Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Tiger on August 21, 2007, 01:31:56 PM
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I'm without internet at the house while we move. Should be back up and playing this weekend. (been cruising the boards from work :) )
I'm normally a bufftard or the goon driver for a mission. When I need to hop in a fighter it's normally painted blue or has a meatball on the side.
The only german planes you ever catch me in are 88's, an occasional 87 for GV busting, or a 110 for buff busting.
I've decided I'd give those 109s and 190s a few test runs. Looking to see where to start and what to expect from those of you who fly them regularly.
I don't need a long drawn out analysis just some quick notes or tips
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190 general notes: 190s are excellent rollers. They won't out turn anything, though. Use the roll rate to scissors or other direction-changing manuvers instead of just pulling the stick into your belly. Good firepower and speed and poor turn usually mean you'll BNZ when first learning. Bad views (you get used to 'em). A-5 is best turner, but only barely. It's lightest so that makes it "feel" better too. D-9 has most power and is most competitive in LWA situation.
190As: Roll fast, dive great, good range, great firepower (gets better on A-8). Take the MG/FF on the A-5, and take something outboard on the A-8 (30mm are heavier than 20mm, remember). Climb not so great.
Gets 10 minutes WEP (same as 109 series), so use it to climb if you want to get to alt faster. See DokGonzo link in my sig for basic speed/climb info at different altitudes.
Don't try turn-fighting a 190A until you're more comfortable with it. At first, don't turn more than 45 degrees or so if you're BNZing. Fire the peashooters with your cannon. Don't bother "firing off" your peashooters -- they weigh almost nothing and it's better to just use them.
190D: Same as A, only less firepower (still plenty left, mind you) and more speed. Better top speed, acceleration, climb. Still don't want to turn fight this sucker. The speed and climb allows you to use vert more than the -As.
190F: Don't dogfight it. Seemingly more stable than the As when deep in the stall, but still doesn't turn very well and weighs the most of ALL 190 A/F/Ds. Extra armor means you will rarely lose oil, but you'll more likely get your butt shot off because it's heavier.
109 general notes: The 109s are decent turners. They are also great climbers and vertical planes. The earlier the model the better turner it is, but the weaker engine (the poorer vert-fighter) it has. G-2 is a good combo of power and agility. The later planes have amazing horsepower but worser turn performance (to be expected) so it depends if you want speed or turn radius. Keep in mind even the "worst" turning 109 is still a decent turn fighter. You won't be outturning spitfires at first, but you can still out turn other planes.
109E: Avoid it for now
109F-4: Slower, less power, climbs less, only 1 gun. Always take the 200 round option. Always fire MGs with cannon. Fire MGs further out to spook targets, to get range, to snipe. Fire cannon only when you have a sure hit. Don't be afraid to turn.
109G-2: One of the better climbers, faster than a G-6. Take 200 round option. Leave gondolas off unless you REALLY need them. They slow you down a lot, weigh you down a lot, and slow your climb a lot.
109G-6: Avoid it for now
109G-14/K-4: I lump these together because they are very close. The K-4 has more power up high (above 16k) but for most of the alts you'll fly at the K-4 is 20mph (or less) faster, but the G-14 turns slightly better. Both have a 30mm option. This gun will frustrate you if you're not used to it. I suggest the G-14 because it has a 20mm option to learn with. Only 150 rounds though. See gondolas commen on G-2.
IF you can kill with the 30mm, take it. It's a better gun despite its drawbacks. If you take the 30mm don't fire your MGs. Save your MGs and ONLY fire your MGs or ONLY fire your 30mm. The 13mms alone can get a kill or two, but you won't need them if you are close enough to land a 30mm hit, so better to save them. Also the 13mm hit sprites might confuse you at first, making you think you're landing cannon hits.
That, in a nutshell, is the 190/109 summary.
