Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Nefarious on August 14, 2007, 08:57:48 PM
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A very fast paced FSO for most it seems, Not so for others.
It seems we had a problem with some squads not making it to target.
Some because they were wiped out before they arrived on target, others for disregarding the CIC's orders.
Either way when this happens it has a definite ripple effect throughout the event. Usually it makes for a bad time in FSO for squads who don't see action. In this case though some Allied Squads heading for the Axis Cruiser Fleet dropped there ordinance and engaged the Axis Attack group headed for the Allied CV. After a huge fight ensued no effort was made to engage the Axis Cruiser to complete the objective assigned by the Allied CIC.
The Ripple Effect came down hardest on the Axis who were guarding the Cruiser Fleet. They failed to see action because the Allied Attack Group failed to follow there orders.
The Scores are very close, unfortunately they seem a little lopsided though, especially since the Allies failed to destroy any of there objectives while the Axis managed to sink a Cruiser and destroy an Allied bomber hangar.
The Allies did however catch the Axis Ki-67s as they made there run, and managed to down 17 of 24. Which pushed them ahead of the Axis by a mere 30 Points. (1 Formation of Ki-67s).
So the FSO team discussed the event by looking over orders and discussing Film of the event, and have decided to deduct 30 points from the Allies score for not attacking the Cruiser Fleet before T+60 or after. The key thing we have to remember here is that you must make an attempt to fulfill your assigned orders. If you ignore the structure and organization that goes into every event then you are not contributing to the FSO community in a positive manner and possibly ruining someones Friday Night.
Final Frame 2 Score:
Allies = 570
Axis = 570
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Good post nef...................
knuckels
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I know what thats like, my first FSO was in the pacific theater and we patrolled for the enemey for 2 hours with out seeing a single enemey con, that was the most board I've ever been playing this game.
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Just be thankful your squadies didn't remember killshooter is off :o
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I thought there was a standard point penalty for not hitting your assigned target in the first 60.
Agree with your post and the affect that it has down the line, but on the other hand only a 30 point penalty does seem alittle light. Granted I have fun either way in the FSO's and look forward to them each time, but something in your post seem to catch me a little off guard.
Seeing this as a case of being wiped out and not making it to target or being held up getting there trying to fight your way through would definitely be subjective and needs consideration. But to completely leave your mission to attack another air force and not even try to get around or deter them to make it to your target is something completely different.
Another thing that threw me off was the thought that the penalty didn't override the point response. The action they took caused a domino effect on the other side. Let me explain....
Leave out the fact that no points were awarded for the targets they should have hit.
Numbers are an example here....
12 ally aircraft left their mission and dropped ords to attack 12 axis aircraft with ords to target. Axis's try to fight through with some keeping their ords to carry out mission and become less able to fight. axis's lose 8 aircraft in the end. Now the 4 aircraft left must now try not only to complete the target assigned task, but are less 8 aircraft/ords to do it with. Also, 4 instead of 12 now have to do so fending against the defense that was set at their target.
Effect: Less ords to hit target, less aircraft to make it through defense yet to encounter, less aircraft to make it through defense with less aircraft to possibly get points shooting down defense aircraft. Also, the 8 aircraft shot down by the first encounter were worth more than the not going to target penalty. And don't forget that the penalty wouldn't have even been that if another squad sent a few to their target to hit it before t+60 as you stated.
I do enjoy flying these scenerios and salute all those that put these things together. But I will admit, my first thought after reading your post was along the lines of "-30 points, if thats all it cost them with what they got in return, they made that up and then some while costing them greater than hitting the target".
No complaint, just my thought after reading your post with a possible flip veiw to look at.
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This was the 1st FSO I've flown in a few years (since AK days)...all in all was a hoot. As a part of the axis "light brigade" I've got to commend TracerX for a great job of improvisation in getting enough of us thru to complete our mission task (my gunner was busy roasting marshmellows and weenies as my "barbekate" trundled on in to target).
I'll be the 1st to admit I'm clueless on the intricacies of scoring an event like this...I agree with Kaz that when the value for breaking orders exceeds the penalty then the scoring system should be revisited.
