Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Black Jack on August 30, 2007, 05:25:30 PM
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I would like to know how are u suppose to maneuver to stop a stalemate between two planes of the same type. For example, 2 spits 9 turning together at 800 feet of alt. Tried chopping throttle, flaps, everything i could think of. It's been 2 or 3 full circle that both planes are doing and no one is gaining. What should u do to try to get a shot on this guy. I tried before to go up a little, invert and come down on the other side of the circle but the time i'm going up and turning less gives time to my opponent to get closer. So when i come down, i can't cut the turn tight enough to have a shot. What is the best way to get that shot. Or maybe just to move away to get a better position later on?
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Although I can't completly help you with your problem, I can say this...
If you's were both turning a tight circle and you dropped your flaps full, I'd say the chances are your oppenent did the same thing considering you diden't start to gain any advantage on him. Since you are both in the same planes, you won't out turn him, you won't dive from him either, the planes are completly equal, so I would say your best bet would be to force an overshoot. There is a nice article "here" (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/) called "Forceing an overshoot" and even describes a similar situation to your own.
Hope this helps. :D
Airflyer(Dustin57)
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Black Jack ( ingame id? ),
whe you find yourself in a stalemate doing flat turns / circles.......the first to start turning in the oblique ( meaning transition to high & Low yoyo's) usually will be the first to gain the needed angles........
example: Slash27 and JimBeam ( if my memory serves me right ) was the last 2 in this particular KOTH round. They both had reached the point of a stalemate. Both were turning in the same plane of flight..as soon as Slash went to maneuver out of plane, he was able to gain angles in less than 2 1/2 revolutions/turning circles )......he broke the stalemate cycle first giving him the angles advantage, forcing his opponent to play catch up reacting to his maneuvering.......
my apologies if it was not JimBeam, for some reason that is the other player that popped out of my brain while typing this.
this also is not the one all cure all answer to a stalemate..but it is the basic starting point when it comes to stalemate situations........
hope this helps
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Black Jack ( ingame id? ),
whe you find yourself in a stalemate doing flat turns / circles.......the first to start turning in the oblique ( meaning transition to high & Low yoyo's) usually will be the first to gain the needed angles........
example: Slash27 and JimBeam ( if my memory serves me right ) was the last 2 in this particular KOTH round. They both had reached the point of a stalemate. Both were turning in the same plane of flight..as soon as Slash went to maneuver out of plane, he was able to gain angles in less than 2 1/2 revolutions/turning circles )......he broke the stalemate cycle first giving him the angles advantage, forcing his opponent to play catch up reacting to his maneuvering.......
my apologies if it was not JimBeam, for some reason that is the other player that popped out of my brain while typing this.
this also is not the one all cure all answer to a stalemate..but it is the basic starting point when it comes to stalemate situations........
hope this helps
Yup. Build up little advantages. Try going wings-level to get just a little extra altitude in the climb. Try pulling down to the inside of the turn to get a little extra speed. Things like that. You're essentially waiting the other guy out, building your little advantages, waiting for him to make a mistake.
- oldman
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I would keep turning until the guy got tired and broke away. :D
OR
Slightly poiny my nose down a little. This builds up a little bit more E, and if you use it wisley, you will be able to keep in the turn but start turning into his 6.
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Good points from everyone....:)
Surprised nobody mentioned the "MANUAL TRIM" !!
Wouldn't that be a good time to disengage the "combat trim" and give full up trim on elevetor. The difference in degrees on your elevator trim can give you the degrees giving you the edge for an inside shot !
It did work for me ! We turned and turned and suddenly I disengaged the combat trim and gave it full up on elevtor trim !
In the next seconds I turned inside and it gave me a shot !
Was it luck ? Was it the other pilot's lack of patience ?
Anyone ?
Phil:aok
Hey Black Jack ! You Canadian ?
CANADIAN EAGLES Fighter Sqdn is recruiting for pilots like you !
Pay is good !
Buy you a lunch and a cold beer if ya join !
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Manual Trim doesn't work that way. You don't get ANY "extra" deflection by using full up (or any other) trim. If anything the trim tab going down (for up trim) would actually seem to give you LESS effect, but that doesn't really matter from what I understand.
You'll need to do a search, as there have been many threads discussing this and i don't have time to type a lot here...
I don't doubt you were able to pull around the circle and beat your opponent, but it wasn't because the manual trim gave you any extra deflection.
MtnMan
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Been searchin' and reading a bit.
Found good article on site and trim does help pulling certain planes out of dives etc....
If the trim helps pulling your kite upwards, why wouldn't it help when doing flat stall turns and reducing your turn radius ?
I know it won't be a big difference but few degrees sometimes its what it needs to bring your sights on the enemy plane...
I saying the above with respect Mntman !
I'm not an expert in flying planes. Simply wanting to learn to be a better pilot and maybe one day compete with the big boys !
Salute
Phil:aok
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I'm not an expert in flying planes. Simply wanting to learn to be a better pilot and maybe one day compete with the big boys !
I would mention here that a critical step in this direction would be understanding the FACTS of how airplanes work, and how they are modeled in this game. You'll limit yourself severely if you fall into the trap of believing superstition over fact.
Been searchin' and reading a bit.