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I persomaly am VERY fond of the 109E-4 myself, I will let the pro's explain the specifics about it all I have to say is 3 words fun and perk farmer(40ENY)
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I'm also very fond of it (that's why I made so many skins for it!), but he's a mostly bomber guy moving to fighters (for the first time?) and it's really only going to lead to frustration if you start in the E-4.
Note the E-4 and G-6 are perfectly fine planes, but I said "don't bother" because in this case it seems like he's got a lot of learning to do, and they're not the best to learn in.
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ahhh true true
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Originally posted by Tiger
I don't need a long drawn out analysis just some quick notes or tips
With the 109s, your climb is your strength. Combat should be a series of loops and yo-yos. Use flaps at the top of the arc, don't be afraid to pull some Gs, retract them as you dive. Throttle back and dump flaps to get that last turn onto your enema's tail. Start with the F4, work your way around from there. Ask Eagler for advice on all 109 matters.
(I love the 109s. Flying the G6 well should be your ultimate goal.)
The FWs variants are very different planes from each other. The A8 and F-whatever are pigs. I have no useful advice, but I keep doing penance trying to find the light with the A8, because it was reasonably successful in real life. The A5 is the P-47 of the group, the Dora is the Typhoon look-alike. They have the same general qualities as their Allied counterparts, with the exception that the FWs, because of their roll rate, can very effectively yo-yo their way through perhaps two tight turns before they run out of energy. Use their plentiful guns during this period, or dive away and pray.
Hope this helps.
- oldman
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No advice on 109's as I don't fly them enough but relative to 190's:
190A-5 - Best turner of the group, lightest and most nimble and packs a punch if you load out all 4 cannons.
190A-8 - Heaviest of the group but packs the biggest punch with 2x30mm, 2x20mm cannons and 2x13 (?) mm machine guns. Great for buff hunting and a decent fighter.
190D-9 - Fastest of the group. Among the fastest in the arena. Purely a B'n'Zer. Lightest gun package with only 2x20mm cannons plus machine guns but they are plenty for taking out fighters.
190F-8 - Best ground attack fighter in the group. Performance is similar to the A-8 so it makes a decent fighter as well.
Ta-152H - Slowest of the group at low to mid alts but among the fastest in the arenas over 20K. 1x30mm plus 2x20mm make it a good high alt hunter. Max dive speed is ~100 mph lower than the other 190's but it will glide forever (which is good as the radiator is prone to damage).
Common charachteristics: Great dive speed (500 ias+) without compression, poor climb rates but zoom climb is good, best roll rates of any plane, poor turn rates but can change direction quickly by using roll rate with gentle turns.
How to fight: Start fast, preferably with alt. Look to B'n'Z. You can turn to get shots but do not turn more than about 540 degrees total during your engagement and pull gently on the stick when doing so. Never let the stall buzzer sound. Once you've turned the maximum amount exit in a zoom climb for alt then repeat. You need ~3-3.5K seperation to reverse on someone chasing you. Use nose low turns (split-s/low yo-yo, etc.) whenever possible to conserve speed. Avoid looping manouvers.
Best defenses: Speed. Lacking speed use a flat or rolling scissors.
IMHO one of the best familys of fighters in the game if you get to know them.
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F-8 is significantly heavier than the A-8, just FYI. It can dogfight in a pinch, but it suffers from armor plating weight.
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Well said Baldeagl.
I'm not a pro in the 190, but I really like the A5 alot. While the D9 is the better plane, I suppose, I prefer the A5 for dogfighting.
I find I have much better luck if I start with a decent amount of altitude. I don't take one up unless I know I can get 8 or 10k at least before the fight. I even go higher if I have time. You can't really turn fight on the deck, everyone knows you have one of the worst turn fighters in the game, so once you give up your speed you're quickly running out of options.
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I dunno, I was bounced by a p51 (I was 8k, he was 15k) and did pretty well once. Kicked myself repeatedly for not filming it. He came down, zoomed up to reposition (if you can picture what i mean). I knew he would. So I dove down when he went up, and zoomed up when he rolled down on me, meeting him almost on even footing. Did this several times until I wore him down (traded alt for speed) and finally ended up on the deck. I think I finished him off with a rolling scissors or two. It was an intense fight.
