Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tiger on August 29, 2007, 09:08:59 AM
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294979,00.html
My favorite part is the very last paragraph:
Meanwhile, an international people's tribunal has been convened to take testimony from victims. The tribunal is being spearheaded by legal activists trying to build a case under international law accusing the United States of human rights abuses during and after Katrina.
How about we accuse the people of New Orleans for lack of common sense!!! You look at the radar ont he weather channel and see a storm that fills up the entire Gulf. You see it is projected to be cat 5 and hit your town. You know your town is below see level. Gee whizz, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you might want to consider getting the Heck outta there.
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I just wish they'd go home... tired of seeing idiots holding their hands out. I remember the dumpsters at the Astro Dome full of wine bottles.
If they lost their home I am not responsible for it. If they were uninsured they made the bet that they would never have damage to their home. IF they wanted insurance but could not afford it... then they were living beyond their means.
Let nature take it's course.
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Originally posted by Tiger
How about we accuse the people of New Orleans for lack of common sense!!!
How about you and Shuffler get some common sense and stop criminalizing victims of natural disaster?
Local and federal agencies should do their job no matter what demographic group victims belong to.
Have some compassion for your fellow citizens in dire need even if they are not up to your standard.
As far as the insurance goes, Shuffler, at least 60% of homes in our country are underinsured.
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I blame Bush. It's easier to do it.
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New Orleans re-elected it's mayor.
remember the picture of the New Orleans school buses sitting in a flooded parking lot?
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I haven't got anything but it to base myself on, but the American vacation topgear episode showed parts of NO still unfixed that seemed to be the govt/state's responsibility.
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How about you and Shuffler get some common sense and stop criminalizing victims of natural disaster?
I do not understand?
When did stupid become criminal?
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Originally posted by MrBill
I do not understand?
When did stupid become criminal?
Stupid isn't necessarily criminal but neither is it my responsibility to take care of people too stupid or unwilling to take care of themselves. With the exception of my own children of course, and even they left the nest to learn life's lessons sometimes the hard way.
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Some .. no.... Many people didn't have the ability to get out. Are they stupid too?
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My mortgage company requires that I carry enough enough insurance to cover my home in the case of a catastrophe. (they pull my insurance premiums from me in my monthly mortgage payments and hold them in escrow).
If you live in "government housing" then you own nothing to lose. --- Actually I have more to lose than the people who were living there considering it is my tax dollar paying for it.
For those who didn't heed the warning and leave when there was time, that is Darwinism in action. I could understandif it was an Earth Quake or somethign that could not be predicted. But everyone had fair notice that this huge hurricane was gonna smack them.
As far as government responsibility, apparently the people of NO had no problem with the response as they re-elected Mr. 'chocalate city' mayor and the state governor as well.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Some .. no.... Many people didn't have the ability to get out. Are they stupid too?
I saw the pics of dozens of school buses sitting in parking lots. New Orleans no doubt had hundreds such and many other resources to evacuate it's citizens. I don't think it was so much they couldn't leave as they had no where to go and the city and state governments apparently just didn't want to be bothered with the expense and/or the hassle of relocation.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Some .. no.... Many people didn't have the ability to get out. Are they stupid too?
I'm sure GreyHound runs through there and pretty sure there are hundreds of Taxis around. There's always a bicycle or good old trusty pit-and-pat. When it comes to walking or risking my life with a Cat-5 hurricane bearing down on my below sea level town. I'm hitting the road walking.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
How about you and Shuffler get some common sense and stop criminalizing victims of natural disaster?
Local and federal agencies should do their job no matter what demographic group victims belong to.
Have some compassion for your fellow citizens in dire need even if they are not up to your standard.
As far as the insurance goes, Shuffler, at least 60% of homes in our country are underinsured.
Common sense says...
First.. they are STUPID not criminal... even though many did criminalize themselves.
Second... the government being responsible for babysitting..... that is funny.... if someone is too stupid to protect him or herself.... leave them there and let them suffer the consequences. But not on my dime.
Third... I help those who help themselves. I do not help someone too lazy or ignorant to be living as it is money thrown down the tubes and weakens the country.
Not my fault someone SAVES money not insuring properly. They took a gamble and lost.
Possibly you could move some into your home and support them instead of asking me to. Sort of putting your money where your mouth is.
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Originally posted by Tiger
I'm hitting the road walking.
And get caught by hurricane in the open? Oh the Darwin...
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Originally posted by Tiger
My mortgage company requires that I carry enough enough insurance to cover my home in the case of a catastrophe. (they pull my insurance premiums from me in my monthly mortgage payments and hold them in escrow).
And how would you react if your insurance company said "sorry no coverage" and the mortgage company told you "sorry not our problem keep your payments up".
Even a U.S. Senator got caught up in that one although I have not heard much about it of late, would not be surprised if the insurance company quietly paid him.
shamus
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While you folks are churning away at this, there are a couple issues untouched in this thread:
1. The government confiscating firearms, in clear violation of constitutional rights.
2. Police of nearby towns preventing evacuees from leaving New Orleans, in some cases by firing over them as they tried to escape.
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You know what I find amazing. It's been 2 years since Katrina and we STILL hear nothing but whining and complaining from the "victims" who are doing nothing to better their own lives, but expect the rest of the world to do it for them.
I'll be perfectly honest here. I have NO sympathy for those people at all. What sympathy I had quickly ran out when I went down there 3 days after the storm to help out. I stayed down there for over a month with the Coast Guard helping set up emergancy communication sites for FEMA. Everyday while I was there all I heard from those people was them asking when they were going to get their free handouts. I can't count the times we had people coming to the FEMA sites asking how they were going to get their wellfare checks and food stamps.
My cousin has been down there on and off for the last year or so doing construction work. He lives in South Dakota. He's going down there and getting work no problem. Why??? Because the construction companies can't get enough people to work. Why??? Because those people that are down there don't want to work and rebuild their lives, they want a handout. There are plenty of jobs to be had down there but if they go to work they loose their wellfare checks.
Screw those people. They did nothing to try and help themselves before the storm hit. They were real quick to take anything not bolted down after the storm though weren't they??
I've talked to some of the flight crews that were down there rescuing people from their homes and heard time and again how people they had just pulled to safety were complaining because the crews wouldn't let them take stuff from their homes. I had one guy tell me a lady was refusing to get in the helo unless they took her TV first. What the hell kind of thing is that?
All those people want to do is point a finger at someone....anyone, as long as it gets them something for free. And when they do get something for free all they want to do is complain some more because they want something better for free.
Those folks are taking NO personal responsibility for themselves and their well being.
I performed my humanitarian duties during that disaster and never...not once...did I hear a thank you from any of those people. All I heard was a bunch of complaints. Why weren't you here sooner? Why didn't you help us before the storm? Where am I going to live now? How do I get my wellfare check? Never mind that I volunteered to go there to help and left my family for a month to do it.
Screw em.....I don't owe those people a damn thing.:furious
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many of those people had lost the ability to even think about taking care of themselves - compliments of the democrat party.
now this same democrat government, expressing its desire to keep the original demographics (remember Nagin's "Chocolate City comment?) so that the democrats can stay in power, wants to shuffle all the criminals and poor people back to the lowest laying parts of New Orleans...
... in a city that Nature wants underwater... and apparently still won't be able to withstand a CAT 5 hurricane.
Regarding the incidents cited by Chair boy, it is just more examples of the rampant stupidity in New Orleans and LA in general. The democrat government has treated these unfortunate people like children in these shameful incidents, which violated their civil rights. and it looks like they want to continue doing so.
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I'm pretty tired of hearing about NO and their problem with katrina. They didn't get the brunt of the storm, Mississippi did. The smaller Louisiana communities got their act together and started rebuilding as soon as the storm left. No one from the state did a damn thing to evacuate them, they did it on their own.
The only thing I see the feds really need to get involved in is to put pressure on the insurance companies to pay out the value of the policies in force at the time of the hurricane and the repair the levies. Stop the weaseling and nickle and diming of folks who are working in the system. If they had insurance and their house is gone, cut a check for the max and let them get on with it.
The state of LA. needs to get off their dead butts and start insuring that contractors have valid licenses to cut out the scams that are going on. Vigorously prosecute those who are doing the scams and put them away for a long time.
