Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on August 28, 2007, 03:06:52 PM
-
I missed the program this article refers to, but people were talking about it at work and it sounded interesting. The group in question were extras in Saving Private Ryan.
Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/25/nazi125.xml)
"Panorama, due to be broadcast on Monday, used a hidden camera to record one of the senior members of the SBG in the beer tent. The man... was heard to say: "If it (the Waffen SS) existed now, I would join. I believe we should be sorting these Muslims out."
Another man from the Netherlands claimed he was part of Blood and Honour. A German man, called Boris, from a Luftwaffe re-enactment group, said: "We are losing our country, losing our blood because of jigaboos. Our blood is not any more fresh."
-
Jigaboo? Where are you?
-
We had a couple of these guys try to join our re-enactment outfit.There is a heavily screened process a person has to go through before getting into a german Re-Enactment unit to make sure things of this nature do not happen.
Next month is Our D-Day Event in North Eastern Ohio.P-51's, a Bf-109 and several higgins boats will be involved.I am glad i get to man the MG-42 this year Muhahahahahahahahahahaha. have to work more on my german though.
Not everybody dressed as a German has the same belief's as the real soilders did.
-
Dowding, don't be too shocked. There are people on this board here who say the same exact things. Killing off the muslims, the racial mix of the US (and horrified posts about how hispanics will outnumber caucasians, who some posters obviously consider the "true" americans for some reason), these and other subjects are pretty regular here.
EDIT: I'm not saying it's a problem with this board specifically, just that perhaps those viewpoints are wider spread than you'd think from watching TV, and that folks have just gotten better at keeping it to themselves most of the time.
-
sadly this isnt something new:rolleyes:
-
Should I go ahead and lock this now? There is no way a civil discussion about this is going to happen.
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Should I go ahead and lock this now? There is no way a civil discussion about this is going to happen.
You're a daisy if you don't. :D
-
press two for anglease
-
The Nazi where allies with the Muslims in WWII because they both hated the Jews. It sounds like those guys don't know a thing about the group they so admire. The enemy of my enemy is my friend type of mentality.
-
I got a joke..
So the final test for Moojeebar after his schooling
The instructor told him he has to use the words green - pink and yellow in a sentance..
SO Moojeebar says
Green Green...So I pink up da phone and say Yellow!?
And the Instructor says Congradulations Moojeebar..You are now on our IT Help line team!
-
Oh noes! A secret recording of a bunch of drunk guys in a beer tent each trying to outdo the other and that's the worst they could come up with?
I've read worse from some of the yahoos that frequent this board.
Not that what they said isn't wrong, it just seems they are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
-
Skuzzy should have his own smiliey ...Maybe a huge padlock with a ? on it.
Save him some typing i'd bet(and offer ample warming)
-
GREEEEEN GREEEEN, i have to go now , my phone is ringing.
-
"In April, the SBG sparked outrage when children were allowed to wear the brown shirts of the Hitler Youth and sell Nazi memorabilia at Salute '07 in the Docklands"
AWWWWWW. :aok
-
looks like someone finally figured out how to summon grunherz from the ether.
:D
where you been G?
-
:rofl
-
crazy stuff man, next thing ya know they are gonna start interviewing aliens!
-
JB, sup!
I'm not playing AH any more but I check the board out every once in a while and leave a nice message - obviously this thread was too tempting. Sadly nobody has jumped up yet and called me bad things for my post - kids these days are so slow for the baitl Whats happenin here people?
:cry
As for the article them are some confused nazis, specially since there were several whole Waffen SS divisions full of Muslims during the war.
Still tho, should it be any surprise that there are people with such tendencies that then like to play dress up as Waffen SS during the weekend. Its just like the Confederate re-enactors in the USA - I bet a few of them are a bit too dedicated to their "cause" too.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its just like the Confederate re-enactors in the USA - I bet a few of them are a bit too dedicated to their "cause" too.
Perhaps you should do some research. Those Confederate re-enactors are ALSO Union re-enactors.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Still tho, should it be any surprise that there are people with such tendencies that then like to play dress up as Waffen SS during the weekend. Its just like the Confederate re-enactors in the USA - I bet a few of them are a bit too dedicated to their "cause" too.
Someone has to be the Bad Guys every now and then, and i have already made the plunge from the Higgins boat onto the beach so it's only right that i play a German the next year the event takes place.
As far as Civil War Re-enacters go, they are the best people you'll ever meet and will go out of thier way to help others out.Re-enacting if oner of the funnest things a human being can do and it keeps History alive so that others can learn about the past.
member of:
Sons of Revolutionary War Veterans
Sons of War of 1812 Veterans
Sons Of the Union Veterans
Sons of the Confederacy
Currently active in the 5th Texas Company A, and the 123rd O.V.I.
I attend just about every Major re-enactment around this country as a member of Gen.Picketts staff.
-
Originally posted by Xargos
The Nazi where allies with the Muslims in WWII because they both hated the Jews. It sounds like those guys don't know a thing about the group they so admire. The enemy of my enemy is my friend type of mentality.
Like the Moroccans, Senegalese and so on ?
-
I lived in Morocco when I was younger and they thought the Nazi where great and nationalized all French property within the country.
-
go figure
<-- israeli morrocan
-
I lived there during the Spanish Sahara War. We had friends that where Jewish and every time they would come over to visit our fatima would refuse to be in the same room with them. I could never understand how they survived in a country that hated them so much.
-
Someone has to be the Bad Guys every now and then, and i have already made the plunge from the Higgins boat onto the beach so it's only right that i play a German the next year the event takes place.
The point the program made was that the group in question had a disproportionate percentage of people playing SS. It certainly wasn't a chore for them, more the main reason they joined.
-
Higgins boats are for daisies. Real man jump from LVT's :D
-
Allow me to play Devilīs advocate here for a moment:
Is it really right to discriminate against these people based on their political believes?
-
Yes. Absolutely :D
-
Originally posted by Viking
Allow me to play Devilīs advocate here for a moment:
Is it really right to discriminate against these people based on their political believes?
I understand where your coming from. But when a political belief is founded on hatred of another race or religion, it needs to be kept under control.
-
That would make stiff Muslims rank as Nazis.
There is no racism better than another....
-
is this the gonzalas thread?......
-
who is that?
-
when i was visiting in california post 911 i was listening to a widely popular radio station and suddenly im shocked , im hearing an add to boycott israel and stop american support to isreal and how the "jews" were evily keeping arab children from going to school etc... and at the end of the ad after my whole family in the car is stunned, it said the add was paid for by the muslim somethin something of america. Now i know about americas 1st ammendment but wtf isnt that pushing it? this was on 102.7 kiis fm if any of you know that station
-
Even in my little country, the question has been opened what moslims would do in the case of Jihad. Worldwide Jihad.
Guess what, thy solemnly stated that they were ready to wage war against anyone non-moslim. Pretty stupid when the odds are 1 vs 1000.
But it baffles me, for it is treason to the citizenship. Treason to the friends down the hall, treaon to everyone that was ever a friend.
In my book, people as such belong in the category of Nazis, - they hate other people because of their belief or race.
Same crap, and the 20th century should have shown mankind that this is out-dated.
-
Originally posted by Angus
Same crap, and the 20th century should have shown mankind that this is out-dated.
but angus, they still live in the seventh century.
-
7th?
Any particular event from the 7th century to relate with neo-nazism?
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
Now i know about americas 1st ammendment but wtf isnt that pushing it? this was on 102.7 kiis fm if any of you know that station
Popular speech never needs protection. The first amendment exists to protect the folks that say the stuff you don't want to hear because nobody is going to try and stop those saying things everyone agrees with.
Perhaps a review of what the constitution stands for would be in order, your understanding of the liberties our soldiers have fought and died for through the ages is lacking and your statement ignorant.
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Perhaps a review of what the constitution stands for would be in order, your understanding of the liberties our soldiers have fought and died for through the ages is lacking and your statement ignorant.
WORD !
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Perhaps a review of what the constitution stands for would be in order, your understanding of the liberties our soldiers have fought and died for through the ages is lacking and your statement ignorant.
evenhaim
Senior Member
Registered: Oct 2006
Location: tel aviv , israel
Posts: 1406
---------------------------------------------
Bit over the top considering his loc?
Bronk
-
Originally posted by Xargos
I understand where your coming from. But when a political belief is founded on hatred of another race or religion, it needs to be kept under control.
Does that mean the Democratic party as well?
-
well, all this talk about 'its just Re-enactment', but what if People/children in Israel
were allowed to wear the brown shirts of the Hitler Youth
and sell Nazi memorabilia?
imagine that! :rofl
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Popular speech never needs protection. The first amendment exists to protect the folks that say the stuff you don't want to hear because nobody is going to try and stop those saying things everyone agrees with.
Perhaps a review of what the constitution stands for would be in order, your understanding of the liberties our soldiers have fought and died for through the ages is lacking and your statement ignorant.
as bronk said maybe after reading his and mine yours is ignorant?
-
Originally posted by Tango
Does that mean the Democratic party as well?
:rofl
-
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
well, all this talk about 'its just Re-enactment', but what if People/children in Israel
were allowed to wear the brown shirts of the Hitler Youth
and sell Nazi memorabilia?
imagine that! :rofl
They'd have a sense of humour?
