Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Yarbles on August 31, 2007, 06:38:39 AM
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Not sure I understand why but the B25 apparently kills tanks with an HE round? :confused:
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Not inconceivable, as armor thickness on certain tanks is different on certain parts of the tank, i.e. front is very thick, but thinner on the back. Also you can track a tank and if they .ef you get the kill. 75mm is nothing to thumb your nose at, even in a tank and even if it's HE and not AP.
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Would you expect to be able to destroy another tank with a tank 75mm He shell? Assuming you hit it in the right place.
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Under certain circumstances an AH jeep can appear to kill a tank with a mg round.
But to take a direct correlation a Panzer Mk IV can appear to kill a tank with a 76mm HE round.
Given that HTC has a very good general deliniation between HE and AP rounds of the same calibre and muzzle velocity it is more probable that B25 pilits experience the sometimes wierd effects of the damage attribution model and earn kills when infact their weapon could never have polished off the victim on its own.
When a victim is "killed" the program looks up a damage file to see who did the most damage and awards the kill appropriately.............. or sometimes seemingly inappropriately
Agressors are who have died or landed are deleted from the list whilst they may have indeed contributed the most damage.
Agressors who have brought about the final "killing" blow may not be awarded the kill because another has already affected more damage "points". (if the killing blow had massive destructive power only that part required to inflict final component failure will be counted {as a straw so to speak})
Agressors who have brought about loss of victims flight due to a few precision shots at a critical component may not be awarded the kill because others have scored more damage points across other (wider) areas.
and when you start to combine the above wierd (but fortunately not to common) stuff can happen.
e.g Assuming a wing comes off at 10 units of damage
Player1 inflicts 7 units of wing damage via 20mm cannon fire then dies or lands.
Player2 inflicts 2 units of wing damage via .303 fire and runs out of ammo.
Player3 inflicts 5 units of wing damage via 30mm cannon fire and the wing falls off.
Player2 gets the kill. Only 1 of Player 3's damage points count
Unless of course Player3 then follows the victim down and puts another 3 units into another component before the victim actually dies or bails.
Having said all that if your sure that you came along and were the only player to fire HE at a tank and kill it then HTC (and ergo the rest of the playing comunity) would be greatly assisted by any film you can send them so they can find out what happened in greater detail than we have access to.
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Which I understand to mean you should not regularly be able to kill tanks with a B25 on its own:aok
That would be my understanding as "Tank Killers" fired AP and if HE had the same effect why bother with AP at all.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, it makes things allot clearer and explains inevitable anomolies. I guess in my ideal world the kill should not go to anyone except the killer and if he/she is down no one. That aspect doesnt really relate to anything other than the game so whatever gives the greatiest happiness I guess.
Anyway Tilt I hope you,ve got a motorbike the roads around Banbury are some of the best in the south (Says I)
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From reports, the B25s are not "kill stealing" -- they are killing. I think the B-25H's gun is overmodeled quite a bit.
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Originally posted by Krusty
From reports, the B25s are not "kill stealing" -- they are killing. I think the B-25H's gun is overmodeled quite a bit.
My impression exactly, as in one shot = 1 kill is what I have been hearing. I personally think that is historically innacurate and upsets the balance between GV's and Aircraft.
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You guys should go try to kill tanks in the 25 before having an opinion.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
You guys should go try to kill tanks in the 25 before having an opinion.
Point taken but I dont really want to do that and I think as with any plane you have to become profficient before you achieve results which involves a certain investment in time.
I wasnt trying to voice a firm opinion I was initially trying to reconcile what I had heard with historical fact and it seems Krusty has heard the same thing.
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Folks like WideWing (and others) have already tested it for us. 1 or 2 hits and folks are killing tanks outright (not just disabling). I agree with Yarbles that this unbalances things and is not historically accurate.
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It took me 3 shots in a M4's rear before getting a kill. Even then another tank hit it with an AP round and I was awarded the kill.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Folks like WideWing (and others) have already tested it for us. 1 or 2 hits and folks are killing tanks outright (not just disabling). I agree with Yarbles that this unbalances things and is not historically accurate.
Well, the context of the B-25H's usage in the game is often not historic. Then again, Spitfires fighting P-51s and Corsairs isn't historic either. The basis for historical accuracy are the aircraft and vehicles, not the battles they fight. In the game, people will employ assets as they need them.
Had the B-25H had been deployed to the 9th AF, they would have been attacking armor with them. The T13E1/M6 75mm HE round had enough kinetic energy to punch thru thin armor, up to 50mm under certain circumstances at 100 yards as established at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1943. At 500 yards it could still penetrate 25mm at 90 degrees. That's just penetration, and does not include the secondary effect of the explosive charge (test rounds at Aberdeen were inert).
Thus, it should not be considered unusual for a B-25H to knock out armor with a well placed or just lucky hit.
My regards,
Widewing
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One thing to consider is that B-25s, like any other plane in this game, is also often with non historical tactics because there is no risk of dying involved for the player.
When I am killing tanks in HurriD / B-25, I go in at angles and distances which border on suicidal. And sometimes I cross that border.
Real life HurriD pilots attacked their prey in very low level runs from behind. Very dangerous, but certainly not as dangerous as my 60° dives on Tiger tanks with pulling up at the very last possible moment. I can live with augering at one of every ten sorties. A real life pilot could not...
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Exactly. All of the one-ping tank kills I hear about online from B-25s are at under 400yds to the rear or turret. I've yet to hear of one-ping clean kills from distances of 1000yds or greater vs armor (against M-16s, however.... mwahahahahaaaa!) The most I've done is smoked the engine on a Tiger, and possibly tracked a Panzer (was awarded kills for both) and that was at right around 1000yds out.
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i recently landed 17 kills in a b25h every single one was a perfect kill on a panzer or Hitthe same sweet spot almost every time, from behind the panzer and just under the turret one shot kills, its not kill stealing almost all the tanks were untouched and newly spawned.
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That's just wrong. :huh
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Hmm I can imagine a small perk value.. but I haven't made up my mind on that issue yet. Let's wait 'till a full tour is completed.
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Nerf the main gun a bit in regards to armor penetration, and it probably won't need a perk.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
i recently landed 17 kills in a b25h every single one was a perfect kill on a panzer or Hitthe same sweet spot almost every time, from behind the panzer and just under the turret one shot kills, its not kill stealing almost all the tanks were untouched and newly spawned.
Sweet, I know what I'm doing this weekend.
I bet you were getting cursed out by every GV squeaker for about an hour.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Nerf the main gun a bit in regards to armor penetration, and it probably won't need a perk.
The question is: Do we need to nerf the main gun because it's wrong modeled, or because it's unbalancing gameplay? The latter one would get a big "NO!" from me. Weapon performance in this should be in every case modeled on hard real world data. If a weapon has a "unbalancing" impact on game just because of a ahistorical useage, it's a perk issue.
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Posted by Widewing
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Had the B-25H had been deployed to the 9th AF, they would have been attacking armor with them. The T13E1/M6 75mm HE round had enough kinetic energy to punch thru thin armor, up to 50mm under certain circumstances at 100 yards as established at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1943. At 500 yards it could still penetrate 25mm at 90 degrees. That's just penetration, and does not include the secondary effect of the explosive charge (test rounds at Aberdeen were inert).
WW,
were the tests shots at Aberdeen taken with a stationary cannon? The extra 300-400 fps speed from the B-25's forward motion and increased kinetic energy must certainly have an impact. Won't that give the round additional penetration?
Regards,
Optiker
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Originally posted by Krusty
I think the B-25H's gun is overmodeled quite a bit.
Please provide any sources to back this up. "I feel" or "I think" just doesn't cut it.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Optiker
Posted by Widewing
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Had the B-25H had been deployed to the 9th AF, they would have been attacking armor with them. The T13E1/M6 75mm HE round had enough kinetic energy to punch thru thin armor, up to 50mm under certain circumstances at 100 yards as established at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1943. At 500 yards it could still penetrate 25mm at 90 degrees. That's just penetration, and does not include the secondary effect of the explosive charge (test rounds at Aberdeen were inert).
WW,
were the tests shots at Aberdeen taken with a stationary cannon? The extra 300-400 fps speed from the B-25's forward motion and increased kinetic energy must certainly have an impact. Won't that give the round additional penetration?
