Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Bolo6 on August 22, 2007, 11:20:46 AM
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This post is copied and reposted by polular demand.
Ok last night some of you may have witnessed a convo on country channel between myself and several other players. It started with my defense of Mike Vick and by the time it ended I was a 'Pro muslim extremist'. Not really but close. I forget who it was but there was a flyer that condems the torture of dogs by Mike Vick yet endorses the torture of humans in Gitmo. This is disturbing to me. Some also typed that Islam is a religion of hate and violence. I was blasted by several players for refuting this ignorant statement. I know the AH skies are filled with Ex military guys, but I think it is short on religious scholars. Skinard actually claimed to know the whole Qu'ran and still claimed the religion is one of violence. This is like saying the looney catholics that shoot abotion doctors make Christianity a religion of hate. I say think about this. What if the state of Texas was taken over by a bunch of people who wished only to exploit it? Would the good citizens of Dallas or Houston stand by while their country was ravaged? Would the lifelong members of the military stand idly by? No, they would become what we now call insurgents. Please consider that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Try to see things from more than just an American point of view. For the record, I am also an ex mil man, having been honorably discharged from the Army. Served in a combat infantry unit some of you may have heard of, 82nd ABN, 3/504 PIR commanded by then Big Bird Col. David Petreaus. I am not anti american, I am a citizen that believes our behavior over the last several years on the world stage has been anti American and pro corporation. Alot of people have made alot of money off of this war and it isn't me or anyone replying to this post. I wish not to offend any ardent patriots out there, I only wish to refute the ignorance that I saw and experienced. This may make me an unpopular guy, but doing and saying the right thing can do that sometimes. See history on Ghandi and Dr. King. That is all for now. I look forward to the replies.
Bolo6 Actual, out.
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I'm not going to get into a whole big thing here but I do have one question for you. Why would you defend Vick??? He's already said he's guilty. The only reason he coped the plea he did was because the prosecuters were getting ready to dump a few more federal charges on him.
Real simple here. He broke the law. He got caught. He admitted his guilt. He's going to jail. He's a piece of trash.
I don't live to far away from where he grew up. He got out of the hood and had a chance to make something of himself, but he chose to continue living the life of a gangsta and figured that because he has money now and is a football star he could get away with it. Look at the people he hangs around with. All of his co-defendants had police records a mile long.
This is someone who is supposed to be a role model. The truth though is he is nothing but a punk thug. I hope the judge throws the book at him and the NFL better ban his sorry bellybutton for life.
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"the torture of humans in Gitmo"
please define the torture of humans in Gitmo.
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There is so much anger in your reply. What did he ever do to you? I am not defending his actions at all, they are and were criminal. He will do his time. He surrounded himself with disloyal hooligans. But you did not address why the FBI found it necessary to investigate him. As far as how he grew up, I cant say but I know the area and they don't call it bad news for nothing. Ban him for life? What he did has nothing to do with his football playing and as far as role models, that job belongs to parents.
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Originally posted by john9001
"the torture of humans in Gitmo"
please define the torture of humans in Gitmo.
one word. Rendition. Would you want it to happen to you or anyone you love?
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I agree that athletes and movie stars should not be role models.
As far as the "ban for life" that can happen because of his gambling on the fights. The NFL has some obscure little known about policy making any illegal gambling a lifetime banable offense.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
one word. Rendition. Would you want it to happen to you or anyone you love?
If myself or someone I loved was a terrorist, we'd probably know what we were getting into and expect such consequences.
Now think about it this way... if this so called 'torture' got information that prevented a group of terrorists from flying a plane into YOUR house, would you still think it was a bad policy?
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If you know about interrogation you know that anyone can be made to say anything. The inquisition was very much the same. The situation at Gitmo has created far more terrorist than it has found. Lets hope that one day the label of terrorist is not placed on you or I.
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Originally posted by Tiger
If myself or someone I loved was a terrorist, we'd probably know what we were getting into and expect such consequences.
Now think about it this way... if this so called 'torture' got information that prevented a group of terrorists from flying a plane into YOUR house, would you still think it was a bad policy?
Just to be clear you are condoning the torture of Human beings as a means to an end?
Would your opinion be affected if the people being tortured weren't brown?
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Some also typed that Islam is a religion of hate and violence. I was blasted by several players for refuting this ignorant statement.
If its not, then WHY have the leaders of Islam around the world not spoken out against Al Queda, Hamas, etc? Its a barbaric religion that is used to keep its people in the Dark Ages.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
But you did not address why the FBI found it necessary to investigate him.
Maybe because he committed a federal crime?
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First things first, Vick got what he had coming to him. IMO he should never be allowed to play pro ball ever. I'm sorry but dogfights and cockfights should have been left back in the 19th century. There is simply no place for them in todays civilization. He did the crime, he admitted his guilt, hang him high. In that respect public figures are expected to be role models. He should have held himself to a higher standard.
Next, about religion and violence. You think the Catholic extremists in Northern Ireland didn't give their religion a bad name? Same with the Muslim extremists now.
The problem with the fundamental Islamic groups is that they are all calling for the destruction of OUR country. To me thats no different than a man standing across the street swearing he's going to burn my house down. OK you got my attention, you may not enjoy what I do to get rid of you and your threat, but YOU started with the threats. In this case, they did bring the house down, well the WTC anyway. So if bad things happen to them, they had it coming.
Traditional Islam says its a religion of peace, yet entire country's were converted by the sword. Convert or die, right here, right now. Not that I'm saying Christianity was much better, because it wasn't. But the vast majority of those killed by the Christians happened back in the middle ages. Islamic terrorist groups are active now, and they will continue to try to pull down our house.
Now, If I heard on CNN once a week that traditional Islam groups, scholars, etc are not supporting the radical elements. That they are NOT being sheltered by normal people of this faith, that would make a difference.
However I have seen no proof that 9 out of 10 people of that faith deplore and denounce what the extremists are doing.
And no I'm not a religious scholar, but anyone who takes their side in this is
stepping mighty close to the edge of treason and worse.
I will agree that that this country has gone to the multinational corporations.
And that this is going to have far reaching impacts in our lives for decades.
But on the other 2 issues I think you should rethink your stance.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Ban him for life? What he did has nothing to do with his football playing and as far as role models, that job belongs to parents.
Yes, ban him for life.
The NFL is a business and any smart business person would not want their image tarnished by the likes of Vick.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
If you know about interrogation you know that anyone can be made to say anything.
And if you knew anything about interrogation you know that "stress and duress"-methods are very useful, they work, and they are used alot.
"Stress and duress"-methods are considered torture by Amnesty, HRW and the rest of that ilk.
The inquisition was very much the same.
Not really no. Unless of cource you are of the opinion that "sitting uncomfortably in a cold room" or "having a female interrogator sitting in your lap" is the same as "getting poked with red hot iron" or "being locked into a barrel with spikes pointing inwards and then rolled down a hill".
Your hyperbole makes it very hard to take you seriously. Consider that in the future.
The situation at Gitmo has created far more terrorist than it has found.[/B]
Ridiculous statement completely grabbed out of thin air.
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Comparing gitmo to dog fighting is like comparing apples to sardines. How many prisoners at gitmo were forced to fight to the death as a means of entertainment for the handlers? How many were forced to fight to the death as a means of wagering? How many were bred and raised at gitmo tfor the purpose of fighting to the death?
Don't like "torture", fine. At least use a valid comparison here. These 2 examples don't fit the bill.
A more valid comparison might be the raising and training of young children to be suicide bombers by their parents and religious leaders.
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Ghosth,
I appreciate your reply. The Vick situation, I concede.
Fundamental Islamic groups are a minority. Doing the things that we are doing only bolsters their ranks. As far as 9/11, we were asleep at the wheel. No less than three opportunities existed for us to avert that disaster. There is a book called "The Man who Warned America" by Murray Weiss. Check it out. I see it like this, you dont get mad at the dog for crapping in your yard, it is what dogs do. You don't let dog get into your yard.
As far as what we hear on CNN, I take it with a grain of salt. There is no way we know what the average muslim is thinking anymore than they know what we are thinking. I bet its alot of the same things however. Food, shelter and education for our kids. The answer to this problem is dialouge. How many muslims do you know personally that you have discussed this with? Do you care enough about it to do that? you will only find out what 9 out of 10 muslims think if you talk to 9 out of 10 muslims.
Why is it that whenever someone takes a different look at this debate, that are labeled treasonous or anti american? We were founded on the values of dissent and disscussion. I love this country despite the fact that it has never treated my people with the dignity and respect that they deserve, But that is a different topic.
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Not really no. Unless of cource you are of the opinion that "sitting uncomfortably in a cold room" or "having a female interrogator sitting in your lap" is the same as "getting poked with red hot iron" or "being locked into a barrel with spikes pointing inwards and then rolled down a hill".
Do you really think this was the extent of it? Isn't the idea of torture itself anti american? You are making distinctions about torture techniques. I think that is very closed minded. Would you want you or any of you loved ones questioned using "stress and duress techniques?
