training and nerve under fire will make it or break it.
The NY cop also didn`t state how many brewskies he had a week to go along with his bar tales.
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
My friend is looking to buy an auto-shottie. We don't really have any experience with them. What would you guys recommend?
Also, we noticed that we only find them in 4+1. Is this a legal thing? Do the mag tubes incorporate the gas piston or could they potentially be swapped with a standard pump tube?
If this is strictly a home defense gun, I'd personally go with a pump. Almost total reliability in any situation and magazine extensions out to 8 rounds are easily available. Lots of good choices at relatively low prices.
If it will be used for home defense and hunting and/or he just want's a semi-auto then I'd say stock fit is the key for hunting enjoyment. Most of todays quality autoloaders are pretty reliable and I'd say about equally so. Benelli, Berretta, Winchester, Remington, Browning and Mossberg all have good guns in this class. Get the one where the stock fits[/]. For hunting, that's more important than the name on the barrel.
Price is always a consideration too but that's his call.
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Originally posted by Slash27
A friend of mine has a Benelli auto like this one. I thought his held 7 rounds but I will have to check. Maybe he has a mag extension. I know it will empt the mag before the first empty hits the ground. Im pretty sure its not a cheap shotgun though.:)
Yeah if it has the name Benelli on it it's not going to be cheap. They are suppose to be real nice shotguns though.
I still like my old Mossberg pump. There is nothing like the sound of a round being racked into the chamber on a pump shotgun. Will definetly make the bad guy think twice.
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A friend of mine has a 9-shot automatic shotgun. 3". Saw off the barrel, and you have a killer.
The 9-shot is a home mix, - it was made for 4 or 5. But it fires fast and the recoil is controllable (after all, I fine mine with one hand and it has no reloading cushion effect). So this is no rocket science invention.
To clear a room = flashbang or grenade.
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Doesn't matter what you arm the Federales with, they still won't be able to capture Zorro.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Some New York cop who claims to have been in more fire-fights than any other person in the world said that buckshot was unreliable at stopping an opponent. When he used a shotgun, he much preferred to use slugs.
Just curious. How did you happen to come by this story? Did you hear it from the individual personally or is it a repetition from a person who heard it from another guy who knows a person that saw another person who actually saw a cop and a shot gun on alternating months from his mothers whom when she was having gas from a large pastrami on rye?
1500 gunfights in 30 years = BS
That's more than one a week as has already been pointed out. That is assuming the individual never took more than a week off per year for vacation or sick leave the entire 30 years. It also assumes they never had to spend a week in court from having been in a previous shootout and never got placed on administrative leave for a shootout. His ammo budget must have been huge figuring that he expended 2 to 5 shells per shootout, unless of course he shoots better than Dirty Harry. That's an expenditure of 3000 to 7500 rounds just in combat alone much less going to the range to practice and qualify.
That tends to make it more shootouts than you see on all the CSI shows you must be watching combined.
:huh
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Well, if he spent a lot of time in court then that explains it!
So much gun violence happens in a court room. I'm sure he was just protecting the judge, the jury and the executioners.
Maybe each round he fired counts as one 'shot out'. Spray and pray cop gets in 1500 shots out? I could pull that off in 30 years.
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I purchased my first HK Benelli M1 back in 1990.
I have not missed one dove season in Texas and it spent five years in Mexico. I couldn't even image the round count cycled in this shot gun. For the past 3 years it has been converted to a pig gun running oo buck.
Great shotgun and i would recommend it to anyone that would like to have a family pass down firearm.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Some New York cop who claims to have been in more fire-fights than any other person in the world said that buckshot was unreliable at stopping an opponent. When he used a shotgun, he much preferred to use slugs.
00 buck is one of the most lethal rounds i have ever shot. I shoot pigs for sport and for the grill. A pig is one "tuff" animal and 00 buck will put them down were other calibers will leave you a blood trail and a wounded critter. Their is a reason why Alaska brown beer guides use shot guns with 00 buck as protection.
Hell a slug is more lethal than 00 buck but so is a 500 nitro or a 50 bmg. When the time comes for protection within 50 yrds a shotgun and 00 buck is my best friend.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Just curious. How did you happen to come by this story? Did you hear it from the individual personally or is it a repetition from a person who heard it from another guy who knows a person that saw another person who actually saw a cop and a shot gun on alternating months from his mothers whom when she was having gas from a large pastrami on rye?
1500 gunfights in 30 years = BS
That's more than one a week as has already been pointed out. That is assuming the individual never took more than a week off per year for vacation or sick leave the entire 30 years. It also assumes they never had to spend a week in court from having been in a previous shootout and never got placed on administrative leave for a shootout. His ammo budget must have been huge figuring that he expended 2 to 5 shells per shootout, unless of course he shoots better than Dirty Harry. That's an expenditure of 3000 to 7500 rounds just in combat alone much less going to the range to practice and qualify.