My step son does contracting work on a small scale to build and sell houses as well as set up his own rental property. His Father in law has a medium sized construction company in Southern Louisiana. They are doing a lot of work in Alabama right now because of the state red tape in Louisiana in getting permits to repair or rebuild homes. It ain't the feds causing the slow downs in a lot of cases, it's the state. They avoid NO like the plague due to the graft and stone walling of the city officials. Every plan has to be examined, including the same plan they approved the week before for a different location.
Construction crews from Texas are getting a BUNCH of work in the Lafayette area right now. I got to see the difference in how they got things done compared to a "home grown" construction company (not my son's in laws). Even my son subcontracted a Texas contracting company to build the house he will be moving into next month. They got the foundation, walls, roof, electrical, plumbing, everything except the interior cabinetry and finishing done in less than half the time a "home grown" company took to frame up a house. My son has already made plans to use the same folks again.
Lafayette and a lot of the other smaller towns that got hit are doing far better than NO as far as getting things taken care of. So is Mississippi and Alabama. All you hear about is NO because they have the whining and blame game down pat.
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nawleans not called the big easy fo nutten.
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(http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/22/22/0000032222_20061026040055.jpg)
looks like enough work for sunday night shows forever :)
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Words of advice for Katrina victims:
[size=100]J O B[/size]
It's cool to work for a living and stop living in gov'ment paid housing.
FtotheUtothuCtothuK! It's been two freaking years and there are jobs out there!
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The only advice I have for the "victims" is....
Call your insurance company.
Don't have insurance or enough insurance? not my problem... maybe if no one rescues you this time you will be smarter next time.
The feds need to go in and fix levees (or abandon the town) and to fix the roads and the federal buildings like post office and such.... state.. fix state buildings and infrastructre or... abandon the town.
Other than that... I don't see what any of it has to do with me.
lazs
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Shall they celebrate by looting?
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yeah... they deserve to loot... heck...even the NO police were in on the looting..
So long as they don't come and confiscate my guns... a riot can be a sporting event.
We never get any good riots around here.
lazs
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Originally posted by Maverick
Lafayette and a lot of the other smaller towns that got hit are doing far better than NO as far as getting things taken care of. So is Mississippi and Alabama. All you hear about is NO because they have the whining and blame game down pat.
I was in Lafayette last weekend. I didn't see anything that looked hurricane damaged... at all... and I grew up in Florida, and delivered supplies to relatives in S.C. right after Hugo, so I've seen the aftermath multiple times. Granted, I didn't go all over the city, but the parts I did see looked perfectly normal. It didn't even occur to myself or the girlfriend that the place had even been hit my Katrina.
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Good 'ol Vermilionville aka Lafayette
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Originally posted by indy007
I was in Lafayette last weekend. I didn't see anything that looked hurricane damaged... at all... and I grew up in Florida, and delivered supplies to relatives in S.C. right after Hugo, so I've seen the aftermath multiple times. Granted, I didn't go all over the city, but the parts I did see looked perfectly normal. It didn't even occur to myself or the girlfriend that the place had even been hit my Katrina.
You kinda just made my point. The majority of their damage there was to the outlying and poorer areas. It didn't take them long to fix it.
There are still some blue tarps in the area but not many. There are more in the Lake Charles area and towards Texas that you can see from I-10.
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Originally posted by Maverick
You kinda just made my point. The majority of their damage there was to the outlying and poorer areas. It didn't take them long to fix it.
There are still some blue tarps in the area but not many. There are more in the Lake Charles area and towards Texas that you can see from I-10.
That was another wierd thing. We spent the night @ Isle of Capri right there off of I-10. Didn't have time to explore, but what we did see.. not a blue tarp in sight.
If I were to speculate... I'd say people simply don't want to go back to NO. It was a craphole to begin with (no offense if to people that live there... but I can't shake the urine smell in & around 6th street from my mind).
but... no big migration going back, no reason to fix alot of stuff cuz there's nobody to even live in it. That said, I wish some of them would get bussed back. I could really do without the Bloods that took over a nearbye apartment complex. :mad:
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I've always heard that New Orleans was a dangerous city, full of poor people and criminals. Katrina displaced all these poor people and criminals.
The U.S. is a performance based society. Nobody likes a parasite. If the residents of New Orleans still don't want to work to rebuild their city, thats fine. We aren't socialist yet, and its no loss to the rest of us if they live in government projects or fema trailers. A real American picks up and starts over. He finds a job, a place to live, and with hard work and motivation, he succeeds.
To lose you is no great loss, to have you is no great gain.
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Some a you peoples just aint be makin no sense is all. know what Im sayin? where dat compassion be? das what I be axin.
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Until you rid the country of the entitlement mentality - that sense that someone owes you something, we will never be all that we can be as a nation.
Think about the people looking for reparations for slavery.... My God. Ok, if there are any living former slaves, I say we pay them handsomely. For the decendents? Forget it. You have the same options as any IMMIGRANT today.....why do some immigrants get here and own their own motels, or 7-11's, after arriving with nothing in their pockets? Because they don't have an entitlement mentality. They are here to work and achieve.
Those who would tell someone they should be paid for slavery are killing the people they claim to represent. The handouts after a storm are needed. At some point, they have to stand on their own feet, and most have. The few with the entitlement mentality will be on the public dole the rest of their lives.
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Well let me start my reply by saying
and thanks to the people here that
do not stereo type people from New Orleans and South Louisiana
after the Natural Disaster that accured, because of the bad apples
and inbreds you only see in the "Media".
And yes I will probablly misspell a few words in this.
And to the idiots that do stereo type, I have one phrase for you but since it has no
place in these forums I'll leave you to your own conclusions.
I lived in Washington Parish 70 miles due North of New Orleans and have and
had relitives in the City none of which lived in section 8 or government housing,
All having and had been paying insurance premiums for 30+ years,
"Sorry but your claim is not covered it was a flood, an act of God"
When in fact it was not the act of God "the hurricane it's self" that
caused the devistation it was the neglected and improplely built
levee's that failed "Man made dissaster" look up the facts instead
of believing every thing you hear, see, and read in the "Media"
Death, Distruction, and dissaster boosts ratings and sells news papers.
And when you speak of New Orleans and south Louisiana direct your anger
and slander to the ones deserving of it, and not the the area as a whole.
1/3 of the countries natural gas supply comes from or thru there,
Agricultural goods come from the northern states down the Mississippi
River to New Orleans to be shipped out, not to mention the millions of
tons of other goods. There are honest and decent people working
in that area that lost every thing.
As for me here's my story.
Remember I was 70 miles Due North of New Orleans, and only 18 miles
due west of my house winds where recorded at 125 mph.
As a result of Katrina a year and a half later I lost my home to forclosure
had a vehicle siezed and had to close my business.
Was I working? You bet your arse I was working but if the economy
is broken you just can't make ends meet. Materials get jacked up
in price, gas prices go thru the roof and you feel you can't trust anyone,
you didn't know.
So you try your best to fix things your self with what you have.
Did I ask anyone for anything No, did I beg anyone for anything No,
Did I stay in some one elses house and spounge off them No.
I stayed in my own partially un roofed house and survived with
no running water and no electricity for a month straight with my wife.
Neighbors helped neighbors and we survived.
Did I vote for Mr. "Chocolate City" Nagen, or Mrs. "Deer in the Headlights Blanco"? NO
I have moved on and restarted my life from scratch with my wife and my son,
Did I ask you to help me do that? NO
So don't put me and Many, Many others like me in the same sentence
when you condem people from the area.
Mid
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There are two types of people in the US, those that live in spite of government and those that live by government.
The people complaining that the government hasn't rebuilt their lives are the same ones who were flopping over on the overpass instead of trying to save themselves. After 3 generations on welfare, they are conditioned to be totally dependent on government.
I've got to figure how to post pictures. I'll show you what I've been doing the last 2 years. I've rebuilt my garage, gutted and rebuilt 70% of my house. The insurance ran out because the cost of materials soared after Katrina. But my house is comfortable. I'm not going to go in debt over it, so I'll complete the last 30% as I get the money.
There is a sense of pride that wherever I look in this house, I can say, I built that:D I'm tired, but damn proud!
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Originally posted by mrmidi
When in fact it was not the act of God "the hurricane it's self" that
caused the devistation it was the neglected and improplely built
levee's that failed "Man made dissaster" look up the facts instead
of believing every thing you hear, see, and read in the "Media"
Death, Distruction, and dissaster boosts ratings and sells news papers.
