Post by: sparow on August 15, 2007, 01:11:24 PM
I'm coming back to this topic...Always nice to stir things up a bit, once in a while...
I am aware that the need for submarines in Aces High is completely secondary but I still believe that it would bring a new dimension to the game, not in a strategical role, but more in a tactical role, as a CV killer.
Why do I say - me of all persons - submarines would be an easy addition to AH? Well, because, basicaly, everything we need is already here...
Naval vehicles: we have PT Boats;
Torpedoes: we have them;
Main guns: we have them;
AAA guns: there;
So, what don't we have?
An image of a surfaced U-Boat or Gato Class sub;
An image of a periscope snooping out of the water;
An image of a sinking submarine;
An image of the interior of the bridge, with access to the main control interface;
A periscope sight (this should not be hard);
An outside view from the turret;
Spawn: automatic and random;
General Heading Movement: subject to control by player, via waypoints, like CV's; otherwise, automatic;
Manual manouever movement: by keyboard or joystick, as in PTs, player controlled;
A submarine would be limited to 3 depths: surface (boat visible), periscope (only periscope visible, dark shadow visible from the air), underwater (300ft depth, invisible to all but HOST);
Depth control: via buttons on the command interface;
His ability to move on diesel or electric power would be automatic;
Range and autonomy (for a Gato class type):
11,800 nm at 10 knots (21,900 km at 19 km/h) surfaced
100 nm at 3 knots (185 km at 5.6 km/h) (maximum) submerged
Submerged Endurance: 48 hours
Speed: 20¼ knots (37.5 km/h) surfaced, 8¾ knots (16 km/h) submerged
Armament: 10 x 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes (6 forward, 4 aft, 24 torpedoes); 1 x 3 in (76 mm)/50 cal AA gun, 2 x .50 cal (12.7 mm) and 2 x .30 cal {7.6 2mm} machineguns);
Damage model: loss of engine, loss of control surfaces, hull perforation, by 20mm, rockets, bombs or artillery shells; not much needed to damage or sink a submarine...
Perk it a little, if you like...Why not?
Cheers,
Post by: Bosco123 on August 15, 2007, 01:27:15 PM
Get the Italian airforce!!
Post by: sparow on August 15, 2007, 01:32:44 PM
Thank you for reading.
Post by: Greebo on August 15, 2007, 02:40:27 PM
Also sonar, depth charges and hedgehog mortars for destroyers, if they could be made to detach a distance from the fleet under player control.
Post by: NHawk on August 15, 2007, 03:09:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by sparowThe ability to place anything below 0 altitude isn't possible in the software as it is now.
....So, what don't we have?
.....
Post by: dedalos on August 15, 2007, 03:32:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by NHawk
The ability to place anything below 0 altitude isn't possible in the software as it is now.
Could you email me a copy of the coad please? I'd like to see it too :rofl
Post by: Hornet33 on August 15, 2007, 04:04:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Greebo
You would also need some means of detecting and killing a submerged submarine or they would be too powerful. Depth charges for aircraft and ideally the ability to see the sub hazily through the water when it is near the surface.
Also sonar, depth charges and hedgehog mortars for destroyers, if they could be made to detach a distance from the fleet under player control.
Not really all that hard. Make the depth charges like the puffy ack and make it auto. If a submerged sub gets close to a battle group it starts depth charging. A sub at periscope depth should be easy to kill with bombs since the original idea said that you would be able to see a dark outline of the sub at PD.
As slow as subs were they wouldn't be all that powerfull in the game but might be fun to play with.
As far as the zero altitude setting the original idea also took that into account. For the 3 depth settings you only have to make 2 models. One surface running sub, and anouther of just the periscope. Everything going on below the water is just a matter of moving a marker around.
Post by: Oogly50 on August 15, 2007, 04:13:45 PM
Post by: Ghosth on August 16, 2007, 07:29:11 AM
Then you need sonar, both active and passive for both the subs and the destroyers.
Lick those 2 problems and yes the rest of it is fairly easy.
BTW You also need to be able to man a deck gun 4"?
Post by: OOZ662 on August 16, 2007, 07:38:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Could you email me a copy of the coad please? I'd like to see it too :rofl
The GV-falling-forever bug, the gunner-unable-to-exit-after-pilot-death bug, the ability to throw PTs up into the air and pierce the ground thereby entering the neverending spiral.
These all show that there is no below-ground. Crash a plane at high speed and you'll see as well.
Post by: NHawk on August 16, 2007, 12:23:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by dedalosWhen you've worked with terrains as much as I have and you have an intimate knowledge of how things work in the game, then and only then can you make a comment like this with any hope of validity.
Could you email me a copy of the coad please? I'd like to see it too :rofl
Post by: sparow on August 16, 2007, 01:33:49 PM
Thank you for your posting. In fact, maybe you're taking this simple idea a bit further...