-
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
well, all this talk about 'its just Re-enactment', but what if People/children in Israel
were allowed to wear the brown shirts of the Hitler Youth
and sell Nazi memorabilia?
imagine that! :rofl
they can do it for what the population gives, they would just been shunned and probably arrested for a number of reasons. what im trying to get at is if they can reanact/ say stuff this extreme why not build fake ghettos and concentration camps and dump some gas in while there at it:rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Should I go ahead and lock this now? There is no way a civil discussion about this is going to happen.
oh ye of little faith.
-
hes acttually kinda right storch this is a very hard topic to discuss with guys like sweet2th frequenting this boards
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Should I go ahead and lock this now? There is no way a civil discussion about this is going to happen.
LOL...new sig!
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Perhaps a review of what the constitution stands for would be in order, your understanding of the liberties our soldiers have fought and died for through the ages is lacking and your statement ignorant.
Well, he is Israeli...
Edit - Bronk beat me to it...
But, Evenhaim, Chairboy did outline pretty well what America's 1st Amendment is about. There once was a time when things we take for granted today were taboo to speak of. It goes both ways.
-
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
well, all this talk about 'its just Re-enactment', but what if People/children in Israel
were allowed to wear the brown shirts of the Hitler Youth
and sell Nazi memorabilia?
imagine that! :rofl
No offense, but I've never understood how Germany can be considered a free country when freedom of speech is so limited.
I understand your history... But do you really not trust yourselves that much, or what?
Not trying to be a jerk here, but I have been wondering about this for awhile.
-
vuda, i take your comment seriously into consideration and understand its just are these laws applicable today even after 200 or so years of complete and utter change in american sociiety and in the world? im pretty sure they didnt have neo nazi skin heads in the 18oos
my 2 cents
freezman
-
To rephrase the effective range of freedom of expresion when it comes to hate should be killed, why is it that the kkk can hold their yearly "rise" convention. these are events that directly effect society and can end up in the recruitment of new kkk members who will in turn preform hate crimes. I believe even holding a nazi rally or convention should be considered a hate crime by law enforcment.
once again my 2 cents
-
The bottom line is, it is Freedom of Speech, not "Freedom of Speech that corresponds to [Evenhaim's] morals." (Insert whoever - you, me, Christian, Muslim, Jew, whatever).
Saying, "[derogatory term for Jewish person]" is not a hate crime. Saying "
[derogatory term for Jewish person]" and then committing a crime against said Jewish person could very much be construed as one.
-
as much as i can see your point i cant get rid of the feeling that from any persoective but the one of the skin head its wrong .!
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
as much as i can see your point i cant get rid of the feeling that from any persoective but the one of the skin head its wrong .!
Well, here's a good way to look at the First Amendment (let's pretend you are an American)...
You have to respect the skinhead's RIGHT to say what they like. You do NOT have to respect them for ACTUALLY saying it.
-
Originally posted by Bronk
evenhaim
Senior Member
Registered: Oct 2006
Location: tel aviv , israel
Posts: 1406
---------------------------------------------
Bit over the top considering his loc?
Bronk
You may wish to read the message by Evenhaim I was responding to:
Originally posted by evenhaim
Now i know about americas 1st ammendment but wtf isnt that pushing it? this was on 102.7 kiis fm if any of you know that station
Since he was talking about the first amendment, your "correction" is pretty dang silly looking now, ain't it?
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
To rephrase the effective range of freedom of expresion when it comes to hate should be killed, why is it that the kkk can hold their yearly "rise" convention. these are events that directly effect society and can end up in the recruitment of new kkk members who will in turn preform hate crimes. I believe even holding a nazi rally or convention should be considered a hate crime by law enforcment.
once again my 2 cents
The reason why, is really very simple. Today in our culture "most" are outraged at what the KKK stands for and would like to see those types of ideas ended in our country. However, UNTIL they commit a crime they have the "RIGHT" (in our country) to speak openly and freely about what they believe, and I hope that right is never taken from them. WHY? WHY? I'll tell you why, because I'm not so foolish as to believe that I will always be a part of the majority. What I hold to be true may not always be "acceptable" by the masses. What I say, someday might be considered "Hate", and I have no desire to be oppressed or imprisoned for what I "believe" unless I commit some kind of crime.
And the very best way to ensure my continued liberty, is to fight to make sure, no one (not even racist KKK member) lose theirs.
People have came to this country for all kinds of reasons. A great many of them however came here seeking relief from oppression and persecution, not because of what they DID, but because of what they BELIEVED.
I find it a bit ironic, that "Hate" is such a terrible thing, unless of course that "Hate" is pointed at a group or belief that the masses don't take kindly to. We are told to be tolerant, but that tolerance is never extended to those that we disagree with. Don't misunderstand me, I despise what the KKK stands for. I just find the whole "Hate" and "Tolerance" thing a bit hypocritical.
I believe in tolerance. Not just Tolerance for those I agree with, but also for those that I DON'T agree with. Not a tolerance that says, I have to accept what they hold to be true, or concede it is right, or ok, but tolerance which says, they don't get their rights stripped aways because I disagree with them.
Where will the oppressed flee I wonder, when we become like the rest of the world. (Sadly we may not have to wait long to find out, we seem to be well on our way already.)
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
I'd rather keep the ties on guys like this one:
(http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/images/goeb.jpg)
When you have blurting propoganda like this:
"It is a major error to assume that England's plutocrats slipped into the war against their will or even against their intentions. The opposite is true. The English warmongers wanted the war and used all the resources at their disposal over the years to bring it about. They surely were not surprised by the war. English plutocracy had no goal other than to unleash war against Germany at the right moment, and this since Germany first began to seek once again to be a world power.
Poland really had little to do with the outbreak of war between the Reich and England. It was only a means to an end. England did not support the Polish government out of principle or for humanitarian reasons. That is clear from the fact that England gave Poland no help of any kind whatsoever when the war began. Nor did England take any measures against Russia. The opposite, in fact. The London warring clique to this day has tried to bring Russia into the campaign of aggression against Germany.
The encirclement of Germany long before the outbreak of the war was traditional English policy. From the beginning, England has always directed its main military might against Germany. It never could tolerate a strong Reich on the Continent. It justified its policy by claiming that it wanted to maintain a balance of forces in Europe."
It is dangerous. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech any more. This is the twisted way of human manipulation. When you hammer nonsense into the youth, fuel it up with youthful energy. For my part, tolerance for Nazis is zero. I do not want my children to grow up with twisted ideas from neo-nazis. (oh, I will use lower case when I refer to them).
20th century showed us enough of what racial enspired politics and propoganda could do.
-
Originally posted by Angus
For my part, tolerance for Nazis is zero. I do not want my children to grow up with twisted ideas from neo-nazis. (oh, I will use lower case when I refer to them).
20th century showed us enough of what racial enspired politics and propoganda could do.
Of course you don't want your children growing as Nazis either do I. But what if somebody DOES? Do you get to decide that for them too?
Richard Dawkins says religious instruction to children is a form of mental abuse, what happens when that becomes the prevailing thought in a country. (Well it already is in some) Dawkins clearly doesn't want his kids growing up and believe in God, so does he get to make the decision for me also?
I've seen a number of posts on this BB that believe religion is the "evil" that plagues mankind, what happens when that becomes the prevailing thought? I lose my rights to free speech?
Besides, you can not "make" anyone change their views, you can only silence them in the public arena. So in essence what is done is this:
We don't like what you believe so we are going to strip away your rights. We have no tolerance for you in-tolerance, we hate your hatred, and for the sake of the children and the betterment of society we are going to oppress you.
We have an ongoing debate in this country about "legislating morality" (and I'm NOT in favor of it myself) Oddly enough, many of the same people that are against legislating morality, are in favor of "hate speech" laws. How is that NOT legislating morality?
We should never forget, "For the betterment of society" is why the Jews were slaughtered by the Nazis in the first place, how ironic.
Lastly, I an NOT defending, Hate, Racism, Nazism, or anything like it (I'm opposed to all of them). I'm defending the rights of the individual (Respect of Persons). I believe history demonstrates that if the philosophical foundation of a nation's government is "Utilitarianism" as opposed to "Respect of Persons" that government will have a MUCH greater tendency to be oppressive to some of the minorities that it governs. Many times, brutally so.
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
"Of course you don't want your children growing as Nazis either do I. But what if somebody DOES? Do you get to decide that for them too?"
I don't want them to grow up UNDER their ideology. There has been enough of running blood exactly becase of Nazi ideology. So, screw their freedom!
-
Originally posted by Angus
I don't want them to grow up UNDER their ideology. There has been enough of running blood exactly becase of Nazi ideology. So, screw their freedom!
Like Tachus, what sprang right into my mind when reading your first post was religion.
I have to admit I am personally of the belief that some of the religious instruction in this country preaches hate and intolerance (and you can search any thread on this forum regarding gay marriage for some "eloquent" examples). However, despite my personal views, I will certainly never try and silence religion. I'll just use my own freedom of speech to speak against some parts of it. Just as I'd use my own freedom of speech to speak against Nazism or such.