Mid
Interesting. You're gonna sit here and Blame a Levee System that did it's job? Sure NO was flooded. But when you take into account that while they were only Rated to stop a Cat 3 Storm Surge. Most would rather skirt the fact that while Katrina was a Cat 4 Hurricane, it actually had a Cat 5 Storm Surge. So when you take that FACT into account and realize that the damage could have been worse, I'd have to say that the levees did their job.
As for blaming an "improperly built" Levee system, I call BS. New Orleans Residents chose to live BELOW Sea Level, and the City itself LONG exceeded capacity.
"Man Made Disaster"? LMFAO, you must be Farrakhan. You chose to live there. You had an idiot for Mayor, that was RE-ELECTED, and chose to park school buses. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe it was a "Man Made Disaster", when in fact it was the mindset "It won't happen to us."
As Maverick said, Mississippi got hit worse than NO, but NO and it's minions, are cockblocking them by crying the loudest.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Interesting. You're gonna sit here and Blame a Levee System that did it's job? Sure NO was flooded. But when you take into account that while they were only Rated to stop a Cat 3 Storm Surge. Most would rather skirt the fact that while Katrina was a Cat 4 Hurricane, it actually had a Cat 5 Storm Surge. So when you take that FACT into account and realize that the damage could have been worse, I'd have to say that the levees did their job.
As for blaming an "improperly built" Levee system, I call BS. New Orleans Residents chose to live BELOW Sea Level, and the City itself LONG exceeded capacity.
"Man Made Disaster"? LMFAO, you must be Farrakhan. You chose to live there. You had an idiot for Mayor, that was RE-ELECTED, and chose to park school buses. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe it was a "Man Made Disaster", when in fact it was the mindset "It won't happen to us."
As Maverick said, Mississippi got hit worse than NO, but NO and it's minions, are cockblocking them by crying the loudest.
Jay, I have to disagre with you on this one. Katrina, no matter how you look at it, devasted good hard working people and loser do-nothings alike. It was/is definitely the Governments job to oversee their structures to try and prevent these types of situations. What happened in NO is an injustice to humanity. Many paid their taxes and insurance and owned those homes only to have Katrina, the government, and the insurance companies screw them in their worst time of need.
Yes, there are the bad apples, but usually, and I speak from experience, most of the people who live in these types of neihborhoods would rather be selfsufficient than not.
TalonX, how do you feel about big companies getting subsidies?? Do you think that subsidies are any different from welfare? Which is higher, the money the govt. spends on welfare, or the money the govt. spends on big company subsidies?
I'd be willing to bet, one could take the govt subsidies given to Allstate and Travelers in one year, and rebuiled every house in the ninth ward.
Just a tidbit of info here, 2005(the year Katrina hit) was the most profitable year on record for insurance companies.
Mark
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My blame isn't on the citizens, it is on the one's who choose to "remain blind".
IMO, rebuilding NO to have this happen again is lunacy at it's best. It WILL happen again, and throwing money at it is pointless.
Rebuild the Port, build housing for the Port Authority and have Mardi Gras elsewhere.
Mark, homeowners insurance does NOT cover Floods. It is a separate premium. I was just replying to what I had quoted and still stand behind it. Had those Levees NOT done the stressed job that they had, the entire city would be in the same predicament, regardless of being "slightly higher above the ground".
The Mayor, Governor, and FEMA were inept. The Insurance Company has NEVER been "about the helping of the public", they have ALWAYS been about "screwing the public".
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I think it is useful to see the real results of katrina...
We need to review the tapes of the looting and killing and rapes... the tapes of the NO "police" looting a walmart.. maybe a few speeches by the NO mayor would be helpful.
As for the insurance... I think that if the insurance companies are not paying out then it is insurance companies that need to be invesitgated. If you bought cheapo flood insurance that did not cover hurricanes then you need to suck it up.
I am sure that many people had good insurance and that they got compensated for at least the value of the damage.
The rest of you need to see what kind of insurance they had and get that next time.
The dregs that left NO were criminals everywhere they went. that is why no one wanted them.
My cousin lived there and his house was flooded and he had no trouble finding a place to stay and no trouble with his insurance company and... he never found a need to loot walmart for sneakers and track suits.
lazs
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Jay, I have to disagre with you on this one.... It was/is definitely the Governments job to oversee their structures to try and prevent these types of situations.
Mark
Bull.
Someone wants to build a house on a volcano.
Scenario A:
Government says, "No. It's not safe". The person screams, "The government is telling me how to live!! Ah, Big Brother is controlling my life!! I pay taxes, I'm a free person. Bush and Cheney are evil!!!!!1111"
Scenario B:
The government build a lava deflection system of canals and gives the green light to build the house. After years of government sustenance (i.e. welfare) and paying no taxes, the volcano erupts on an unprecedented level (unprecedented not because it couldn't happen, it just hadn't happened before). The family in the house (they've been busy procreating even though they can't feed just themselves and live on the government tit) claim the government should have done more to prevent the catastrophe and they are victims. Not just victims of circumstance or bad luck but victims of an unjust government that only looks out for rich, white people.
Either way, the government is wrong and the people are victims.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Mark, homeowners insurance does NOT cover Floods. It is a separate premium.
I know the levee debacle in NO is a different case, but in most cases, from loisiana to alabama, the insurances did not pay for water damage that was blown into the houses, not flooded!!!!! In a year where they recorded record profits, they denied almost every claim that had to do with water.
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yet... the insurance companies have paid out millions in flood and water damage claims in NO.
Seems to me that whoever regulates insurance in that state is to blame for a lot of the problems. certainly it is not me.
I did not choose to live under the ocean level in a hurricane area.
I did not choose to get no insurance to cover me.
I did not riot or loot in NO.
I did not vote in the democrats who run that city and state and who, it seems, are insane.
I did see the tapes and stories of how the animals who live in that city reacted.
I did see the tapes of the NO police looting and I did see the officials take firearms away from law abiding citizens so that they could not protect themselves.
I want nothing to do with the people of NO.
lazs
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Originally posted by Yknurd
Bull.
Someone wants to build a house on a volcano.
Scenario A:
Government says, "No. It's not safe". The person screams, "The government is telling me how to live!! Ah, Big Brother is controlling my life!! I pay taxes, I'm a free person. Bush and Cheney are evil!!!!!1111"
Scenario B:
The government build a lava deflection system of canals and gives the green light to build the house. After years of government sustenance (i.e. welfare) and paying no taxes, the volcano erupts on an unprecedented level (unprecedented not because it couldn't happen, it just hadn't happened before). The family in the house (they've been busy procreating even though they can't feed just themselves and live on the government tit) claim the government should have done more to prevent the catastrophe and they are victims. Not just victims of circumstance or bad luck but victims of an unjust government that only looks out for rich, white people.
Either way, the government is wrong and the people are victims.
govt-state, local, and federal
You miss the reason we pay taxes. Those levees were under the care of the government, and therefore the government is responsible. Now, if the government wants to avoid seeking taxes from places where it does not want to do it's job, then maybe we will have an answer to the levee lunacy in NO!
The government oversees and has authority to deny the building of any house for many different reasons. Those neihborhoods were built under the watchful eye of the government and were taxed as well. There has never been any doubt about the possibilities for dissaster considering the levees, yet time and time again, monies were not allocated to raise and support the levees......I guess that money was being spent on other things..........maybe 100 times the amount of money that would have been needed to secure the levees was spent on big insurance subsidies.................... .....enough said!!! :aok
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LOL.. the federal government allowed people to build there? It was federal land?
Sooo... no matter how dangerous a place... if the government builds any protection...such as levees... it is the fault of the government if a hurricane... no matter what strength... knocks it down?
Those levees had survived countless lesser hurricanes. I say that if you live there and don't have insurance then it is entirely your fault.
If I have a vote then I would vote that the levees that the feds own all be bulldozed and that it be posted everywhere that there is federal land (former levee sites) that anything past this point is a dangerous flood plain.
If people or state government wants to build a levee... let em...if people want to live there with crap insurance and crap government watchdogs on insurance... let em.
I waived flood insurance on my home. It was my choice and It may bite me on the butt some day but I am willing to take that chance. after all.. I can always loot and whine if things go badly.
lazs
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Again, Mark, I say Bull.
It's not the job of the government to protect the stupid people from themselves.
In fact, I want a government, nay, a nation, where the stupid people are allowed to freely hurt and kill themselves without ANY governmental interference.
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levees
The levees for YEARS (40+ yrs.) have been known to giveaway if there was any threat of a Hurricane of substantial power like Katrina. It was also known that the city would be under water if a hurricane was to hit & yet the Mayor did nothing. And to top that the people of LA. Re-elect him. [shrug]
I’m not saying the government shouldn’t have fixed the levees along time ago as they should have, before Bush (people have blamed Bush for the levee break).