27 minutes worth? I looked back at a few posts myself, and found that you were involved in several that explained the way Manual Trim actually works in this game, verses the common mis-conceptions. One of the trainers even quoted Skuzzy refering to the fact that Manual Trim does not work as you describe.
If you don't believe me that's fine. I'd guess skuzzy has a pretty good understanding of how his product functions though.
MtnMan
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Think of it like one of those old 1/4 mile dirt tracks where they banked the corners way up. So instead of a pure circle its more oval, and the ends are higher than the straightaways.
Now try that with a plane once.
Finding the balance is the tricky part. Milk too much E and he'll pull angles on you. Not enough and your still stuck going round and round.
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Thank you very much, I'll try the obligue next time i'm caught in a stalemate like this. :)
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Have your wingman kill him.
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The best answer?
Don't get into those stalemates to begin with!
That's one reason I don't DA. All the DA is, is an exercise in who can force a stalemate first, or who can barrel roll the best in scissors, or who can dump the most E and bleed all their speed forcing that ONE post-merge, looped, shot.
Don't get into the stalemate, to begin with!
Of course, easier said than done. I guess you could say, don't fly so predictably that the enemy does the same thing as you, and you get trapped. I.E. If you immelman, and he does too, instead of coming back down and degenerating into a stalemate turn fight, try another immelman, or break the opposite way (figure 8 instead of circle) or whatever. These aren't the best examples, but hopefully you get what I'm saying.
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With respect MTNMAN...
Will certainly not argue with SKUZZY and other experienced plane pilots.( you included !)
As I said, I do not have advanced knowledge when it comes to advanced technical questions like this !
Obviously you also looked up some threads and observed that this topic was previously brought up by many including myself ....
What about the answer that TequilaChaser (AH TRAINING CORPS) provided when he answered one of my threads.(don't really know how to use the "quote" tool here !
:rolleyes:
If I understand correctly, he agrees that the trim can give you the littl' bit of degrees etc....
SKUZZY ? TecquilaChaser ? both have very good knowledge of this I'm sure !
Different words saying the same thing maybe ?
Sorry guy, still not TOTALLY CONVINCED !
Next time I'll take 28minutes instead of 27 ! Maybe I'll find the right answer !:aok
Salute !
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Originally posted by Phil
If the trim helps pulling your kite upwards, why wouldn't it help when doing flat stall turns and reducing your turn radius ?
Salute
Phil:aok
Because it does not work that way. Lift happens at the wing, not the tail. The stall happens at the wing, not the tail. Stall conditions are what limit the tightness of a sustained turn. If you can deflect the elevators to pull an angle of attack that will cause a stall, then it does not matter if you use all stick, all trim, or any combination of the two...You still stall at the same point.
There are no trim tabs on the the control surfaces in the game. Adjusting trim in the game simply moves the resting point of the virtual control surfaces in relation to the resting point (stick centered) of your joystick. The upper and lower limits of the range of the control surfaces do not change. There are no trim tabs that give an 'extra boost' of deflection.
The virtual control surfaces have the same range no matter how you have it trimmed. If you are going so fast that the physical force required to move the virtual stick is more than what your virtual pilot could possibly exert, then the controls will not respond to the stick. They may respond to trim at that point, but the range of motion of the control surfaces are the same. It's just that your pilot can't move them with the stick, but can using the trim.
That is the way it works, and Mtnman is correct.
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Will read and try to better understand this stuff !
Tsk Guys
MTNMAN, I will keep on reading and learning !
Salute !
Phil:aok
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Sorry !
Duplicated by error !
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Originally posted by Black Jack
I would like to know how are u suppose to maneuver to stop a stalemate between two planes of the same type. For example, 2 spits 9 turning together at 800 feet of alt.
Just some thoughts in addition to previous comments.
In this example, if both pilots are getting the most out of their aircraft, winning on turn radius is unlikely. That leaves a possible option of winning on rate of turn. If you can make a faster lap than the other guy without widening your turn too much, you will gain position. When one plane has WEP remaining while the other doesn't, that is usually enough to slowly gain position. Another way to make that happen is to make your turns slightly nose up for some revolutions to bank a bit of altitude, then take your turns nose down, and use that extra bit of speed to make some 'fast laps'. That is assuming both planes have nearly the same radius point.
Another way is to use yo-yos to shift your radius point away from theirs a bit. So instead of two identical turn circles stacked on each other, we have two turn circles slightly off set from each other. Once that is the scenerio, there is a point in the circle where if you are there at the right time, you'll have a momentary shot each revolution. Then it's a matter of getting positions so that you have that shot, while denying the opponent the same opportunity at the opposite side of the circle. Either way, once someone has position for a shot each lap, the stalemate is broken, because one plane will have to either change his circle or die.
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"stalemate"
(pipes up; nb I am not a dogfighter)
Would the relative aircraft weights have any noticeable, or useful, effect, assuming in this case that both players have managed their fuel well, and that the difference is slight?
E.g. if the attacker took off with a reduced fuel load and drop tanks, which he has dropped, and the defender took off with reduced fuel, the two aircraft would have very similar but not identical weights (and there would be expended ammo to take into account as well).
In the long run one of the fighters would run out of fuel, especially if using WEP, which would break the stalemate. Although it would also be lighter than the other fighter, which might break the stalemate in the other direction.
It doesn't sound sportsmanlike to try and run the other man out of fuel, but then again this isn't cricket.