As Tachus said, you can't change someone's beliefs, even if you do silence them. So why do that? By telling a Nazi they have less rights than I do, how am I acting any differently than a Nazi telling Jews that they have less rights than he?
(And, as a disclaimer, I'm not really comparing religion to Nazism. I'm just offering a more pertinent example of freedom of speech in this country).
-
Originally posted by Angus
There has been enough of running blood exactly becase of Nazi ideology. So, screw their freedom!
That's the same thing that is said about Muslims today. That's what was said about Japanese Americans during WWII when they were placed in camps in our country. It was said about the Native Americans in this country as well. It has been said about a great many peoples in different countries and in different times throughout history. All oppressed with different levels of severity.
It's truly unfortunate it's still be said today.
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
Nazism = NATIONAL-SOCIALISM. The main idea of the Nazis is preaching that a certain group of people should, because of their gender, be considered superior.
The Neo-Nazis are being caught again and again with hate-propoganda, as well as trying to fake around with their dirty background.
Now, many people on this board may call me a liberal or a nanny, but in this case I'm right old fashioned. Nazism was beaten down the hard way, it got quite some presentation of it's true core, it's modern presentators show the ways of old allright, and we should bloody well know that just "speaking" is not enough.
And, we should also perhaps consider the "rights" of those who fought against Nazism and were slain by Nazism.
(of course education is a key theme here, but I'd rather not see a Nazi-encore just in case).
-
Well, I wouldn't necessarily call you a liberal, Angus, but if you really are against Freedom of Speech, I might have to call you a nazi ;)
I have a hard time understanding how you're not "getting" this :) But I suppose that just goes to show we grew up in different places.
-
Originally posted by Angus
Nazism = NATIONAL-SOCIALISM. The main idea of the Nazis is preaching that a certain group of people should, because of their gender, be considered superior.
The Neo-Nazis are being caught again and again with hate-propoganda, as well as trying to fake around with their dirty background.
Now, many people on this board may call me a liberal or a nanny, but in this case I'm right old fashioned. Nazism was beaten down the hard way, it got quite some presentation of it's true core, it's modern presentators show the ways of old allright, and we should bloody well know that just "speaking" is not enough.
And, we should also perhaps consider the "rights" of those who fought against Nazism and were slain by Nazism.
(of course education is a key theme here, but I'd rather not see a Nazi-encore just in case).
I'm not calling you anything Angus. I understand you have passionate feelings about the issue. As i said before I do too, I despise racism in every form. I just know how quickly things can change in a country. Today it's the Nazis and the KKK, tomorrow it's the Muslims and after that it's the home schoolers teacher their kids about the Bible. I just don't like the idea of "groups" being denied the right to "believe" something, and to express those beliefs without fear of persecution. Not because I want to protect their freedom, but because I want to protect mine.
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
A Nazi has chosen to follow the path of his/her opinion.
A Moslim has chosen or been raised with his/her religion.
A coloured person, or a born jew is from race, without a choice.
Exactly there is it where I think the Nazis cross the line. They choose to hate people who they should have no trouble with, and for their race. Jew, negro, gypsy, then on to slavic. Just sick.
If you go on to specifically hot-beliver groups you have something close as well. Either hating other people for NOT having YOUR (exact) belief, or even considering them as low as the butcher's meal for that sake.
Tachus, I got your point, and Vudak, I disagree with you. The trend of Nazis has to get stomped with a heavier boot than the liberal and speaking one. But the stomping, didn't cost much of the freedom we have.
It has, after all, been done once and at great cost.
-
Originally posted by Angus
and Vudak, I disagree with you. The trend of Nazis has to get stomped with a heavier boot than the liberal and speaking one. But the stomping, didn't cost much of the freedom we have.
It has, after all, been done once and at great cost.
Well, Angus, all I can really say is you're running the risk of opening the door of unintended consequences.
I can't understand how you don't see that.
-
As much as I see everyones pov, i would like to respectfully remove me statement from the argument considering i have a biased opinion per say
-
Let the nazis preach their BS, and let everyone else know better. Just like trolls on the net, not feeding them and seeing their BS for what it is is the best solution.
In fact, not thoroughly deconstructing nazis' racist propaganda in a public way for all people to see and recognize as true so that nazis have zero authority in everyone's mind is more condemnable than letting nazis preach on a valid technicality like freedom of speech.
And "hate" is everywhere. Targeting only the nazi variety is incongruous.
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
As much as I see everyones pov, i would like to respectfully remove me statement from the argument considering i have a biased opinion per say
You know, I'm an American of Polish descent... But notice I call myself that, rather than "Polish-American." The American is what I'm proud of. The rights accorded to Americans are what I'm proud of, even if I have to extend the same rights to certain Americans that I'm not proud of.
Does that make sense? :huh
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
As much as I see everyones pov, i would like to respectfully remove me statement from the argument considering i have a biased opinion per say
We all have biased opinions :) We all have certain presuppositions that effect how we view the world around us, and life experiences that shape our thinking. (So your opinions are no more biased than the next guys)
BTW I "Get it" as far as not wanting to be forced to re-live some of the horrific things that have gone on in the past at the hands of nazis, (or other groups like them) or the fear that your children or grandchildren would be forced to do so. I have the same concerns and fears.
We just don't always agree on how to ensure it never happens.
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
Originally posted by Vudak
You know, I'm an American of Polish descent... But notice I call myself that, rather than "Polish-American." The American is what I'm proud of. The rights accorded to Americans are what I'm proud of, even if I have to extend the same rights to certain Americans that I'm not proud of.
Does that make sense? :huh
yes;)
We all have biased opinions We all have certain presuppositions that effect how we view the world around us, and life experiences that shape our thinking. (So your opinions are no more biased than the next guys)BTW I "Get it" as far as not wanting to be forced to re-live some of the horrific things that have gone on in the past at the hands of nazis, (or other groups like them) or the fear that your children or grandchildren would be forced to do so. I have the same concerns and fears.
We just don't always agree on how to ensure it never happens.
Best regards,
--Tachus
very good sum up and understandable:aok
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
You may wish to read the message by Evenhaim I was responding to:
I did.
Since he was talking about the first amendment, your "correction" is pretty dang silly looking now, ain't it?
There is a reason I only partially quoted you. You graciously pointed out how the 1st amendment protects unpopular speech.
Then you go on a rant how he's ignorant. That's why I pointed out his loc.
I just thought you could have left out that last part.
Bronk
-
Originally posted by Vudak
Well, Angus, all I can really say is you're running the risk of opening the door of unintended consequences.
I can't understand how you don't see that.
Unintended concequenses is what happened in Germany in the 30's mate.
-
Originally posted by Angus
Unintended concequenses is what happened in Germany in the 30's mate.
Have you ever heard of Mein Kampf? There wasn't anything unintented about it. Germans can claim what they like.
Anyway, I'm going to drop this now. We're not going to convince each other, and are probably just going to get each other upset ;)
-
Of course I have heard of Mein Kampf. I have studied the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party. The main essence was hammering propoganda into people's head while locking into the political systems. A neo-Nazi's dream.
Studied those as well, I was on a Neo-organization's mailing list once!
It's malicious propoganda at it's worst, and I do not see any loss of common freedom to ban that crap. They can go to their holes and email each other.
On the lighter side, I've been looking for a hilarious video (German) about the "problems" of neo Nazis. If I only could find it.
-
Ahhh, here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNP-D0qE5Vg
:D
-
Originally posted by Angus
Unintended concequenses is what happened in Germany in the 30's mate.
We know what happened, the issues is why, and how.
I don't want to comment on this to much, because quite frankly, I don't feel adequately prepared. (concerning the details of governmental structure and the overall attitude of the culture of Germany at that time in history) There are a number of questions I would ask however.
What form of government did Germany have prior to Hitler coming to power?
How did that change, if it did, after he came to power.
Could Hitler have done what he did, if there had been constitutional restraints in place? (Restrictions on power, and guarantees for certain rights and liberties)
Today would we consider Hitler's early speeches, "Hate Speech"? (This is important to consider. If we are talking about restricting speech and using the case of Hitler as grounds for this, we must know if his early speeches (during his rise to power) would have been banned. If not, then there is little support for banning "hate speech" today, with the goal of preventing a re-peat. Today for example, If someone claims that our economic woes are the result of illegal immigrants, that is not considered "hate speech", though it could still stir up animosity toward certain people groups.)
Was this a case of, the "Majority" oppressed a "Minority".
Did the culture already had a racist attitude, or was all of it generated by the Nazis? (This is important, and sometimes hard to deal with. The sad truth in this country is the KKK didn't "create" racism, it is a product of racism. As I stated I don't know about the condition of the German culture then, but I would tend to believe the same is true of the Nazis. So the question, did they "create" the problem, or were they the product of the problem.)
What other things (besides the Nazis) contributed to racism?
What would need to happen for this type of thing to occur today? (In Germany or any country for that matter)
I'm sure there are others, but those would be things I would have to research before I felt I could make any intelligent comments about the specific reasons of "Why" and "How" in Germany.
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
Originally posted by Angus
Of course I have heard of Mein Kampf. I have studied the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party. The main essence was hammering propoganda into people's head while locking into the political systems. A neo-Nazi's dream.