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Originally posted by lazs2
LOL.. the federal government allowed people to build there? It was federal land?
Sooo... no matter how dangerous a place... if the government builds any protection...such as levees... it is the fault of the government if a hurricane... no matter what strength... knocks it down?
I say that if you live there and don't have insurance then it is entirely your fault.
*Why were the levees built?
*I mentioned it being partial fault of the government and not only the federal branch. Can't build anything within the city limits without a permit, and where might I ask does one get a permit?????? They code there was like 15 inches off the ground.
*The federal government should have secured the levees years ago. They did not, and continued giving subsidies to insurance companies who were by that time, refusing to renew policies there. Hmmm, kinda makes you wonder.....
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Originally posted by RATTFINK
levees
The levees for YEARS (40+ yrs.) have been known to giveaway if there was any threat of a Hurricane of substantial power like Katrina. It was also known that the city would be under water if a hurricane was to hit & yet the Mayor did nothing & to top that the people of LA. Re-elect him. [shrug]
I’m not saying the government shouldn’t have fixed the levees along time ago as they should have, before Bush (people have blamed Bush for the levee break).
It's not a matter of who was in office, records show the levees were shown to be a threat for a long time and the studies proved that this would happen. There was a need and requests were made for years.
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Originally posted by Yknurd
It's not the job of the government to protect the stupid people from themselves.
That's exactly government job. Smart people can take care of themselves.
Originally posted by Yknurd
In fact, I want a government, nay, a nation, where the stupid people are allowed to freely hurt and kill themselves without ANY governmental interference.
You don't wanna let stupid do what they want. What if you decide to kill yourself with few tons of fertilizer (ala Timothy McVeigh) and kill lots of smarts in the process?
In fact, only stupid people want society let stupid do what they want. I'm sure you're smarter than that, but then again, maybe you're not...
Back to Katrina.
Fact: majority of the people in area struck by Katrina are hard working Americans.
Fact: levees failed below design specifications.
Fact: local and federal government disaster response was lacking
Fact: NO has always been a city of major importance and it remains so to this day, therefore people will work and live there as they did in the past.
Fact: Local and federal bureaucracy is a major hurdle in rebuilding effort.
Fact: Small portion of affected are abusing the system.
Another fact: generalizing, badmouthing the people struck by disaster, talking out of arse with no facts, holier than thou attitude and lots of other BS, is favorite of O'Club ethic infants, mental midgets and bigots.
They all come out of woodwork at the time when they should better STFU for once.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
It's not a matter of who was in office, records show the levees were shown to be a threat for a long time and the studies proved that this would happen. There was a need and requests were made for years.
My point exactly.
I was just stating that some people blame the levee breaks on the present commander and chief.
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If your willing to become Cereal and live in a bowl , dont be suprised when mother nature pours on the milk.
To borrow Mayor Naggins way of thinking.....
"We will be Cocoa Puffs again"
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Originally posted by RedTop
If your willing to become Cereal and live in a bowl , dont be suprised when mother nature pours on the milk.
To borrow Mayor Naggins way of thinking.....
"We will be Cocoa Puffs again"
LMFAO :rofl
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
That's exactly government job. Smart people can take care of themselves.
No, it's not. Cigarettes should be illegal along with alcohol in your Utopian Nanny State. And only smart people would not drink and smoke extending your logic to it's inevitable conclusion.
Again, the government should not be protecting people from themselves. I think that the government should even assist suicides. Assist to make sure it's done right, indefinite medical care is expensive.
Originally posted by 2bighorn
You don't wanna let stupid do what they want. What if you decide to kill yourself with few tons of fertilizer (ala Timothy McVeigh) and kill lots of smarts in the process?
I didn't say it shouldn't protect people from other people. If Timothy McVeigh had wanted two tons of fertilizer to go kill himself in the middle of the desert then I would have given him directions and two thumbs up!
Originally posted by 2bighorn
In fact, only stupid people want society let stupid do what they want. I'm sure you're smarter than that, but then again, maybe you're not...
Perhaps you are one of the types that I'm advocating for governmental emancipation.
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Originally posted by Yknurd
No, it's not. Cigarettes should be illegal along with alcohol in your Utopian Nanny State. And only smart people would not drink and smoke extending your logic to it's inevitable conclusion.
Again, the government should not be protecting people from themselves. I think that the government should even assist suicides. Assist to make sure it's done right, indefinite medical care is expensive.
I didn't say it shouldn't protect people from other people. If Timothy McVeigh had wanted two tons of fertilizer to go kill himself in the middle of the desert then I would have given him directions and two thumbs up!
Perhaps you are one of the types that I'm advocating for governmental emancipation.
2bighorn has been pwnd :rofl
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Fact: levees failed ABOVE design specifications.
Fixed.
Again, they were rated to Cat 3. Cat 5 storm surge hit, be thankful they ALL didn't break.
Also, it is a waste to rebuild the City to "what it once was". Then again, maybe there were "explosions" before the Storm Surge hit? :noid
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Originally posted by Yknurd
No, it's not. Cigarettes should be illegal along with alcohol in your Utopian Nanny State. And only smart people would not drink and smoke extending your logic to it's inevitable conclusion.
Again, the government should not be protecting people from themselves. I think that the government should even assist suicides. Assist to make sure it's done right, indefinite medical care is expensive.
I didn't say it shouldn't protect people from other people. If Timothy McVeigh had wanted two tons of fertilizer to go kill himself in the middle of the desert then I would have given him directions and two thumbs up!
Perhaps you are one of the types that I'm advocating for governmental emancipation.
Excellent post. Quite possibly the best yet in the O' Club, in 2007.
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Originally posted by Yknurd
No, it's not. Cigarettes should be illegal along with alcohol in your Utopian Nanny State. And only smart people would not drink and smoke extending your logic to it's inevitable conclusion.
We are a bit off topic here, but lets try again.
You're generalizing again. We are talking about stupid. Smart people understand the consequences of bad habits like smoking and drinking. Even if they smoke or drink, they'll be ready to deal with when bad happens, either with extra medical coverage, savings, or abstinence in case they can't afford it.
Originally posted by Yknurd
Again, the government should not be protecting people from themselves. I think that the government should even assist suicides. Assist to make sure it's done right, indefinite medical care is expensive.
Obviously you don't understand the role of the government in modern societies. It's not about what we want, but what it is and what is possible with number of people living together.
No matter how hard you wish for, for the biggest part 'individualism' is the enemy of every structured society. As the numbers rise, the more individual actions affect the rest, therefore we get more rules which limits our individual freedoms. Nothing but disaster of epic proportions can reverse that process.
Originally posted by Yknurd
I didn't say it shouldn't protect people from other people. If Timothy McVeigh had wanted two tons of fertilizer to go kill himself in the middle of the desert then I would have given him directions and two thumbs up!
Remember, we are talking about stupid. Going into desert to blow yourself up would be smart move.
Originally posted by Yknurd
Perhaps you are one of the types that I'm advocating for governmental emancipation.
Since trying to be smart on internet forum is one of the last 'freedoms' left to you, I'll let it be...
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Again, they were rated to Cat 3. Cat 5 storm surge hit, be thankful they ALL didn't break.
That was initial excuse by US Army Corps. Following investigations by NSF (hired by US Army Corps) have proved that levee design was at fault, and thus failure was inevitable. Unsatisfactory maintenance contributed to breach as well.
Senate Subcommittee on Energy and Water came to the same conclusions.
Furthermore, way back in 1986 study by US Army Corps pointed to possible future failure due to design faults.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
That was initial excuse by US Army Corps. Following investigations by NSF (hired by US Army Corps) have proved that levee design was at fault, and thus failure was inevitable. Unsatisfactory maintenance contributed to breach as well.
Senate Subcommittee on Energy and Water came to the same conclusions.
Furthermore, way back in 1986 study by US Army Corps pointed to possible future failure due to design faults.
This was what I have read and understood to be true.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
That was initial excuse by US Army Corps. Following investigations by NSF (hired by US Army Corps) have proved that levee design was at fault, and thus failure was inevitable. Unsatisfactory maintenance contributed to breach as well.
Senate Subcommittee on Energy and Water came to the same conclusions.
Furthermore, way back in 1986 study by US Army Corps pointed to possible future failure due to design faults.