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Not really no. Unless of cource you are of the opinion that "sitting uncomfortably in a cold room" or "having a female interrogator sitting in your lap" is the same as "getting poked with red hot iron" or "being locked into a barrel with spikes pointing inwards and then rolled down a hill".
Do you really think this was the extent of it? Isn't the idea of torture itself anti american? You are making distinctions about torture techniques. I think that is very closed minded. Would you want you or any of you loved ones questioned using "stress and duress techniques?
Stress and duress techniques as you are using the terms have been accepted means of gaining information for citizens accused of crimes in this country. Depending on who's definition you want to use, merely raising your voice is considered stress and refusing to allow a person to smoke in a confined room can be considered duress. A considerable number of interrogation techniques would be labeled as "torture" by folks who have a specific agenda, that does not make it true however.
If you want to discuss it you would do well to be specific. Generalities are a waste of time.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Do you really think this was the extent of it?
At gitmo? Yes.
Isn't the idea of torture itself anti american?
LOL no.
You are making distinctions about torture techniques. I think that is very closed minded.
Actually no, I am saying that certain stuff is not really torture at all...except in the minds of various hysterical loonies like HRW or amnesty-members.
Can you really consider having a female sitting in your lap while questioning you torture? Or to be forced to sit in a cold room for 20 hours...is that torture? Its ridiculous, and it waters down the meaning of the word "torture" to mean exactly nothing, or everything.
Would you want you or any of you loved ones questioned using "stress and duress techniques?
If they were in the business of training, arming or funding suicide bombers targeting women and children, yes. Stress and duress is not lethal, its not even considered grave bodily harm.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Stress and duress techniques as you are using the terms have been accepted means of gaining information for citizens accused of crimes in this country. Depending on who's definition you want to use, merely raising your voice is considered stress and refusing to allow a person to smoke in a confined room can be considered duress. A considerable number of interrogation techniques would be labeled as "torture" by folks who have a specific agenda, that does not make it true however.
If you want to discuss it you would do well to be specific. Generalities are a waste of time.
A comparison of police interrogations where suspect have rights such as Miranda and the secret going on in Gitmo where detainees have NO RIGHTS, not even under the Geneva convention, is way off base. I you wish to discuss it, you would do well to compare two like situations.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
you will only find out what 9 out of 10 muslims think if you talk to 9 out of 10 muslims.
And the Koran says never speak the truth to an infidel. So how do we [the infidels] know when the 9 we are are talking to is telling us the truth?
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Hortlund how much time have you spent interrogating detainess at gitmo?
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Originally posted by Tango
And the Koran says never speak the truth to an infidel. So how do we [the infidels] know when the 9 we are are talking to is telling us the truth?
Please tell me what sura it says this so I can read the verse for myself.Where did u get this information?
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Hortlund how much time have you spent interrogating detainess at gitmo?
About the same amount of time that you actually made sense in this thread.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
A comparison of police interrogations where suspect have rights such as Miranda and the secret going on in Gitmo where detainees have NO RIGHTS, not even under the Geneva convention, is way off base. I you wish to discuss it, you would do well to compare two like situations.
You raised the comparison here in the thread. As already noted earlier, the original comparison is not valid. You then brought up a secondary comparison yet refuse to define your parameters, particularly in regards to the term "torture" as well as "stress" and "duress".
Once you have done that there is room to discuss it. Until then all you have are undefined generalities being discusssed as specifics.
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So that means you weren't there yet you profess to know what is going on there. How can you? You are talking put of your but.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
I love this country despite the fact that it has never treated my people with the dignity and respect that they deserve, But that is a different topic.
what is "My People". Somehow that seems out of place, you're an american? but you have "people"
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Originally posted by Bolo6
So that means you weren't there yet you profess to know what is going on there. How can you? You are talking put of your but.
This is so dumb I dont even know where to begin.
Have you been at Guantanamo interrogating prisoners?
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I never said that I was or indicated anything to that point.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Where did u get this information?
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18733
The Koran, by contrast, teaches that it’s OK to lie to infidels if it furthers the cause of Islam, that nation states have no legitimacy, that the only legitimate nation is the nation of Islam, which has no territorial boundaries; and those who do not submit to the will of Allah should be condemned to a life of dhimmitude (second class citizenry).
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Originally posted by Bolo6
I never said that I was or indicated anything to that point.
Could have fooled me, you have made lots of claims or innuendo about what goes on at Guantanamo.
Anyway, your position seems to have degenerated into some sort of...I dont know what exactly. You are all over the place with miranda rights, torture being "un-american" and on top of that you seem completely unable to understand that just because you think having a female sitting on your lap constitutes torture, not everyone agrees with that definition.
Further discussion seems pointless, but if you think you can present a coherent argument, Im all ears.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
So that means you weren't there yet you profess to know what is going on there. How can you? You are talking put of your but.
Originally posted by Hortlund
This is so dumb I dont even know where to begin.
Have you been at Guantanamo interrogating prisoners?
Originally posted by Bolo6
I never said that I was or indicated anything to that point.
So does this mean that you are talking out of your butt as well when you make assumptions that more than what was stated happened at Gitmo actually happened?
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Originally posted by Donzo
So does this mean that you are talking out of your butt as well when you make assumptions that more than what was stated happened at Gitmo actually happened?
No, we're infidels and he is doing what the Koran commands him to do.
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Originally posted by Tango
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18733
The Koran, by contrast, teaches that it’s OK to lie to infidels if it furthers the cause of Islam, that nation states have no legitimacy, that the only legitimate nation is the nation of Islam, which has no territorial boundaries; and those who do not submit to the will of Allah should be condemned to a life of dhimmitude (second class citizenry).
I cant take this seriously. You are citing a source that is anything but objective and scholarly. I asked you to tell me the sura that tells muslims to lie to infidels but you can't because you have not read the Qu'ran. you are taking the word of a woman who has a political agenda. Do the research your self. Don't just take some elses word for it. There is an ancient Egyptian proverb that says 'those who don't know, but beleive that they know are dangerous. Avoid them'. I have alot of avoiding to do.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
I 'those who don't know, but beleive that they know are dangerous. Avoid them'.
you have condemned yourself, guards, take him away.
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Bolo6, you may not understand or want to know the truth, but your statement that “He surrounded himself with disloyal hooligans.” Disloyal because they didn’t lie for Vic?
The FBI did not find it necessary to investigate Vic. But rather an on going FBI investigation into the trafficking of Dog across State lines for the purpose of Dog Fights and gambling was already underway, Vic and his hooligans just happened to stumble into the area of investigation.
Vic is a bad guy, his only regret is that he got caught. Dog Fighting is illegal gaming as such the NFL has no choice but to ban him for life.
As for Muslims and the latest religious war. All Muslims can all drop dead for all I care. And let me be clear, that's every man, women and child. I don’t trust any of them. I have not found a way to know which Muslim is not a terrorist. That may seem harsh, but I was in the World Trade Center on 9/11.
The last attempted bombing in Great Britain was a group of Muslim Doctors, men that took an oath to save lives. Men that were treating patients in a hospital one minute and planting bombs across London to kill and injure the next. The planes on 9/11 were flown by Muslim radicals , but Doctors are well educated, rational, thinking men. That spoke volumes to me, and it should to you. Muslims want me, my wife, my family, you and your family dead, they want every American dead. They want every man, women and child that is not Muslim dead. What part of that don't you understand?
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A chick sitting in my lap is torture?
And here I've been paying $20.00 for it all these years.
Bolo, as been already stated, you really need to define "torture".
I once was arrested in St. Louis and taken to the City Lockup. I spent the night in City Jail where the temp. dropped to @ 50 degrees and I only had a T-shirt-shirt on. Spent the night shivering and freezing' my tookus off. I also was not fed for @ 24 hours. AND to top it off they put me in a cell w/ a guy extradited from Calif. on murder charges. (ended up being a nice guy. we played checkers w/ the trash found in the cell)
According to your definition of the word, I was tortured by the St. Louis City Police Department.
What a load of malarkey. That night DID indeed suck, but "torture"?
You need a better understanding of the term "torture".
I had worse things happen to me during hazing for a fraternity in college than what happened to the detainees at Gitmo. (MUUUUCH WORSE)
I find the whole thing quite pathetic. The people screaming about how we tortured people @ gitmo are morons. The Muslims especially I feel are hypocrites.
Compare the "torture" @ Gitmo to the torture of an American soldier captured by terrorist. Which would you would rather have happen to you.
1. Sitting in a room naked w/ a lady on your lap
2. Getting your head slowly sawed off with a knife after being violently beaten for a couple of days.
What you SHOULD be doing is posting on a Muslim forum and berating them for their actions. At least that would have some validity.
Personally, I am a "fight fire with fire" person, and I feel we coddle the enemy in the "war on terror" far, FAR too much. They are like animals, and should be treated as such. (cowardly dogs too I might add)
The Muslims are like a moron that runs up and shoves you over and over, and you are expected to take it because you are larger and stronger. When you finally get sick of it and smack 'em in the mouth, they go running off screaming and crying and acting like the victim.