Studied those as well, I was on a Neo-organization's mailing list once!
It's malicious propoganda at it's worst, and I do not see any loss of common freedom to ban that crap. They can go to their holes and email each other.
On the lighter side, I've been looking for a hilarious video (German) about the "problems" of neo Nazis. If I only could find it.
In the US common freedom means nothing.
Here individual freedom is key. Common freedom is just another way to opress those whose views you do not like.
Freedom can be ugly and dirty but thats the price you pay to be free.
This thread makes me sad and worried for our future. You can not hide from the past by banning speach and thoughts, and thats what your pushing, you want the idea of nazism to die, and though I agree it has no place in the world, that is MY opionion, under the law I have no right to force that on anyone else.
That's the way it should be in a free society.
I am glad those who seem to not really understand that are not from the US.
-
angus, vudak kiss and make up (http://youtube.com/watch?v=i43fSjbEmA8) :D
-
Originally posted by Vudak
No offense, but I've never understood how Germany can be considered a free country when freedom of speech is so limited.
I understand your history... But do you really not trust yourselves that much, or what?
Vudak listen, when skinheads marching in germany today, the rest of the world,
yes the U.S. too and even some from this forum are pointing fingers at us.
But if skinheads marching elswhere in the world, especialy in the U.S. its
called free-speech?
This is such a BIG BS,
my opinion? wearing and living this Nazi **** politicaly are utterly tasteless and
disrespectful to the people who survived the Nazis and are still alive.
have a nice day
Gh0stFT
-
Second that :aok
-
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
Vudak listen, when skinheads marching in germany today, the rest of the world,
yes the U.S. too and even some from this forum are pointing fingers at us.
But if skinheads marching elswhere in the world, especialy in the U.S. its
called free-speech?
This is such a BIG BS,
my opinion? wearing and living this Nazi **** politicaly are utterly tasteless and
disrespectful to the people who survived the Nazis and are still alive.
have a nice day
Gh0stFT
I agree, but I still think they should be free to do it. Who doesnt know the Nazi were bad, only a moron would march as a modern Nazi. Why care? This just makes it so they do their crap were it can be seen instead of in secret.
-
I watched this on BBC2 dowding.
I thought the programme was singling out people with an odd hobby at first but when it got to the last 10 minutes and the night time bit I was pretty disgusted with the views of the hardcore nutjobs.
David Irving was there so it kinda showed the type of people that would be interested in going to such an event.
If the aim of the producer was to highlight Neo-nazis / combat 18 displaying their views in broad daylight in a field in Kent then he achieved his objective.
-
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
Vudak listen, when skinheads marching in germany today, the rest of the world,
yes the U.S. too and even some from this forum are pointing fingers at us.
But if skinheads marching elswhere in the world, especialy in the U.S. its
called free-speech?
This is such a BIG BS,
my opinion? wearing and living this Nazi **** politicaly are utterly tasteless and
disrespectful to the people who survived the Nazis and are still alive.
have a nice day
Gh0stFT
First of all, Storch, I wish they had a middle finger smiley :D
I was having one of those headaches earlier this morning and didn't feel like replying then, no kisses necessary ;)
Second of all, Ghost, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone here... But I believe that ALL human beings, no matter how much I personally despise them, are entitled to certain rights, one of the main ones being Freedom of Speech...
So, in effect, for me to be ok with denying anyone that freedom, you'd first have to dehumanize them... And I challenge you to do this without becoming in some small way what you so detest. If a nazi isn't a human, what is he then? Cattle? I trust you see the irony.
It is, I'll admit, a somewhat abstract thought that can be hard to grasp. I can see, and understand, how some people would say, "Well how can you defend these people in any way?"
Remember the phrase attributed to Voltaire? "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
A lot of people have died for that notion so that I have never had to empathize with Tacitus: "It is the rare fortune of these days that a man may think what he likes and say what he thinks."
That pretty much sums it up.
-
Tacitus also said, "The desire for security, stands against every great and noble cause."
To often it seems men are willing to trade, not only their liberty, but the liberty of others for security. We talk "spending" our grandchildren's future because of our national debt. That is a trifle thing compared to sacrificing their liberty for our security.
To the issue of "rights" is should be noted, that a "Right" can NOT be given or granted by a government, it can only be TAKEN. The very nature of the term implies this.
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
Well, the liberty of anyone encouraging violent acts against people of a certain colour or origin is in my mind questionable, as well as being proved in history as ...quite brutal.
Where does the line cross. Do I have all rights I want to have. Like shooting you dead because I think you're being silly?
Where are My rights in not being harassed and spat at because of my colour or ancestory?
As for the attitude of Nazis and their liberty of promoting their propoganda:
"I agree, but I still think they should be free to do it"
This is what brought them around.
P.S. I am actually both rather blond(ish) and with blue eyes. So It's not a coloured person's heated responce FYI.
-
Originally posted by Angus
This is what brought them around.
Once upon a time, abolitionists in America were a minority.
Who are you to say that you should be free to express your views, but someone else shouldn't?
You might not have all the rights that you want to have, but it's important that you have the same rights as me.
-
I belive you loose less "liberty" by holding a stomping-boot on nazis than you do by letting them loose with their rount-ups and propoganda.
BTW, all the Nazi propoganda I got by mail (not e-mail, but snail-mail-prints) was direct translations of U.S. Neo-Nazi stuff. They even sent me a picture of Hitler with his birthday cake (Swastika cream dressing)
This is not about abolionism. This is about where to draw a line of HATE/IGNORANCE/BLAMING-related propoganda.
This brought us the second world war. The Nazis got stomped out, but it left a lot of dead. BTW, the Japs had similar thoughts of race.....
They got stomped slowly, while they got rooted in nicely before all hell got loose, - and the dead of the deal were mostly young guys and innocents.
Young guys of Nazi Germany (Of which I happen to know a few personally), the cream of many European a state, Millions of Jews (Which Neo-Nazis try to haggle down in the numbers), 22 MILLIONS of Russians (where areth though, Boroda), etc etc.
Anyway, from that rampaging of history, tell me Vudak:
Do you think there is any reason to try to keep Western-World Neo-Nazism at bay?
Because...it will set this debate where it belongs...maybe....
-
Originally posted by Angus
Do you think there is any reason to try to keep Western-World Neo-Nazism at bay?
Because...it will set this debate where it belongs...maybe....
Yes, Angus, of course. But I think the way to do that is to exercise my Freedom of Speech to speak out against their freely expressed views.
I don't think saying that I can do something (think and speak how I like), but that they can't will accomplish anything besides making me a bit more like the very people I despise.
What's next? Should I tell them they can't drink from the same water fountains?
It all comes down to a matter of equality, Angus, but that's a very difficult concept for many people to grasp the true meaning of.
-
Originally posted by Angus
Well, the liberty of anyone encouraging violent acts against people of a certain colour or origin is in my mind questionable, as well as being proved in history as ...quite brutal.
Where does the line cross.
That is the question, and it's not any easy one.
In the end we view this from different ends of the spectrum.
Since we don't start from the same place, we're not likely end up in the same place.
Your want to prevent a specific minority from becoming the majority, because the new majority would oppress minorities.
You want to ensure this by removing the rights of the minority. (This seems ironic)
I want to prevent any majority from oppressing a minority.
I want to ensure that doesn't happen by ensuring that no minority is not stripped of it's rights.
I'm glad I live in America an not Germany.
You're probably glad you don't live in America.
I'm happy, your happy, were all happy.
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
End point???? A second chance perhaps?
The "screw-up" end point happens to be the same too often.
BEFORE:
The Nazi ideology had their go. Firstly it brought a target group to prey and blame all upon,
It brought a very violent war in the western world. It brought genocide never topped. It brought total war between civilized nations, and this time it was not all about politics.
AFTER:
It brings denialism of previous attrocities. It re-introduces the old ideology of racism. It re-introduces the target groups to blame upon. It is already in the heavily armed and violent category in the USA. And in the "regulation tortured Europe" you have still the liberty (which I even doubt you have in the USA) of THOUSANDS of NAZIS marching through cities to protest allied attrocities (RAF and USSAF) like Dresden.
German law will probably get them busted for making a Hitler's salute, - however rounding up is just rounding up.
Would you belive in 3000 tattooed Neo-Nazis getting through an American city without trouble, or would you think they would be cheered? All a matter of a propoganda, and history based propoganda works best on those who don't know squat about history.
("Nazis = cool" Almost made Germany the masters of the world. >"If not for the dumb Brits and the Commies, it might have worked. Jews out, Negros out, etc etc")
Wanna have this blurting into your kid's ears?
-
BTW, - as an official freedom, am I right that exposed titties are still banned on open TV channels in the USA?
And wasn't the TV-series "Soap" kicked out of the way of public TV by "The Moral Majority"?
I'd kick the Nazi stuff out and watch "Soap" and Topless......
-
Angus, I'm shaking my head here. You just aren't getting the basic points I've been reiterating in every reply.
Let's just leave it at what Tachus said:
"I'm glad I live in America an not Germany.
You're probably glad you don't live in America.
