Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Vudak on August 15, 2007, 09:56:45 PM
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Hey all,
Tonight I went to the DA with a good stick. We were flying Spit9's, and, more often than not, we'd get into a position where neither of us had the clear cut advantage. We weren't going around in a textbook Lufberry, but we were, at times, circling with a series of high and low yoyos, each trying to cut into the others turn/evade the manuevering.
This isn't all we did, as one or the other would eventually initiate a rolling scissors to try and grab an angle, but this was a major factor in the duels.
The fights generally lasted a very long time for DA duels as each of us tried to carve out some sort of advantage.
There's the situation. Now here comes my question:
I would find that when I was experiencing stall buffeting, we'd stay more or less even until one of us reversed and initiated a rolling scissors.
However, the few times I tried easing back on the stick a bit, putting myself slightly into lag, but also having the stall horn, but not buzzer going, I'd find that, eventually, I'd get into a position where I could "go for broke" and move into the stall buffeting to try and go for a shot.
Now, since the duels all lasted so long, we didn't really fly that many of them, and I did not get the chance to really expand on this to see what the real deal is.
So in short, is it preferable in terms of turn radius and rate to go for an all out stall-buffeting, riding right at the very edge before stall turn? Or is that actually counter-productive, and should the edge I be shooting for be the one right before the buffeting actually occurs?
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From all my experience its not a good idea to "ride right at the very edge before stall turn". Normally (what I do) if you're coming to the edge of stall, and you see that the enemy is coming close to it too, is to let up on the turn a little. Let them stall and there you go, easy kill. If they still have E left then the best thing to do is low yo-yo to get speed back up, and let up on your turn a little so you can keep that little bit of E longer. It basiclly is all about Energy managment.
I'm not really an expert on these kind of things (yet ;) ) but these things usually work best for me and I haven't changed since. Best to read what a trainer posts when they get to this thread.
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The thing is, neither one of us were going to stall in this Lufberry-esque manuever... We both were able to skirt that unpleasantry :)
I'm just wondering if it does in fact make sense to not have your plane be shaking all around stall buffeting? It seems logical, but I was wondering what others' thoughts were.
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And the survey SAYS!!..........
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heres a film i found that definitely shows a duel 'on the edge'
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/PhuMnChu.ahf
i got beat more than not vs this guy, he was a very good stick. i thought this might help because, had i not squelched my stall horn, it would have been going off more than 75% of the fight.
great fun.
i rekon, riding the edge to its true potential is going to win a fight for you over E management, in these turn n burn style planes. but, and here is the kicker, we are both flying very smooth and gentle between the moments of riding the edge. so i think the key is timing, and to do a bit of both methods where applicable.
S!
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I'd say buffeting is better. I might be wrong, but right now that's what I think.
A couple other tips...
If you've just about got him in your sights, but you need to pull just a little more lead to put rounds on him, give full rudder into your turn, and aileron away from your turn. This should slide your nose and give those extra few degrees that you need.
Also, in the toilet bowl (luftberry), try to start nosing up a little while turning. This will put you in a stall, but it allows you to cut across his turn on the way back down. It may take a few times going around the circle and doing this, but my experience has been that the person that does this will graduallly gain angles and win.
It doesn't have to be an either/or situation with regards to e-management and riding the stall. The last part (about nosing up to cut across his turn) incorporates both styles.
I could be wrong, though.
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IMO planes fly's smoother if I can just keep it out of the buffet. Smoother = less drag, and eventually better E.
Also while I'm not a killer duelest I do have one thing you might try.
Instead of sticking to a strickly flat circle. Think more like a racetrack pattern, you know the old dirt tracks that were banked up on the ends. Or take a look at a skateboard. Flat in the center, lengthened oval in design, with the ends bent up.
Fly the outside of the skateboard.
Starts by just bringing the nose up just a bit in the tightest part of your turn.
Then as you get into the buffet, go nose down (with a bit of tail slide perhaps)
Ease your turn up as your sliding down, building speed, then bring it up and do it again. Harder to describe than do, but when it works right you'll slowly start gaining altittude while hopefully not losing angles. Idea is to eventually get enough for a split S, or a hard nose down turn with a tail slide to get nose to nose with him.