The Muslims have two sets of rules/standards.
One for them, and one for us.
I hope they do not pull off another WTC 9/11 type of attack in the U.S. for their own sakes. You thought the U.S. was pissed off after 9/11? (shudder) I almost (ALMOST) feel sorry for the Muslims people as a whole if another terrorist act of large scale happens on U.S. soil.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
I cant take this seriously. You are citing a source that is anything but objective and scholarly. I asked you to tell me the sura that tells muslims to lie to infidels but you can't because you have not read the Qu'ran. you are taking the word of a woman who has a political agenda. Do the research your self. Don't just take some elses word for it. There is an ancient Egyptian proverb that says 'those who don't know, but beleive that they know are dangerous. Avoid them'. I have alot of avoiding to do.
I take her word far better than I would a Muslim's. Afterall we [the infidels] never know when we're hearing the truth from a Muslim.
I guess you dispute that the Koran wants you to kill infidels as well?
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Why do people here refer to Musilms as "Musilms"?
Just call them heathens.
They call us infidels...it's only fair.
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Because no one wants to upset the heath... Muslims....they might start burning stuff...
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Just a couple of excerpts from the Koran and Islamic teachings.
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship will become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. Sura 5:51
A different translation says
[5:51] O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.
Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. Sura 9:73
Again a different translation
[9:73] O you prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern in dealing with them. Their destiny is Hell; what a miserable abode!
Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His apostle have forbidden and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. Sura 9:29
Alternate translation
[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.
Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Sura 48:29
Aldernate translation
[48:29] Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises those among them who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense.
The Hadith(Muslim oral tradition) states:]
"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"
Sources
http://submission.org/
http://www.craom.net/comparedtothebible.htm
http://www.pmw.org.il/specrep-37.html
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Originally posted by Traveler
snips....
That may seem harsh, but I was in the World Trade Center on 9/11.
That spoke volumes to me, and it should to you.
WOW Traveler....didn't know that first part.
In regards to the 2nd part here , after reading all that this Bolo character has written here and other places , I get the feeling he may be a bit biased and on the side of , lets say , the not so trust worthy people.
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Sounds like another poster here who gets his direction from wife ack from the region in question.
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I love most of the replys. Most. Dichotomy, I will check your post for accuracy this evening and reply tomorrow. However I will not that none of your sources are the Qu'ran itself, only internet sites that appear to be biased.(i.e croam.net/comparedtothebible.htm)
And WMLute while I respect your opinion, I will venture to say that the time you spent in lockup is far different than what a victim of rendition might have experienced. Or jose Padilla for that matter. Remember him? An American citizen locked up without charges for over three years, denied access to counsel and other constitutional violations. No where in any of my posts have I said anything remotely anti american but I am labeled that suggestively in several of the replies. Because I disagree with what is going on, I am all of these things. The fact that I am the only one in opposition on these boards indicates to me that I may be on the right track. To be clear, I do not condone or defend the actions of Islamic extremist. Nor however do I condone the actions of our country, our leaders using our values to push a private agenda. Have we all forgotten that there were no WMD? That Bin Laden and Saddam had no connection, that they even disliked each other. That while we have spun our wheels and wasted resources in Iraq, Al quaeda has regained strength in the tribal regions of Pakistan and Afghanistan? Not to mention the fact that our leader Mr. Bush told us over three years ago that "Mission Accomplished"
No one in any of these replies has even questioned the fact that our foreign policy has alot to do with the way people feel towards us. The answer to the problems we face is not the annihilation of all muslims and all muslims don't want to kill us.
As for travelers comment
"All Muslims can all drop dead for all I care. And let me be clear, that's every man, women and child."
Do any of you justify this? Isn't this exactly what they{the extremists} think about us? This post is definitely in the wrong place. I think some of you play AHII on your off time from the KKK or Aryan Nation. That is what it sounds like from some of the replies. I seek not to change opinons only to challenge minds to seek for themselves what they so readily take from others.
PS Vicks buddies are disloyal hooligans because they snitched. They can take pleas if they want but to testify against a person who you asked to front money for you is gross and dishonorable. They were supposed to take their punishment without giving him up. But I guess that only happens in the movies.
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Wow.
I have to give it to you Bolo, how someone can go from Vick to the whole Islamic extremist, torture, Iraq war thing is beyond me and is amazing! But you managed to wrap it all up by coming back around to Vick:
Originally posted by Bolo6
PS Vicks buddies are disloyal hooligans because they snitched. They can take pleas if they want but to testify against a person who you asked to front money for you is gross and dishonorable. They were supposed to take their punishment without giving him up. But I guess that only happens in the movies.
Vick was asked to front money for these guys? Says who? Them?
Do you honestly believe that fronting money was Vick's only involvement with this? I mean, really, do you?
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I love most of the replys. Most. Dichotomy, I will check your post for accuracy this evening and reply tomorrow. However I will not that none of your sources are the Qu'ran itself, only internet sites that appear to be biased.
--You've posted naught but opinion, and have dismissed out of hand, all responses, even those with links to credible news sources, with no argument whatsoever. This is what we call a liberal troll on certain other bbs's. Jose Padilla tried to aid our avowed enemy in killing scores of Amuuricans, and has been tried and sentenced to heap much prison time. Vick committed a felony, and will probably spend a few months with a collar on his ankle, and miss a season making millions a year. I would gladly trade places with him..... and if I was going to ask a girl on a date, I'd TELL her I had Herpes before I gave her something she would be afflicted with the rest of her life---had that girl been a friend of mine, I'd have hunted him down and killed him:t
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Originally posted by Bolo6
I love most of the replys. Most. Dichotomy,
Bolo I researched it fairly carefully but if there are flaws in it please enlighten me.
If that is truly the Islamic faith then I can only see years of strife and hardship on both sides of the issues. I'm not going to convert to a religion that I don't believe in. Subsequently from what I've read and researched it is the duty of a true muslim to kill me and my family if they refuse to convert. We wont. And if Islam is your faith then one of us would have to eliminate the other. You for your faith and me because I'm kind of fond of being alive and free.
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:confused: (looks around)
Now where did I leave my sheet and Jack boots.....Dangit...
Bolo...dont you ever even speak the words KKK or Aryan in the same breath as my name.
ever
Not saying you did mine specifcally....but you implied alot of us.
Vick's guilty...get over it.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but all the terrorists have been muslims.
edited the rest......I'll just leave you to your own self indulgence.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
I think some of you play AHII on your off time from the KKK or Aryan Nation. That is what it sounds like from some of the replies.
How can you say that? Do you know the color of my skin or any of the others posting in this thread? Calling a black man a member of the KKK or a Nazi isn't a good way of making friends sir.
But then again your a Muslim and you don't want to make friends with infidels, right?
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Gee, Redtop, I thought that was a really good reply, personally :)
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Originally posted by Vudak
Gee, Redtop, I thought that was a really good reply, personally :)
:aok ty...but it was gonna fall on deaf ears...and at my age...I really just shouldn't bother.
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Interesting how being beaten for days, or having a baton shoved up your arse isn't torture...(although I suppose that thats just a normal saturday night at some fraternity)
Tronsky
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Originally posted by -tronski-
Interesting how being beaten for days, or having a baton shoved up your arse isn't torture...(although I suppose that thats just a normal saturday night at some fraternity)
Tronsky
Did you pledge Sigma Phi Epsilon too?
(we supposed to keep the "rituals" secret tronski....)
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Originally posted by -tronski-
Interesting how being beaten for days, or having a baton shoved up your arse isn't torture...(although I suppose that thats just a normal saturday night at some fraternity)
Tronsky
Sounds like the kinds of entertainment alternative lifestyle followers here in San Francisco pay others to do to them on weekends..............
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The dogs were innocent. Theres the difference. And about the only difference.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Some also typed that Islam is a religion of hate and violence.
Whew. This is impossible to discuss in the manner we have on the bulletin board.
Even so, the "aims" of the Mohammedan and the Christain differ. The quickest and easiest way appreciate the differences is to regard the 1st 300 years or so of each religion.
It's worth the time and effort to read and reflect.
An accurate description of Islam: In matters political, Islam is a system of despotism at home and aggression abroad. The Prophet commanded absolute submission to the imâm. In no case was the sword to be raised against him. The rights of non-Moslem subjects are of the vaguest and most limited kind, and a religious war is a sacred duty whenever there is a chance of success against the "Infidel". Medieval and modern Mohammedan, especially Turkish, persecutions of both Jews and Christians are perhaps the best illustration of this fanatical religious and political spirit.
Now, contrast those aims with the pivotal moment of Christianity. Christ's crucifixion. Where the final word was a plea for forgiveness.
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A quick point about what a religion "teaches"
What a religion teaches, is not based on what certain groups within that religion says, it's based on what the supporting documents for that religion teach.