Regards,
Optiker
Yes, the gun was fixed. It was fired at various thicknesses of cold rolled homogeneous steel plate. The M6 version of the T13E1 was developed for the M-24 Chaffee, which required the T13E1 type compact recoil system to fit within the turret. Ammunition was interchangeable between the two guns (and the M3 75mm gun too)
Penetration would be boosted to some degree if the weapon was moving towards the target, especially at speeds of 200 mph or greater. I know that the 5th AF experimented with CP fuzes for the B-25's 75mm. CP stands for Concrete Penetrator. These fuzes proved too hard for barges and lightly skinned vessels as they simply went through from side to side, detonating in the sea. They also experimented with APC "Super" 75mm rounds.. However, no record exists of these being used on actual combat missions.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Optiker
WW,
were the tests shots at Aberdeen taken with a stationary cannon? The extra 300-400 fps speed from the B-25's forward motion and increased kinetic energy must certainly have an impact. Won't that give the round additional penetration?
Regards,
Optiker
300fps shouldn't affect it to this extent.
Ack-Ack: I don't have the numbers you request. However, if this vehicle was such hot sh** then it would have been knocking out tanks all over France. Keep in mind it was used all over the ETO and MTO and WTO as well! Quite a few vehicles there, and if they had this super, uber tank killing weapon, they would have used it (especially the Soviets, they'd have requested it by the thousands).
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Originally posted by Krusty
300fps shouldn't affect it to this extent.
Ack-Ack: I don't have the numbers you request. However, if this vehicle was such hot sh** then it would have been knocking out tanks all over France. Keep in mind it was used all over the ETO and MTO and WTO as well! Quite a few vehicles there, and if they had this super, uber tank killing weapon, they would have used it (especially the Soviets, they'd have requested it by the thousands).
Umm no it wouldn't. The b-25c was hit and run. We are just flying it unhistorical.
Bronk
Edit: not sure why I hit the "C" key, meant H.
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We're talking the H here, not the C. The C isn't a super tank-killing demon. The H is. If this plane were so damn hot, it wouldn't have been dumped at the first chance of ANY other variant. It wouldn't have had the cannon removed and 50cals stuck in the gaping hole it left.
Sure, it's being used a-historically, but HISTORICALLY they knew the potential of it, and they HISTORICALLY had need of tank killing machines all over Europe and non-PTO theaters. If it were this potent, historically, it would have been the only ground attack platform used against axis armor.
Instead, it was not. They knew what it could do, they decided to stop producing it. There's a link between the two.
EDIT: Rather than say "prove it's wrong" I ask you: Prove it's RIGHT! Prove to me that a plane without armor piercing shells not hitting at 90 degrees (often 45 degrees based on angle of attack run) is going to penetrate hardened steel targets at the worst angle possible to hit them, and kill some of the best tanks in the war with 1 hit. Prove it's RIGHT, the way it is. :lol
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Krusty how long do you think the h would last without fighter escort?
There is no way in hell a pilot would fly the H the way we do in game.
Bronk
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All this talk about B-25Hs killing tanks in one shot directly contradicts my own experiences. I fired at a Firefly, hitting on the left side of the turret and I watched as my 75mm round bounced off into the air and hit a friendly IL2 in the wing that resulted in my death by killshooter.
I re-upped and made a pass at a Panzer and watched my 75mm rounds bounce off. Only when I hit the track did I do any damage to it, immobilizing it. I was then able to make repeated passes on the rear of the Panzer and eventually took it out but only when a friendly came and finished it off with some rockets.
Only when I was going after light armored vehicles like an Ostie or M8 did I ever achieve a 1 hit kill.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I fired at a Firefly, hitting on the left side of the turret and I watched as my 75mm round bounced off into the air and hit a friendly IL2 in the wing that resulted in my death by killshooter.
OMFG!! Did you get this on film?!?! I'd LOVE to see!
Bronk: Ju87Gs are dogmeat if a fighter finds them. So are IL2s. So are many other planes with anti-tank-guns throughout the war. Enemy air cover wasn't always around, didn't always know where you were, and often these anti-tank planes could get in and get out before fighters found them.
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Originally posted by Krusty
EDIT: Rather than say "prove it's wrong" I ask you: Prove it's RIGHT! Prove to me that a plane without armor piercing shells not hitting at 90 degrees (often 45 degrees based on angle of attack run) is going to penetrate hardened steel targets at the worst angle possible to hit them, and kill some of the best tanks in the war with 1 hit. Prove it's RIGHT, the way it is. :lol
Do you even read Widewing's posts, or simply ignore them because they don't fit your particular world view?
I suppose by your logic, the 500lb HE bombs should have no effect against tanks either, eh? After all, they are only high explosive, not armor piercing.
By the way, HE fired from tanks will kill other tanks too, so it isn't like there is some special modeling of the B-25H's 75mm gun.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
All this talk about B-25Hs killing tanks in one shot directly contradicts my own experiences. I fired at a Firefly, hitting on the left side of the turret and I watched as my 75mm round bounced off into the air and hit a friendly IL2 in the wing that resulted in my death by killshooter.
I re-upped and made a pass at a Panzer and watched my 75mm rounds bounce off. Only when I hit the track did I do any damage to it, immobilizing it. I was then able to make repeated passes on the rear of the Panzer and eventually took it out but only when a friendly came and finished it off with some rockets.
Only when I was going after light armored vehicles like an Ostie or M8 did I ever achieve a 1 hit kill.
ack-ack
You have to get close, real close. Under 300 yards is best.
Also, I have seen 75mm bounce off tanks too. They should not. These rounds would be fitted with contact fuzes, which will detonate between 12 and 20 milliseconds after impacting any substantial object, even up to 70 degrees oblique. Fuzing could be changed to delayed fuzes, hardened fuzes, VT fuzes and so on. However, those used by B-25s would have the standard contact fuze (M48 fuze, I believe).
My regards,
Widewing
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E25280, yes I have. Have you read mine?
I've taken a tank and forgotten AP rounds enough times to know that HE rounds from larger, better, guns than on the B-25H still don't kill like it does. Meanwhile, while you're firing multiple rounds dead on to the enemy, he notices you and kills you in 1.
As an aside: Forgetting AP rounds while in a GV sucks!
EDIT: hey, it's possible I'm over-reacting a little -- but some of it is warranted.
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Originally posted by Krusty
OMFG!! Did you get this on film?!?! I'd LOVE to see!
Bronk: Ju87Gs are dogmeat if a fighter finds them. So are IL2s. So are many other planes with anti-tank-guns throughout the war. Enemy air cover wasn't always around, didn't always know where you were, and often these anti-tank planes could get in and get out before fighters found them.
Unfortunately, due to the film bug it didn't save. It was funny though, still is actually ^__^
ack-ack
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The targeting system for the historical 75mm gun on the B-25H made it a radar guided weapon. The radar operator locked up the target and adjusted the radar return between two tick marks on the radar scope. As long as the operator kept the return bracketed, the pilot merely had to put the crosshairs on the target and fire. This guidance was good out to 6000 yards. Further, the radar was developed to be used against targets on the water (shipping) where there would be very little background clutter to obscure the return. It was tested against ground targets and found to be much less effective, since getting good radar returns was difficult. Since HTC can't model this accurately, we're given a point and click type weapon that doesn't perform historically with respect to employment. The damage potential of a historical 75mm is almost moot in my opinion. With a payload that includes the potential to take out up to 6 tanks in a single sortie (6X500lb bombs), who cares about the destructive potential of the cannon round?
As a caveat, you can destroy the structure of a hangar with simple MG bullets as a result of the damage system within the game. So to is it possible to kill tanks with a weapon that was not historically intended to do so. Personally, I like the threat that the B-25 poses to GV's, especially when they attack an airfield. IMO, the B-25H encourages a much more balanced use of combined arms by the GV'ers as having a flak along is now a necessity, if not actual fighter cover. So, even though the individual vehicle is now much more exposed, game play is more balanced, as a single tank cannot now take out a field on its own.
A perk assigned? Perhaps. Un-historical employment? Yes. A fundamental change to AH in the MA? No. Un-ending fun blasting stuff with the pumpkin chucker? Absolutely...
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Good.
The more GV killers we have - the better.
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Originally posted by bozon
Good.
The more GV killers we have - the better.
Any gv killer that does not need ORD bunkers is a good thing.
and hunting the gv killers is even more fun :cool:
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All the one-hit kills of gv's I've made using the B-25H have been from well inside 1000 yds. Probably inside of 500.
I've also been killed quite often from a main gun hit. Unhistorical? Perhaps.