I'm happy, your happy, were all happy."
-
Originally posted by Angus
End point???? A second chance perhaps?
The "screw-up" end point happens to be the same too often.
BEFORE:
The Nazi ideology had their go. Firstly it brought a target group to prey and blame all upon,
It brought a very violent war in the western world. It brought genocide never topped. It brought total war between civilized nations, and this time it was not all about politics.
AFTER:
It brings denialism of previous attrocities. It re-introduces the old ideology of racism. It re-introduces the target groups to blame upon. It is already in the heavily armed and violent category in the USA. And in the "regulation tortured Europe" you have still the liberty (which I even doubt you have in the USA) of THOUSANDS of NAZIS marching through cities to protest allied attrocities (RAF and USSAF) like Dresden.
German law will probably get them busted for making a Hitler's salute, - however rounding up is just rounding up.
Would you belive in 3000 tattooed Neo-Nazis getting through an American city without trouble, or would you think they would be cheered? All a matter of a propoganda, and history based propoganda works best on those who don't know squat about history.
("Nazis = cool" Almost made Germany the masters of the world. >"If not for the dumb Brits and the Commies, it might have worked. Jews out, Negros out, etc etc")
Wanna have this blurting into your kid's ears?
Do you have no faith at all in your neighbors being good people? Honestly, do you think if YOU listened to Nazi propaganda for days on end would it effect you? You KNOW its BS, most normal good people do, even kids.
I know it wouldn't effect me, hell and I even heard some minor stuff growing up from my grandparents. I do not for a second think there is any effective difference between the races beyond the superficial appearance factor.
Why if you feel the same, and I would hope you do, would you think your neighbors or the general populace would be any more likely to fall for this tired old BS?
The ones who do are for the most part loser with issues, they type who would end up in prison for something at somepoint. Its pretty rare for a normal person to just go Neo Nazi, I have never met one who didn't start out with a ****ed up family.
Society does not need to be protected by restricting our rights further then they are. I do not want the government to protect me from neo nazi propaganda, I can do that on my own. As can just about any normal person.
I do want my government to protect me from their violence though. My government is fairly good at this. From what I understand the klan was infiltrated very badly and is now a joke. Neo nazi have always been a joke and I am sure the FBI has them infiltrated as well. If they ever become a threat the FBI will take care of it like they did with the Klan.
This thread and the gun thread have one similarity in reference to you Angus. My impression from you on this board is your a good guy, your concerned about the world and want to make it a better place. I would never worry about a guy like you as my neighbor, and that would include knowing you had an arsenal similar to mine. I know several of my neighbor own firearms. The NRA stickers give them away, and that makes me more comfortable not less. See I trust my neighbors to be people like me, who just want to get through life as happy as they can. I am not a thief, not a vandal or litter bug, I smile and wave and talk to them, they do the same. I trust that they will be living their lives like I live mine and they wont mess with me. I don't worry about them at all.
It sounds to me like this is where we differ, you seem to be worried that the normal everyday guy like you, who has similar concerns and wants for his family and is a good guy is somehow going to change when he gets a gun. That the gun is going to take good people who do not break the law and make them murderers. It's just not the case.
Now if you trusted your neighbors, and with rules that require gun safes for firearms, why would you care if your neighbor got an AR-15 or a Semi Auto Ak, why restrict people who don't commit crimes?
Really go take a close look at some of the numbers people Like Charon have posted in the past. Law abiding gun owners do not break the law. In the states we issue concealed carry permits to people easily, there are almost no cases of them doing anything to get the permits revokes that involved shooting someone.
Your country does not have gun crime because of its people. Because they are all mostly like you, and just want to live their live in peace. The US, has problem you do not. Hell you could probably issue every law abiding citizen with no history of mental disease a machine gun and you crime rate wouldn't change. As long as your economy keeps people working.
Maybe you should think about your fellow man a bit and trust him more, they are no more likely to be swayed by neo nazi bull**** then you are. If thats the case, then restricting a fundamentally important right like free speech is not needed, and you maybe can understand why I think its is such an awful idea.
-
To put in an understandable way:
Ok, we don't like Nazis. They are the scourge of the world. They cause all our problems. Ok, let's restrict what they can say. Well, now we have a few problems. Let's put them in ghettos now. Ok, they are still around, and might cause problems to our ways. Well, let's make them work their lives away in a concentration camp. Not solving the problem, Nazi's are still there. Ok, put them in gas chambers..... oh, wait, didn't the Nazis do this? Hmmmm..... in our urge to clear the world of Nazis and make everything good and unoppressed, we have now become oppressors and Nazis ourselves. We are what we were fighting. We must do the same to ourselves now. But we don't want to do that, now do we? So, what do we do? We don't oppress anybody. We let them live their way, we live ours. We aren't influenced by them. We are smart enough not to listen and let ourselves be misguided by them. We know where it will lead. The same place it began. Freedom of Speech only if goes your way isn't Freedom. It's oppression. The thing we started out fighting is what we have become. I beleive GtoRA2 got it right in his last post.
-
I just wish the Anti-Nazis would stop acting like Nazis in trying to "protect" us from ... the freedom to speak our mind. Who gets to chose what views and ideas we need to be "protected " against? If you ban even one single word or idea then there is no freedom of speech at all, and if you think that limiting personal freedoms is a good thing then you are just as big an enemy of freedom and an enemy of mine as the skinhead idiots. In fact you are a bigger threat to freedom than the Nazis since you are not as obviously oppressive as they are.
-
Originally posted by Viking
I just wish the Anti-Nazis would stop acting like Nazis in trying to "protect" us from ... the freedom to speak our mind. Who gets to chose what views and ideas we need to be "protected " against?
The thought police.
The difference between the neo-nazi idiots speading their hatred filled rhetoric and the government policing what we can think and say is quite apparent to me.
I think I can tolerate a bunch of brown shirted idiots, as long as they do not have the force of law behind them.
-
Originally posted by Viking
I just wish the Anti-Nazis would stop acting like Nazis in trying to "protect" us from ... the freedom to speak our mind. Who gets to chose what views and ideas we need to be "protected " against? If you ban even one single word or idea then there is no freedom of speech at all, and if you think that limiting personal freedoms is a good thing then you are just as big an enemy of freedom and an enemy of mine as the skinhead idiots. In fact you are a bigger threat to freedom than the Nazis since you are not as obviously oppressive as they are.
sheesh kitty you could become a true american by simply possessing a thought process like this.
-
Ehhh...Viking:
Nazis had their go at their goal and got...the red card. They're building up again, and mostly consist of idiots, - (your wording), apart from the fanatics with a mind who stand behind their buildup.
Now that reminds me a little of how they got registered into the history books in the first place. And the naughty parts of history are some we need to learn from so that they do not repeat themselves.
Maybe the only thing we learn from history is the we don't learn from history. But that counts for the idiots, and some idiots have power and many can be recruited into "Waves"
HoldenMcGroin:
"I think I can tolerate a bunch of brown shirted idiots, as long as they do not have the force of law behind them."
Exactly there. They started off as brown skirted idiots. With thuggy methods and "sort of" through Democracy they did indeed grab the force of law in a big country. And then they showed their true nature to the world.
BTW, maybe my definition, but IMHO you have Neo Nazis of all sorts. The main term is the hitler-worshipping neo Nazi. Then you have the foreign-haters, and colour haters, religion based haters etc. I have a problem with them by putting them all under the hat of "nazi". Maybe I should use another word?
-
Angus, maybe you should explain exactly how you propose to deal with this issue?
Are you talking about banning public gatherings?
Banning certain clothing?
Banning parts of their speech? (Which parts, what is ok to say, and what's not)
Banning all of their speech?
Banning their literature?
How will you ensure, these bans are "NEVER" applied to other groups?
How do you define "Hate" as in hate based religion. (Is saying something is immoral, Hate? Is quoting a passage from the a religious book considered Hate?)
Is using an offensive term when referring a certain people group Hate?
Saying something should be banned is easy, defining it in practical terms and ensuring that those bans are confined to those terms in the future are not.
I can see the day, when someone denounces our welfare state, and people stand up and say, "You're inciting hatred toward those on welfare, you can't say that"
There are already cases in both Canada and the UK where someone has said an action is immoral and they are charge with inciting the public or a hate crime.
BTW, I should point out, though a person has a right to free speech our society does do a certain amount of self policing. Imus lost his job because of offensive racial language. I'm not aware of any radio stations playing KKK or Nazi call in talk shows. (Because the public outcry would doom the radio station.) Most employers do not tolerate a racist attitude in the work place (nor sexist) We had a sports announcer get in trouble (with the public) because he said women golfers would never be great because there "boobs" get in the way. Howard Cosell, was rake across the coals because he said, "That monkey can really get loose" while referring to the black receiver. (Many aren't sure he meant it in a negative way) Rush lost his job at ESPN because he said he thought McNabb was over hyped by the media because he was black. (He was making an observation, and lost his job)
So in our case I suppose, a certain amount of "speech" is suppressed by our culture. If a person is going to be ridiculed or lose their job, they tend not be speak to freely. But there is a big difference between that and governmental legislation that restricts that speech.
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
What McGroin said...