What I mean is this, the Bible teaches adultery is wrong. I don't care how you slice it, I would be happy to debate anyone on the issue, the Bible "teaches" that adultery is wrong. So, some could deny this point, every church could stop teaching it's wrong, but in the end, the Bible still "teaches" it's wrong, regardless of how many "Christian" adulterers there might be or how accepted adultery might become.
Now, I freely admit I have not read the Koran, so I cannot speak to what Islam teaches, but I can say this. It's not about what moderate, or fundamentalist say, it's about what the Koran "teaches".
The point being, we should not confuse the actions of a group within a religion with the teachings of the supporting documents. If (and again, I don't know) the Koran "teaches" that all Jews should be killed, along with other infidels for example, then it is a religion of "hatred and violence". If on the other hand, it teaches, that you should love your enemies, and be kind to those that spitefully use you, then the "religion" doesn't teach hate and violence, regardless of how some in that "religion" behave.
Finally, what the supporting documentation teaches, is not based on a single verse, but what it teaches as a whole. There are a whole set of "rules" and principles involved in the proper interpretation of the Bible. (Though I have not read the Koran, I have spent vast amounts of time reading the Bible over the last twenty years of my life) If those are followed, "Most" people can arrive at similar positions, even on rather obscure or difficult issues; and most of the time when they don't, it's because they have an agenda.
So, I've said all that, to say this. It should not be that difficult to determine what Islam (the Koran) teaches concerning the Jews and the infidels. It just takes some time to do so. Whether it teaches, peace and harmony, or hatred and violence, or something in the middle, how people act, or what they say is irrelevant, what it teaches it teaches. (The same is true about the Bible, or what ever other religion you wish to address.)
Best regards,
--Tachus
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Tachus, I could not have said it better. What a lively thread. And Redtop, please take no more offense than I took at the insinuation that I am a traitor. I am sure that this thread has put me on a lot of bad lists, ah well. The last post by Tachus really sums up what I have been trying to say all along. And contrary to popular belief, I am not muslim, nor do I follow any particular religion for that matter. I am just a man trying to figure out this crazy world and make it better for my children. I would love to meet some of you guys and have this discussion over a few brews and BBQ, wouldn't that be interesting. I think this thread is about exhausted so I'll see you guys in the air. Kill me if you can catch me. :lol
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The problem for you Bolo, is that the Koran actually tells moslems to kill infidels, lie and deciet, treat their women like slaves, and generally encourages all moslems to act like *******s to everyone not-moslem.
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Hortlund, please quote for me from the Qu'ran where these instructions are written, I will read them for myself and then I will condem the entire religion as well. I think I will not find these things however because I don't beleive it is true. Truth be told, and this is according to Dr Havva Housmand, professor of religious studies, historically Christians have persecuted Jews far worse than Muslims. In fact, Christians and Jews are not considered infidels because they are a "people of the Book" Your facts are simply wrong sir.
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I believe I already did that for you.
http://www.searchtruth.com appears to be a pretty good source of info as well.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Truth be told, and this is according to Dr Havva Housmand, professor of religious studies, historically Christians have persecuted Jews far worse than Muslims.
Again, I don't know, what it teaches. However, the issue of "Who, did Who" has no bearing on the "teaching" of a religion. (At least not in defining it)
So, the topics could be, "The conduct of religious groups, today and throughout history" or "What does a religion teach", but first should not be used to "define" the second. (The second "What it teaches" could indeed influence the first, although not necessarily. The the First "Behavior" should not be used to define the second "teaching", though it could be used to support that definition. So, "It" teaches "this" and we observe that in the behavior of it's followers, is valid. However, look at how they behave, and that must be what "it" teaches, is not.)
Best regards,
--Tachus
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Originally posted by Tachus
the "teaching" of a religion
You did a really good job a couple post up. The teachings are limpid. The chattering classes are another matter.
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Some quotes from the Koran on violence against infidels...
Sura 4-89: “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks…”
Sura 9-29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Sura 22-9: “As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.”
Sura 47-4: “When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”
A vast majority of Muslims regard the Koran (the source of these quotes) as the Word of God. The word is fixed, immutable, and cannot be changed by man. The Koran is what it is. No discussion of the text as a human work which shows cultural influences and evolves over time is allowed. Show me comparable passages in the teachings of the Buddha, or of Jesus, or Confucius. You can not.
BTW: Moslems argue not over the words but the meaning. Translations are done and since none are "offical" (all translation of the Koran are officially considered inaccurate) the meaning in English has some variations. I've read one Moslem scholar argue that all these passages are not to be interperted literally. Yes, they will say the Koran does contain these passages but either (a) these commands are not to be taken litterally or (b) the words don't mean what they used to mean. Personally, I don't buy that theory.
Islam is the most violent major religion.
quick google search on 'violent koran quotes' and first was http://www.teleologic.com/archives/2005/07/some_quotes_fro_1.html
Of course the bible was pretty violent too
[The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.] "When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men." (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)
Oooo, another good one:
Bible Quote for February 4
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
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It's more entertaining here than on 200.
Personally I think it's a travesty to mistreat any upstanding human, however, at GITMO we're not talking about any of those types. The original discussion was about dogs and vick. When you bring something as far fetched into the discussion as the treatment of murdering scum at GITMO you have to be prepared for pretty much anything. I would never even think of defending someone who would just as soon cut my head off for no reason. On the other hand there are lawyers who make a living defending trash and putting our families in danger every day.
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Burning Babies!! Burning Babies!!
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More Peace Loving Muslims (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/22/BA1IRMJL6.DTL)
Muslims + bakery = murder!
Just think if it was called 'Your White Aryan Bakery' instead of 'Your Black Muslim Bakery'
Slate's article (http://www.slate.com/id/2171745/)
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Originally posted by Bolo6
And contrary to popular belief, I am not muslim, nor do I follow any particular religion for that matter.
If that is so then how do you know the koran doesn't teach to lie to indidels and kill them? We've shown you sites that quote from it and you still refuse to answer.
Is it because we are infidels?
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Originally posted by Bolo6
snip....
And Redtop, please take no more offense than I took at the insinuation that I am a traitor.
I don't think I insinuated you were a traitor....
I said.....
I get the feeling he may be a bit biased and on the side of , lets say , the not so trust worthy people.
If you think that is insinuating your a traitor then so be it. Because you may align yourself with a side I don't agree with , nor have any kind words for doesn't make you a traitor. Even in my narrow scope. I may find you mis-guided , or believe your dead wrong. But until you pick up a wepon to fight FOR them....or denounce your citizenship , then your not really a traitor...just a person with whom I totally disagree with.
I'll sum up what I said and deleted....
You have NO IDEA what a terrorist is. You can't tell me if you were in a room with 100 muslims , and 10 of them were terrorists that you would have any idea that they were. None what so ever.
I don't read the koran , nor will I ever read it. I don't want to try to understand what it is that I did wrong other than being born an american , that pissed someone off so bad that an entire muslim population wants me dead. Not to mention my family , friends , aquaintences or anyone that isn't a muslim. And , you can set there and tell me that not all muslims are like that. That could be and probably is right. But , which ones are not that way? Anyway to tell?
Do the good muslims wear a ribbon or something stating that they are not big believers in my dieing? T-shirts that may say "Leave RedTop and freinds and family alone". No I didn't think so. So bascially I have to believe that they aren't all like that, yet have no way to know that JoeJihad that is riding the bus I am on is just a good ole boy muslim tanking a ride , or a terrorist scoping out how to blow this bus to bits in a few days while I may be on it. HE smiles and talks and has a plesant dimenor about him , all the while planning on killing a bus full of people. Seems like there were some guys back a few years ago that acted that way. Let me see....OH YEAH...the flew some planes into some tall buildings....maybe you remember that.
This is where I have drawn my line in the sand per se'. I have seen very few leading muslims come out and flat say that they are against what is going on with this extremist crap. Very few. SO I don't trust any of them. None what so ever.
I'm a christian white male just trying to make it to retirment. I have goals and dreams like most Americans. I have grandkids , neices and nephews. I have a loving wife and just go threw my day doing the best I can for her and myself. I have a couple of kids. I served my country from 1981 - 1985 in the U.S. Navy. None of what I have done in my life warrants my being killed because I am some type of infidel in the eyes of a few muslims. The very ones I cant tell from another one.
But yet , you seem to speak to the ole Rodney King theroy of..."Can't we all just get along"? Well No.....We can't. And personally I don't give two cents to make an effort.
There are people here in this country that want your butt just as dead as me. I fyou live in the U.S.. But you go on with the side of being nice to all. Trying to be that savior of all mankind. ME....I'll just make sure the guns are loaded in my home. I'll make sure that I pay my taxes. I'll make sure I do what I can for my family , friends and those I choose to help. I'll go on providing for my wife and I. I'll attend my church. I'll take in some Football , basebball and a race or 2 on TV. I'll play my Golf , fly on my puter and live my life the way I WANT TO.....and I WON'T LIVE in fear of some Muslim whack job that wants to hurt me. I just won't have anything to do with them.