My thought here is that since the mission was "aborted" that the target value and assigned plane value should be deducted. In effect the allies should have been docked both the assigned target point value and the point value (or some part of) of the tasked planes since they were effectively "destroyed" in the sense they failed to even attempt the assignment.
I'd think a triage system would make sense...since the axis accomplished multiple mission objectives (offensive) and the allies none the axis win. Had niether side accomplished the mission objectives then the allies win on greater attrition. I think it comes down to trading lives and equipment for results. If you get the results then the sacrifice can be rationalized...
Fighting 8 is the ultimate real world example of a "good plan gone bad". Even thought it went fubar with great cost in the end the overall plan worked and the course of the war changed. Here the allied loss was with out benifit and the axis achieved tangible results in both area's....
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Gentleman,
There is more too it than the brief snippet Nef posted. This item was discussed in length before the penalty was applied. I'll leave it at that and trust that you still have some faith in the CMs to not screw it up too badly.
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I was the guy that found those Ki-67's by the way.... C-Hawks came and finished them up.
If you ever see a single con in FSO, it probably me, i have scouting duty alot :D
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One of the reason's the Allies didn't attack the cruiser fleet before T+60 was we couldn't find it before T+60. I was with the group that was with the Allied CiC Gaidin, I believe that this was why the fleet wasn't attacked.
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To the FSO team for all of there hard work and dedication. I flew on the Axis side and we got hit hard but thats how it goes sometimes. I appreciate the fact that you guys are doing this for all of our enjoyments. I don't care what the points say, it fun :aok
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I was flying an SBD that was supposed to attack the CA. I have to say the post from Nef and Kaz make quite a few assumptions.
We did not disregard orders. I made the decision to drop eggs and engage the enemy that was attacking us. We had no idea where the enemy fleet was at that time and when we engaged I felt we stood a better chance to "SURVIVE" the frame if the Zekes that "ENGAGED" us were dead.
I have no problem with the scoring but I do have a problem with the implications made here. You all know as well as I do that there was no way we could make a sucessful attack after being spotted. Also I felt that protecting our CV was more important at that point.
I have participated in many FSO's and Scenerios. The strike forces are usually very small compared to the fighter slots and they almost always end up overwhelmed after being spotted. Atleast this time we stopped an attack and in the process I know my 6 guys had some fun doing it.
The element of surprise is paramount to a small strike force. Once that was lost our mission was a bust. Thats the bottom line.
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The Damned:
3 kills and 3 assists of B5N2's
first kill at 22:25
2 kills of A6M2's
first kill at 22:28
one of which was a squadmate that was engaged with the 880th in F4F's.
S! 880th btw.
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Thanks Virage, back at you guys.
As far as 880 is concerned, we had one guy that saw and attacked the B5N's. I never saw the B5Ns, because my immediate area was full of A6Ms.
We were tasked with sweeping ahead and trying to locate the IJN Fleet. We passed just NE of the USN Cruiser fleet and flew under a large group of Zekes. They were probably escorts and thought we were Fleet Cap and engaged us to protect their charges. They didn't have time to ask us our intentions, and got on with the business of killing as many of us as possible to protect the bombers. We didn't have time to tell them don't bother with us, we were just leaving to look for your fleet.
In fact our Squadron CO instructed us to attempt to push past the Zekes. Once the 20mms started flying, blue pieces of airplane started falling off, we were ordered to skin our drop tanks and defend ourselves. What happened next was one of the biggest most intense furballs I've ever seen in an FSO.
Once it was over we were down to four F4Fs one of which was too damaged to land on a CV so the pilot was ordered to CAP the CA fleet until he absolutly had to land. That left us three we could rearm and re launch.
I don't think it was a case of people purposely ignoring orders. I think it was just missfortune of two large opposing strike groups running into one another near a targeted task group.
I think everybody appreciates all you CMs do, this was just a case of Murphys Law in spades. Not an attempt to ignore the ROE. :)
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Just so I get this right, the rules change as the CM see's fit and the scores will be adjusted as the CM see's fit. Even though he wasn't there during the fight and know what the situation really was.