And, as for HE gv vs. gv, I've killed a Panzer with an M-8's 37mm firing HE. But again, i was pretty close and firing from the rear.
wrngway
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Couple nights ago I made repeated attack runs against a Panzer. Even when I tagged him with the 75mm from directly behind him at UNDER 400yds I didn't even smoke his engine.
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what i do is i fly low to the ground at high speeds ounce close to the target i cut the the engins at then about 300 away i open up and watch as i get a kill without the victum ever knowing i was thare then start up the engins and find another target:lol
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I love hearing all this crying about using a weapon "in a manner that's not historical".
For Pete's sake, we finally get a weapon that keeps GV'rs from hitting .EF every time they hear a bomb falling, and that's a bad thing? How accurate is it that there's an osty or M-16 parked on the tarmack that can bail and land kills when I dump 2000lb of ordinance on them?
Not very.
Thank goodness for the 75mm. Yeah, it takes some cojones and skill to use, but when it lands it should bring on the hurt. Especially against the relatively thin skin of any GV's top/rear armor.
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quote:
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Wednesday, July 28, 1943 was a warm day off the island of New Britain in the Bismarck Sea. Three Japanese destroyers were steaming on course 280° over the flat, mirror like water at 20 knots. Suddenly a lookout called "aircraft, low off the port beam!". Another lookout identified the planes as American B-25 bombers, notorious for their "skip bombing" against destroyers. All guns were trained on the interlopers. Suddenly, while the aircraft were still more than a mile (1.6 km) away, a great geyser of water shot up close by the destroyers. The lookouts began frantically searching the sea; there had to be a ship close by with cannon aboard. But there was none! Suddenly, one of the destroyers was hit. It exploded in flames and sank in just a few minutes. Was it possible these aircraft had some new and diabolical weapon?
On the contrary; it was the very same old 75 mm M-4 field cannon used to rout the Germans in WW1! A few months before the incident, Colonel Paul Gunn of the US Fifth Air Force in Australia, had experimented with the installation of a 20 mm cannon in the nose of a B-25. Colonel Gunn, abetted by a North American Aviation Company Tech Rep named Jack Fox, sent the idea to North American in Inglewood, California where it was promptly taken a step further and worked into the installation of the 75 mm cannon.
...It required a crewman to load, fire and extract the casing. And when it fired it felt like the aircraft had "hit a brick wall", but with its 2.95 inch (75 mm) projectile, it could turn a tank into scrap metal and punch very large holes in Japanese destroyers and barges at a range of nearly 2 miles...
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http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/b25.html
*edit: this article was about the 'G'; the H improved on the design...
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Originally posted by Warspawn
quote:
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Wednesday, July 28, 1943 was a warm day off the island of New Britain in the Bismarck Sea. Three Japanese destroyers were steaming on course 280° over the flat, mirror like water at 20 knots. Suddenly a lookout called "aircraft, low off the port beam!". Another lookout identified the planes as American B-25 bombers, notorious for their "skip bombing" against destroyers. All guns were trained on the interlopers. Suddenly, while the aircraft were still more than a mile (1.6 km) away, a great geyser of water shot up close by the destroyers. The lookouts began frantically searching the sea; there had to be a ship close by with cannon aboard. But there was none! Suddenly, one of the destroyers was hit. It exploded in flames and sank in just a few minutes. Was it possible these aircraft had some new and diabolical weapon?
On the contrary; it was the very same old 75 mm M-4 field cannon used to rout the Germans in WW1! A few months before the incident, Colonel Paul Gunn of the US Fifth Air Force in Australia, had experimented with the installation of a 20 mm cannon in the nose of a B-25. Colonel Gunn, abetted by a North American Aviation Company Tech Rep named Jack Fox, sent the idea to North American in Inglewood, California where it was promptly taken a step further and worked into the installation of the 75 mm cannon.
...It required a crewman to load, fire and extract the casing. And when it fired it felt like the aircraft had "hit a brick wall", but with its 2.95 inch (75 mm) projectile, it could turn a tank into scrap metal and punch very large holes in Japanese destroyers and barges at a range of nearly 2 miles...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/b25.html
*edit: this article was about the 'G'; the H improved on the design...
But strangely the basic 75mm in an M4 as opposed to the firefly version did not share this awesome reputation. If only they had thought to load the HE instead of the AP round Fritz would not have stood a chance whether in a Panzer or maybe even a Tiger eh.
Japanese Tanks like Japanese planes were made out of rice paper strengthened with bamboo. (They always have lacked raw materials)
How about we keep a firm grip on the facts here, Tankers were extremely unhappy with the 75mm with an AP round let alone an HE. the drive was to up gun allied tanks. So if this is to be a WW2 simulation remeber from the Air rockets and bombs were feared not some imaginary magical weapon that was less than ordinary when used on the ground:rolleyes:
And even more :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I think I detect sometimes a longing in the collective American Psyche here to discover and exploit some Uber weapon. We had it with the M4 firefly (Which essentially derived its success form the gun but the armour was over modelled) now we have the B25 tank buster:O .
The only US uber weapon as I understand it in the game is the P51 Ultra long range escourt fighter.
The real US Uber weapons were however mass production and the Atom Bomb.
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Originally posted by Yarbles
But strangely the basic 75mm in an M4 as opposed to the firefly version did not share this awesome reputation.
Was the M4 flying at 250 mph over the trees ? ;)
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Originally posted by straffo
Was the M4 flying at 250 mph over the trees ? ;)
It may well do when the basic M4 comes to AH and Iam sure if it did there are some on here who will think it a good idea.
Do you reeeeeaaaaally think your 250mph would make that much difference to an HE shell. All smacks of a bit of wishfull thinking going on :rolleyes:
See above
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Can a M4 fire from above ?
According to this chart http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/usa_guns5.html it can penetrate 76 or 66mm at 457 yard.
Top armour of a tank is not as thick as front or side armour,I won't be surprised if it's below 50mm.
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Originally posted by straffo
Can a M4 fire from above ?
According to this chart http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/usa_guns5.html it can penetrate 76 or 66mm at 457 yard.
Top armour of a tank is not as thick as front or side armour,I won't be surprised if it's below 50mm.
They are all AP shells not HE carried by the B25. We know an M4 75mm firing AP could take out a Tiger form behind. But with AP standing for Armoured Piercing. The title of this is B25 tank killer as in:
"Not sure I understand why but the B25 apparently kills tanks with an HE round?"
We know that Tanks up to the Panzer Mark 4 could be dealt with by the Sherman and the Cromwell but crucially with a specifically designed AP round.
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The 25 carries HE shells exculsively, Yarbles.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
The 25 carries HE shells exculsively, Yarbles.
Indeed and precisely what this is all about.
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Originally posted by Yarbles
Indeed and precisely what this is all about.
My bad, I misread your post. :confused:
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Originally posted by scottydawg
My bad, I misread your post. :confused:
I dont know either :confused:
There is this whole thing about Historical accuracy, I think it unlikely we can model the tactics but I think we should at least try and get the planes and vehicles right. For me its a big part of the enjoyment in noticing the accuracy and also feeling you are learning a bit more about the reality. The firefly was brought in precisely because the basic M4 would be such a weak choice against the exiting tanks. That made sense but the armour was it seemed too strong especially compared to the Tiger and as a rare breed is has been rightly perked. I think maybe the B25 would be about as usefull as the JU88 on late war if it wasn't for the 75mm gun. If this is not accurate then the gun should be changed and if that makes the 25 unpopular it may rightly effect voting habits on new planes in the future. ;)
I think if we lack anything it is a decent perked Bomber aas we have the Tiger and M4 plus plenty of great perked Fighters.
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I'm in agreement with the above posters that anything that can take out tanks from the air when ords are down is a good thing. Now we just need the Ju87G, Hs129, and Mosquito with the tse tse.
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As I believe WW pointed out, there were a number of different fuses that were used with the 75mm, and the one primarily used in the B-25 exploded on contact (because with time-delay they had a problem with shells punching through ship hulls before exploding, thus minimizing damage).
To be more fair to the B-25's gun, it would be MORE appropriate to compare the type of fuse used in the 25H vs. the HE rounds used in the M4.
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Originally posted by TUXC
I'm in agreement with the above posters that anything that can take out tanks from the air when ords are down is a good thing. Now we just need the Ju87G, Hs129, and Mosquito with the tse tse.