If I ever have to...I'll make sure he sees Allah LONG BEFORE I see God.
I'm sure this is not what you wanted to hear....but...what can I say.
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First off I will venture to say that 'googling' violent koran quotes will return anything but reliable information. What I was looking for was for someone to get off of the computer and actually read a verse. Believing most of these web sites is like taking muppet banter seriously.
Redtop you have every right to feel the way that you do, but the attitude reflected inyou post reveals exactly why this country is in the predicament it is in. The people that run this country feel very much the same way. You don't feel the need to understand anyone but the ones who look the same as you and think the same as you and pray to the same God. By the way Allah and the Christian God are considered to be one and the same. FYI the same entity is called Yahweh by the Jews.
The fact that you don't care "two cents" to give an effort to get along with those that are different from you speaks volumes about you character and your values. These same values you pass on to your kids grandkids neices and nephews that you mentioned, which from your last post seems to be intolerance, and ignorance. The ignorance stemming from the fact that you beleive that all muslims are out to kill you. A good way to find out is, and here is a novel idea, try talking to one. Most muslims want the same things you want. To be able to provide for their families. This conflict didn't start with 9/11 and it won't end by killing all the muslims or the terrorists. It will only end when the cycle of ignorance and intolerance is broken on both sides.
You mention that you were a Christian man. But when did Christ teach to hate those that may hate you or even want to kill you? If Christ were here on this earth today, what would he say of your position? Do you beleive it is in line with the teachings western religion has attributed to him?
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Originally posted by Yknurd
More Peace Loving Muslims (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/22/BA1IRMJL6.DTL)
Muslims + bakery = murder!
Just think if it was called 'Your White Aryan Bakery' instead of 'Your Black Muslim Bakery'
Slate's article (http://www.slate.com/id/2171745/)
Your attempted comparison of Black Muslims from the Nation of Islam and followers of the Islamic faith is inaccurate. It is not the same religion. Nice try though. :rofl
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Hortlund, please quote for me from the Qu'ran where these instructions are written,
Surah 9:5 (kill the infidels)
Surah 9:29 (fight against the infidels until they submit to islam)
Surah 9:38-39 (Join the jihad or go to hell)
Surah 9:123 (fight the infidels, be harsh to them)
Surah 4:11 (women inheritance rights - gets 1/2 share)
Surah 4:34 (men are responsible for women, violence may be used if woman is rebellious)
I will read them for myself and then I will condem the entire religion as well.
Neat. Start condemning.
I think I will not find these things however because I don't beleive it is true.
Of cource you dont believe its true, you are a moslem and Im an infidel to you, therefore you would rather force me to convert to islam, or kill me.
Truth be told, and this is according to Dr Havva Housmand, professor of religious studies, historically Christians have persecuted Jews far worse than Muslims.
And this is relevant to the discussion how exactly?
In fact, Christians and Jews are not considered infidels because they are a "people of the Book" Your facts are simply wrong sir.
Surah 9:29 EXPLICITLY tells moslems to fight against those who do not believe allah and those who do not acknowledge the "religion of truth" (i.e. Islam) among the people of the book (thats us Christians, and the Jews), until they submit and are subdued.
Stop calling me sir. We all know you are just faking politeness anyway.
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Is Dr Havva Houshmand a follower of Sufiism?
And Bolo is your refrence point for islam via the study of Sufism?
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Your attempted comparison of Black Muslims from the Nation of Islam and followers of the Islamic faith is inaccurate. It is not the same religion. Nice try though. :rofl
Many people have attempted to belittle or degrade my followers by referring to them as unlettered or unschooled. They do this to imply that the believers in Islam are ignorant.
If such a claim were so, then all the more credit should be given for our striving for self-elevation with so little. But truth represents itself and stands by itself. No followers, nor any other people are more zealous about the acquiring of knowledge than my followers.
Throughout the Holy Qur'an, the duty of a Muslim to acquire knowledge is spelled out."
--The Honorable Elijah Muhammad
The legendary leader of the Nation of Islam (Black Muslims) thinks he was preaching Islam, he went on the Hajj and everything.
The NOI website says:
"WE BELIEVE In the One God whose proper Name is Allah.
WE BELIEVE in the Holy Qur'an and in the Scriptures of all the Prophets of God."
Sounds like Islam to me.
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3 pages, and he has supplied naught but opinion, no links, no facts (conjectures AREN'T facts) and has dismissed the source of every fact tossed his way. Liberal bbs troll 101:noid
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Originally posted by Bolo6
First off I will venture to say that 'googling' violent koran quotes will return anything but reliable information. What I was looking for was for someone to get off of the computer and actually read a verse. Believing most of these web sites is like taking muppet banter seriously.
Redtop you have every right to feel the way that you do, but the attitude reflected inyou post reveals exactly why this country is in the predicament it is in. The people that run this country feel very much the same way. You don't feel the need to understand anyone but the ones who look the same as you and think the same as you and pray to the same God. By the way Allah and the Christian God are considered to be one and the same. FYI the same entity is called Yahweh by the Jews.
The fact that you don't care "two cents" to give an effort to get along with those that are different from you speaks volumes about you character and your values. These same values you pass on to your kids grandkids neices and nephews that you mentioned, which from your last post seems to be intolerance, and ignorance. The ignorance stemming from the fact that you beleive that all muslims are out to kill you. A good way to find out is, and here is a novel idea, try talking to one. Most muslims want the same things you want. To be able to provide for their families. This conflict didn't start with 9/11 and it won't end by killing all the muslims or the terrorists. It will only end when the cycle of ignorance and intolerance is broken on both sides.
You mention that you were a Christian man. But when did Christ teach to hate those that may hate you or even want to kill you? If Christ were here on this earth today, what would he say of your position? Do you beleive it is in line with the teachings western religion has attributed to him?
Just a couple of important things.
First, and most importantly, as it relates to this post. Your statement
"By the way Allah and the Christian God are considered to be one and the same. FYI the same entity is called Yahweh by the Jews."
Is absolutely false. What Muslims might think on this matter, I cannot say, I have a pretty good idea about what Jews would says, but am not certain. However, I can tell you will absolute certainty that Christians reject that notion completely. (And I would be fairly certain Jews would as well)
Perhaps, Muslims believe we have the same God, that really has no bearing on it. I can say you and I have the same father, it doesn't mean it's true. I can only be the son of your father in one of two ways. I was born a natural son, or I was adopted? Just saying it, or wanting it to be true doesn't make it so. The same is true of God. He only has one begotten Son, Jesus, all the other sons (and daughters) he has, are adopted. The Bible clearly teaches, that no person can "be adopted" except through faith and Jesus. (For example, Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father, but through Me." Unless a Muslim confess Jesus as the Christ and their Lord (which would make the a Christian) then according to the Bible, they are not "sons" of God)
So Muslims and Christians, do not have the same Father. (There is about another 6 pages of examples I could present, but this should suffice.)
Secondly your argument about sources coming from the internet is not valid. It is true that if a source is to be used in an argument, that source should be reliable. However, your premise, that "Any" source from the internet is NOT a reliable source is what's called a "Hasty Generalization", and as such your premise is insufficient, to support your claim. In fact the internet can be seen as a medium, much in the same way "books" are. So one could say, it's not the Internet, or Books, that are the "Source" it is the author of the material, that is the source. So whether someone reads the Koran, on the internet, from a book, or listens to it on their IPod, makes no difference. If it is indeed the Koran, the source is the Koran, not the medium by which it was delivered.
Finally, your premise that "A person can't prove it" means it's not so, is what's called an "Appeal to Ignorance" and is also an invalid premise. For example, a person presents a passage from the Koran. You could check the correctness of the claim, and then sight a source which would confirm or deny that passage, but you simply restate, "Prove it" (though not is no many words, this is the essence of what you have done.) Thus, an "Appeal to Ignorance". The quickest way to refute a persons claims about the Koran, is to check the information. If you are un-willing to do this, then it seems (right or wrong) your goal is to simply state your opinion, and not to determine whether your position is reasonable or not.
Best regards,
--Tachus
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Originally posted by Bolo6
First off I will venture to say that 'googling' violent koran quotes will return anything but reliable information. What I was looking for was for someone to get off of the computer and actually read a verse. Believing most of these web sites is like taking muppet banter seriously.
You'll wait the rest of your life more than likely before I pick up a koran and read about the muslim way of dealing with me.
Redtop you have every right to feel the way that you do, but the attitude reflected inyou post reveals exactly why this country is in the predicament it is in. The people that run this country feel very much the same way. You don't feel the need to understand anyone but the ones who look the same as you and think the same as you and pray to the same God. By the way Allah and the Christian God are considered to be one and the same. FYI the same entity is called Yahweh by the Jews.
