Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SirLoin on August 21, 2007, 01:08:56 PM
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We got 2xLW's,1 MW & 1 EW arenas(excluding all other arenas for pointsake)
Would you fly a "CV Only" arena? With ports & v-bases in an isles map format?
Wouldn't be too hard for HTC to set up i would guess.
Whadd'ya say HiTech?(* what u guys think?)
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It's a good idea, but it would exceed the limits for the number of CVs allowed on a map.
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Nhawk how do you figure?
Training arena terrain has multipule CV groups for each country.
I think Bishops side has 5.
I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work if someone took the time to make a map.
At worst you could put 3 uncapturable fields and strat objects in the far corners.
Do a kind of furball island with V fields in the center and ports strung around that on small islands.
Could be imo very interesting indeed.
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i think skuzzy said once for a main arena map there shouldnt be mny more then 3 cvs per side
its was set so as to make the load on the users pc when updating less of a strain,thaa way even a crap pc will keep up.the cv has to be updates all the time and more cvs the more the load
well thats how it was explained to me
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OK, so a small map with 9 Ports (3 for each side) 6 v-bases on a center island and 3 uncapable air bases way down in the corners with all the strat.
Sounds fun to me. But I like CV action
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Originally posted by rogerdee
i think skuzzy said once for a main arena map there shouldnt be mny more then 3 cvs per side
its was set so as to make the load on the users pc when updating less of a strain,thaa way even a crap pc will keep up.the cv has to be updates all the time and more cvs the more the load
well thats how it was explained to me
You probably misunderstood. There is no reason for a CV group to update until damaged or reaching a way point
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Unlike an airfield, the CV is always moving.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Unlike an airfield, the CV is always moving.
Yes, but its destination is known. No need for updates until the way points change or reached. No load on the FE at all. All that change are the coordinates when not visible.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Yes, but its destination is known. No need for updates until the way points change or reached. No load on the FE at all. All that change are the coordinates when not visible.
Ok, here's a quote when I asked about 5 or 6 ports/CVs per country...
"That many CV groups would make the terrain difficult for most players to
play on. CV groups are a heavy resource drain on the client and the
severs as the server has to move them around and keep up with them."
There's nothing there to misunderstand.
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Originally posted by NHawk
Ok, here's a quote when I asked about 5 or 6 ports/CVs per country...
"That many CV groups would make the terrain difficult for most players to
play on. CV groups are a heavy resource drain on the client and the
severs as the server has to move them around and keep up with them."
There's nothing there to mis-understand.
Well, unless they are talking about what happens when all 6 CV groups are on top one an other, this makes no sense at all from software design perspective. The server moves planes around all the time. I guess CVs are too heavy for the servers to move :rofl
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In a scenario a year or so ago our objective was to destroy a CV group. Problem was the other side grouped all their CV's in one area. For almost a full sector my frame rates were in single digits. That was with a 3.2g Northwood and a 6800GT. When I dove to drop my ords I was getting 2fps, had to toggle my bombs multiple times for them to drop, then I wasn't able to pull out of the dive because of the low FR's.
When you have the ability to group more than 4 CV groups in an area within the same sector some users will not be able to play, not a wise idea for HTC to allow this to happen, IMO.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Well, unless they are talking about what happens when all 6 CV groups are on top one an other, this makes no sense at all from software design perspective. The server moves planes around all the time. I guess CVs are too heavy for the servers to move :rofl
On a small map I can almost guarantee that would happen unless the CVs were blocked from grouping together.
On a large map, it would probably be alright (Ozkansas for example has 8 CVs per country).
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But a CV group isn't a single object like a plane, is it? Aren't all the gun emplacements, batteries, auto ack, radar, escorts, their ack, etc separate objects that have to be tracked and updated?
Yes dedalos, I know you'd have designed the game differently, but what matters here is how it is, not how it might have been otherwise. ;)
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Not to mention the fact that the server doesn't move the planes.
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I like the idea.
Hellcats for everyone!
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I think everyone is forgetting that the server has to move where the CV is, constantly. Not only where it is on the map and where it needs to go but your also forgetting the flight deck, flight deck spawn point, rearm pad, arresting wires, all the guns, vehicle and PT spawn point, and ship positions. That is just for one task group. That data also has to go out on every packet you get. That is every task group, every packet, every time. Your FE will slow down if it doesn't get the positions of every task group within visual range for your FE to render. Until it gets all the data, your FE will keep skipping a cycle. If the packet buffer length is exceeded by trying to update every task group in visual range of your FE you will run into FR slowdown big time.
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Originally posted by Iron_Cross
I think everyone is forgetting that the server has to move where the CV is, constantly. Not only where it is on the map and where it needs to go but your also forgetting the flight deck, flight deck spawn point, rearm pad, arresting wires, all the guns, vehicle and PT spawn point, and ship positions. That is just for one task group. That data also has to go out on every packet you get. That is every task group, every packet, every time. Your FE will slow down if it doesn't get the positions of every task group within visual range for your FE to render. Until it gets all the data, your FE will keep skipping a cycle. If the packet buffer length is exceeded by trying to update every task group in visual range of your FE you will run into FR slowdown big time.