My idea is simple: a surfaced sub (Position 1) sails like a PTBoat. It fires torpedos like a PTBoat. It shoots it's main deck gun like any other ship gun, airfield ack or tank. Even the placement and operation of the turret machine guns works just like in the tank turret...
A periscope depth submerged submarine (Position 2) only shows the tip of the periscope and - if possible - a small wake behind it. The colour of the sea, in roughly the area of the submarine, turns darker to simulate it's presence. But it is 1 pixel deep. Well, as deep as the ocean surface, because it is the ocean, only a bit darker...It would still be capable to fire his torpedos.
At 300ft deep (Position 3), no one would be able to see or sink a submarine. Only HOST would know his location. And the player in control, if any.
So, because you only have 3 depths, at surface and periscope depths it would have a graphical depiction and the sub would be vulnerable to everything one throwed at it. At 300ft depth, nothing would be able to touch it, or could he attack nothing too.
Diving or surfacing animations, should be made easy: when it dives, is like sinking head first but with a very shallow angle - and it dives to nothing, really - and produces a white wake then...nothing...only a periscope out if submerging to periscope depth, nothing at all if diving to 300ft...
When it comes up, it's exactly the reverse: first the periscope shows up, then his bow comes out of the limbo followed by the rest of the hull, in a very shallow angle, until all the visible submarine is surfaced. It still will be a less than half sub...
When sinking, it will sink head first, like the boats.
I don't think sonar would be of much use...It just would complicate matters...Just make the Task Force flash and give the DD's the possibility to throw depth charges in the general direction of the menace...Also allow for cruiser and CV guns to automatically start shooting at the sub like they already do at aircraft or PTBoats...A good 250lb bomb should be enough to sink a submarine. Maybe even a couple of smaller bombs or even rockets.
Doing 20knots surfaced and 8knots submerged, a submarine would not be able to run away easily except if it went to Position 3 mode quickly. Anyway, that would make it harmless, so...
NEW IDEA :O : at 300ft depth, no dar, voice or text comms would be available, only at periscope or surfaced! What do you think?
Now, imagine: three or four submarines gather into a wolfpack and they start chasing those Task Forces parked by an airfield...or hidden in safe place...That would give our "Admirals" something to think about, right?
Fire all tubes!
Cheers,
Post by: Traveler on August 16, 2007, 01:55:40 PM
I think it's a lot of work and not as easy to put into action as it might first apper.
perhaps after completion of Combat tour, yea, that's the ticket. Two weeks after Combat Tour is release the first upgrade will have subs.
Post by: Bosco123 on August 16, 2007, 03:53:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by OOZ662
The GV-falling-forever bug, the gunner-unable-to-exit-after-pilot-death bug, the ability to throw PTs up into the air and pierce the ground thereby entering the neverending spiral.
These all show that there is no below-ground. Crash a plane at high speed and you'll see as well.
hey OOZ I see that you lost your avitar. What happend?
Post by: dedalos on August 16, 2007, 04:09:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by NHawk
When you've worked with terrains as much as I have and you have an intimate knowledge of how things work in the game, then and only then can you make a comment like this with any hope of validity.
So you don't really know if the coad can support it or how big of a coad change would be needed
Post by: NHawk on August 16, 2007, 04:13:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by dedalosI know the ability to place anything below 0 altitude isn't possible in the software as it is now.
So you don't really know if the coad can support it or how big of a coad change would be needed
So, FACT the code/software doesn't support it.
No, I do not have any idea how big of a change would be needed to support it. But having been a game programmer I can take a pretty good guess. In simple terms it would probably mean making an artificial hard deck at say 500 ft then calling that 0 altitude. Anything below that point would be "below sea level".
Post by: PanzerIV on August 16, 2007, 04:21:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by NHawk
The ability to place anything below 0 altitude isn't possible in the software as it is now.
Except LVTs!
Post by: NHawk on August 16, 2007, 04:24:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by PanzerIVLOL..nice try :)
Except LVTs!
Post by: dedalos on August 16, 2007, 04:24:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by NHawk
I know the ability to place anything below 0 altitude isn't possible in the software as it is now.
So, FACT the code/software doesn't support it.
No, I do not have any idea how big of a change would be needed to support it. But having been a game programmer I can take a pretty good guess. It would probably mean making an artificial hard deck at say 500 ft then calling that 0 altitude. Anything below that point would be "below sea level".
ok, HT probably LHAO listening to us arguing about what he cant or cant do.
So, as a programmer, why would you need to create anything below sea level. All you need is 0 level for the when the sub is on surf, 0 level for when at scope depth, and well nothing for when is under water. Just a way to keep track of its posion and its depth. How long did you program games for?