Agreed as long as its reasonable accurate and anecdotal evidence suggeste it is not.
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Originally posted by Saxman
To be more fair to the B-25's gun, it would be MORE appropriate to compare the type of fuse used in the 25H vs. the HE rounds used in the M4.
True. Even without the addition of high explosive energy to the impact, the pure kinetic energy of a pound plus of steel traveling at the muzzle velocity of the cannon plus whatever speed was imparted by the aircraft would have a significant effect on the upper armor of a WWII fighting vehicle.
Field guns and mortars could destroy a tank with a direct hit from above, and these were all HE rounds. No reason that a similar weapon carried by an aircraft firing from above wouldn't have a devastating effect as well.
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It really puzzles me why you folks continue to simply disregard WW's post.
Originally posted by Widewing
The T13E1/M6 75mm HE round had enough kinetic energy to punch thru thin armor, up to 50mm under certain circumstances at 100 yards as established at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1943. At 500 yards it could still penetrate 25mm at 90 degrees. That's just penetration, and does not include the secondary effect of the explosive charge (test rounds at Aberdeen were inert).
So, 2 inches at 100 yards and an inch at 500 yards, without the benefit of an explosion following.
250MPH not make a difference? The M6 gun has a muzzle velocity of around 2000 feet per second. 250MPH is about 367 feet per second. 18% added muzzle velocity is not going to have an effect on penetration? What a curious assertion.
Shells do not instantaneously explode on contact. 16lbs of HE set on the ground next to a tank might not do much, but encase it in metal and slam it into the side of the armor plate at 2000 fps, you bet that is going to have an effect. Yes, AP would be better, but to act as if an HE round is completely ineffective is silly.
Originally posted by Yarbles
How about we keep a firm grip on the facts here, Tankers were extremely unhappy with the 75mm with an AP round let alone an HE. the drive was to up gun allied tanks. So if this is to be a WW2 simulation remeber from the Air rockets and bombs were feared not some imaginary magical weapon that was less than ordinary when used on the ground.
So let's see . . . because you can kill a tank with a shot to the side or rear, the 75mm gun on the B-25H is a "magical weapon?" :lol News flash for you -- HE from a Panzer or T-34 can kill tanks in the game too if you hit the side or rear at close range. Why should the B-25H's weapon be any different?
The 75mm gun was considered inadequate because of the opposition it faced. The German guns could outrange it and had much more effective armor penetration. The German tanks (i.e. targets) were often Panthers that had more armor than the Shermans. Yes, if I can't kill him with a frontal shot at 1000 yards but he can kill me, then my weapon is "inadequate."
Inadequate is not "ineffective." You act as if the 75mm was incapable of anything. Any unbiased assessment of the facts will show that to be untrue. But as with so many things about events that occurred 65 years ago, you are taking anecdotes and "reputations" as gospel.
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Originally posted by E25280
It really puzzles me why you folks continue to simply disregard WW's post. So, 2 inches at 100 yards and an inch at 500 yards, without the benefit of an explosion following.
250MPH not make a difference? The M6 gun has a muzzle velocity of around 2000 feet per second. 250MPH is about 367 feet per second. 18% added muzzle velocity is not going to have an effect on penetration? What a curious assertion.
Shells do not instantaneously explode on contact. 16lbs of HE set on the ground next to a tank might not do much, but encase it in metal and slam it into the side of the armor plate at 2000 fps, you bet that is going to have an effect. Yes, AP would be better, but to act as if an HE round is completely ineffective is silly.
So let's see . . . because you can kill a tank with a shot to the side or rear, the 75mm gun on the B-25H is a "magical weapon?" :lol News flash for you -- HE from a Panzer or T-34 can kill tanks in the game too if you hit the side or rear at close range. Why should the B-25H's weapon be any different?
The 75mm gun was considered inadequate because of the opposition it faced. The German guns could outrange it and had much more effective armor penetration. The German tanks (i.e. targets) were often Panthers that had more armor than the Shermans. Yes, if I can't kill him with a frontal shot at 1000 yards but he can kill me, then my weapon is "inadequate."
Inadequate is not "ineffective." You act as if the 75mm was incapable of anything. Any unbiased assessment of the facts will show that to be untrue. But as with so many things about events that occurred 65 years ago, you are taking anecdotes and "reputations" as gospel.
HE HE AND LOL (At myself) :o
Thanks for this you have straightened things out for me. I think your saying an HE round can pierce the armour of a tank from behind above and the side if fired at close range.
I hope then this is correctly modelled in the game :)
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Keep in mind, most of these kills are from 400 and closer. "most"
Most gv wars, are from 1.0 and closer.
Dont be mad because you didnt look up :P
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So far the best I have done is killed a few M16s, LVTs and a PT with it. I have also seen my rounds bounce off panzers, M4s, a tiger:D (didn't expect to kill him) and heck once even a M8 (maybe got his tires when the round deflected into the ground:D). I'd really like to know how to use this "point and kill" weapon.
But then again I fired from over 1000yards. LVT kills were lucky hits in driver area I think.
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A shot to the engine compartment of a Panzer MkIV does wonders.
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/B25_Panzer.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/B25-Tank2.jpg)
He blew up right after the second pic before I even got past.
North American Aviation Rules.
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I kill tanks with the B-25H's 75mm all of the time, I have landed 18 kills before on just panzers and Shermans. All you have to do is come up behind them under 500 ft and put a round square into the rear of the tank. The only tanks I have found this not to work well on is the T-34 and almost totally infective against Tigers.
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T-34 you need a side shot at the drivers compartment.
Tiger you need to go through turret top armor.
Bronk
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I see no problem with this setup. I have used the B25H to destroy tanks before, but it is far from simple.
One counter argument to the tank killing ability of the B25 is that the tanks can fire back!! I have been killed by the main gun of the tank I was attacking quite often. I don't know if these were just incredibly lucky shots or incredibly gifted GV drivers, but it happens to me very frequently. Now that is one thing that I am sure never happened in real life. I don't hear anyone complaining that they got shot by the main gun of a tank, should we be throwing that in the argument too?
BTW, nice pics fencer. That is the enema attack?
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My experience with hitting GVs with the 25H is as follows:
M16s, Jeeps, M3s: No problem. Lob a shell from 1.5k out and watch 'em pop.
M8s: Haven't run into any yet, but don't expect much trouble
PTs: Every time I get a B-25H where PTs are operating, they're all gone by the time I get there and I got nothing to shoot at.
Ostwinds: If I'm patrolling and see a Flak, I call in cover to keep his attention. Doesn't work much if they're travelling in packs
M4s: Only ran up against one so far in the 25H, but I put a LOT of shells into him, some under 200yds from direct rear with no appreciable damage caused. I didn't even get the kill when he finally popped.
Panzers: Seems I engage Panzers more often than anything else. Once I've taken a main gun round (which I agree is just silly). I've also been single-ping P/Ked by the pintail once or twice, as well as P/Wed. In regards to damage caused...
I've managed to single-ping Panzers maybe twice. On at least several occaisons I've put MULTIPLE shells into the tracks directly broadside at under 200yds and not even slowed him down. Last night I put about 6 rounds into one before he finally went down, including two square on his back end (definitely no ricochet).
LVTs: Ran up against one LVT. Dude took two direct 75mm and a good healthy burst of .50cal before dying.
Tigers: Only seen one Tiger in the Mitch. Single round through the engine disabled him
T-34s: Can't remember having come across a T-34 yet.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
All this talk about B-25Hs killing tanks in one shot directly contradicts my own experiences. I fired at a Firefly, hitting on the left side of the turret and I watched as my 75mm round bounced off into the air and hit a friendly IL2 in the wing that resulted in my death by killshooter.
ack-ack
LOL.... Best Kill Shooter EVAR :p
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the other day i was in the B25h model and I found a tiger when i was looking for panzers, so i dove straight down on top of it and fired just the 75mm cannon, the round hit just to the left of the turrent on the top of the hull and BOOM it killed it. it was amazing i didnt think i could do anything to it exept track it but i was wrong!!! it was awsome!!!
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All this gnashing of teeth over a new weapon in AH and it's effects not being historical yet very little discussion about the neutered effects of droped ords.
1k bombs having little or no effect when droped outside of 25 yards of a GV is much less historical, IMO.
The question should be, what's good for gameplay. Since that seems to be the driving force for the effectiveness, or lack thereof, in AH weaponery modeling.