The other advantage is that as your building E, he' sees this as a chance to gain angles. So he's going to be bringing it all out trying to get a shot. As you enter that last turn he's cranking like crazy trying to follow you up without the E to do it. Since he burned his on angles. One way or another you have got a real chance to hurt him. If he doesn't stall or you miss the shot, just dive for the deck building speed as he's recovering. Reverse back high, and he should be there below you all laid out for the kill
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The stall horn indicates that you are approaching stall, the buffeting indicates that you have stalled. A lot of players associate the word stall with "dropping out of the sky". Thats usually due to a spin, where one wing has stalled and the other hasn't. Maneuvering during a stall is usually what causes the spin.
Also note that stalling has NOTHING to do with airspeed. A lot of pilots believe that it does cause they have to deal with Vs (stalling SPEED). But the stall actually occurs due to a high Angle Of Attack (which u usually generate whilst flying at low speeds, hence the stalling speed limit). But a stall can happen at any speed when you exceed the angle of attack (usually over 16 degrees). Also note that angle of attack is not your aircraft's pitch angle.
Now in your situation, when you hear the buzzer, its the aircraft's way of warning you that you are APPROACHING stall. When the stall actually commences airflow over the wing separates resulting in a loss of lift. The turbulence this causes, is whats felt as buffet. Since its the lift generated by the wings that's turning you, when the buffet starts, you lost some lift and so will turn slower. When you ease off on the stick, you reduce the AoA and allow the airflow to re-attach, improving your wings lifting capacity and hence you turn rate.
CLEAR?:huh :D :D
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I think it all depends on your and your opponents plane(s) and energy state(s).
In Spits, as you were, riding the buffet is probably best if that's what your opponent is doing. Many times in these fights the guy who can walk the stall tightrope the closest will win. As mentioned above, lifting through part of the turn usually helps gain angles.
In other planes I find relaxing the stick gets me around faster and gets me on their six sooner. I had exactly this situation in a Yak the other night (I think it was against a 109K-4 but I'm not sure). As soon as I relaxed the stick a little I was gaining position.
Also remember that relaxing the stick gives you an E advantage (even if slight) that you may be able to use to disengage and re-merge or use a verticle manouver that your opponent can't follow.
If one ways not working for you try the other. Just be ready to switch back if you need to.
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Originally posted by Fianna
I'd say buffeting is better. I might be wrong, but right now that's what I think.
A couple other tips...
If you've just about got him in your sights, but you need to pull just a little more lead to put rounds on him, give full rudder into your turn, and aileron away from your turn. This should slide your nose and give those extra few degrees that you need.
Also, in the toilet bowl (luftberry), try to start nosing up a little while turning. This will put you in a stall, but it allows you to cut across his turn on the way back down. It may take a few times going around the circle and doing this, but my experience has been that the person that does this will graduallly gain angles and win.
It doesn't have to be an either/or situation with regards to e-management and riding the stall. The last part (about nosing up to cut across his turn) incorporates both styles.
I could be wrong, though.
I agree fianna, i had some great fights with domin back in march and april where the fights where 5+ minutes long we were both in spit 8's and we were both riding the buffet quite litterally helicopters at some points in the fights. i remember the fights ending in 1 or the other dieng, but a few of the fights were just who hit the ground first... those are some of my most cherished ah2 memories;)
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Ah, I see you too have run into Phu, Bat :) very fun indeed
Thanks for the replies, everyone!
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Originally posted by Hazard69
The stall horn indicates that you are approaching stall, the buffeting indicates that you have stalled. A lot of players associate the word stall with "dropping out of the sky". Thats usually due to a spin, where one wing has stalled and the other hasn't. Maneuvering during a stall is usually what causes the spin.