Your wrong. First off I don't care that someone maybe a muslim. I don't care that someone may be a Baptist , Catholic , lutheran or whatever. It's a free country here and people may worship whom they feel is thier god. I don't care what color people are or that they "Look" like me or anything of the sorts. I am a believer in the LAW. I am a believer in , if you hit me in the mouth I'll hit you back. I'm not gonna sit and bleed and try to understand why that person hit me. If I KNOW I didn't do something to warrant it , you can bet you tail I'll fight back and not sit there trying to talk about it. Especially if the only reason was because I am not a muslim. And Allah isn't MY god..nor have I EVER been taught that. Arguments can be made about what the bible says and that it maybe violent. But I haven't been taught in all my years of church to kill the ifidels.
The fact that you don't care "two cents" to give an effort to get along with those that are different from you speaks volumes about you character and your values. These same values you pass on to your kids grandkids neices and nephews that you mentioned, which from your last post seems to be intolerance, and ignorance. The ignorance stemming from the fact that you beleive that all muslims are out to kill you. A good way to find out is, and here is a novel idea, try talking to one. Most muslims want the same things you want. To be able to provide for their families. This conflict didn't start with 9/11 and it won't end by killing all the muslims or the terrorists. It will only end when the cycle of ignorance and intolerance is broken on both sides.
My character and values. Interesting. I taught my kids fine values thank you. I teach my grandkids fine values thank you. Your the 2nd person on this BBS that have siad someting to me along that lines. Yet most people I know in real life think I am a great person and a great father. Because I don't choose to "understand" brings my character and values in question. I see common sense.
I'll ask you again , in a room of a 100 muslims , 10 of them being terrorists , can you pick the 10 out? No. So with that said , and knowing that jihad has been declared by the muslim whackjobs, how am I to know who is a good guy and who is a bad guy. And , taken to the next step , how am I to know that the muslims conforming to a U.S. way of life , arent setting a bunchof us up for a big fall? Just trust em right? You trust em...I'll not hand someone a rope that wants to hang me. And I don't feel , living in the U.S. that it is MY place to understand them. It's THIER place to understand ME. If you go to lets say Spain. You feel thet they should speak english? That they should "Understand" you? You want to communicate you need to make the effort. Not them.
You mention that you were a Christian man. But when did Christ teach to hate those that may hate you or even want to kill you? If Christ were here on this earth today, what would he say of your position? Do you beleive it is in line with the teachings western religion has attributed to him?
I re-read my post. I never used the word hate. Not once. I don't hate muslims. I don't hate anyone really. (cept my ex-wife). I just don't trust a culture that teaches what they may teach. God gave me common sense. He may not be impressed with me staying away from a people that teach thier kids from birth to kill the infidels and treat thier women badly. If thats the case , then I maybe in a bad light with God. However I don't think I am.
Your entitled to what you think and what you want to try to "understand". Sometime in the future , we're going to pay for our political politeness in this country.
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RedTop
:aok
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Your attempted comparison of Black Muslims from the Nation of Islam and followers of the Islamic faith is inaccurate. It is not the same religion. Nice try though. :rofl
I guess then Baptists, Protestants, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, ad nauseum aren't really Christians...just Catholics.
[edit] and just how ****ing stupid is your ass...you want to split hairs...**** you then...it doesn't take many brain cells to search both reports and video for Al Qaeda members ****ing beheading people.
I hope you go to Iraq and get captured by them and as you cry to whatever god you have those peace loving Muslims slowly decapitate you with their rusty, dull sword all the while chanting Allah is great.
Good Day, you bloody banana!
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Without understanding the will be no peace. Some of you may not want peace. Our leaders don't want peace, it is not profitable. You've all been mislead. I am not faking politeness either. I have no ill will towards any of you. Although the same can not be said for feelings towards me. And the tradition in islam states that the same God that visited Moses, Abraham and Jesus, also spoke to Muhhamed.
And speaking of Jesus, there is doubt historically as to whether or not he ever existed. His story is very similar to that of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. This ancient Egyptian myth pre-dated Christianity by more that 2000 years. Today we call that plagerism.
This is not a debate that will be solved on these boards. Thank you all for replying. In closing I only ask that you challenge what you have been taught and told. And don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.
PS
YKNurd, do you need a hug?:rofl
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The most pathetic retreat from a discussion Ive ever seen.
You promised you would condemn islam. Hold your word.
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You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.
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"Live the Life I Love,
Love the Life I Live."
-LeVarr Treadwell
Who the heck is LeVarr Tredwell?
And why are you givin' them credit for a McKinley Morganfield song?
Originally posted by Bolo6
You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.
What does the bias of a website have to do with it?
Are the quotes accurate? Can you provide a source you would rather us use? I am 100% positive (havin' studied this) that I can find the same information provided to you at any webiste you would choose to provide as "reputable".
Which, btw, you have as of yet to do.
So far, you have only provided us with opinions (read what you said above about bias opinions being bad) and not a single scholarly article, fact, source what ever.
Untill you do, you've lost. You have zero chance of holding up your end of the debate/argument/discussion here with opinions only.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Without understanding the will be no peace. Some of you may not want peace. Our leaders don't want peace, it is not profitable. You've all been mislead. I am not faking politeness either. I have no ill will towards any of you. Although the same can not be said for feelings towards me. And the tradition in islam states that the same God that visited Moses, Abraham and Jesus, also spoke to Muhhamed.
And speaking of Jesus, there is doubt historically as to whether or not he ever existed. His story is very similar to that of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. This ancient Egyptian myth pre-dated Christianity by more that 2000 years. Today we call that plagerism.
This is not a debate that will be solved on these boards. Thank you all for replying. In closing I only ask that you challenge what you have been taught and told. And don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.
PS
YKNurd, do you need a hug?:rofl
I have no ill will, and in fact have not interjected my opinion on the main topic of this thread. (Although I did address your claim concerning the "one" god for all issue.)
What I did do, was to point out that for an argument to be valid, it must have a premise that is NOT faulty. Your's do not meet that commonly accepted standard.
I also fail to understand, why you simple didn't check the information that was presented. Or why you didn't address the points made by others, with something other than "This is my opinion" Since you have failed to do either, I makes it difficult to take you seriously, and makes one wonder, if your only goal is to "stir the pot" and have no real desire to be engaged in a rational discussion.
Case in point, the issue of Muslims, Jews and Christians having the same god. I quoted the Bible, used a rational analogy, and presented a case based on biblical teaching. You replied, with, according to tradition,... and then moved onto something that was completely irrelevant to the issues at hand. (Jesus, is a liar.) You didn't make any reference to a source, nor make any attempt to speak to the premise or conclusion I presented.
I'm not mocking you, so don't misunderstand my next statement. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to learn how to put together a valid argument, using reasonable premises, that support a rational conclusion. I would recommend the book, "How to Think About Weird Things". Or take a practical reasoning course at you local community college.
One last point, on this issue the origins of religious ideas and such things. (Although, this is important regardless of the topic.) It has to do with our presuppositions and how they affect the way we view "Facts" I posted this in a other thread, but it fits the need here as well. I'll paste it in below.
_____________________________ ______
Just a note on presuppositions and how they influence our view of the "Facts"
For example. There are allot of Flood Legends, nearly every culture has one.
That is a "Fact". Now, on to the issue of how we "interpret that fact" and how that interpretation is influenced by our presupposition.
If you start with the view that the Bible is NOT accurate, but a collection of stories. The you might view these "Flood Legends" as support of you position. The Flood in the Bible has it's roots in the Babylonian flood legend of Gilgamesh.
However, if I start with from the position that the Bible is accurate. What would I expect to find? Well I would expect to find, flood legends in every culture. (Because according to the Bible, everyone alive today, is a descendant of Noah and his three sons) I would expect to find some of these legends to be very similar to the Bible account of the flood. (Some of the oral stories would be better preserved than others.) I would expect to find the Biblical account, to be among the "The Most" believable. Well guess, what we find, Exactly what I just described. (This does not "Prove" the Bible is true, just as claiming the Biblical flood is just a story, based on Babylonian legend, doesn't "Prove" it's false.)
The same is true of religious ideas and concepts. There are many that are very similar, but if they all "originated" with Noah, this is exactly what we would expect to find. Furthermore, since the nation of Israel was not founded for some time after the flood. I would expect to find flood legends, and religious ideas and concepts, very similar to the "True" accounts which are recorded in the Bible; and I would expect to find some of those recorded, prior to the recording of the accurate account (the one found in the Bible)
The point being, whether we like to admit it or not our presuppositions greatly effect how we view the "Facts". We all have the same "Facts" many times the difference in our conclusions is in how we "View" those facts.
_____________________________ _______
So the fact that some myth pre-dates Jesus, does not prove, it was the original. Those concepts could have come from the "correct" one, and passed down from Noah, being corrupted over time.
Best regards,
--Tachus
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Originally posted by Bolo6
You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.
Actually, I would contend there is rarely an "unbiased opinion" to be had on most any topic that matters. We are all, biased. Thus the point I make about our presuppositions affecting the way we view "Facts"
Also, as I mentioned in an early post, though it is proper to consider a source, when we look at a premise. It is not proper to dismiss it out of hand, without just cause.