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While killing panzers and osti's with single hits in the side is a lot of fun, I'm a bit irritated that rounds bounce off ships. I don't believe I was at a significant angle compared to the part of the ship I hit, but when several rounds bounced, I gave up.
Anyone else having similar experiences?
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the m8 is an easy kill if it is driving strait or stoped it is easy unfortunately no m8 unless driven by a noob would have it standing still
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Originally posted by evenhaim
i recently landed 17 kills in a b25h every single one was a perfect kill on a panzer or Hitthe same sweet spot almost every time, from behind the panzer and just under the turret one shot kills, its not kill stealing almost all the tanks were untouched and newly spawned.
That is a pretty interesting statement considering you only had 4 kills on Panzers during the tour of Aug. Killing tanks with the B-25H is a pretty hard thing to do. Sure you can take out an engine, turret or pop a track, but to get a solid one shot, one kill on a tank is more a thing of luck and less an exercise of skill.
I remember a about 3-4 years ago killing a Panzer with the 20mms on the C-Hog. My aim was dead on, but the fact the tank went boom was totally a matter of luck. So, these things can happen. However it is a fluke and nothing more.
The B-25 is a slow lumbering target. It's 75MM is deadly on soft targets, M-8s, M-16s, M-3s, LVTs and Flaks. However a full time tank buster it is not. I love the B-25, but all of this B-25 tank killer business is just nonsense. Guys claiming to be landing dozens of kills in it are just full of it. When you pull up their scores and check their kill claims the numbers just don't add up.
My advice is just go out and try to kill tanks with the B-25. Spend a whole tour doing only tank busting missions. You will find a few things out really quickly. You die more often then you land. You most likely will not bust over 50 tanks all tour and you will spend more time flying to a target, rather than killing.
-Spot
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The effectiveness of tank main guns against the B-25 is probably by far sillier than the effectiveness of the B-25s 75 against tanks. Generally I have to make 2-3 passes JUST to knock out the tracks, even though I'm skimming the ground and cleanly T-bone him. I'd like to know where everyone else is getting the magic pumpkins. :p
Also, the B-25's cockpit armor is apparently made out of balsa wood, spit and tinfoil, as I'm constantly getting single-ping P/K'ed by bb's from the pintail guns (and no, these are not shots passing through the windscreen).
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Originally posted by BBBB
Sure you can take out an engine, turret or pop a track, but to get a solid one shot, one kill on a tank is more a thing of luck and less an exercise of skill.
Killing tanks with the 75mm is a matter of luck only if your aim is bad and/or you don't know where you have to hit.
Originally posted by BBBB
Spend a whole tour doing only tank busting missions. You will find a few things out really quickly. You die more often then you land.
Not if you're a good pilot with good overall situational awareness.
As long as you do not fly down the enemies barrel (I did it a few times - OUCH!) or disregard enemy local air superiority, you will be successful. With increasing practice the number of kills/sortie will rise.
The main reason I'm not doing many anti-tank sorties in the B25 is that I'm prefering the much better (and nimble!) Hurricane IID.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Once I've taken a main gun round (which I agree is just silly).
..um...
I believe the US Army currently teaches its tank crews to engage hostile aircraft with the main gun. Obviously this works better against helicopters than against jets. I imagine the B-25 would be closer to a helicopter than a jet, though.
- oldman
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You're also talking a more advanced gun and more importantly FAR more advanced targeting systems to anything tank crews had in WWII.
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Originally posted by BBBB
That is a pretty interesting statement considering you only had 4 kills on Panzers during the tour of Aug. Killing tanks with the B-25H is a pretty hard thing to do. Sure you can take out an engine, turret or pop a track, but to get a solid one shot, one kill on a tank is more a thing of luck and less an exercise of skill.
I remember a about 3-4 years ago killing a Panzer with the 20mms on the C-Hog. My aim was dead on, but the fact the tank went boom was totally a matter of luck. So, these things can happen. However it is a fluke and nothing more.
The B-25 is a slow lumbering target. It's 75MM is deadly on soft targets, M-8s, M-16s, M-3s, LVTs and Flaks. However a full time tank buster it is not. I love the B-25, but all of this B-25 tank killer business is just nonsense. Guys claiming to be landing dozens of kills in it are just full of it. When you pull up their scores and check their kill claims the numbers just don't add up.
My advice is just go out and try to kill tanks with the B-25. Spend a whole tour doing only tank busting missions. You will find a few things out really quickly. You die more often then you land. You most likely will not bust over 50 tanks all tour and you will spend more time flying to a target, rather than killing.
-Spot
I don't know about all that. I watched flk4 land 8 or 9 a couple of nights ago. I'm willing to bet more than 1/2 were panzer kills.
Bronk
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I am not saying it is not possible to kill a tank with the 75MM gun. I am just saying it is not something that has to do with skill. As in finding an aiming point on a tank and they will pop every time. I am saying a lot of guys who are claiming 15-20 kills in a B-25 are just full of it. You said half his kills were Panzers.
My question is how many kills were from the bombs on board his B-25 and how many other tanks and friendly aircraft were in the area busting tanks at the same time? My guess is more than a few. So my statement above still stands. Guys are not able to take the B-25 H out and just fly tank busting missions. The 75MM on board the aircraft is not a tank killer. Kills made by it are flukes. Nothing more.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
I am not saying it is not possible to kill a tank with the 75MM gun. I am just saying it is not something that has to do with skill. As in finding an aiming point on a tank and they will pop every time. I am saying a lot of guys who are claiming 15-20 kills in a B-25 are just full of it. You said half his kills were Panzers.
My question is how many kills were from the bombs on board his B-25 and how many other tanks and friendly aircraft were in the area busting tanks at the same time? My guess is more than a few. So my statement above still stands. Guys are not able to take the B-25 H out and just fly tank busting missions. The 75MM on board the aircraft is not a tank killer. Kills made by it are flukes. Nothing more.
-Spot
I believe there is a bit of "skill" involved. You can outright kill tanks with the 75mm, and it does take practice to do it. Each tank has a soft spot. Take the tiger for instance. You have to go through the top of the turret or it just wont pop. How do I know this. I loaded up AH and set MA settings. I made multiple passes from various angles till I popped it. I also can repeat it, so it is defiantly not a fluke. I will say it is much harder under MA conditions, but it can and has been done.
Bronk
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Originally posted by BBBB
That is a pretty interesting statement considering you only had 4 kills on Panzers during the tour of Aug. Killing tanks with the B-25H is a pretty hard thing to do. Sure you can take out an engine, turret or pop a track, but to get a solid one shot, one kill on a tank is more a thing of luck and less an exercise of skill.
I remember a about 3-4 years ago killing a Panzer with the 20mms on the C-Hog. My aim was dead on, but the fact the tank went boom was totally a matter of luck. So, these things can happen. However it is a fluke and nothing more.
The B-25 is a slow lumbering target. It's 75MM is deadly on soft targets, M-8s, M-16s, M-3s, LVTs and Flaks. However a full time tank buster it is not. I love the B-25, but all of this B-25 tank killer business is just nonsense. Guys claiming to be landing dozens of kills in it are just full of it. When you pull up their scores and check their kill claims the numbers just don't add up.
My advice is just go out and try to kill tanks with the B-25. Spend a whole tour doing only tank busting missions. You will find a few things out really quickly. You die more often then you land. You most likely will not bust over 50 tanks all tour and you will spend more time flying to a target, rather than killing.
-Spot
i landed 16 kills in the b25 just maybe 3 days after it came out. its not that hard to get a bunch of kills in the b25
i believe and respect what evenhaim landed.
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Originally posted by opposum
its not that hard to get a bunch of kills in the b25
It is not hard to GET them...but getting out alive is another story...
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Originally posted by SpikesX
It is not hard to GET them...but getting out alive is another story...
lol yes agreed another time i had 11 and i ended up fighter food when i tried to land
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Best defense I've found the 25 has is to get low. I mean LOW. I mean scraping paint off the belly and spooking the sheep low. Opponents have no choice but saddle up or risk augering in diving on you, and chances are they'll have to stay where you can bring the top turret to bear.
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Guys are not able to take the B-25 H out and just fly tank busting missions. The 75MM on board the aircraft is not a tank killer. Kills made by it are flukes. Nothing more.
Eh, no. They are, it is, and they are not.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Eh, no. They are, it is, and they are not.
Well then, I will let that be your little secret.
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I spent last night bouncing 75's off of a T-34. Medium range (d400), short range (d200), point blank (tank was filling up the windshield. They plunked and went bouncing way off into the distance.