Also note that stalling has NOTHING to do with airspeed. A lot of pilots believe that it does cause they have to deal with Vs (stalling SPEED). But the stall actually occurs due to a high Angle Of Attack (which u usually generate whilst flying at low speeds, hence the stalling speed limit). But a stall can happen at any speed when you exceed the angle of attack (usually over 16 degrees). Also note that angle of attack is not your aircraft's pitch angle.
Now in your situation, when you hear the buzzer, its the aircraft's way of warning you that you are APPROACHING stall. When the stall actually commences airflow over the wing separates resulting in a loss of lift. The turbulence this causes, is whats felt as buffet. Since its the lift generated by the wings that's turning you, when the buffet starts, you lost some lift and so will turn slower. When you ease off on the stick, you reduce the AoA and allow the airflow to re-attach, improving your wings lifting capacity and hence you turn rate.
CLEAR?:huh :D :D
If a buffet means you're actually stalling though - and if the stallhorn blasts while you're buffeting - how come you can still climb, turn, tighten, whatever while the buffeting is going on?
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The whole wing doesn't stall at once, it is progresive. I just can't remember if it's from tip to root or root to tip. The buffet is the turbulant air moving over the wing, and turbulant air is bad for aerodynamics.
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Originally posted by SIK1
The whole wing doesn't stall at once, it is progresive. I just can't remember if it's from tip to root or root to tip. The buffet is the turbulant air moving over the wing, and turbulant air is bad for aerodynamics.
I think it's root to tip IIRC.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I think it's root to tip IIRC.
I do as well. That way you still have aileron control. If it was tip to root you would lose aileron authority early in the stall.
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Originally posted by Vudak
If a buffet means you're actually stalling though - and if the stallhorn blasts while you're buffeting - how come you can still climb, turn, tighten, whatever while the buffeting is going on?
Only part of your wing is stalling. Enough of your wing still has lift to allow maneuvering.
I'm thinking Widewing did some tests where he got better turn radius (not sure about rate) riding the turn into the buffet rather than holding off. Can't find it in a search, though, so I may be hallucinating :rolleyes:
Regards,
Hammer
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Originally posted by Vudak
Ah, I see you too have run into Phu, Bat :) very fun indeed
Thanks for the replies, everyone!
cc and i posted one of the few fights i won, but purely because it was the longest and most interesting example. the ones i lost usualy lasted a much shorter time. we had a great 303 battle for the last fight.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
cc and i posted one of the few fights i won, but purely because it was the longest and most interesting example. the ones i lost usualy lasted a much shorter time. we had a great 303 battle for the last fight.
Speaking of duels, Bat, we need to get back into the DA sometime soon... I keep trying to pick fights with some of the better sticks but it appears I'm not a big enough jerk lol :(
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Originally posted by SIK1
The whole wing doesn't stall at once, it is progresive. I just can't remember if it's from tip to root or root to tip. The buffet is the turbulant air moving over the wing, and turbulant air is bad for aerodynamics
The stall should start closer to the root and progress outward. Most planes (all?) are designed so that happens. My factual knowledge regarding this is sparse, but IIRC the stall generally starts about 1/3 of the way out on the wing from the root. I believe twin-engine prop planes have their engines mounted here at least partially due to this, in an effort to delay the onset of the stall. I could be wrong though- maybe someone else will supply more facts.
I'll throw a basic explanation out that can be corrected by those who know better...
I know that what you really want to avoid is a stall out at the wingtips. Those are usually a pretty violent stall without much warning. The type where one wing drops rapidly, rather than the nose of the plane gently dropping or buffeting.
Those that build R/C planes may recall on the simpler rib and spar constucted wings that "washout" would be added to the wing by warping the leading edge of the wingtips down a tad to create a lower AoA near the wingtip. This forces the stall to occur closer in to the wingroot. More modern R/C sheeted wings are designed so that as you build them washout is added without any real input from the builder. It's still there if you look closely though.
I have no idea whether WW2 planes had washout built in or not. I'd be shocked if modern private planes didn't have washout, but I really don't know.
Dropping flaps would also seem to have the same effect, but to a much larger degree. It makes the inner portion of the wing have a higher AoA than the tips, again making the tips less likely to stall first. This is good since often when flaps are down you are low and slow where a violent wing-dropping stall would be bad.