Post by: NHawk on August 16, 2007, 04:28:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by dedalosMany, many years. My games were on AOL from 1993 to 1999. I still have my last contract with AOL, unsigned. And my letter to them discontinuing the use of my games there.
ok, HT probably LHAO listening to us arguing about what he cant or cant do.
So, as a programmer, why would you need to create anything below sea level. All you need is 0 level for the when the sub is on surf, 0 level for when at scope depth, and well nothing for when is under water. Just a way to keep track of its posion. How long did you program games for?
You're probably right, that might work. Except if there is to be any visible sign of the sub under water. You might even get away with a visual representation of it under water floating along at 0. But the way I look at it is if you're going to do it, do it all the way. But, there are a hundred ways to approach every programming problem. One way does not make another way incorrect.
And you're right HT is probably laughing because since he's expressed interest in subs in the past, he may have it coded already.
Post by: B@tfinkV on August 16, 2007, 04:53:44 PM
deep - the sub doesnt need to exist in a drawn up world it simply vanishes from view for everyone else and the player is confined to inside view. the server doesnt need to track the sub as 'underwater' it simply plots the subs pos on the surface but makes it invisible and immune to surface weapons
scope - all that is needed is a superficial shadow on the surface to indicate its possition and an image through the scope for the player. now it must be able to be hit with heavy ordanace but small arms not effective.
surface - just like a PT boat with reviewed hardness and soft spots.
so as can see its not really a whole new coad, even.
really very well thought and worded wish. i agree fully.
Post by: OOZ662 on August 17, 2007, 12:33:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bosco123
hey OOZ I see that you lost your avitar. What happend?
My signature displays as far as I'll go publicly.
Post by: B@tfinkV on August 17, 2007, 12:50:33 AM
:(
Post by: sparow on August 17, 2007, 11:43:46 AM
Thank you all for your input.
Batfink, I really appreciated your support of this concept.
So, it could be done, right?
Keeping it simple, low-cost and low-tech, how long would it take to bring it in?
No, noooo, don't say it :eek: !!!!
Cheers,
P.S.: 2 weeks?
Post by: dedalos on August 17, 2007, 12:59:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by sparow
how long would it take to bring it in?
I'd say we will never see it. Whats the point anyway? Torps can be fired from PTs and they are not needed anyway. Couple of LANCs going through the useless puffy ack is all you need
Post by: Kami on August 17, 2007, 06:38:12 PM
1.Surfaced - Normal Model w/ full wake (PT Boat). full damage modeling
2.Periscope - Ultra thin "shadow" model w/ periscope and its wake. Smaller Harder damage modeling.
3.Fully Submerged - No model, No damage model.
I'd say don't even worry about depth charges. Let the CV flash much like GV attacks on bases. Everyone will learn that it must be a sub attacking nearby. Allow ship guns to only fire at fully surfaced model(because that ack can take out a slow target pretty easy.
As for the Periscope depth damage, have a change in damage modeling so mg/cannon rounds do nothing but bombs still act as if it was surfaced(make ultra slim "shadow" a "hard" target).
BTW the periscope depth one would still allow for damage by enemy subs torps since torps can take out "hard" targets.
Post by: sparow on August 18, 2007, 02:21:55 PM
At least we could surface at periscope depth near the ships and shoot all front tubes and dive to 300 ft...and maybe not get ripped apart by the large guns...or a near-by TBM or SBD loaded with a few 500 pounders...
Cheers,
Post by: balance1 on August 18, 2007, 03:10:24 PM
sparrow this is quite possibly the most beautifuly worded and purest idea I think I have ever seen on the BBS
GOOD JOB:aok :aok :aok
hope HiTech seriously considers this one,
~Balance1
Post by: mrmidi on August 19, 2007, 11:38:50 AM
then we need Pyro to make them work, and Hitech to COAD them...
It's just a start not finished with them yet.
(http://www.mrmidi.net/images/AH/uboats.jpg)
Mid
Post by: sparow on August 19, 2007, 11:55:26 AM
Balance, thank you for your support.
Mrmidi, you've hit the nail, that's it!!! One detail, though: because there would be no graphic depiction for the hull below waterline, could you cut it by the waterline and place it in the water just like that?
It's looking awesome! :aok
This is going to be a blast!
Thank you all!
Post by: mrmidi on August 19, 2007, 12:21:58 PM
pic..:aok
Hows this?
Mid
(http://mrmidi.net/images/AH/uboats2.jpg)
Post by: sparow on August 19, 2007, 12:49:42 PM
Great job! I searched pictures of surfaced submarines and I think that you levelled the sub very well, looks real to me. I would let it as it is. :aok
Could you try a periscope depth preview? The darkened sea - the sub shade - may be trickier... :eek:
Is that a Gato Class sub or a U-Boat? Not that it matters, there should be only one model, same for all. The best one if possible, of course, attending to armament and technical caracteristics...