-
The very best way that I would know of to promote Nazi , and similar power monger groups, and to give it new rise would be to squash their freedom of speech by making laws/bans in an attempt to totaly squash them. At that time, you have in fact, became the Nazi promoter by implementing their tactics and views.
You have taken a very big step towards promotion of their beliefs at that time. You have taken a chunk of your own freedom in the process and given more power to a governing body and taken the majority factor way.
You have created and promoted the taking away of the very freedoms that will keep history from repeating itself. Without freedom and the freely giving up and promoting such practices you will defeat yourself as a country....as a world in general.
Hitler`s rule, power and the Nazi regime were not just about racism. The rise came slowly, intentionaly , with a very well laid out plan. Racism was used as a banner to rally a people and lull them into giving up all of their rights and turning their future over to an all powerful governing body, over a period of years. The very first steps , which started slowly and very subtle were to coerce people into turning their fate and their destiny as a country over to a body of power other than the people themselves. Slowly at first, then gaining speed as power was increased by the taking and chipping at individual freedoms, but most importantly, taking away any chance of the people to defend themselves and others from an all governing, all powerful, all ruling body. By the time the people could actualy see the light and once again started thinking for themselves, it was too late. They were at the total mercy of a governing body of which they themselves had promoted and been lulled into believing had their best interests in mind . You either kept quiet, towed the line or you were eliminated. There were no options at that point. No voice. No freedom . No hope. It was too late for the voice and power of the people. They had none. They had it taken away from them , given it up slowly, but most certainly to the point of no return.
It is not the Neo-Nazi clowns in the public eye , making morons of themselves that is the biggest enemy. They defeat themselves in the public eye.
The biggest enemy is the silent, hidden powers who are slowly , but surely guiding the populations into relinquishing their freedom of speech, their voice and giving up the very things that can defend a people against an all powerful , all governing body other than the people themselves.
WE are our own worst enemy. WE are letting it happen. WE have and are still letting our rights be taken away and in a lot of cases, as seen here on this board, more than willing to fall into an age old trap.
Give up your freedom, and your right to defend against such things , give up or have taken away from you your power and tools of defense as a people and you are at the mercy of something that you allowed to freely dominate you.
-
what jackal said. :aok
-
What Tachus said.
Wait, that's me.... no wonder I was so impressed by those posts.
--Tachus
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
The very best way that I would know of to promote Nazi , and similar power monger groups, and to give it new rise would be to squash their freedom of speech by making laws/bans in an attempt to totaly squash them. At that time, you have in fact, became the Nazi promoter by implementing their tactics and views.
You have taken a very big step towards promotion of their beliefs at that time. You have taken a chunk of your own freedom in the process and given more power to a governing body and taken the majority factor way.
You have created and promoted the taking away of the very freedoms that will keep history from repeating itself. Without freedom and the freely giving up and promoting such practices you will defeat yourself as a country....as a world in general.
Hitler`s rule, power and the Nazi regime were not just about racism. The rise came slowly, intentionaly , with a very well laid out plan. Racism was used as a banner to rally a people and lull them into giving up all of their rights and turning their future over to an all powerful governing body, over a period of years. The very first steps , which started slowly and very subtle were to coerce people into turning their fate and their destiny as a country over to a body of power other than the people themselves. Slowly at first, then gaining speed as power was increased by the taking and chipping at individual freedoms, but most importantly, taking away any chance of the people to defend themselves and others from an all governing, all powerful, all ruling body. By the time the people could actualy see the light and once again started thinking for themselves, it was too late. They were at the total mercy of a governing body of which they themselves had promoted and been lulled into believing had their best interests in mind . You either kept quiet, towed the line or you were eliminated. There were no options at that point. No voice. No freedom . No hope. It was too late for the voice and power of the people. They had none. They had it taken away from them , given it up slowly, but most certainly to the point of no return.
It is not the Neo-Nazi clowns in the public eye , making morons of themselves that is the biggest enemy. They defeat themselves in the public eye.
The biggest enemy is the silent, hidden powers who are slowly , but surely guiding the populations into relinquishing their freedom of speech, their voice and giving up the very things that can defend a people against an all powerful , all governing body other than the people themselves.
WE are our own worst enemy. WE are letting it happen. WE have and are still letting our rights be taken away and in a lot of cases, as seen here on this board, more than willing to fall into an age old trap.
Give up your freedom, and your right to defend against such things , give up or have taken away from you your power and tools of defense as a people and you are at the mercy of something that you allowed to freely dominate you.
My thoughts exactly.
-
Are you saying that there is NO line for what is banned?
Would you like KKK to have lectures in the public?
Of course there is a line, - or LINES.
Some are drawn by the public. Try driving a car in redneck country with "Hillary for President" painted on the side!
(Or I'm Bi for that sake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbkdnb4oLFc
:D
And other are drawn by the law. Be it seatbelts, violence, fraud, and then to the tricky line of manipulation.
Jackal, even you draw the line somewhere.
Do you want Gay promotion or education in school for your children?
Do you want Marching Nazis with an open press endlessly preaching the "Jewish world conspiracy" or "Negros are inferior" spiced with "The Holocaust never happened, it was all allied propoganda"
You want a HJ trend in schools? Swastika tatto on yer grandkids?
It was the freedom of speech, manipulated in a most cunning way together with complete crime that built the springboard for Nazi-controlled Germany.
Maybe the USA is today a better built, educated and informed country than pre-war Germany, so this is no risk, but with a high percentage of the adult population that won't know where to find the USA on a map, I tend to think not.
That's not all, for neo-nazism spreads from places where it thrives. Most of the propoganda I used to get through my mailbox was straight translations from U.S. magazines. Today I am meeting screwed-up foreign-haters, - neo Nazi dabblers that have been fed with this stuff and don't know squat about history.
So, it boils down to the law, or public responce. I would like to punch these guys too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqfFCGPAzYA
-
Originally posted by Angus
Are you saying that there is NO line for what is banned?
Would you like KKK to have lectures in the public?
Of course there is a line, - or LINES.
Some are drawn by the public. Try driving a car in redneck country with "Hillary for President" painted on the side!
(Or I'm Bi for that sake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbkdnb4oLFc
:D
And other are drawn by the law. Be it seatbelts, violence, fraud, and then to the tricky line of manipulation.
Jackal, even you draw the line somewhere.
Do you want Gay promotion or education in school for your children?
Do you want Marching Nazis with an open press endlessly preaching the "Jewish world conspiracy" or "Negros are inferior" spiced with "The Holocaust never happened, it was all allied propoganda"
You want a HJ trend in schools? Swastika tatto on yer grandkids?
It was the freedom of speech, manipulated in a most cunning way together with complete crime that built the springboard for Nazi-controlled Germany.
Maybe the USA is today a better built, educated and informed country than pre-war Germany, so this is no risk, but with a high percentage of the adult population that won't know where to find the USA on a map, I tend to think not.
That's not all, for neo-nazism spreads from places where it thrives. Most of the propoganda I used to get through my mailbox was straight translations from U.S. magazines. Today I am meeting screwed-up foreign-haters, - neo Nazi dabblers that have been fed with this stuff and don't know squat about history.
So, it boils down to the law, or public responce. I would like to punch these guys too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqfFCGPAzYA
When you spoke about the need for lines, you used items that are irrelevant to the topic of free speech to support your position. Me shooting my neighbor is different from me saying he's an idiot.
I wish you (or someone) would address some of the items I posted earlier. Please define, what, who and when you would suppress free speech, and explain how you will ensure the power you have granted the government in this area will not be latter abused.
Just saying, they should be stopped, over and over again, really doesn't address any of the issues of concerns that others have raised about the oppressiveness of government or the loss of future rights. Furthermore, there is little reason to believe, that stripping away their rights would even achieve the desired goal.
Perhaps, our views are so different, because I already see my right to free speech and freedom of religion under attack. There is already a shift away from individual liberty in our country and the best way to prevent a great loss of liberty is to deny even a small loss to take place.
Best regards,
--Tachus
-
Originally posted by Angus
Are you saying that there is NO line for what is banned?
With regard to the freedom of speech and expression there should be no "line".
Originally posted by Angus
Would you like KKK to have lectures in the public?
Yes. And yes to all other examples you care to offer. Banning words and expression is fundamentally wrong in every way.
If a person (Nazi or otherwise) offends someone publicly the offended party can sue. The is NO need for banning speech since current laws protect anyone who is verbally attacked or offended in public.
Angus, your thinking on this subject is disturbing to me. I'd rather endure daily Nazi-marches in my street than live under your idea of "justice".
-
Yes, Angus, if only those were taken as seriously as they should be.. as the BS they are for the most part. Anyone with common sense would realize they are full of it. They would soon enough have gotten everyone fed up enough that they'd get petitioned out of public sight and sound like junk mail out of mailboxes.
-
Originally posted by Angus
Are you saying that there is NO line for what is banned?
The words Ban/Banned are a farce in themselves. There is no such workable reality. Promotion of a cause, relieving the law abiding of any recourse and handing the odds over to the very groups you are trying to guard against would be my definition.
Would you like KKK to have lectures in the public?
Don`t know how it is in your country Angus, but here the KKK can and do give public lectures. In most cities a permit is required for the public gathering.