When you use aileron you increase the angle of attack at the wingtip for one wing, while lowering it for the other. The tip with the elevated AoA is the one you are trying to make go upward (left wing for a right roll). This actually makes that wingtip more prone to a stall, which would cause your left wing to drop while applying more right aileron, which is bad. You'd likely correct instinctively with full right aileron to counter, and that would be very bad.
At high enough airspeed this isn't as apparent as at low speed, especially near stall.
Before that stall occurs you do see signs of "adverse yaw effect" which is caused by the lowered aileron creating more drag than the raised aileron. This gives you a left yaw for an application of right aileron. The left aileron creating more drag will cause the left wing to slow down and drop, while the right wing speeds up and raises. If allowed to continue this will eventually result in the left wing stalling and initiate a spin.
Of course you should be countering this adverse yaw effect by applying right rudder with right aileron, and left rudder with left aileron (coordinated turn). This helps to keep the higher drag wing at a higher airspeed to avoid those bad consequences.
MtnMan
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Originally posted by hammer
Only part of your wing is stalling. Enough of your wing still has lift to allow maneuvering.
I'm thinking Widewing did some tests where he got better turn radius (not sure about rate) riding the turn into the buffet rather than holding off. Can't find it in a search, though, so I may be hallucinating :rolleyes:
Regards,
Hammer
You remembered correctly. You get the best turn radius well into stall buffet. However, if you fly too deep into the buffet, your radius will increase due the plane washing out (dip a wing, recover, dip it again, recover, etc).
Finding that "happy" spot takes practice, and it differs in every aircraft.
My regards,
Widewing
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just don't confuse the two
turn radius & turn rate
and if you want to find Widewing's testing method and posted results, he posted them in the following thread link
Mosq's Sustained Turn List v 2.07
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177723
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
heres a film i found that definitely shows a duel 'on the edge'
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/PhuMnChu.ahf
i got beat more than not vs this guy, he was a very good stick. i thought this might help because, had i not squelched my stall horn, it would have been going off more than 75% of the fight.
great fun.
i rekon, riding the edge to its true potential is going to win a fight for you over E management, in these turn n burn style planes. but, and here is the kicker, we are both flying very smooth and gentle between the moments of riding the edge. so i think the key is timing, and to do a bit of both methods where applicable.
S!
VERY nice flying..both of ya......i can't fly that slow..yet.........i'd bet that had your heart pumping though....
<>
john
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Originally posted by Hazard69
The stall horn indicates that you are approaching stall, the buffeting indicates that you have stalled. A lot of players associate the word stall with "dropping out of the sky". Thats usually due to a spin, where one wing has stalled and the other hasn't. Maneuvering during a stall is usually what causes the spin.
Also note that stalling has NOTHING to do with airspeed. A lot of pilots believe that it does cause they have to deal with Vs (stalling SPEED). But the stall actually occurs due to a high Angle Of Attack (which u usually generate whilst flying at low speeds, hence the stalling speed limit). But a stall can happen at any speed when you exceed the angle of attack (usually over 16 degrees). Also note that angle of attack is not your aircraft's pitch angle.
1)i'll add a bit here? angle of attack is your wing's relative angle to the oncomming wind. the oncomming wind is produced by your airplane's foward speed. in level flight, most aircraft are generally at about 8 to 10 degrees(i think). most will stall at about 17 degrees. this happens because at that angle, the air cannot flow smoothly accross the top of the wing, thus loosing lift. if you're flying full throttle, at say....300mph for instance......pull up gently into a loop, you're keeping the wing within the CRITICAL angle of attack. now do the same thing, and "jerk" the stick back. you'll notice the buzzer, buffeting,(which is NOT the actual stall, but another warning that the stall is immenint) and most likely, she'll drop a wing on ya. this is because you've now moved the wing above the critical AOA. once the nose drops, the wing comes into the envelope again, and is once again producing lift.