Understand this, NO CITY is safe from a Levee System that can stop the Cat 5 Storm Surge.
The US Army Corps said that "they were designed with a maximum rating of Cat 3 on the Saffir-Simpson Scale. There were some weak points, but none catastrophic."
Again, the damage, COULD OF been A LOT worse than it was. But yeah, those levee's sucked. Be thankful. Wait, it's not good enough.
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Ok let me see if I have this all correct.
We chose to live below sea level.
We have faulty levies and have known about it for 20 years.
We have elected officials that will not address the problem for twenty years.
We have many days notice that "the big one" is coming.
We have no feet so we can't leave.
We are either underinsured, of trust that little gecko thingie to protect us because he has a cool tv ad.
We believe that if all else fails the Government will bail us out.
If the above is correct I see seven reasons for stupid.
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this is getting better and better....
The hurricane was just a coincidence.. the fact that the levees were only built to withstand a cat 2 or three and... they did in the past... that is nothing... the fact that katrina was a cat 5 had nothing to do with the failure?
the fact that the people had the mayor and insurance commisioner they had had nothing to do with the disaster?
The fact that the people who lived there refused to get adequate insurance had nothing to do with it?
Now I am told that the vast majority of the people of NO are great, law abiding and responsible citizens....
Yet... I see vids of the police looting a walmart.... if the police are like that then I can only imagine that all the other vids of the feral creatures I seen must be true and representitive.
I would say that the only hand wringing about the whole katrina thing is from the media and that the average Americian pretty much feels as I do that it was a disaster that is not our problem and we are really sick of hearing about it.
I would love the feds to simply say "thats it... we are taking out the levees.'
lazs
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Blaming the Govt. for the "inferior levees" in NO, is like San Francisco residents of today, BLAMING the reconstruction after the 1906. Building codes were instituted to make downtown San. Fran. "fire proof and earthquake resistant", by using "non-combustible materials". Three months after it was instituted, they were abolished. Guess what? When the next one comes, those very buildings will be demolished wholesale by the quake.
It's EASY to blame the past. It is all too convenient to disperse common sense and reality to something else. You chose to live BELOW SEA LEVEL, be prepared to deal with the consequences.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The US Army Corps said that "they were designed with a maximum rating of Cat 3 on the Saffir-Simpson Scale. There were some weak points, but none catastrophic."
20 breach points were investigated, 12 main and 8 sub location. Only at Plaquemanes Parish, storm surge and height of waves exceeded design levels.
8 points of breach were of 'catastrophic' severity.
Only 16 percent of pumps were operating after the breach. All others were out for various reasons.
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Again, the damage, COULD OF been A LOT worse than it was. But yeah, those levee's sucked. Be thankful. Wait, it's not good enough.
It could also be a lot less, since only at one point there would be leakage due to a storm surge.
Originally posted by lazs2
The hurricane was just a coincidence.. the fact that the levees were only built to withstand a cat 2 or three and... they did in the past... that is nothing... the fact that katrina was a cat 5 had nothing to do with the failure?
The fact that levee system was designed to withstand cat 3, which Katrina was at land fall.
Originally posted by lazs2
the fact that the people had the mayor and insurance commisioner they had had nothing to do with the disaster?
They are partially responsible
Originally posted by lazs2
The fact that the people who lived there refused to get adequate insurance had nothing to do with it?
Not everybody got full coverage, not everybody could afford, rebuilding costs are higher than what they got from insurance. Lots of people were renting, living in apartments, majority of those weren't rebuild yet.
Originally posted by lazs2
Now I am told that the vast majority of the people of NO are great, law abiding and responsible citizens....
LOL, of course, pretty much same as in Dixon. Both places have some bad apples, don't they?
Originally posted by lazs2
Yet... I see vids of the police looting a walmart.... if the police are like that then I can only imagine that all the other vids of the feral creatures I seen must be true and representitive.
That's only one side of the story and definitely not representative of the majority.
Most of the times you complain about media accuracy, out of context reporting, etc, yet when it comes to Katrina, you suddenly stand 100% behind that very same media?
Originally posted by lazs2
I would say that the only hand wringing about the whole katrina thing is from the media and that the average Americian pretty much feels as I do that it was a disaster that is not our problem and we are really sick of hearing about it.
Then turn away and stop posting ill comments about it. You are free to skip threads like this one.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
The fact that levee system was designed to withstand cat 3, which Katrina was at land fall.
Then turn away and stop posting ill comments about it. You are free to skip threads like this one.
Why lie to "cook your argument"? It was a Category 3-4 (depending on the source) Hurricane, with a Category 5 strength Storm Surge.
You seem to be NOT GETTING the point. The system WAS out of date, the pumps are USELESS. Those pumps are 20 years older than the 1933 levees. Why do you keep bringing up "out of date things." EVERY resident of NO knew the system was "out of date". Hell, the drainage system was designed in 1896. The city even exceeded it's capacity long into the 1800's.
NO was hit by a Cat 5 Storm Surge. You CANNOT, WILL NOT, have a system that can move that amount of water. Are you understanding this? Just because the Hurricane was a Cat 3-4 DOES NOTHING, to the FACT that it was a Cat 5 Storm surge. Do you understand this? I think you do not understand this FACT.
Again, Mississippi was hit a helluva lot worse and has been ignored by the media. Stop blaming the Govt. for "residential complacency". As for the Govt. being blamed, BS, that Mayor and Gov. should have been shot, drawn and quartered. But instead, they blamed Boosh.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
20 breach points were investigated, 12 main and 8 sub location. Only at Plaquemanes Parish, storm surge and height of waves exceeded design levels.
8 points of breach were of 'catastrophic' severity.
Only 16 percent of pumps were operating after the breach. All others were out for various reasons.
It could also be a lot less, since only at one point there would be leakage due to a storm surge.
The fact that levee system was designed to withstand cat 3, which Katrina was at land fall.
They are partially responsible
Not everybody got full coverage, not everybody could afford, rebuilding costs are higher than what they got from insurance. Lots of people were renting, living in apartments, majority of those weren't rebuild yet.
LOL, of course, pretty much same as in Dixon. Both places have some bad apples, don't they?
That's only one side of the story and definitely not representative of the majority.
Most of the times you complain about media accuracy, out of context reporting, etc, yet when it comes to Katrina, you suddenly stand 100% behind that very same media?
Then turn away and stop posting ill comments about it. You are free to skip threads like this one.
pretty much sums it up. About the insurance, when children started buying homes from their parents, many insurance companies would not renew policies, so many lost houses that have been in the family for years and years. Very sad. We all know about the bad apples, but I work in this type of neighborhood daily, and know that the percentage of bad apples is always dwarfed by the percentage of great americans!
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Why lie to "cook your argument"?
Relax there grasshopper. Why don't you inform yourself before calling me a liar?
Funded by National Science Foundation, an eight-month study of the New Orleans levee system and its performance during Hurricane Katrina, a 30-person team of researchers released a draft of their findings
...This report presents the results of an investigation of the performance of the New Orleans regional flood protection system during and after Hurricane Katrina, which struck the New Orleans region on August 29, 2005. This event resulted in the single most costly catastrophic failure of an engineered system in history.
Current damage estimates at the time of this writing are on the order of $100 to $200 billion in the greater New Orleans area, and the official death count in New Orleans and southern Louisiana at the time of this writing stands at 1,293, with an additional 306 deaths in nearby southern Mississippi. An additional approximately 300 people are currently still listed as “missing”, and the death toll is expected to continue to rise a bit further. More than 450,000 people were initially displaced by this catastrophe, and at the time of this writing more than 200,000 residents of the greater New Orleans metropolitan area continue to be displaced from their homes by the floodwater damages from this storm event.
This investigation has targeted three main questions as follow: (1) What happened?, (2) Why?, and (3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future? In the end, it is concluded that many things went wrong with the New Orleans flood protection system during Hurricane Katrina, and that the resulting catastrophe had it roots in three main causes:
(1) a major natural disaster (the Hurricane itself),
(2) the poor performance of the flood protection system, due to localized engineering failures, questionable judgments, errors, etc. involved in the detailed design, construction, operation and maintenance of the system, and
(3) more global “organizational” and institutional problems associated with the governmental and local organizations responsible for the design, construction, operation, maintenance and funding of the overall flood protection system.
Study in full : http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~new_orleans/report/VOL_1.pdf
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
But instead, they blamed Boosh.