If a drunk, tells a kid they shouldn't drink and drive, does that mean the statement isn't valid? No, the statement is valid, regardless of the source. So if someone that is completely insane, or biased or whatever, puts together a valid and reasonable argument, dismissing it out of hand, is an un-reasonable response. Which it seems is what you have done.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.
What's this?
Originally posted by Hortlund
Surah 9:5 (kill the infidels)
Surah 9:29 (fight against the infidels until they submit to islam)
Surah 9:38-39 (Join the jihad or go to hell)
Surah 9:123 (fight the infidels, be harsh to them)
Surah 4:11 (women inheritance rights - gets 1/2 share)
Surah 4:34 (men are responsible for women, violence may be used if woman is rebellious)
Neat. Start condemning.
Of cource you dont believe its true, you are a moslem and Im an infidel to you, therefore you would rather force me to convert to islam, or kill me.
And this is relevant to the discussion how exactly?
Surah 9:29 EXPLICITLY tells moslems to fight against those who do not believe allah and those who do not acknowledge the "religion of truth" (i.e. Islam) among the people of the book (thats us Christians, and the Jews), until they submit and are subdued.
Stop calling me sir. We all know you are just faking politeness anyway.
Bolo6, would you please post what Surah 9:29 says in your Qu'ran. Doing so would clear a lot of things up.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.
Just a point here. You have quoted nothing at all to support your contention or to counter the quotes already listed by others. Do you have anything to add other than your opinion? Preferably something quoted from the quran. It's time to put up or STFU.
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Gents,
If you do a search for Dr Havva Houshmand you will find that he or she is a faculty member at Albuquerque TVI Community College, Arts & Sciences dept. He or she has helped do the language and possibly quarn or sufi related translations for an Iraninan or Persian feminist story.
Bolo needs to stop his or her deflecting direct questions with vague moral and scriptural superiority and provide answers to questions that can be verified by contacting real people or by the internet.
The style of bolo's dialog is way too familure. Almost seems feminist and Sufi from a student union ideological dialog session or a one sided professors views on reality.
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First off, All I have offered are questions which none of you have answered fully if even at all.
Lets take sura 9-29 for example. The one I read says God not Allah,teleologic.com. Big difference. I read the sura and take it to mean fight those who do not beleive at all. Try leaving your computer and going into a library. I think the teleologic blog is anything but reputable. And Dr Housmand is Iranian, but she is not Muslim. She has a very interesting story about her escape from the Khomeni, but ya'll wouldn't be interested in that. I could attempt to refute what some of you are saying by finding other websites, but I prefer to go to a library instead. Or talk to a muslim before I condem the entire religion. I have an open mind, most of you don't. That can't be changed by me on a bulletin board. Islam is no better that Christianity or Judaism.
PS
WMLUte the question is who the hell is Mckinely Morganfield?
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Originally posted by Bolo6
I read the sura and take it to mean fight those who do not beleive at all.
So that means that if you don't believe as they do, they are supposed to kill you. Sounds to me like its a violent barbaric religion.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
WMLUte the question is who the hell is Mckinely Morganfield?
The person who wrote that line you use in your sig.
(duh)
(edit: McKinly maybe... I was just happy to remember their real name)
(edit:edit: what's your opinon of http://www.submission.org)
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Bolo do a search for Seagoon's posts on Islam. He is a Presbyterian pastor but studied Islam before converting to Christianity. He is very knowledgable about Islam and sites many sources.
Read his posts on Islam and if you do so with an open heart you too will see Islam for what it teaches.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
You quoted nothig from the Qu'ran only from biased websites that have no place in research. Thats like asking Rush Limbaugh for an unbiased opinion of the GOP.
I quoted the koran. I gave you the exact verses. THE EXACT VERSES. How the **** can you say that is "from biased websites"?
You truly are an idiot.
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Hortlund,
He's (she's) just another troll, like mcblivet.
Ya know, it's almost like those folks at that stripper web site decided to play a return visit here for the raids a few folks here did on their site.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
"Live the Life I Love,
Love the Life I Live."
-LeVarr Treadwell[/B][/QUOTE]
There is a reason I brought up your Sig.
Anybody that takes a very well known Muddy Waters song and gives credit to an unknown is obviously a bit "touched" in the head.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/MuddyWatersAnthology.jpg)
(do a search for "LeVarr Treadwell")
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what happened to mckinley what his name?
Notice the caps? And I may be touched, but no more so than any of you.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
what happened to mckinley what his name?
Notice the caps? And I may be touched, but no more so than any of you.
McKinley Morganfield (April 4, 1913 – April 30, 1983), better known as Muddy Waters, was an American blues musician and is generally considered "the Father of Chicago blues".
You really need to do a LITTLE research before you post things. (why start now I guess eh?)
What does "caps" have to do w/ anything?
So do tell... who is the Tredwell person you gave credit to for a famous Muddy Waters song?
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Without understanding the will be no peace. Some of you may not want peace. Our leaders don't want peace, it is not profitable. You've all been mislead. I am not faking politeness either. I have no ill will towards any of you. Although the same can not be said for feelings towards me. And the tradition in islam states that the same God that visited Moses, Abraham and Jesus, also spoke to Muhhamed.
And speaking of Jesus, there is doubt historically as to whether or not he ever existed. His story is very similar to that of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. This ancient Egyptian myth pre-dated Christianity by more that 2000 years. Today we call that plagerism.
This is not a debate that will be solved on these boards. Thank you all for replying. In closing I only ask that you challenge what you have been taught and told. And don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.
PS
YKNurd, do you need a hug?:rofl
I will more then likely offend a lot of people here. So I will appologize up front.
Religion has always been the core of all that plagues this world. The solution for every religion was total conformity/or death. Heritics/infidiels. Pretty much the same thing. I have children, sent them all to catholic schools. Why? because the education and the base core values are good for developing minds. Non of the kids are confirmed. What is taught in the house is plain and simple a man wrote the book. Believe what your heart tells you, God is in all of us, treat people the way you want to be treated.
Makes life pretty simple. Non of this my God is Better then your God BS. I have found in my exsperience in life the less educated, are easily drawn to religions in general for soulutions to their day to day problems in life. My family teaches self reliance. This country was founded on Judaeo-Christian philosophy. In principal it works...which segways back to the begining of this thread. Dog fighting is wrong in so many ways as is torture. But in my heart I can justify torturing any religious zealot who is hell bent on killing me and my family because I eat bacon!:furious
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Originally posted by Maverick
Hortlund,
He's (she's) just another troll, like mcblivet.
Ya know, it's almost like those folks at that stripper web site decided to play a return visit here for the raids a few folks here did on their site.
1. My name on here is "McFarland", not Mcblivet. Are you touched in the head?
2. I am not a troll.
3. Bolo is either a troll, or is a relative of Maverick.
4. The Karan teaches to kill "infidels", unless they submit to being ruled. Not "turn the other cheek and forgive them".
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Originally posted by Bolo6
Without understanding the will be no peace. Some of you may not want peace.
Perhaps some of us see things in reality and don't live in wonderland with Alice. Im wondering who declared holy war? Let see...Oh yeah...the Muslim extremeist. The ones yu cant tell from the good muslims. I don't thing our leadership has ever said we declare a holy war against the muslim people.
Our leaders don't want peace, it is not profitable.
I'm sure you belive that. Shame to. IF thats that case then every politician in Washington should be put in prison for accessory to murder. Why don't ya see how far you can take that and start a march or protest for that? We'll see how that goes:noid
You've all been mislead.
This is where we cue the Helicopters and issue you your tinfoil hat.
I am not faking politeness either. I have no ill will towards any of you. Although the same can not be said for feelings towards me.
Your just talking out your backside. You have trolled and made it clear where ya stand as far as the Koran and Muslim faith fall in your life. Good luck with that.
And the tradition in islam states that the same God that visited Moses, Abraham and Jesus, also spoke to Muhhamed.
Again , I haven't nor will I read te koran. I'm happy with my own beliefs.
And speaking of Jesus, there is doubt historically as to whether or not he ever existed. His story is very similar to that of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. This ancient Egyptian myth pre-dated Christianity by more that 2000 years. Today we call that plagerism.
So Isis or Osiris or horus was jesus? IS that what ya mean? If so....than again have a good time trying to seel that.
This is not a debate that will be solved on these boards. Thank you all for replying. In closing I only ask that you challenge what you have been taught and told.
You could be told the same.
And don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.
Your the only one here with the bag of Rocks. Don't worry about the rest of us. Most of us seem to be doing find giving you alot more than you bargained for in this argument. You don't want to look at things provided to you because you say they are biased. I say YOUR biased and full of crap and just looking for an argument. I'm very content to look at things my own way. Have a nice day and careful of that picture window. Its big.
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Originally posted by uberhun
I will more then likely offend a lot of people here. So I will appologize up front.