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I'll assume you don't do alot of turning and don't know when to pop flaps, retard throttle, etc. so I'm going to suggest you start with the 190a8 with gondola cannons. Don't bother trying to turnfight. Just get above your prey and dive into them. To win, just point and shoot. You'll smash anything in front of you. If they move out of the way, just hit WEP, pull up, and go around for another run.
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Small clarification:
109s have gondolas (drag inducing tubs under the wings) with guns in them. 190s have the guns directly inside the wing. They still weigh more, but they aren't gondolas, and don't increase the drag like on 109s.
Other than that, proabably a good suggestion.
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Do the gondolas really produce enough drag to produce a notable difference in performance?
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On Me109s? Hell yes!
On Fw190s? They weigh you down but don't slow you down. Your turn performance is hurt, as is climb, but below 15k you won't notice it as much as when at 20k+
IMO on FW190s it's worth it most of the time to take the extra outboard guns, despite their extra weight.
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Originally posted by DoNKeY
Do the gondolas really produce enough drag to produce a notable difference in performance?
Oh fraking hells yeah! go ahead and take a 109 and fly her clean then take the gondies and feel the neutered goodness. I rarely take them because they detract from most of what makes the 109 great. With the 109 learning to aim and kill what you are aiming at with the least ammount of ammo is the key.
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No reason for him to stay away from the G6 Krusty...
Its difficulty makes it a good learning platform for the K4.
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Baby steps, my banana-like-friend :D
First the "easy" models, then the "harder" models ;)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Baby steps, my banana-like-friend :D
First the "easy" models, then the "harder" models ;)
On the other hand, learning the G6 makes the others seem like child's play. Probably depends on how inured you are to getting clobbered repeatedly while you learn a new trick.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Krusty
Baby steps, my banana-like-friend :D
First the "easy" models, then the "harder" models ;)
As OM stated...
There is no better way of learning than learning the difficult first...
If he learns the difficult first the g2's and F4's will feel like S16's :aok
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hey platano, what is kermit humping in your avtar? It is so small I can not tel. :lol
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Someones Mom.
:lol
Might be yours :p
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I hardly ever fly a 190 so I'll stick the 109. The key to life in a 109 is keep it fast. Most models are decent turners, but a lot of the fighters you will run into in the arenas are better (spits, hurri's, anything japanese). So use speed and acceleration to your advantage. It does have good flaps, but use sparingly or to escape bad situations, remember try and keep it fast. Of course the best advice I can give is to practice with them. Fly them in the TA arena for a while and see how others more experienced with them fly them. I love the 109's, especially the F and G2 model.
Later
Pat Kunz
BigRat
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use flaps sparingly???
:huh :confused:
as you said you will run into better turners most of the time..
and the flaps only deploy if your going less than 200 TAS...
you'll need all the turning you can get...
use em whenever you can..
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of the 109's what is the best suited for dog fighting, if any ?
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they all rock in dogfight...pick your poison and stick with it. 30mm may take some time to get use to. It took me about a month of utter frustration...then wham!!! Stuff was just going BOOOOMMMM! Dont shoot till 200...best advice I can give. Dont be afraid to chop throttle and dump flaps...109 slows down nice to force overshoot.
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with the 109, whats the ideal convergence ?
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I can't believe it, but the 190a5 is rapidly becoming my favorite plane in the game.
It feels so nimble, and doesn't have the elevator problems of the 109 at high speed. Tons of cannon rounds so you can spray em out there on low percentage shots.
The roll, though, is what has me sold. You can change direction instantaneously. I don't know that I've mastered that at all, but I definately miss it when I don't have it.
Try as I might, I really don't fly the 109 well. I can hang in it, but against anyone who knows what they're doing I'm gonna be toast.