Apparently my ground crew loaded up the wrong ammo
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Originally posted by Tiger
I spent last night bouncing 75's off of a T-34. Medium range (d400), short range (d200), point blank (tank was filling up the windshield. They plunked and went bouncing way off into the distance.
Apparently my ground crew loaded up the wrong ammo
Hit it in the from the side on at the drivers compartment at d400 or less.
In between the 1st and 2nd boggie wheel pops em.
Bronk
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I hit from the side and the rear. These were dragging the belly of my plane onthe dirt runs. Maybe next time I need to come in from a high angle and try poppin the top?
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Originally posted by BBBB
Well then, I will let that be your little secret.
I feel silly now- you don't even play anymore. Nice troll, hooked several of us.
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Let's see. A guy can post claiming 17 tank kills in a B-25H and that's a huge problem, right? This begs the question: were the enemy not bringing any Ostwinds?
If you're in a ground attack on a base and a B-25H keeps showing up and popping your tanks, a simple solution to this is to bring some flakkers. It doesn't take many hits with the 37mm flak gun to break something important on a B-25.
I'm liking the new dimension the B-25H has brought to the game. It's another tank-busting option, especially for when the ords are down. Is it a game breaker? Hardly! Relatively few people have the skill or the patience to accomplish with a B-25 75mm cannon what can't also be accomplished by a lot more people dropping 500 or 1000 lb bombs on the same tanks from any number of different fighter-bombers, the A-20, the Lancaster, B-17, B-24, Stuka, etc.
I just don't see a problem here.
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By the way, here's a technical question. Of what nature is the HE round for this 75mm gun. Some might not know, but one of the very common sorts of anti-tank round used for decades is called (by the British at least) the HESH round, or High Explosive Squash Head (I kid you not).
This was a relatively thin-skinned round filled with a plastic explosive. On impact, the explosive would spread out (ie: splat) over the surface of the armor, and then the fuse would detonate it. The pancake of explosive on the outside of the armor would create a shock wave through the armor plate resulting in massive and catastrophic spalling of metal from the inside of the armor plate into the rest of the tank interior, f*cking it all up good.
It's entirely possible, depending on the nature of the B-25's HE round, that this same kind of effect could have been accomplished, at least on thinner armor plate. I wouldn't immediately count out this round as a tank killer just because it's an HE round, untill we find out more about it.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I feel silly now- you don't even play anymore. Nice troll, hooked several of us.
How am I trolling? You made a claim, yet had zero evidence to support that claim. There few people on here who have made consistent kill claims against hard armor in here and yet they have mostly been proven to behave been full of it. Their scores do not confirm their respective claims.
Now, if you can offer up something more than "Eh, no. They are, it is, and they are not." Then maybe it would be worth my time to debate the issue with you. However, at the present time it is not. Save the name calling for grade school.
-Spot
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Originally posted by sethipus
By the way, here's a technical question. Of what nature is the HE round for this 75mm gun. Some might not know, but one of the very common sorts of anti-tank round used for decades is called (by the British at least) the HESH round, or High Explosive Squash Head (I kid you not).
This was a relatively thin-skinned round filled with a plastic explosive. On impact, the explosive would spread out (ie: splat) over the surface of the armor, and then the fuse would detonate it. The pancake of explosive on the outside of the armor would create a shock wave through the armor plate resulting in massive and catastrophic spalling of metal from the inside of the armor plate into the rest of the tank interior, f*cking it all up good.
It's entirely possible, depending on the nature of the B-25's HE round, that this same kind of effect could have been accomplished, at least on thinner armor plate. I wouldn't immediately count out this round as a tank killer just because it's an HE round, untill we find out more about it.
HESH rounds were not in use until after WW2 was over AFAIK. At any rate, the round used in the B-25H is almost certainly standard thin walled HE shell. I can probably find the original source material at work if anyone is very interested, assuming there is still a copy in one of the libraries.
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The T13E1 used the same HE ammo as the M3 found on the M4 Sherman.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by BBBB
How am I trolling? You made a claim, yet had zero evidence to support that claim. There few people on here who have made consistent kill claims against hard armor in here and yet they have mostly been proven to behave been full of it. Their scores do not confirm their respective claims.
Now, if you can offer up something more than "Eh, no. They are, it is, and they are not." Then maybe it would be worth my time to debate the issue with you. However, at the present time it is not. Save the name calling for grade school.
-Spot
Have you played Aces High, in the arenas, since the B-25H was introduced?
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I sure have. I have found that killing tanks with the B-25H's 75MM gun is hit and miss. Sure you can knock out an engine, or knock off a track, but seven out of ten shots do nothing.
I have not been able to fly that much this month. I have flown the B-25 models pretty much exclusively. Except for a brief flight in a P-38L to take care of a Tempest that was bugging the hell out of me, it is all I have flown.
Right now I stand at 15 Kills and 15 Deaths.
I have 13 Kills in the B-25H and have died 11 times in a B-25H. The kills in the B-25H are as followed.
3 M16 kills
1 M3
1 M8
2 Osties
1 Panzer
1 Seafire
I have one kill in a B-25C and no deaths. That one kill was in an ostie that was hiding in some trees and would not come out.
I have a total of 1 hour and 14 mins in the B-25. I flew 19 sorties and killed a total of 14 times in the B-25s.
I don't have the time to play that much. I am no newbie though. Pushing mud is one of my favorite things to do in this game. I did it a lot in the P-38 series. I have done it in the A-20. I have been around. Sure I have scored the lucky hits on tanks. I have killed tanks with the rockets on the P-38 even though they are not supposed to pop tanks. These things happen. I have yet to see anyone land multiple kills on hard armor, in a B-25H, on the same sortie, using just the B-25H's main gun.
I think what is happening is that guys are popping gvers tracks and they are towering. Sure this is a kill, but I don't think it is a direct result of the 75MM gun piercing the tanks hull and killing the guy. My one Panzer kill came from me picking away at this panzer from every angle. By the time he towered out I had taken out his turret, engine and both tracks. I took out his turret first. Then his engine and after that I flew at him from every angle trying to kill him. I did everything I could think of to kill him with that gun. Nothing.
Right now in this tour the B-25H has 191 Kills of the Panzer. The Panzer has 161 kills on the B-25H. That is just over a 1 for 1 exchange rate. That K/D gets even worse when you look at the Firefly. B-25H has 35 Kills of Sherman VC and the Sherman VC has 50 Kills of B-25H. The B-25H has 25 Kills of T-34 and the T-34 has 28 Kills of B-25H. The B-25H has 15 Kills of Tiger I and the Tiger I has 63 Kills of B-25H, the B-25H has 92 Kills of Ostwind and the Ostwind has 253 Kills of B-25H.
If those are good numbers then I am really confused about what constitutes good numbers now days. The B-25H is an excellent attack plane. I love flying it. However it is not this uber tank buster it is being touted as. How is it a tank is scoreing more kills against an aircraft? If I were in a tank I would be really happy to see a B-25H. Most likely that means a kill for me.
Hard armor has something to fear in the B-25H. It can deal some damage to a tank, but as far as getting killed by that 75MM, tankers need to worry more about eggs and other tanks. That 75MM is not a tank buster.
-Spot
Edit: I am sorry now for any grammar errors and miss-spelled words. It is 4am and I just got home.
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Pffft
Offline mode MA settings(except for protect objects. I like to tests ords load outs).
http://www.savefile.com/files/1104278
4 shots dead tiger. I can do it over and over.
http://www.savefile.com/files/1104287
yup it's impossible to get multi kills on hard GVs.:rolleyes:
Bronk
Edit: While harder to do in the MA, it is possible to kill a tank as "a direct result of the 75MM gun piercing the tanks hull and killing the guy".
Spot your just plain wrong.
Ohh only tank I have yet to pop outright is the M-4. But I'm working on that.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Pffft
Offline mode MA settings(except for protect objects. I like to tests ords load outs).
http://www.savefile.com/files/1104278
4 shots dead tiger. I can do it over and over.
http://www.savefile.com/files/1104287
yup it's impossible to get multi kills on hard GVs.:rolleyes:
Done with you.
Bronk
Please find a quote of me saying it is impossible to kill a tank with the 75MM gun. Prove that I am wrong. You made five kills last tour with the B-25H. Zero kills with it this tour. You have proved nothing.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
I sure have. I have found that killing tanks with the B-25H's 75MM gun is hit and miss. Sure you can knock out an engine, or knock off a track, but seven out of ten shots do nothing.