Bro, you seem to be laying all the blame on the victims and the local and state and act like feds should have no blame. I believe that the Mayor and Govenor acted basically criminal in their reaction and behavior towards the impending storm as well as did the agencies on the federal level.
It needed to be fixed 30 years ago, but to say that Bush and the federal govt was blameless is just not looking at what actually happened. Maybe you should study the timeline and find out what the agencies were doing while grandmothers and old folks home residents were drowning!
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Originally posted by 2bighorn Study
Studies have an agenda, I don't. I've stated facts.
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Federal govt has spent a half TRILLION dollars in N.O. since the flood, and the levees that broke are now capable of withstanding a....class 3 hurricane...
(but the water can reach 6 inches higher:aok )---and the levees that DIDNT break are just as bad off as before...will take decades to put them all at 5's
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Bro, you seem to be laying all the blame on the victims and the local and state and act like feds should have no blame. I believe that the Mayor and Govenor acted basically criminal in their reaction and behavior towards the impending storm as well as did the agencies on the federal level.
It needed to be fixed 30 years ago, but to say that Bush and the federal govt was blameless is just not looking at what actually happened. Maybe you should study the timeline and find out what the agencies were doing while grandmothers and old folks home residents were drowning!
As I've stated Mark, regardless of the amount of money spent, no levee created may withstand a Category 5 Storm Surge. It is impossible to move that much water. "Rebuilding NO" is feeble.
I've stated facts, and 2bighorn wishes to pick and choose. I'm through. If he he wants to blame other's, he can. I think it's funny that "complacency" is his answer.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Studies have an agenda, I don't.
They better have it, otherwise they'd be pretty useless.
Agenda of this study:
(1) What happened?
(2) Why?
(3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future?
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I've stated facts.
Facts? Where did you pull those from? Any reference perhaps?
Maybe you could cross check your storm surge facts here:
http://www.katrina.noaa.gov/reports/reports.html
The point is, it happened before. After Andrew hit Florida, dozen or so insurance companies went belly up. No money was paid out.
Thousands and thousands fully insured families were homeless with no funds to rebuild.
Government response there was late. There was looting. Some are still in FEMA supplied housing on tax payer expense (15 years later), yet nobody is claiming Florida people are all lazy crooks. What's so different about NO people?
Tell me, from all who are at fault, especially federal, state and local governments, you're slamming on NO people? And for what reason?
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
They better have it, otherwise they'd be pretty useless.
Agenda of this study:
(1) What happened?
(2) Why?
(3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future?
Facts? Where did you pull those from? Any reference perhaps?
Maybe you could cross check your storm surge facts here:
http://www.katrina.noaa.gov/reports/reports.html
The point is, it happened before. After Andrew hit Florida, dozen or so insurance companies went belly up. No money was paid out.
Thousands and thousands fully insured families were homeless with no funds to rebuild.
Government response there was late. There was looting. Some are still in FEMA supplied housing on tax payer expense (15 years later), yet nobody is claiming Florida people are all lazy crooks. What's so different about NO people?
Tell me, from all who are at fault, especially federal, state and local governments, you're slamming on NO people? And for what reason?
word!
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Studies have an agenda, I don't. I've stated facts.
Is not your agenda to state facts?
If so, you do have an agenda.
If you do have an agenda, then the statement, "Studies have an agenda, I don't. I've stated facts." would then be false, as you state that you do not have an agenda, when you do.
The second half of that quote is then at best misleading, when you state that you state facts, when you state falsehoods as well.
But then by stating falsehoods, you are going against your own agenda, thereby contradicting your own dictum.
And we all know that a contradicting dictum could be confusing.
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Agenda of this study:
(1) What happened?....high water
(2) Why?.......hurricane
(3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future? ............move to higher ground.
who do i bill for my "study"?
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Originally posted by john9001
Agenda of this study:
(1) What happened?....high water
(2) Why?.......hurricane
(3) What types of changes are necessary to prevent recurrence of a disaster of this scale again in the future? ............move to higher ground.
who do i bill for my "study"?
Agree. Bighorn would rather spew the same drivel.
I'm through with him. Keep blaming everyone else 2bighorn. It's easier that way.
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Some have had no problem rebuiling,,perhaps they have a better work ethic, then the, "what has the govt. done for me lately lay about groups"
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0609,shaftel,72328,2.html
Vietnamese-owned businesses have reopened.........
New Orleans neighborhoods after Katrina and the federal government's reluctance to commit funds to the reconstruction of the whole of New Orleans, the Vietnamese community has gone ahead with not only returning, but presenting a plan for an enhanced neighborhood. "From day one [the city council] has been fighting for every neighborhood to return. They may have jump-started that process," Willard-Lewis said.
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Originally posted by JBA
Some have had no problem rebuiling,,perhaps they have a better work ethic, then the, "what has the govt. done for me lately lay about groups"
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0609,shaftel,72328,2.html
Vietnamese-owned businesses have reopened.........
New Orleans neighborhoods after Katrina and the federal government's reluctance to commit funds to the reconstruction of the whole of New Orleans, the Vietnamese community has gone ahead with not only returning, but presenting a plan for an enhanced neighborhood. "From day one [the city council] has been fighting for every neighborhood to return. They may have jump-started that process," Willard-Lewis said.
It's a running theme. While many people were running around rampant in the LA riots taking whatever they wanted, the korean shop owners were defending their shops with force.
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Now I am a media hack? I seen the vids and they weren't from channel whatever or cnn... they were the ones that bloggers and private citizens took...
I seen police looting a walmart... I seen feral aholes looting. I seen what the scum did to the stadium they were in.
I am told they are good people with a few bad apples "just like dixon" BS... Dixon cops wouldn't loot our walmart. We would shoot looters here.
Now I am told that it is not the fault of the people who had no insurance. that they were unable to buy it.
If I was unable to buy flood insurance in a flood area.. that would be one HUGE frigging clue.
We have people here in flood plains that don't have insurance... they buy a house with water marks half way up the door in 3 or four levels and then don't buy flood insurance because it is "expensive" and then... first flood.. they are on tv wondering when I am gonna get there and fix it all for em.
Far as I am concerned... the people of NO have already got all the help I am willing to give em.... BILLIONS by the way...
If and when it happens again they should get nothing.
lazs
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The Federal Government demonstrated it’s inability to cope with a large disaster post 9/11 with it’s response to Katrina. This was despite being given carte blanche to prepare for the next attack. Katrina was in effect the next attack. It was a great test, it proved that all levels of Government were ineffective and failed it people.
Today the city of New Orleans is back in business for the most part, perhaps it shouldn’t be, but it is. The out laying districts still look pretty much like they did 2 weeks after the flood waters receded But the City, it’s hotels and restaurants, are up and running .
One suggestion to help the recovery might be to move the three branches of our Federal Government to those out laying areas of New Orleans. I’m pretty sure that within a day that fat bloated Government would get the water running and the flush toilets working and the lights turned back on. If they had to live and work there. But that leads to a larger question………
Should New Orleans ever be allowed to fully recover? That is the question that needs to be answered. Many people point to Holland and say that we should follow their method of levy building. Holland has had some bad weather, however, they have never experienced a category 5 hurricane. In fact they have never experienced a hurricane of any kind and most likely never will.
But following Holland’s example is exactly what we should do with New Orleans. Holland gave up the idea of holding back the water long ago. They let nature take it’s course and large areas were allowed to flood, Cities were moved or relocated and a minimal dike and levy system was put in place. They still build homes in flood planes however, the homes that are built in these areas must float.
Spending billions and trillions of dollars on a levy system in New Orleans that will take decades to be in a position to withstand a category 5 just makes no sense. New Orleans will be hit again by a category 5 hurricane within the next 10 years. That’s a given as hurricane’s become more numerous do to climatic changes that everyone agrees is taking place.
Why encourage people to repopulate an area that is going to be hit again and will suffer just as bad, I doubt that our fat bloated Federal Government will improve in it’s ability to respond in the next 10 years. Americans are to busy being distracted to change it’s leaders. We re-elect the same type of people at each election.
We may see a change in our government leaders if al Qaeda is able to make good on it’s promise to commit another terrorist attack in the United States. Something that kills tens of thousands rather then just thousands of people. I’m sure that then leadership will change.
Or they are all forced to resign following arrest in a public restroom for seeking gay sex. That seems to be the most popular thing they do today.
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so... if a hurricane destroyed the levees in holland it would be the governments fault?
I hear what you are saying traveler. I am just one who says that the people and government of that state have failed themselves and that the city should be there only at individual risk.