I saw the reverse side to this in our county seat a few years back. A church with a black congregation was burned. Then another in a small period of time. The local press was all over this when black groups began saying that this was race related and the churches were burned by whites in an attempt to scare and run out the black community. It snowballed.
The whole county was on the verge of a race war. Very explosive.
The KKK applied for and received a permit for a public gathering and speech. The head speaker for the KKK was on the top step of the court house giving his speech and expressing his belief that these incidents were not done by whites, but instead was an attempt by militant black organizations , of other regions to gain access, support and backing by the local community. He had some very persuading evidence.
The streets surrounding the courthouse were blocked of to allow those that wished to attend a place to view and listen. It was very orderly. No trouble,etc.
At the same time as this was taking place, on the other end of town, Black Panthers and other known militant groups had arrived , in force, heavily armed, openly brandishing, threatening to burn the entire town down. No permit. No regard for the community. An attempt to cause big trouble and glean more press attention.
Law enforcement from all surrounding areas had to be called in to keep a race war from breaking out.
In the end it was found that a black youth with some mental problems had done the arsons.
It`s a two edged sword bud.
Try driving a car in redneck country with "Hillary for President" painted on the side!
LOL I don`t know where you would be able to locate an area more "redneck" than my area. Hillary promotions are in place.........along with a long list of others.
And other are drawn by the law. Be it seatbelts, violence, fraud, and then to the tricky line of manipulation.
Here, the law is supposed to be decided by the people themselves.
You speak of law as if it is supposed to be some magical, all knowing, all seeing entity.
Jackal, even you draw the line somewhere.
I draw my line by my beliefs. I excercise my line by freedom of speech and the ability to do so.
Do you want Gay promotion or education in school for your children?
Do I want? It is being done on an everyday basis. It is being fought against with the same tool that allows it to be done..........freedom of speech and the right to voice an opposing opinion. Without it there is no balance, no solution.
Do you want Marching Nazis with an open press endlessly preaching the "Jewish world conspiracy" or "Negros are inferior" spiced with "The Holocaust never happened, it was all allied propoganda"
I would much rather them be in the public eye, as they are allowed to do now, making public fools of themselves, defeating themselves and allowing the public to see what they really are and are about than some of the dangerous groups that are smart enough to stay in the shadows and accomplish their goals of inflicting death and terror on a gullible and naive public.
The marching Nazis defeat themselves in the public eye. They are a non issue to a thinking , free society, governed by the people. Freedom of speech allows them to be spoken out against and to educate others as to their cause. There will always be hate and violence between different groups of people, whether it be internaly, race related or country against country. If people are capable to defend against their enemies and threats as a group or country they can do so IF they do not have their freedom and tools to do so taken away or naive enough to relinquish their power to do so to a totalitarian , all powerful, governing body. Trust in yourself and your countrymen to make choices for themselves and their country without heavy handed government is the key. If you believe that you and your countrymen cannot be trusted, you are dooming yourself and others to being under the power of something you have no input, no control over.
Swastika tatto on yer grandkids?
I have absolutely no fear or worries of my grandkids having a swastika tattoo. They have parents and grandparents who have taken the time to educate them. I trust in their parents and us as grandparents to have done our job in this field. They also have great respect and appreciation for my late Dad, their Grandad and his efforts and sacrifices in the fight against Nazi rule.
We have taken the time to teach them. Ourselves.
Some of my grandkids will most certainly have tattoos. No doubt. They think their Popaw is cool. :)
It was the freedom of speech, manipulated in a most cunning way together with complete crime that built the springboard for Nazi-controlled Germany.
It was the slow, well thought out , long term plan to take away freedom of speech, a voice, an input from the people and the power to defend against it that was the spring board for Nazi controlled Germany.
When you have your freedom , voice and power as a people taken away from you or you are bedazzled enough to relinquish the peoples rights freely under the notion that your best interests will be fairly dealt with, you are helpless.
Maybe the USA is today a better built, educated and informed country than pre-war Germany, so this is no risk, but with a high percentage of the adult population that won't know where to find the USA on a map, I tend to think not.
Well......speaking from a USA perspective, if there is a high percentage of an adult population that don`t know where to find the USA on a map, then we have no fear or worries from them.
That's not all, for neo-nazism spreads from places where it thrives.
It is not allowed and does not thrive in locations where people have a voice and the freedom to use it. It could only thrive where the people have no rights or means to speak out against and defend against it.
Most of the propoganda I used to get through my mailbox was straight translations from U.S. magazines.
That doesn`t seem to be a problem here. Only the clowns themselves read the things.
Maybe a good Icelandic ban on U.S. imported books would be the answer . :)
A good book burning and witch hunt would be other alternatives. I`m sure the people of Iceland will be swayed and go the way of the Nazi due to some idiotic reading material.
Do you not have enough faith in yourself and your countrymen to make stable and educated decisions?
You truly amaze me at how much you seem to care about the world and it`s people, then on the reverse wish to give authority to anyone other than the people themselves.
Today I am meeting screwed-up foreign-haters, - neo Nazi dabblers that have been fed with this stuff and don't know squat about history.
Welcome to the world Angus. Enjoy your stay. You seem to be quite capable and informed enough to ward off their hypnotic powers of suggestion.
You do not need a ban or the outlawing of these groups. You don`t need to give up your freedom to accomplish their goals. You have clearly made up your mind on the subject against what they stand for. Let them keep their freedom of speech. They make public fools of themselves. Keep yours also. Use it to educate others.
-
Damn, Jackal, very nicely said :aok
-
Very well said Jackal, but I don't think it will help Angus understand what we are saying any better. He is stuck with the notion a completely controlling government is a good government, and nobody can be trusted other than himself.
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Snip
PWNED
:aok
Bronk
-
Originally posted by McFarland
Very well said Jackal, but I don't think it will help Angus understand what we are saying any better. He is stuck with the notion a completely controlling government is a good government, and nobody can be trusted other than himself.
Heehee.
Boom. A good Nazi :D
-
lol angus.
yep the only good nazi is a dead nazi, but i gotta agree with the others that giving discretion to authoritarian rule as to who has the right to freedom of speech and who doesnt just to silence these scumbags would be a big mistake. i gotta add though that my opinion is based on my own environment and that having watched the euros largely sit on their hands while innocents were rounded-up and slaughtered in their own backyard as recently as the 1990s i can appreciate your point of view.
-
So, who here has had their present family attacked by neo-nazis? Repeatedly fought skinheads themselves in the street, on their way home at night or on weekend trips in the country side etc? Had to grow up through a dozen proudly racist teachers giving you **** and their like-skinned students advice on how to deal with blackies, etc?
Are you going to refute Jackal or just let it slide, Angus?
my opinion? wearing and living this Nazi **** politicaly are utterly tasteless and
disrespectful to the people who survived the Nazis and are still alive.
"I dont agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
- guess who..
-
Had a Nazi in my service once. Cocky bugger. He informed me that the modern German economical problems were due to high costs because of the Jews. (German guy)
No fights though, he didn't fancy my handstrength I think. Anyway, I ended up sacking the fellow.
Anyway, it's the line. And giving up the Jostle with Jackal, - noooo. Not untill Wednesday night when I leave for Germany, to experience the strict and suffocating no-human-right Eurolands.
Jackal had a very nice reply. I looked at my post and realized afterwards that it was a sort of a bait, - not just a question of opinion of where to draw the line, which it was meant to be. Anyway, he swallowed it with hook and sinker. I will get back later, for on this sunday, I am doing harvest.
-
Similarly you should skip the bait and deal with the hook and sinker of Jackal and others' replies, not the Euro-American flag waving but the point that Nazis are no harm if the rest of the population have their brains in working order.
Have fun out at sea.
-
Originally posted by moot
So, who here has had their present family attacked by neo-nazis? Repeatedly fought skinheads themselves in the street, on their way home at night or on weekend trips in the country side etc?
Me.
Because I can"t stand nazi bastards a good nazi is a dead nazi.
I never started the fight myself .I just mentioned the long list their genetic deficiencies and congenital stupidity.
-
I got better grades than them and took their girlfriends or just happened to walk their territory... Voltaire's words still trump any sort of vengeance, though.
I can stand nazis because they are well within the realms of humanity. Far inland :D
-
Others have said it better but I'll still weigh in here. Freedom of speech is the best defense against nazis and other socialists who would relieve us our liberties to establish order as they believe best.
-
Originally posted by straffo
I never started the fight myself. I just mentioned the long list their genetic deficiencies and congenital stupidity.
I hope you kicked him in the nut... it's genetics you know
Adolf Hitler's right testicle is hidden in the Royal Albert Hall, London, according to a new book by American author Dan Breun.
The book, entitled The Hitler Testicle Code, bases a fictionalized story around a popular conspiracy theory, dating back to 1932, which suggests the reason Hitler turned to evil was because he was 'only firing on one of his love cylinders'.
The author says he has evidence that proves one of Adolf Hitler's testicles has been hidden by British secret service agents in the Albert Hall for over 60 years.