Can't wait to surface one in the middle of a Task Group! :t
Cheers,
Post by: mrmidi on August 19, 2007, 12:54:08 PM
Also got to have one of these....;)
(http://www.mrmidi.net/images/AH/periscope_view.jpg)
Mid
Post by: Meatwad on August 19, 2007, 01:54:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Could you email me a copy of the coad please? I'd like to see it too :rofl
I dont know about that. Lately I have been pretty good at dropping my GV's down hidden mine shafts.
Post by: sparow on August 19, 2007, 04:22:30 PM
I meant the view of the periscope only out of the water... but good show, anyway! Saw your PM. Will reply later.
I got this example for a periscope view, from an American sub, I think:
!["Photo]("http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb38/Sparow_bucket/periscopeview.jpg")
Hope I did this right, second time doing it...and almost forgot it...
Cheers,
Post by: sparow on August 19, 2007, 04:28:46 PM
IMG]http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb38/Sparow_bucket/periscopeview.jpg[/IMG]
Let's see what happens...
Cheers,
Post by: sparow on August 19, 2007, 04:30:01 PM
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb38/Sparow_bucket/periscopeview.jpg)
?
Post by: EagleDNY on August 19, 2007, 06:45:18 PM
The main problem is that any target you want to go after with your torpedoes is moving at least 15 knots faster than you are at your top surface speed. Your chance of getting into a firing position is practically zero unless you just run your sub to a port and wait for a CV group to respawn. At that point you have to hope the CV is heading towards you unawares, because your torps lack the speed to catch him from behind at anything but extreme close range.
Couple this with the lack of any other ship target - no freighters, tankers, troopships, battleships, etc. and you are left with putzing around on the surface at 20 knots hoping that someone doesn't see you and drop a bomb on your head, or crawling around looking through a periscope for targets that don't exist at 8 knots.
I suppose HTC could spend the next year recoding the terrain system, inventing a realistic sonar system, recoding all the ships and adding a lot more ship types, if they wanted to completely waste their time that is. If you want a sub sim, go get one... there are plenty of other things that desperately need work in this game before we need to be adding subs.
EagleDNY
$.02
Post by: SFraptor on August 19, 2007, 07:12:55 PM
Post by: Denholm on August 19, 2007, 07:48:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by mrmidi
It's a Uboat textures are not perfect but that can be fixed as well.
Also got to have one of these....;)
(http://www.mrmidi.net/images/AH/periscope_view.jpg)
Mid
Is that a picture of the periscope from a submarine or something else? If it's something on the submarine I'd like to know how you managed to fit a working gun onto a custom object and allowed it to be manned.
Post by: Relorian on August 19, 2007, 10:44:33 PM
Id rather see more planes and load outs and possibly a B-25 that could lift off of a CV doolittle style before id want to see subs.
Post by: Motherland on August 19, 2007, 10:53:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Relorian
Id rather see more planes and load outs and possibly a B-25 that could lift off of a CV doolittle style before id want to see subs.
A B25 is in the works... you're not gonna get any Doolittle raids outta them, though.
Post by: Relorian on August 20, 2007, 01:19:56 AM
Post by: sparow on August 20, 2007, 12:19:50 PM
Eagle, your right about fleet speed...They run around like if there was no tomorrow...Fleet speed should be adjusted. I do not know what's the actual fleet speed in AH but, if it is 35 knots, that's a big mistake...Iowa Class battleships could reach 33 knots, and not for long, especially if they were part of a Task Group...
The CV Wasp had a top speed of 29,5 knots but I am certain that they were not at that speed for long periods of time...That means a top speed 8,3/4 knots higher than a Gato Class submarine...
CVE Bogue, an Escort Carrier, could do 18knots, slower than a submarine...
And a Fleet Oiler like USS Ponaganset was able of 15,5 knots, 13 knots beeing economical maximum speed...
A Task Group, although depicting only a CV with his Cruiser and Destroyers escort, has a complement of other ships, so, I do not think to be very wrong if I suggested a TG speed should be between 10 and 20 knots, undamaged!
Yes, this is an important issue, because a damaged ship loses speed, a lot of speed...With important damage, a CV speed could fall to, say, 8 to 5 knots...
This would be easy to implement. Sonar or a Catalina wouldn't. No need for depth charges either. Is a simple matter of taking off with a TBM and drop a couple of 500lbs into the sub shade, if he's stupid enough to be there...
Even with little targets, having a submarine is better than not having one. Little work is needed to put a submarine sailing in Aces High. It's as easy as creating a Tank. Infinitely simpler than to build an aircraft.
Evolution comes in small steps. Daily.
Thank you for your contribution, it's good to know that people read and think about new things.
Cheers,