The Damned ran into the entire IJN air attack on our way to find the IJN fleet. I for one wasn't going to be laden to the hilt with all those Zero's around, so we pickled our bombs and went on the defensive/offensive. Bad us for trying to stay alive. I did go back and rearm, but hit the prop on the deck of the CV on takeoff and my night was over. With that said, its a game, I have to pay to play it, and do not win any prizes for being in first place. Take the 30 points, heck take them all, I don't care. I will do the same thing again if the situation dictates it.
Now to point fingers saying that we disregarded the CIC's orders, that's just complete BS and totally uncalled for.
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My reply was not assuming anything from anyone. It was just a reverse veiw from what was posted by Nef. Whether Nef's post was actual or hypothetical, the response I made was just to show a possible 180 out look.
I wasn't there, and don't know who did what, who went where and for what reason. I was on different orders over a different part of the map. But it does at least show one thing, u are right in MHO that all end results for each frame and each FSO are dependent on who is in charge. I have yet to see anything as a standard, and thats ok but it does make things to be questions since they are so shuffled.
Everything is subjective and there are no bottom lines. That was the intent of my post, to show that things and actions can be looked at in many different ways. I have learned over the past few years that points in the FSO don't mean a whole lot. I always tend to have a good time and do pose questions from time to time based on what is written here or what I personally see while flying.
My apologies if any imposed misdeed or assumption to anyone that any other was doing something unhanded.
to all, and again apologies
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The High B5N attack group had a total of 4 zekes protecting it. Our assigned escort was ranging in front by a good deal and obviously found an opposing force. However the bulk of it slammed right tru the zekes (only 8 or 9 total) and hit us. The simple reality is that the US attack group was un engaged and attacking the B5N's by choice not desperation. This is not ment as a slight or "attack" just a factual observation. The flip side is that the group U attacked managed to fight thru and sink its target despite having run into the "whole allied airforce" and absorbing high losses. I can flat out tell you that none of the SBD's were even in danger while attacking us....Basically we were the charge of the light brigade:).
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so you got orders to divert from your assigned mission to attack the inbound Kate's with your SBD's?
Originally posted by DmdJJ
Just so I get this right, the rules change as the CM see's fit and the scores will be adjusted as the CM see's fit. Even though he wasn't there during the fight and know what the situation really was.
The Damned ran into the entire IJN air attack on our way to find the IJN fleet. I for one wasn't going to be laden to the hilt with all those Zero's around, so we pickled our bombs and went on the defensive/offensive. Bad us for trying to stay alive. I did go back and rearm, but hit the prop on the deck of the CV on takeoff and my night was over. With that said, its a game, I have to pay to play it, and do not win any prizes for being in first place. Take the 30 points, heck take them all, I don't care. I will do the same thing again if the situation dictates it.
Now to point fingers saying that we disregarded the CIC's orders, that's just complete BS and totally uncalled for.
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Yes he did.
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Originally posted by humble
The High B5N attack group had a total of 4 zekes protecting it. Our assigned escort was ranging in front by a good deal and obviously found an opposing force. However the bulk of it slammed right tru the zekes (only 8 or 9 total) and hit us. The simple reality is that the US attack group was un engaged and attacking the B5N's by choice not desperation. This is not ment as a slight or "attack" just a factual observation. The flip side is that the group U attacked managed to fight thru and sink its target despite having run into the "whole allied airforce" and absorbing high losses. I can flat out tell you that none of the SBD's were even in danger while attacking us....Basically we were the charge of the light brigade:).
There were more than four zekes in my part of the sky. A great deal more. I never saw the B5Ns, but I saw plenty of Zekes. You'll never chalk up all the losses on both sides in that small time frame to just four zekes. All you have to do is look at the event logs. There were a lot of aircraft in a small section of the map. This whole incident was intense and confused enough where many of the comabatants never saw what was going on a mile or two away.