Please stay away from software development. Its for the better :rofl
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
But a CV group isn't a single object like a plane, is it? Aren't all the gun emplacements, batteries, auto ack, radar, escorts, their ack, etc separate objects that have to be tracked and updated?
Yes dedalos, I know you'd have designed the game differently, but what matters here is how it is, not how it might have been otherwise. ;)
Thats not the point. There is no way that this is how it is. If it is it needs afixin. All the server needs to do is know the location of the CV. The rest are relative positions to the CV coordinates. Really all it needs to keep track of is 2 numbers. It already does do with 200 planes in the air and GVs on the ground.
The only one that can answer if it is possible and how it is done is HT not the players. I understand how the FEs may have an issue since all you have to do is look at the screen funny and the FPS goes down, but not the server. Check the AvA map and see how many CVs are there.
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I don't know about any one else, but I'm glad dedalos doesn't work on the HTC programmers team ! :D
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If the server only needed to know where the CV started and where it is going, nobody could discover where the CV is at correctly if they logged in between the time the CV waypoint was created and the end/time of change of the waypoint. If the server needs to know where the CV currently is and where it's headed, well...isn't that the problem? Needs to know where it currently is?
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Originally posted by OOZ662
If the server only needed to know where the CV started and where it is going, nobody could discover where the CV is at correctly if they logged in between the time the CV waypoint was created and the end/time of change of the waypoint. If the server needs to know where the CV currently is and where it's headed, well...isn't that the problem? Needs to know where it currently is?
Dedalos, this is what I'm talking about. The way you are thinking it works, can not work. Even if the task group was a single mesh,(witch it isn't) the server will still need to update the current location to all client machines with every packet.
You think I would make a bad game developer, Dedalos? I was coding up games when sprite graphics were the top of the line. You were probably pooping your diapers back then, if you were born at all. I've got 25 years experience writing programs, so don't tell me I'm making something out to be more complicated than it needs to be.
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edit :lol that's bad, even for me. not going to go there.
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There's also evidence in this constant updating being that the CV will be in many places for different people. This is what causes new planes to pop up in thin air off the deck; their front end is displaying the CV in a different location due to lag.
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I rather like the Idea of CV wars, mostly because on whole, the CV tends to just turn into a mobile base attack then gets sunk durring or soon after the base gets jumped if the attackers fail.
Id love to see mass TBM or SDB missions being supported by f4f's and f4u's but thats just because im a fan of running seaplanes.
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^^^ I like this idea a lot.
I would also like to see Val's running torpedoes at a carrier escort by zekes.
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Originally posted by Iron_Cross
Dedalos, this is what I'm talking about. The way you are thinking it works, can not work. Even if the task group was a single mesh,(witch it isn't) the server will still need to update the current location to all client machines with every packet.
ok, the problem is that I gave people too match credit I guess. Is that what you mean about updating? Keeping track of the coordinates? Updating an X and Y is too match for the server? Sending the update to the clients in every packet is just dumb. You send the initial location when a guy logs in, the way points, the way point changes, and then you may want to sync once in a while. The speed of the CV is constant right? Your FE knows its location speed and destination. You really think the server needs to send an update on every packet?
Now, lets assume that for some reason this server was designed by students and it does send updates on every packet for the CV. You understand that it does do that for the planes then too right? So, with your logic, the server can keep track and update locations and transmit information for lets say 200 planes but not for 200 plus 6 CVs?
Here is some more bad news for you. The server is sending information using multicast. It makes no difference if there is 1 client connected or 5,000. The server sends 1 packet and every one gets it. The problems you may see with location of CV for example is that UDP is not reliable and therefore a packet that contains information about its location could be lost. Eventually, the server will sync the position and the CV finds its right location. I think that kind of proves my point since if the server was sending an update on every packet about the position of the CVs you would never have this problem.
You think I would make a bad game developer, Dedalos? I was coding up games when sprite graphics were the top of the line. You were probably pooping your diapers back then, if you were born at all. I've got 25 years experience writing programs, so don't tell me I'm making something out to be more complicated than it needs to be.
What, you think you'd be the first clueless programmer with 20 years experience that I would have to send home? :rofl Sounds like you may have drawn some pretty pictures for a game. Don't confuse your self though. That has nothing to do with programing servers.
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Can't you two go measure noodlees somewhere else?
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Originally posted by Yknurd
Can't you two go measure noodlees somewhere else?
:D lol, the point is not who is right or wrong. Only HT could be right in this case. I see these things in the wish forum a lot. Some one asks for something and a bunch of clueless dolts show up to explain why it is impossible. Why? Why sit here and explain why something is impossible what you cant possibly know the answer. Its a wish. You either like it and you say so, you dont like it and you say so, or you STFU :D
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The CV's speed is not constant. It slows to varying speeds in different turns and will even stop if it reaches an area it cannot complete the desired turn. Also, during zigging turns, the ships fan out in many directions and vary their speeds trying to maintain distance from the flagship.