That tends to make it more shootouts than you see on all the CSI shows you must be watching combined.
:huh
I actually read it on *this* board years ago. Everyone seemed to think he was legit. I am not sure if the search feature will let us go back that far. Think it was around 2001 or 2002.
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Unreliable means that cop probably barely meets minimum standards on the range.
I personally carry a Mossburg pump with pistol grip and 18-1/2" barrel with dowel removed. Hold 7 rounds +1. Also carry a XD45.
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I'm still trying to get my mind around how many people this NYC cop must have killed in his 1500 firefights....
I mean I've been involved in, like, 170 firefights max, and already I've got 89 notches on my belt.
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Originally posted by Neubob
I'm still trying to get my mind around how many people this NYC cop must have killed in his 1500 firefights....
I mean I've been involved in, like, 170 firefights max, and already I've got 89 notches on my belt.
Unless you in the milatary IT IS IMPOSSABLE FOR YOU TO BE IN 89 FIRE FIGHTS.
Avg cop is off duty for 2-8 months while fire fight is investagated so go blow that smoke up someone elses skirt
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Originally posted by oldtard
Unless you in the milatary IT IS IMPOSSABLE FOR YOU TO BE IN 89 FIRE FIGHTS.
Avg cop is off duty for 2-8 months while fire fight is investagated so go blow that smoke up someone elses skirt
You know, if he was in the dept. of internal affairs, he might have INVESTIGATED 1500 officer involved firefights.
Other than that, no way, Jose.
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I don't think even NYC has that many Officer involved shooting incidents. It's still BS.
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Originally posted by oldtard
Unless you in the milatary IT IS IMPOSSABLE FOR YOU TO BE IN 89 FIRE FIGHTS.
Avg cop is off duty for 2-8 months while fire fight is investagated so go blow that smoke up someone elses skirt
I was trying to make a joke out of a blatently absurd statement.
Your name serves you well.
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I can't believe no one here remembers the post about this cop. I've tried searching, but I cant find it.
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I understand how gas systems work, I just didn't know they worked with shotguns.
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This shotgun has been mated with a remote control helicopter.
Link here (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1039)
The good folks at NRI have been hard at work to develop a larger, faster, more powerful, and more highly-developed AutoCopter Gunship that takes performance up a big notch. This new unmanned helo is powered by a kerosene-fueled turbine engine and can carry two MPS AA-12 Machine Shotguns, and more electronics (avionics, cameras, sensors, etc.).
Folks, meet the up-weaponized “first draft” prototype NRI Weaponized AutoCopter Explorer helicopter SUAS (Small Unmanned Aircraft System). The photos accompanying this article are exclusive to DefenseReview, so you're seeing and reading about it here, first.
When I asked Mr. Aukamp what he thought of the FRAG-12's best delivery/launching platform, the AA-12 Combat Shotgun, he replied "I love that gun. The gun is well made, and it fires great. Last week, we had a guy here from the Army, and he thought it looked like a great weapon."
Expect to see this platform controlling crowds over major cities soon ;)
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Originally posted by Maverick
A shotgun is no more effecting in "clearing a room" than any other firearm is. In many cases it's rather awkward since it's a long arm. At typical room dimension you are not sweeping and area, you are still point shooting with a weapon where the shot pattern is only about 1" across. In other words you still have to aim just as much to get a hit. The shot gun is not a guarantee of a hit and you can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight.
That is what sawed off shotguns are for?
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Sawed off shotguns are more easily concealed and can be aimed in confined quarters.
Isn't the rule of thumb, that for every yard the pellets of a shotgun travel, they increase in dispersion by 1 inch?
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just think how many good snakes could be made with that monster :D
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Sawed off shotguns are more easily concealed and can be aimed in confined quarters.
Isn't the rule of thumb, that for every yard the pellets of a shotgun travel, they increase in dispersion by 1 inch?
1. Sawed off shotguns are shorter but they are still long arms compared to a pistol and require 2 hands to operate. This makes them less than ideal in real close quarters.
2. It is correct that the pattern spreads about 1" per yard traveled. That means in a typical room of about 10' the pattern would be about 2 inches across. Very easy to miss if not aimed. The pattern does not spread uniformly or only from side to side. It also spreads vertically.
Using a sawed off shotgun, particularly one with the stock severely shortened, means you will be shooting from the hip since you can no longer shoot aiming down the barrel as you would with a full size stock. Shooting from the hip is not as easy as hollywierd makes it look. It's very easy to miss at 21' (7 yards) particularly under stress.