The origins of the conspiracy can be found in a war time school playground song:
Wartime song,
(1st Verse) Hitler, he's only got one ball,
Goering has two but they are small,
Himmler had something simmler,
But poor old Goebbels has no balls at all.
(4th Verse) Hitler has only got one ball,
The other is in the Albert Hall.
His mother, the dirty bugger,
Cut it off when he was small.
Proof, says Dan Breun, that Hitler was a Unitesti
Using the latest sonar techniques a 3" by 3" crypt has been located underneath the floor of the Albert Hall. This was sealed in 1942 by the British secret service fearing that Nazi loyalists would attempt to find the testicle in an attempt to grow another Hitler, according to Breun.
Conservationists refuse permission to dig down into the vault to find what is inside this mini crypt.
Other evidence in The Hitler Testicle Code
1) Albert Hall, and Adolf Hitler both share the same initials: AH
2) There is no photographic evidence that Hitler had two testicles.
3) hitler when spelled backwards is reltih. When encrypted using a German wartime cryptograph this translates to Albert Nut.
4) The painting Mona Lisa is Adolf Hitler without the mustache.
-
Originally posted by Angus
Jackal had a very nice reply. I looked at my post and realized afterwards that it was a sort of a bait, - not just a question of opinion of where to draw the line, which it was meant to be. Anyway, he swallowed it with hook and sinker. I will get back later, for on this sunday, I am doing harvest.
If you can consider that bait, then I will assure you I will take it most of the time when it includes freedom of speech or loss/giving up of freedom in any form.
As for the-----> BOOM! :rofl I will be sending a bill for the Windex and paper towels shortly.
Be safe on the harvest bro.
-
Originally posted by McFarland
Very well said Jackal, but I don't think it will help Angus understand what we are saying any better. He is stuck with the notion a completely controlling government is a good government, and nobody can be trusted other than himself.
I took some time before replying to this and thought it over. Why? Mostly , I think that it is the first time that you have posted something that I had to give some real thought . Well done.
I can`t totaly agree with this. I think it doesn`t explain the situation, and I am not trying to speak for Angus, but will give it a shot as to how I view it.
I believe Angus is now beginning to see things come about in his country, on a small scale, that we have had to deal with and been in constant contact with for most of our lives. Even with the small percentage of total world immigration (0.01) in Angus`s country he has noticed the input and is frustrated with some of the things it has brought. That is obvious from his own posts. There will be more as time goes by.
I believe Angus is trying to figure out how things as this should be dealt with in his country and others. The only way that has been known up to this point is to deal with things with the cards that have been dealt to the people.
Hopefully it will be realized that they are and have been playing with a stacked deck. A fresh deck is needed .
We , here in the U.S. , have let our deck be tampered with also. I only hope it is not to late to set things straight and give the power of laws/government back to the people, as it should be.
-
Thanks for that clarification Jackal, I hadn't thought of it that way, I looked with an old American point of view.
-
Freedom of speech means we have to ban....SKUZZY :D
btw WHO OF YOU WERE IN THE WOMEN'S RIGHT'S THREAD? I seem to recall some other angles of freedom there.
And as for the law, the constitution that gives you rights, is law. Unchanged AFAIK for a long time it sure seems to have some flexibility in interpretion.
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
I took some time before replying to this and thought it over. Why? Mostly , I think that it is the first time that you have posted something that I had to give some real thought . Well done.
I can`t totaly agree with this. I think it doesn`t explain the situation, and I am not trying to speak for Angus, but will give it a shot as to how I view it.
I believe Angus is now beginning to see things come about in his country, on a small scale, that we have had to deal with and been in constant contact with for most of our lives. Even with the small percentage of total world immigration (0.01) in Angus`s country he has noticed the input and is frustrated with some of the things it has brought. That is obvious from his own posts. There will be more as time goes by.
I believe Angus is trying to figure out how things as this should be dealt with in his country and others. The only way that has been known up to this point is to deal with things with the cards that have been dealt to the people.
Hopefully it will be realized that they are and have been playing with a stacked deck. A fresh deck is needed .
We , here in the U.S. , have let our deck be tampered with also. I only hope it is not to late to set things straight and give the power of laws/government back to the people, as it should be.
Well thought I have to say.
You forget onething in your analyzis, - I have lived in many countries, and wandered a bit. My focus point is Europe, where Nazism was born, and still has a tendency to swell and give trouble. It is indeed kept at bay by the authorities with various methods, but they are very tricky. I am not sure how it is done here, but I belive it's an issue with their press. Since it normally contains straight lies in the form of propoganda as well as assault and insults on groups of various origins it gives an opening to a lawsuit.
That's the law, (and nobody has relatively more lawsuits than the USA BTW). It works to some extent and that seems to be enough.
They don't rally up here, but they did before WW2. They do indeed rally in Germany nowadays, and it tends to break up into riots. I belive they were not allowed to before, - or perhaps they are just skinhead rallies shouting slogans, - the salutes and uniforms were at least banned for a long time in Germany.
All funny to compare human rights in one country as well as another. And we choose to disagree.
-
If the Neo-Nazi's want to re-enact something ..
..I suggest the Nuremburg Trials.
Or howbout the Fall of Berlin.
-just a thought-
-Frank aka GE
-
Hehe.
BTW at the 60 years "anniversary" of the firebombing of Dresden, some 3000 of them were marching through the city in a protest to this British and American attrocity.
I will be looking at that city in some 10 days.
-
Originally posted by Angus
Freedom of speech means we have to ban....SKUZZY :D
You know, you might be free to say the n-word around a black man, but do it in his home, and expect to be thrown out.
-
But I can shout it out in a multi-cultural public.
Dare I say that the "n"'s should all be re-enslaved since they are underdeveloped and the constitution once allowed that, - shouting high on scaffolds on times square, or do you think the police might arrest me?
-
Originally posted by Angus
But I can shout it out in a multi-cultural public.
Dare I say that the "n"'s should all be re-enslaved since they are underdeveloped and the constitution once allowed that, - shouting high on scaffolds on times square, or do you think the police might arrest me?
Angus, no offense, but your posts are betraying a destinct lack of familiarity with America ;) It really can't be summed up by sound bites from your favorite news program.
You will find people screaming all sorts of things in Times Square. The nutjobs are one of the more interesting parts about a trip to the city :)
Also, your claim that "the Constitution once allowed that" is completely false.
---
You know, my father used to tell me, "If you're right, you can argue and defend yourself, and you'll come out right."
I'm still waiting to hear your arguments as to why the basic points so many of us have said in this thread are wrong.
Because so far, every one of your arguments has come down to, "This type of speech should be banned because I personally don't like it." Let me fill you in - We get that. Now please come up with something more substantial, because your personal preferences, though noble enough, aren't going to cut it.
Pretend I'm the Supreme Court judge. Convince me certain people should not be entitled to their Constitutional rights.
-
So, times square was a wrong choice?
Like Speaker's corner in London?
As for the constitution, has it been altered? If so, then my ignorance. But out of memory there was slavery after the constitution.
-
I believe (correct me if I got you wrong) that you inferred that the Constitution "allowed" slavery.
It never did. Later on, amendments were added that specifically prohibited slavery, but never was there an amendment condoning it.
-
Is the constitution older than the end of slavery? Constitution = 1787.
Amendments ending slavery some 90 years later along with something (Wiki) that "which extended federal legal protections to citizens regardless of race".
So, it was not forbidden. Had to be forbidden by an amendment.
Opening up a slot for the freedom of a group of people while cutting in on the freedom of another group that no longer could have slaves.
-
Originally posted by Angus
Is the constitution older than the end of slavery? Constitution = 1787.
Amendments ending slavery some 90 years later along with something (Wiki) that "which extended federal legal protections to citizens regardless of race".
So, it was not forbidden. Had to be forbidden by an amendment.
Opening up a slot for the freedom of a group of people while cutting in on the freedom of another group that no longer could have slaves.
This doesn't reflect well on my country's history, but black's weren't seen as people before those amendments were made.
The Constitution deals with people, and it strives to make sure all have the same rights.
Anyway, Angus, this is really another topic for another thread. Would you care to finally answer everyone who's been asking you for a good argument for why certain people should have less rights than others? One that doesn't boil down to, "They shouldn't be able to say something that Angus doesn't like?"
-
Wrong turn at Tulsa. :rofl
-
Originally posted by Vudak
This doesn't reflect well on my country's history, but black's weren't seen as people before those amendments were made.
The Constitution deals with people, and it strives to make sure all have the same rights.
Anyway, Angus, this is really another topic for another thread. Would you care to finally answer everyone who's been asking you for a good argument for why certain people should have less rights than others? One that doesn't boil down to, "They shouldn't be able to say something that Angus doesn't like?"
Well, in short I see nazis as people who regard it as their right to bully special target groups. So it's either to cut the bully's rights (which basically through possible lawsuits IS so) or stay aside and therefore cut the other group's rights. I need some terms in english to describe this, I'll try to find them (bully isn's quite the word but close).
That is my answer.
-
"This doesn't reflect well on my country's history, but black's weren't seen as people before those amendments were made."
That sorts it then. Just stop looking at nazis as humans :D
-
I never knew peopls re-enacted WW2 things i speak quite a bit of German.
-
See Rule #13