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Ok so design a map around the peace symbol with a small sea in the very center.
3 landmass's coming from the outside to the center. Each country owns one landmass with ports and cv's on both sides of it. Put 3 uncapturable fields and strat's in the outermost part of the landmass. lots of Vfields around the central part. A large airfield with port on each side in the center. And one port for the central sea.
So no more than 2 cv's can cluster for any one map location except center sea which could have 3.
Fester you interested in this I'll draw you a sketch of what I had thought of.
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Originally posted by dedalos
:D lol, the point is not who is right or wrong. Only HT could be right in this case. I see these things in the wish forum a lot. Some one asks for something and a bunch of clueless dolts show up to explain why it is impossible. Why? Why sit here and explain why something is impossible what you cant possibly know the answer. Its a wish. You either like it and you say so, you dont like it and you say so, or you STFU :D
And yet there you sit and tell everyone the way it could possibly be, or should be, with no clue if that's the way it is either. And you have the gall to do this AFTER a quote from HTC themselves about the limited number of CVs on a small map.
Seems to me you use a double standard and should take some of your own advice.
Now, the AvA and the MA are two entirely different arenas with a totally different set of rules for terrain creation. When an MA terrain is built there are a set of rules and guidelines that need to be followed that don't apply anywhere else. So, using the AvA, TA or any other arena is not a good comparison.
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Love all the nay-sayers who say what "can't" be done.
Isn't that up to HTC? I love the idea!! :p
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Originally posted by CAFghost
Love all the nay-sayers who say what "can't" be done.
Isn't that up to HTC? I love the idea!! :p
And just who do you think set up the rules and guidelines for MA terrain creation? The players? I don't think so.
Technically you could have up to 42 CVs per country. I wouldn't try it on an MA terrain, but it can be done.
And even more technically you might be able to have 84 CVs per country. But, I'm not sure how the game would respond to 84 CVs being tied to one port. And I wouldn't try that either.
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Originally posted by CAFghost
Love all the nay-sayers who say what "can't" be done.
Isn't that up to HTC? I love the idea!! :p
I tend to believe what NHAWK says about maps, after all he's built about half the maps we use. He has worked very closely with HTC in his efforts to get as much "stuff" in to the maps he builds. It won't surprise me to know that NHAWK has HTC on speed dial :D
Oh btw, Thanks NHAWK for all you do. If I had your talent for map building I'd sit back and run off half a dozen and submit them.... just to give Skuzzy something to do :t
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
It won't surprise me to know that NHAWK has HTC on speed dial :D
:rofl
You know me to well....HTC is 2 on speed dial. :)
1 is the local pizza shop, sorry HT... there are priorities.
You're welcome.
And, I keep Skuzzy plenty busy. :t
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Nhawk has made i think most of the player submitted maps orhas had a good input with advice on others.
If people took the time to do a search or to ask skuzzy you would find the rules for a main arena map and the reasons why these are in place.
I would love to see a island hopping map with gv bases and small to medium airfields to be captured from cv groups,but at the moment for the main arena this cannot be done.
If everyone was running top of the range computers with high speed connections then i doubt it would be a problem,but HTC has to cater for everyone
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Yes....
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Originally posted by NHawk
And yet there you sit and tell everyone the way it could possibly be, or should be, with no clue if that's the way it is either. And you have the gall to do this AFTER a quote from HTC themselves about the limited number of CVs on a small map.
Seems to me you use a double standard and should take some of your own advice.
Exactly, I am talking about how it could be done and how it may be possible. I don't know. Only HT does. I did not come inhere explaining why it could not be done. I know as match as the rest of the clueless idiots like you. The difference is, I talk about how it "could be" done to and gave an examples trying to convince the clueless like you. I don't claim to know that it is impossible. Cant see the difference, can ya?
Now, the AvA and the MA are two entirely different arenas with a totally different set of rules for terrain creation. When an MA terrain is built there are a set of rules and guidelines that need to be followed that don't apply anywhere else. So, using the AvA, TA or any other arena is not a good comparison.
The server knows nothing about rules. Do you think HT wrote two different versions of the server for the AvA and TA? It could be, but I would take the bet.
As I said. Its a wish. Tell them you dont like it or why you like it. Don't explain why it cant be done.
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A REALISTIC multiple CV map (like the "Slot" Solomans map) would be KILLER!
4 CV task groups for each side, plus divied up air bases in 1/3's.
No jets.
68ROX
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Originally posted by dedalos
....The server knows nothing about rules. Do you think HT wrote two different versions of the server for the AvA and TA? It could be, but I would take the bet.
As I said. Its a wish. Tell them you dont like it or why you like it. Don't explain why it cant be done.
Why not? I know what is and is not acceptable for an MA terrain.
And an all CV terrain is not acceptable at this time. Period, end of discussion.
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Originally posted by NHawk
Period, end of discussion.
:rofl Did u stamp your feet and make faces when u typed thatn? :rofl :noid