If you want to live in such an area... get insurance... If you can't get insurance or it is too expensive... that is one frigging large clue.
I have heard the hand wringers... it is all about "love" of NO... not about if it is a good idea or not but that it is history and such... fine... turn it into a museum. buy out the people who live in the area and don't sell land back.
To me it is just a larger version of what happens here from time to time in the delta flood area. flood insurance is expensive here and some of the people inherited the homes...
Does that mean that I have to pay when they flood?
There should be no fema. it is worthless as has been proven. We can do it ourselves without fema.
lazs
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NO is incredibly important to the economic well being of the US. Oil, commodities, shipping.. you name it flows through this vital area. It is in the best interests of the United States to maintain a viable city and a population in NO.
It has also been pointed out that the levees and flood control in general are the responsibility of the Federal Govt. I once bought a home that was deemed to be in a flood plain. I could not get the loan without flood insurance. I'm pretty sure this was a federal mandate, but I may be wrong about that.
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You don't need the kind of city that was NO to use the port. Those who can't afford insurance don't need to be there.
Levees may be the responsibilty of the feds...
Floods will still happen tho... they happen here and it is always the levees that are to blame... levees are not some simple wall that stretches a mile or so... they are almost impossible to maintain. miles and miles of em and it is often hard to determine if they are in good shape or not or... how much water they can hold back.
Here we go by flood not hurricane... 1 in 25 year storm 1 in 50... whatever.
There they used cat.... cat 2... cat 3..
Point is.. the levees will never be perfect soooo... here when the storm reaches somewhere even close to the levee capacity.. people are told to evacuate.
In NO... the hurricane was OVER what the levees were designed for PEOPLE WERE TOLD TO EVACUATE.
they didn't. they didn't have insurance either. how is this anyones fault except theirs?
What would you have us do? rebuild the levees to.... to what? cat 3 again?
cat 6? have a constant watch run up and down the levees and babysit on our dime? what if a cat 6 hurricane tears it all down again?
lazs
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Originally posted by Traveler
Spending billions and trillions of dollars on a levy system in New Orleans that will take decades to be in a position to withstand a category 5 just makes no sense. New Orleans will be hit again by a category 5 hurricane within the next 10 years. That’s a given as hurricane’s become more numerous do to climatic changes that everyone agrees is taking place.
Yes because the predictions that the 2006 and 2007 seasons would be worse than 2005 have come true.
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Originally posted by Tiger
Yes because the predictions that the 2006 and 2007 seasons would be worse than 2005 have come true.
No serious climatologist ever made that predictions. It's just a myth spread by media and used by both, those who are pro and those against global warming theory to further their political agendas.
Consensus Statements by International Workshop on Tropical Cyclones-VI (IWTC-VI) Participants :
1. Though there is evidence both for and against the existence of a detectable anthropogenic signal in the tropical cyclone climate record to date, no firm conclusion can be made on this point.
2. No individual tropical cyclone can be directly attributed to climate change.
3. The recent increase in societal impact from tropical cyclones has largely been caused by rising concentrations of population and infrastructure in coastal regions.
4. Tropical cyclone wind-speed monitoring has changed dramatically over the last few decades, leading to difficulties in determining accurate trends.
5. There is an observed multi-decadal variability of tropical cyclones in some regions whose causes, whether natural, anthropogenic or a combination, are currently being debated. This variability makes detecting any long-term trends in tropical cyclone activity difficult.
6. It is likely that some increase in tropical cyclone peak wind-speed and rainfall will occur if the climate continues to warm. Model studies and theory project a 3-5% increase in wind-speed per degree Celsius increase of tropical sea surface temperatures.
7. There is an inconsistency between the small changes in wind-speed projected by theory and modeling versus large changes reported by some observational studies.
8. Although recent climate model simulations project a decrease or no change in global tropical cyclone numbers in a warmer climate, there is low confidence in this projection. In addition, it is unknown how tropical cyclone tracks or areas of impact will change in the future.
9. Large regional variations exist in methods used to monitor tropical cyclones. Also, most regions have no measurements by instrumented aircraft. These significant limitations will continue to make detection of trends difficult.
10. If the projected rise in sea level due to global warming occurs, then the vulnerability to tropical cyclone storm surge flooding would increase.
source: NOAA
Originally posted by lazs2
Far as I am concerned... the people of NO have already got all the help I am willing to give em.... BILLIONS by the way...
You know what, I prefer to see billions spent for rebuilding NO rather than Iraq...
Originally posted by lazs2
If you want to live in such an area... get insurance... If you can't get insurance or it is too expensive... that is one frigging large clue.
That's like crying about gun restriction laws and residing in Solano County. That is one frigging large clue.
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I think everyone that lives in a 100 year flood plain, on a barrier island, in an area where tornados occur, or even on an earthquake fault line should get a brand new bigger home in a prime gated community than the one they lose should mother nature ever have the audacity to take out their original home.
After all, it's not their fault that they chose to live there; the rest of us are to blame.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
That's like crying about gun restriction laws and residing in Solano County. That is one frigging large clue.
Well, YEAH! Because privately purchasing insurance is just like having one of your constitutional rights abrogated.
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Originally posted by Traveler
But following Holland’s example .................Holland gave up the idea of holding back the water long ago. They let nature take it’s course and large areas were allowed to flood, Cities were moved or relocated
In other words...."don't rebuild NO"
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Originally posted by midnight Target
NO is incredibly important to the economic well being of the US. Oil, commodities, shipping.. you name it flows through this vital area. It is in the best interests of the United States to maintain a viable city and a population in NO.
It has also been pointed out that the levees and flood control in general are the responsibility of the Federal Govt. I once bought a home that was deemed to be in a flood plain. I could not get the loan without flood insurance. I'm pretty sure this was a federal mandate, but I may be wrong about that.
I strongly disagree. The proper thing would be to ONLY build up the Port Authority of New Orleans. Build subsequent housing for the Port Authority and put a fork in this never ending money pit. Nothing good will come of this happening again. If they pull out of Iraq, that's even more money going to education for my 5 year old, and everyone else.
These two pictures should set the tone, two different yards:
(http://home.mchsi.com/~idkfa/bus1.jpg)
(http://home.mchsi.com/~idkfa/bus2.jpg)
IMO, put a fork in NO.
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Originally posted by Traveler
But following Holland’s example is exactly what we should do with New Orleans. Holland gave up the idea of holding back the water long ago. They let nature take it’s course and large areas were allowed to flood, Cities were moved or relocated and a minimal dike and levy system was put in place. They still build homes in flood planes however, the homes that are built in these areas must float.
Spending billions and trillions of dollars on a levy system in New Orleans that will take decades to be in a position to withstand a category 5 just makes no sense. New Orleans will be hit again by a category 5 hurricane within the next 10 years. That’s a given as hurricane’s become more numerous do to climatic changes that everyone agrees is taking place.
Why encourage people to repopulate an area that is going to be hit again and will suffer just as bad, I doubt that our fat bloated Federal Government will improve in it’s ability to respond in the next 10 years. Americans are to busy being distracted to change it’s leaders. We re-elect the same type of people at each election.
We may see a change in our government leaders if al Qaeda is able to make good on it’s promise to commit another terrorist attack in the United States. Something that kills tens of thousands rather then just thousands of people. I’m sure that then leadership will change.
Excellent post.
In addition to the Holland example, let's look at San Francisco. Again, in 1906 after the Earthquake demolished the city, it needed to be rebuilt. For the first 3-4 months they had follow "code" to make the structures "tolerant of earthquakes". Only "non-combustible" materials were to be used for framework. After the 3-4 months, the City and politicians "were upset with how long it was taking to rebuild".
So, the contractors were therefore going back to building "all wood structures".
Take the infamous Valencia Street Hotel collapse in the Quake of 1906. In the 1800's a lake was filled in, and this hotel was built on top of a part of that lake. When the quake hit the ground underneath the hotel experienced "liquefaction". The lake being earlier filled in with rubble, sand and rocks mixed with the water and the building collapsed. The first 3 floors had 200 trapped underground. The problem is that when the Quake occurred, the underground water system had a lot of breaks. As a result those 200 victims drowned.
You'd think they would have learned from this, but they didn't. Let's turn our attention to the Marina District. After the fires had demolished 70% of the city. It was time to rebuild. All of the rubble and debris from the "cleanup" was dumped at the water's edge, and they built the Marina District on top. Even bodies are buried there to this day. They built upon "filled in" ground. Jump to the 1989 and where was the majority of the damage? The Marina District. Not only did the ground undergo "liquefcation", the buildings that burned or collapsed, were the very same buildings that "were built after the "codes" were abolished during the rebuilding in 1906.