it should also be noted that the airplane does NOT know which way is up, so if you're rolled 90 degrees into a turn, then to the plane sideways is up, and the lift is being produced that way....if you pul too hard in the turn......same thing as pulling up too hard.
my apologies for the long expanation...just trying to help when/where i can
Now in your situation, when you hear the buzzer, its the aircraft's way of warning you that you are APPROACHING stall. When the stall actually commences airflow over the wing separates resulting in a loss of lift. The turbulence this causes, is whats felt as buffet. Since its the lift generated by the wings that's turning you, when the buffet starts, you lost some lift and so will turn slower. When you ease off on the stick, you reduce the AoA and allow the airflow to re-attach, improving your wings lifting capacity and hence you turn rate.
CLEAR?:huh :D :D
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Originally posted by Vudak
If a buffet means you're actually stalling though - and if the stallhorn blasts while you're buffeting - how come you can still climb, turn, tighten, whatever while the buffeting is going on?
the buffeting is an imminent stall. the buzzer will sound as long as there's negative air pressure on the inlet port in the wing. so although you're buffeting, you're still kinda flying.......but one wrong input'll drop ya right into that stall...........
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Originally posted by SIK1
The whole wing doesn't stall at once, it is progresive. I just can't remember if it's from tip to root or root to tip. The buffet is the turbulant air moving over the wing, and turbulant air is bad for aerodynamics.
i believe it stalls from inner to outter wing......as it would seem that stall fences installed on tops of some wings seem to be in an attempt to keep the seperated air from spreading to the outter wing(where your aielrons are)
now, i'm gonna add a question to this........in...say for instance a cessna....you perform a stall, but the right wing drops.....proper recovery is relax elevator, neutral aieleron, rudder opposite the dropped wing, firewall throttle, carb heat to cold.......the plane is flying again very quickly. reason for neutreal aileron, is because the drag created by the aileron rising on the stalled wing will drag you farther into the stall and ensueing spin,,,,,,so...is that modeled into our cartoon fighters?
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The way the stall progresses depends upon wing shapes. All wings usually generate some turbulence at the root due to interference in airflows over the wing and fuselage. These become prominent on approach to stall. Also all wings have tip vortexes which usually result in reducing AoA at the tips and thus help to delay tip stall (at the expense of more drag).
A rectangular wing (like on a training C-152) has the greatest AoA at the root and usually tends to stall root first. This is the best way to stall cause you only loose lift and as the nose goes down, the AoA reduces and the wing almost "recovers itself"
An elliptical wing has the same AoA across it and so usually its stalls all at once. Once stalled a elliptical wing needs some diving action to recover; However with an elliptical wing the aircraft can usually attain a higher pitch angle without reaching a stalling AoA.
The tapered wing however has increasing AoA progressively until about 2/3 of the span out after which it reduces down to the tip. This wing has greater spinning tendencies, since the stall originates so far out along the span. However many high performance use this type of wing since it offers the best efficiency (highest L/D ratio).
Clearer?:huh :D :D
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
just don't confuse the two
turn radius & turn rate
and if you want to find Widewing's testing method and posted results, he posted them in the following thread link
Mosq's Sustained Turn List v 2.07
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177723
I tried to d/l this and get an error message. Can someone help me out here and send it to me please? PM me for my email?
Thanks
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Originally posted by Skeld
I tried to d/l this and get an error message. Can someone help me out here and send it to me please? PM me for my email?
Thanks
it is nothing to download. it is a link to a thread on these here messageboards.....
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Originally posted by Vudak
Speaking of duels, Bat, we need to get back into the DA sometime soon... I keep trying to pick fights with some of the better sticks but it appears I'm not a big enough jerk lol :(
great fun duels the other night man. won some lost some and i definitely rammed someone more than once through the night :)
S! to vudak, maha, phumnchu, dedalos and anyone else i forgetting about.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
it is nothing to download. it is a link to a thread on these here messageboards.....
Ummm...... ya.
His posted results in that thread are a link to a .pdf file that gives me an error message when I attempt to d/l it...I was just seeing if anyone had that .pdf handy and would send it to me...
I guess I should just bump that post and ask for it there huh?