For you to claim the SBD's were not in danger when they attacked your B5N's assumes they were not in danger before that instant. Since you were not flying the SBD's you have no idea what they ran into prior to your sighting of them.
Everybody needs to remain calm and not point fingers. Both sides and the CMs tried to do their jobs. What really happened was that the fog of war made it's way into the simulation, adding just that much more realism. :)
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Actually I'm not pointing any fingers...or am saying that the decision was "wrong". I have no idea where the allied CV cap was or if it was in position to engage us. I also dont know exactly how strong the allied strike force was. I do know that our assigned escort (fate) had a total of 8 pilots and flew a loose escort that put them way in front of us where they either enggaed or were attacked and unable to support the 4 zekes we had when we did come under attack.
USMC / 71sqn stats:
Pilots: 17 Kills: 4 Assists: 1
Obj Destroyed: 35 Deaths: 15 Landed: 5
Bailed: 0 Captured: 1 Crashed: 0
Ditched: 0 Disco'd: 0
Now if we look at the counterpart
22:04:39 Departed from Field #8 in a SBD-5
22:05:47 Skillfully ditched.
22:05:50 Departed from Field #8 in a SBD-5
22:25:53 Shot down a B5N2 flown by Nosey.
22:27:56 Shot down a B5N2 flown by Bodean.
22:28:35 Helps Ghosth shoot down jappa52.
22:28:57 Shot down a B5N2 flown by WiLdDog1.
22:30:52 Helps Simaril shoot down TracerX.
22:31:30 Joined by Drano as gunner/observer.
22:50:55 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #8.
22:52:06 Arrived Safely at Field #8
This is simply deciding it would be more fun to cherrypick some kates then accomplish your assigned mission. As I said the SBD's were in zero danger. They just decided it would be more fun to pick...and it probably was:). But dont confuse that with anything else....
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I haven't read this whole thread, I don't have time to right now.
The penalty was small for a reason. The Allies did not intend to ditch on their orders from the start, it was not premeditated, it happened in the heat of battle. However because the allied attack group decided to engage the Kate's, three axis squads saw little action defending a cruiser group from an attack that never came.
I only wanted to make a statement with the 30 points. If your squad(s) are to attack a target, then you MUST attack that target. NOT switch to defending one of you own targets. UNLESS your CiC specificially tells you to. In which case he should vector other squads to cover your mission in T+60.
The 30 points will have little effect on the outcome of the event. (I hope) ;)
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Originally posted by humble
Now if we look at the counterpart
22:04:39 Departed from Field #8 in a SBD-5
22:05:47 Skillfully ditched.
22:05:50 Departed from Field #8 in a SBD-5
22:25:53 Shot down a B5N2 flown by Nosey.
22:27:56 Shot down a B5N2 flown by Bodean.
22:28:35 Helps Ghosth shoot down jappa52.
22:28:57 Shot down a B5N2 flown by WiLdDog1.
22:30:52 Helps Simaril shoot down TracerX.
22:31:30 Joined by Drano as gunner/observer.
22:50:55 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #8.
22:52:06 Arrived Safely at Field #8
This is simply deciding it would be more fun to cherrypick some kates then accomplish your assigned mission. As I said the SBD's were in zero danger. They just decided it would be more fun to pick...and it probably was:). But dont confuse that with anything else....
If your going to copy and paste from the logs, then do so with my entire squad as you did with yours. Don't show just half of the picture. As you will see I was the only one that made it out, but yet you say we were in no danger. Next time this happens I'll get on 200 and ask if we are in no danger from the other side. Will that work for you. That way I will know that I am in no danger and I won't engage the enemy. I will bring a better plane for cherry picking also as the SBD really doesn't fit the bill for this moniker. One last thing. By copying and pasting just my part of the battle you are pointing fingers. I find it sad as hell that one SBD had such an impact on the entire FSO in your opinion.
I tell you this, what is really sad is the IJN used 37 A6M5B's last night. The limit was 32, but I bet the CM will rule that its ok cause we don't want to upset anyone that didn't have a good time.
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oppss...wrong week. my bad.