(...)
I think what is happening is that guys are popping gvers tracks and they are towering. Sure this is a kill, but I don't think it is a direct result of the 75MM gun piercing the tanks hull and killing the guy.
(...)
I did everything I could think of to kill him with that gun. Nothing.
Right now in this tour the B-25H has 191 Kills of the Panzer. The Panzer has 161 kills on the B-25H. That is just over a 1 for 1 exchange rate. That K/D gets even worse when you look at the Firefly.
(...)
However it is not this uber tank buster it is being touted as. How is it a tank is scoreing more kills against an aircraft?
You forget that K/D reflects not only the capabilities of the plane, but also the pilots' too. This way you could also dismiss the Hurricane IID's anti-tank capabiltiy, which has a similar low K/D vs tanks - and we all know that this plane can and does nail every tank on the Ah2 battlefield. The problem is just that, unlike air-to-air combat, few guys bothered to really train their anti-tank gunning skills. So the single most cause of dreath for both planes is augering next to the tank.
The 25 is not a uber-buster with its cannon because it's not easy to fly. Slow target, easy to crash. But it's defenitely not because of it's cannon.
Originally posted by BBBB
I am not saying it is not possible to kill a tank with the 75MM gun. I am just saying it is not something that has to do with skill. As in finding an aiming point on a tank and they will pop every time
And you can't discredit the results of a anti-tank run in that plane by being dependent on luck only. It's skill. a more skilled pilot will have more "luck" because he knows how to handle his plane, he knows where the sweet spots on enemy armor are and he knows of to aim for them. Bad pilots have luck, good ones have skill.
Heck, the same argument presented by you could be applied to air combat: Because there is no guaranteed kill when you are attacking a bomber with, lets say, a P51D, that doesn't mean successful buff-busting with that plane is luck only.
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Originally posted by BBBB
Please find a quote of me saying it is impossible to kill a tank with the 75MM gun. Prove that I am wrong. You made five kills last tour with the B-25H. Zero kills with it this tour. You have proved nothing.
-Spot
Well my ac of choice for tank busting is the hurri 2d.
And what I have proved is with a bit of practice and some luck. You can get multi kills from the 75mm gun outright.
So pound sand Troll.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Lusche
You forget that K/D reflects not only the capabilities of the plane, but also the pilots' too. This way you could also dismiss the Hurricane IID's anti-tank capabiltiy, which has a similar low K/D vs tanks - and we all know that this plane can and does nail every tank on the Ah2 battlefield. The problem is just that, unlike air-to-air combat, few guys bothered to really train their anti-tank gunning skills. So the single most cause of dreath for both planes is augering next to the tank.
The 25 is not a uber-buster with its cannon because it's not easy to fly. Slow target, easy to crash. But it's defenitely not because of it's cannon.
And you can't discredit the results of a anti-tank run in that plane by being dependent on luck only. It's skill. a more skilled pilot will have more "luck" because he knows how to handle his plane, he knows where the sweet spots on enemy armor are and he knows of to aim for them. Bad pilots have luck, good ones have skill.
Heck, the same argument presented by you could be applied to air combat: Because there is no guaranteed kill when you are attacking a bomber with, lets say, a P51D, that doesn't mean successful buff-busting with that plane is luck only.
And from out of nowhere the PWN.
Lusche
Bronk
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I tried the B-25H last month, but I couldn't manage a positive K/D in it. For tankbusting I prefer the Hurri-2D, although I rarely get kills outright with that either. I did kill a Panzer IV outright by coming in flat and behind him, I hit him about on the middle of his rear hull, and he died.
I killed a couple Osties the same way, but I'd be leery of doing it against people who know what they are doing... and even those who really don't. I can shoot down a plane headed directly at me fairly easily in a tank(to say nothing of an Osty), so I imagine that everyone else out to be able to as well.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I tried the B-25H last month, but I couldn't manage a positive K/D in it. For tankbusting I prefer the Hurri-2D, although I rarely get kills outright with that either. I did kill a Panzer IV outright by coming in flat and behind him, I hit him about on the middle of his rear hull, and he died.
I killed a couple Osties the same way, but I'd be leery of doing it against people who know what they are doing... and even those who really don't. I can shoot down a plane headed directly at me fairly easily in a tank(to say nothing of an Osty), so I imagine that everyone else out to be able to as well.
The hurri is lethal on tanks. I die more a result of my impatiences than to enemy.
As to osties better bring a friend and coordinate attack runs.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Urchin
I tried the B-25H last month, but I couldn't manage a positive K/D in it. For tankbusting I prefer the Hurri-2D, although I rarely get kills outright with that either. I did kill a Panzer IV outright by coming in flat and behind him, I hit him about on the middle of his rear hull, and he died.
I killed a couple Osties the same way, but I'd be leery of doing it against people who know what they are doing... and even those who really don't. I can shoot down a plane headed directly at me fairly easily in a tank(to say nothing of an Osty), so I imagine that everyone else out to be able to as well.
When attacking tanks, do a steep angled slow dive and shoot at their top deck. Usally aim for turret or engine compartment. If you want a Tiger instant kill, aim for the top of the driver's station - but that's a very difficult shot, you'll need to be very close & very steep. Better aim for the engine first.
I usually refrain from attacking Ostwinds in a Hurri D. Il-2 is better suited to that with it's armor and bigger volume of fire.
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You gotta love being called a troll by two of the biggest trolls on the board. Define irony. Lol
Lush I agree with you. The point I was trying to make here is the B-25H is not some uber tank buster as it is being claimed. There are far better choices out there for killing tanks. I prefer my 38. Each is their own. The only point I have been trying to make is the 75MM gun on the B-25H was not put there to kill tanks. I have had to endure a lot of leg humping from people who haven't really even used it. There are a lot of kill claims going around that are not correct. I am simply trying to explain that. If that is being a troll..then I guess I am a troll.
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Originally posted by BBBB
You gotta love being called a troll by two of the biggest trolls on the board. Define irony. Lol
Lush I agree with you. The point I was trying to make here is the B-25H is not some uber tank buster as it is being claimed. There are far better choices out there for killing tanks. I prefer my 38. Each is their own. The only point I have been trying to make is the 75MM gun on the B-25H was not put there to kill tanks. I have had to endure a lot of leg humping from people who haven't really even used it. There are a lot of kill claims going around that are not correct. I am simply trying to explain that. If that is being a troll..then I guess I am a troll.
Well and I never said it was a wonder weapon. I said was "with a bit of practice and some luck. You can get multi kills from the 75mm gun outright.".
Just because you couldn't do it makes it impossible?:rolleyes:
And you're still a troll.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
And you're still a troll.
Bronk
I might lose a second or two of sleep tonight caring what you think of me. :aok
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Originally posted by BBBB
I did everything I could think of to kill him with that gun. Nothing.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Did your hair catch fire from overexerting the hamster wheel?
Bronk
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Originally posted by BBBB
Right now I stand at 15 Kills and 15 Deaths.
I have 13 Kills in the B-25H and have died 11 times in a B-25H. The kills in the B-25H are as followed.
3 M16 kills
1 M3
1 M8
2 Osties
1 Panzer
1 Seafire
I have one kill in a B-25C and no deaths. That one kill was in an ostie that was hiding in some trees and would not come out.
-Spot
Hmmmm
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/spot11.jpg)
Interesting to say the least.
Bronk
Edit: no kills anywhere else.
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Originally posted by BBBB
You gotta love being called a troll by two of the biggest trolls on the board. Define irony. Lol
Lush I agree with you. The point I was trying to make here is the B-25H is not some uber tank buster as it is being claimed. There are far better choices out there for killing tanks. I prefer my 38. Each is their own. The only point I have been trying to make is the 75MM gun on the B-25H was not put there to kill tanks. I have had to endure a lot of leg humping from people who haven't really even used it. There are a lot of kill claims going around that are not correct. I am simply trying to explain that. If that is being a troll..then I guess I am a troll.
Okay, is your point that it wasn't put in the game as an AT weapon, or that it is not effective as an AT weapon? This is what you said, and I quote
Guys are not able to take the B-25 H out and just fly tank busting missions. The 75MM on board the aircraft is not a tank killer. Kills made by it are flukes. Nothing more.