Why is this similar to NO? 100+ years of experience is staring people dead in the eye, and they'd rather have it happen again.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum Not only did the ground undergo "liquefecation" , the buildings that burned or collapsed, were the very same buildings that "were built after the "codes" were abolished during the rebuilding in 1906.
Muahahaha :)
Sorry Karaya I cannot let this pass :D
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Originally posted by straffo
Muahahaha :)
Sorry Karaya I cannot let this pass :D
I didn't create the word, Geologists did. I remember discussing this Earthquake in GREAT DETAIL in my Historical Geology and Stratification classes in College.
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You need to open a french/english dictionnary to understand your typo :D *
Liquefaction is not Liquefecation :)
* look up fécation/défécation
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Originally posted by straffo
You need to open a french/english dictionnary to understand your typo :D *
Liquefaction is not Liquefecation :)
* look up fécation/défécation
Fixed, damn French! :rofl <> straffo
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Originally posted by Tiger
I'm sure GreyHound runs through there and pretty sure there are hundreds of Taxis around. There's always a bicycle or good old trusty pit-and-pat. When it comes to walking or risking my life with a Cat-5 hurricane bearing down on my below sea level town. I'm hitting the road walking.
You sir are an Idiot.
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Originally posted by JBA
Some have had no problem rebuiling,,perhaps they have a better work ethic, then the, "what has the govt. done for me lately lay about groups"
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0609,shaftel,72328,2.html
Vietnamese-owned businesses have reopened.........
New Orleans neighborhoods after Katrina and the federal government's reluctance to commit funds to the reconstruction of the whole of New Orleans, the Vietnamese community has gone ahead with not only returning, but presenting a plan for an enhanced neighborhood. "From day one [the city council] has been fighting for every neighborhood to return. They may have jump-started that process," Willard-Lewis said.
Alas, the first time a white cop shoots a black kid, every one of their stores will be burned to the ground
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Originally posted by McDeath
You sir are an Idiot.
Why? His post made perfect sense. What he said was "Every resource to leave NO was NOT exhausted." Therefore, why blame everyone else?
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I agree that we should keep the port open but so far... not one of you hand wringers has convinced me that the "people" of NO deserve anything other than what they got.
We will have more hurricanes .. more earthquakes and storms and floods of all types.
Get insurance or get out. I am not your keeper.
Toad... thanks for explaining the difference between the constitution and the right to have other people bail you out of every stupid decision you make.
And that is the crux of it... when the left can't win a global warming arguement.. they just call the other side names...
The left can't win this one either (except in the leftie media) so they resort to....calling those who won't pay names.
I don't owe NO a cent.
If I ever had any sympathy for them it has been exahausted with their constant whining and criminal behavior and their re election of the city staff that are probly the worst in any civilized country.
Their cereal bowl needs to be flooded again so that the coco puffs can float away.
lazs
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Cocoa puffs? Is that a race thing? C'mon, you can do better than that.
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It is a race thing but not mine. It is what the mayor of NO called his "people".
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
so... if a hurricane destroyed the levees in holland it would be the governments fault?
I hear what you are saying traveler. I am just one who says that the people and government of that state have failed themselves and that the city should be there only at individual risk.
lazs
I agree that each person holds the final responsibility for their own well being, however, you asked about the country of Holland, so far Europe has been protected by mother nature from hurricanes, that might change.
Homes built in a flood plain in Holland, along rivers and cannels must float by law. Would the Government leaders of Holland be responsible for encouraging it’s people to live in a flood zone? I believe that the answer to your question is, yes. I think Government leaders would take responsibility.
But the Government of Holland is built more around a Democratic Socialistic society rather then a Democratic Capitalistic one, I think I remember reading that their true tax rate on income is like 73% for total taxes paid. As opposed to our 56%. A true tax rate considers any and all taxes paid not just income tax.
That’s why I feel it would be best to allow the flood zone to flood and relocate the city and port of New Orleans, to areas that will not flood . Yes, it’s major undertaking, but I think it’s a better investment long term. The cost is not that much different then what will be expended on the levy system over the next decade.
Another option rather then moving or relocating New Orleans is to raise the land adjacent to the river by 20 feet for a 2,500 feet on each side of the river with a state of the art drainage and pumping system embedded as part of that 2,500 foot buffer zone. Take land fill from the devastated shore line. There is nothing left there on the shore line. The homes are all gone, the people are gone, all the roads have been undercut with wash out and are crumbling under pressure of the weight of the roadbed itself. It’s currently a waste land.
But our Federal Government is not thinking outside of the box, they would rather attack the problem and rebuild the existing levy system which is based on 18th century technology. So when they declare the area safe and encourage people to live there. Yes, I’d say that they will bare the responsibility after the next Katrina.
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traveler... I agree that the best thing would be to relocate. I disagree that the government should be responsible if their levees fail.
If that is the case then why would anyone need flood insurance at all? if it is the governments fault? I say if they do rebuild the levees that they certify em for a cat 2 hurricane. anything above that is you and your insurance companies risk.
That is what should be happening now of course. Insurance companies can insure based on the likelyhood of a hurricane over cat 2.
If insurance is too expensive then the people have the choice of leaving or taking the chance.
I don't think I should subsidize their lifestyle or fund their poor choices.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
traveler... I agree that the best thing would be to relocate. I disagree that the government should be responsible if their levees fail.
If that is the case then why would anyone need flood insurance at all? if it is the governments fault? I say if they do rebuild the levees that they certify em for a cat 2 hurricane. anything above that is you and your insurance companies risk.
That is what should be happening now of course. Insurance companies can insure based on the likelyhood of a hurricane over cat 2.
If insurance is too expensive then the people have the choice of leaving or taking the chance.
I don't think I should subsidize their lifestyle or fund their poor choices.
lazs
The fact is, No insurance company sells flood insurance in a flood zone. If you have a mortgage (as most home owners do at some point in their lives) the lender will insists that you get flood insurance.
Catch 22, no insurance company in the world will sell insurance to home owners in a flood zone. So about 50 years ago. The brain trust at the Federal Government came up with a plan.
They would get in bed with the insurance companies. The Federal Government would sell Federal Flood Insurance, that covered home owners in flood zones. The Federal Flood insurance program is backed by the Federal Government (that's you and me).
The way it works is this, if you own a home in a flood zone with a mortgage the mortgage holder will require that you have the home insured for fire and flood. You get the fire insurance from your local insurance company, you get your flood insurance from the Federal Government.
The Government gives the premium to the local Insurance Company as payment for the service of maintaining the flood insurance policy. You as the home owner don’t know who the insurance company is until there is a flood. At that point the insurance company settles the claim( for as little as they can). The Insurance Company pays the home owner for any damage.
The Insurance company then settles with the Federal Government. Where the home owner may have recovered 60 or 70 % from the Insurance Company. The Federal Government settles with the Insurance company for 100%.
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Yes.. I am aware of how flood insurance works here. We have floods all the time and the insurance companies (along with the feds) pay up.. the good companies pay better than the bad ones and..
Say what you want about kalifornia but... it does have some pretty decent insurance regulations to protect the people here...
Which is how it should be... governments sole role besides war should be to make sure that people do what they said they would do and are punished when they harm others.
lazs
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In a post, Chairboy mentioned again the old urban myth of all white Gretna Police officers shooting over black pedestrians heads and sicking attack dogs on them as they tried to escape to safety over the New Orleans Crescent City Connection after Katrina. Obviously, most police forces don't maintain a unit of "attack dogs" and I know for a fact Gretna is much to small to have such an elite unit, but in order to bring this myth down to reality, I offer a newspaper article of what happened that day. Its probably the most objective account of the incident I've seen and far different than the racist drama the late Ed Bradley presented on 60 minutes.
I also want to state, like the person in the article, I too was stopped from entering Algiers by a gun. In my case it was a national gaurdsman who pointed the gun and stopped me. Algiers was officially CLOSED. There were road blocks at all the entry points. I was stopped also on Sept 1. I could not enter Algiers until Labor day, Sept 6. Until that date, my entry was blocked by guardsman and police with guns. It was considered part of the disaster area and police have the right to prevent people from entering a disaster area. I have to admit, I never once saw "attack dogs."
Here's the article:
http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/09/bridge_blockade_after_katrina.html