Religion has always been the core of all that plagues this world. The solution for every religion was total conformity/or death. Heritics/infidiels. Pretty much the same thing. I have children, sent them all to catholic schools. Why? because the education and the base core values are good for developing minds. Non of the kids are confirmed. What is taught in the house is plain and simple a man wrote the book. Believe what your heart tells you, God is in all of us, treat people the way you want to be treated.
Makes life pretty simple. Non of this my God is Better then your God BS. I have found in my exsperience in life the less educated, are easily drawn to religions in general for soulutions to their day to day problems in life. My family teaches self reliance. This country was founded on Judaeo-Christian philosophy. In principal it works...which segways back to the begining of this thread. Dog fighting is wrong in so many ways as is torture. But in my heart I can justify torturing any religious zealot who is hell bent on killing me and my family because I eat bacon!:furious
First, I'm not offended, as your view on religion seems to be rather common today.
However, I disagree with a couple of your premises.
First, religion is hardly the core reason of all plagues on man kind. Man is the core reason for the plagues he (man) has endured, not religion. People often point to a hand full of events, through out all of time, and then claim, "See religion is bad." The same can be done (and is done) with capitalism, socialism, and communism.
Secondly, although not directly, it seems you imply that if people were "educated" and self reliant, they would not be religious. There has been many highly educated and intellectual people of "Faith", both in the past as there is today.
I personally know a fair number very educated people (PhD lvl) Some are "religious" some are not. Some are kinda flaky (religious and non-religious both.) The point is being "Religious" does not equate to "Un-Educated"
Best regards,
--Tachus
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Originally posted by Tachus
First, I'm not offended, as your view on religion seems to be rather common today.
However, I disagree with a couple of your premises.
First, religion is hardly the core reason of all plagues on man kind. Man is the core reason for the plagues he (man) has endured, not religion. People often point to a hand full of events, through out all of time, and then claim, "See religion is bad." The same can be done (and is done) with capitalism, socialism, and communism.
Secondly, although not directly, it seems you imply that if people were "educated" and self reliant, they would not be religious. There has been many highly educated and intellectual people of "Faith", both in the past as there is today.
I personally know a fair number very educated people (PhD lvl) Some are "religious" some are not. Some are kinda flaky (religious and non-religious both.) The point is being "Religious" does not equate to "Un-Educated"
Best regards,
--Tachus
You make many valid points Tachus. I realize the way I phrased my comment about education and religion was rather vague and would lead one to think I meant people of a lesser educated state are drawn to religions. I appreciate your point of people of faith who are very educated and well studied. Social idioms like you listed are devoid of all that is real. I guess what I am trying to say is "Faith" in a God belief is much better then a "Man" tainted religion. (Of course in my own humble opinion)
!
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Religion is nothing more than man's search for God and/or purpose and meaning. Tell me you have no need for purpose or meaning in your life. I'll tell you are not mentally cognizant of that which motivates you. You may say it is the nature of our evolution to which I would answer, and?
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Purpose is all.
:noid
Thank you for our one-trick pony brains, God, it's really great to be restricted to the perspective of causality.
Who said a few beers can't help your lucidity? :p
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Originally posted by moot
Purpose is all.
:noid
Thank you for our one-trick pony brains, God, it's really great to be restricted to the perspective of causality.
Who said a few beers can't help your lucidity? :p
Sounds like you're assuming you didn't volunteer for the mission?
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**** if I know... What I want now is enough time to figure it out. If only we had more time.:)
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Originally posted by Bolo6
First off, All I have offered are questions which none of you have answered fully if even at all.
Lets take sura 9-29 for example. The one I read says God not Allah,teleologic.com. Big difference. I read the sura and take it to mean fight those who do not beleive at all. Try leaving your computer and going into a library. I think the teleologic blog is anything but reputable. And Dr Housmand is Iranian, but she is not Muslim. She has a very interesting story about her escape from the Khomeni, but ya'll wouldn't be interested in that. I could attempt to refute what some of you are saying by finding other websites, but I prefer to go to a library instead. Or talk to a muslim before I condem the entire religion. I have an open mind, most of you don't. That can't be changed by me on a bulletin board. Islam is no better that Christianity or Judaism.
PS
WMLUte the question is who the hell is Mckinely Morganfield?
Bolo,
If now this is the real truth of your position as opposed to your assumption of vauge moral Islamic superiority during most of the begining of this thread, you have walked the line of disengenousness and stepped with purpose over it. Depending on the sect, country, tribe, family and personal agenda of the muslim asked to translate the quran, an infidel will receive that many translations and most deniging antipathy with commands to act with extream prejudice against non beleivers of Islam.
Your above statement about the good Dr. Housmand not being muslim, but Persian and her escape from Khomeni is what led me to ask if she and yourself practice sufism. The Persian form to be specific. I vaugly remembered something about her and Iran from an article a long time ago. Persian sufism is not considered Islamic by muslims. If I remember correctly the good Iranian mulla's used to persicute including to death the followers of Persian Sufism with the same vigor as their hatred of all of us americans and westerners on this board.
There is a new feminist movement amongst middle eastern women to retranslate the quran to the peace love and grooviness version you have been answering from to the questioners in this forum. They are trying to rewrite it to change the original positions on a womans place in historicly traditional Islam. Kinda like american gays have been attempting to rewrite the Christian bible passages that deem carnal relations between same sex partners is a sin.
If you are going to sell a religion, be forth coming enough to explain to your rubes(con marks) which brand of smoke and mirrors you represent.
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So where did Bolo6 go?
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Originally posted by Tango
So where did Bolo6 go?
I'm not sure, but I feel pretty confident, that he has NOT gone to look up any of the numerous sources that have be cited here, nor to find any reasonable sources of his own. Unless of course, he is acting in a way completely contrary to his previous behavior.
Best regards,
--Tachus
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it's not so much what the Koran says as how it is interpreted.
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Originally posted by john9001
it's not so much what the Koran says as how it is interpreted.
This is true, to a point. However, regardless of the document, there are certain principles that should be applied in order understand the author's intent. If those are applied properly, "most" of the time people can arrive at a similar conclusion. In those cases they don't, there is usually an agenda involved.
I addressed this in a previous post in this thread, (on the third page, if you want to look) so I will not repost it all here.
The short version is this, "what" a religion teaches, is based on what the supporting documents "teach" not what people say, or how they act.
For example, the Bible clearly teaches adultery is wrong, and any interpretation outside of that, is one that has violated a HOST of the proper principles required to interpret it correctly.
Best regards,
--Tachus
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Bolo6 was out getting drunk.
Look guys, never in any of my post have I claimed to be islamic or an expert on the Qu'ran. I only sggested that none of you know the tru nature of islam. i also submitted that Islam was not a religion of violence any more than Christianity of Judaism. If you beleive that you know what all muslims think, I think you are making a pretty big assumption since none of you have talked to even a majority of muslims. You all seem to be happy with listening to what you are told. I've spent time in the middle east and I never met a muslim that wanted to kill me. If i met one here I would do my best to kill them first. I refuse however to condem all muslims based on the actions of a few extremists.
i will admit that i was vauge on my position and these posting will definitely improve my debate skills. Thanks. If someone wishes to harm my nation, they should be dealt with accordingly, but we can't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Based on some of these post, some of you would advocate a muslim genocide to protect us and can any of you state that that is a valid, rational way to solve a conflict?
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Bolo,
3000 of our bretherin and "kind" were murdered by cowardly sneak attack on September 11, 2001 in New York city. The men murdering ours were muslim from Islam and muslims from Islam on that day were extatic and in the streets around the world dancing with JOY.
You are either with THEM or with the Citizens of the United States! When Islam hunts down and incarcerates or eliminates publicly ALL of its membership who hold performing 9/11 style activities against Americans a sin and a crime of the most extream nature against human beings, Citizens of the United States will be there to listen.
Until that time, God of either religion never told his followers to accept destruction at the hands of their enemy's. In the Christian religion it is a sin to commit suicide. Turning the other cheek to the members of Islam who are even now attempting to aquire nuclear wheapons to end our lives is suicide and a sin against OUR GOD. Islamic law directs it's members to murder us.
Your use of Dr. Housmand as an interpriter of the quran is flawed and worng. She is in league with Islamic feminists who in in their own way are lieing as much as the quran directs its members to lie to infidels.
Islam is not a peace love and groovienss religion. Western Feminists have caused their own form of cultural genocide in the west. Don't try to sell this small slice of the west on the new Feminist translation of the quran. I don't hear any Islamic feminists decrying 9/11 the same as I don't hear any western feminists decrying 9/11. Take your one woman sissy band back to Dr. Housmand and tell her the men of the United States are not buying yet another line of feminist dogma.
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Originally posted by Bolo6
I only sggested that none of you know the tru nature of islam. i also submitted that Islam was not a religion of violence any more than Christianity of Judaism.
How can you say that? Quotes from the koran in this thread have shown how it promotes violence against anyone who isn' a muslim. I think that goes a LONG way in showing the true nature of islam.