That has nothing to do with why the plane was added. It is completely unrelated. Your statement above is what I'm disagreeing with. As for why the plane was added- it was voted in by players. There are probably a thousand reasons, and you might technically be correct. However, there is no way you'll be able to prove that, so we will dismiss your opinion, as you have ours (for lack of proof, of course.)
However, IRT your original claim, I have flown the plane, more than once, and you are more than welcome to check my stats. You will find the gameID I actually fly under in my signature. I will be the first to state that some of those are ord kills, and some are strafing open top vehicles and M3s, but the majority are 75mm kills. I could probably produce some films, but I don't think you're really interested in facts, having already made up your mind.
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Originally posted by BBBB
You gotta love being called a troll by two of the biggest trolls on the board. Define irony. Lol
Pointing out that someone is talking out of the wrong end of his alimentary canal is not a troll, but a public service.
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Originally posted by E25280
Pointing out that someone is talking out of the wrong end of his alimentary canal is not a troll, but a public service.
Because my view on an issue that has not been proven ether way differs from you, that makes me a troll. You guys must get all the chicks with your wit and wisdom. When you grow up, I want to be just like you.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
Because my view on an issue that has not been proven ether way differs from you, that makes me a troll. You guys must get all the chicks with your wit and wisdom. When you grow up, I want to be just like you.
-Spot
What point?
The one where the 75 mm can't outright kill tanks or the inability to make multi kills?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I know, the one where you have no idea what you're talking about. Good point, numpty.
Bronk
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Guys, you're arguing with no point. Define the question first.
I thought that the argument was over whether the B-25H is somehow overpowered as a tank killer. If that's not the argument, then what is? What's really the problem here?
If the question is whether the B-25H is somehow overpowered as a tank killer, I think the stats Spot posted are pretty clear about it - Hell No.
If the question is something else, what is it exactly we're arguing over?
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Originally posted by sethipus
Guys, you're arguing with no point. Define the question first.
I thought that the argument was over whether the B-25H is somehow overpowered as a tank killer. If that's not the argument, then what is? What's really the problem here?
If the question is whether the B-25H is somehow overpowered as a tank killer, I think the stats Spot posted are pretty clear about it - Hell No.
If the question is something else, what is it exactly we're arguing over?
Well now lets have a look see.
First post.
Originally posted by Yarbles
Not sure I understand why but the B25 apparently kills tanks with an HE round? :confused:
Wants to know if a B-25 could kill tanks.
Originally posted by Widewing
Well, the context of the B-25H's usage in the game is often not historic. Then again, Spitfires fighting P-51s and Corsairs isn't historic either. The basis for historical accuracy are the aircraft and vehicles, not the battles they fight. In the game, people will employ assets as they need them.
Had the B-25H had been deployed to the 9th AF, they would have been attacking armor with them. The T13E1/M6 75mm HE round had enough kinetic energy to punch thru thin armor, up to 50mm under certain circumstances at 100 yards as established at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1943. At 500 yards it could still penetrate 25mm at 90 degrees. That's just penetration, and does not include the secondary effect of the explosive charge (test rounds at Aberdeen were inert).
Thus, it should not be considered unusual for a B-25H to knock out armor with a well placed or just lucky hit.
My regards,
Widewing
Then
Originally spewed by BBBB
Sure you can take out an engine, turret or pop a track, but to get a solid one shot, one kill on a tank is more a thing of luck and less an exercise of skill.
and
Originally posted by BBBB
I am not saying it is not possible to kill a tank with the 75MM gun. I am just saying it is not something that has to do with skill. As in finding an aiming point on a tank and they will pop every time.
These statements are false. If you aim for certain spots you kill tanks outright. no luck just practice. See films.
Then this load of bs.
Originally leaked by BBBB
Right now I stand at 15 Kills and 15 Deaths.
I have 13 Kills in the B-25H and have died 11 times in a B-25H. The kills in the B-25H are as followed.
3 M16 kills
1 M3
1 M8
2 Osties
1 Panzer
1 Seafire
I have one kill in a B-25C and no deaths. That one kill was in an ostie that was hiding in some trees and would not come out.
I have a total of 1 hour and 14 mins in the B-25. I flew 19 sorties and killed a total of 14 times in the B-25s.
Total BS he is doing what he claims others are. See my post of sp0t's score, 1 kill 2 deaths.
I think what is happening is that guys are popping gvers tracks and they are towering. Sure this is a kill, but I don't think it is a direct result of the 75MM gun piercing the tanks hull and killing the guy. My one Panzer kill came from me picking away at this panzer from every angle. By the time he towered out I had taken out his turret, engine and both tracks. I took out his turret first. Then his engine and after that I flew at him from every angle trying to kill him. I did everything I could think of to kill him with that gun. Nothing.
Already covered, because he doesn't know how it's impossible. C'mon now if I can pop a tiger don't ya think a panzer is doable?
Get it now ,troll boie's fragile ego cant take being wrong. so he argues from different angles on the same question.
Bronk
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Sethipus, I see that you are somewhat new here so I will give you a heads up. There are some people on this board who live here. This is there life. If your views do not parallel theirs then you are wrong, you are a troll, you are stupid.
The best thing you can do when you run across one of these types is click on their profile and hit ignore user. It will save you a whole lot of hassle. Some people in here get their jolly's off by being ******s. There is no cure for them.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
WAAAAAAAAAA I'm not wrong, and I'll ignore any who say I am. WAAAAAAAAAA
-Spot
:lol
Bronk
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I have only killed 1 tank with the 25H, and that was at about 800 yards in the back of the turret (panzer). I have killed ostis by pulling the round down through the top of the turret. I still have yet to disable a tiger at all with the H model. But I'm also a terrible shot with it...normally my gv kills are by putting a 500lber on their head. However it is fun to track a guy after his spawn base is captured and just let him sit there.
:furious
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I have never been able to get a round to connect on a Tiger. That is why I suspect Bronks flims. They are off line and I am pretty sure he lowered the Tigers hardness to make them easier to kill. The total number of Tigers killed by the B-25H since the B-25H came out is: 132 Kills. Compare that with the number of B-25Hs being killed by tigers: 465.
Once again we are at the same cross road. The B-25H is a good attack plane. If it were the tank buster guys are claiming it is, it would, A; have more kills vs tanks and B; be flown more than it is.
You can chalk the numbers up to inexperience with the aircraft to a certain point, but the fact is the B-25H does not have a positive number no matter where or who flies it. Since the B-25H came out it has scored 11,636 kills in the LW arenas. It has been shot down 19,464 times. It is almost impossible to maintain a positive K/D in the aircraft.
There are a few guys who are so willing to defy this they have gave up producing evidence and have dropped down to childish name calling and banter. I want to be proven wrong. I love the B-25H. However I do not think I am wrong. The B-25H is a great plane. It is a tough plane, but when it comes to killing tanks there are far better choices out there.
I would love to see films of guys landing the claimed 17-15-10 kill tank sorties in the LW. I would love to see scores that back up these kill claims. The problem is I have yet to see it. The only flims I have saw on the subject have all been offline films and it was one shot kills on Tigers that made me suspect the maker of the film is not being honest with his claims.
Once again I want to point out. I never said you couldn't kill a tank with the B-25H. You can. However you can not do it with such regularity that when it comes time to kill tanks you use the B-25H or that the aircraft it's self can maintain a solid positive K/D over any tanks. The best score it has is against the Panzer and that is almost at a 1 for 1 exchange with the Tank. That is a really sad number.
So if anyone can come here with some facts and some evidence, something more than name calling, banter, stupidity. I really would like to see it.
-Spot
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Originally posted by Bronk
Hmmmm
Interesting to say the least.
Bronk
Edit: no kills anywhere else.
Try the name Studder. You will see my claims are correct. Your mistake for assuming I was flying under Sp0t when I made those claims. I was in fact trying to get HTC to change my name of Studder over to Sp0t since I had just re-opened my account. Try harder there bud. Back on ignore with you.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
I have never been able to get a round to connect on a Tiger. That is why I suspect Bronks flims. They are off line and I am pretty sure he lowered the Tigers hardness to make them easier to kill. The total number of Tigers killed by the B-25H since the B-25H came out is: 132 Kills. Compare that with the number of B-25Hs being killed by tigers: 465.
No I didn't. I have no need to lie about it. Get over the fact you are wrong.
Tell ya what nupmty lets go to the da you set your butt in the tiger and I'll pop it with the 25. Or couldn't that glass ego take it.
Ohh maybe you could put handle it in your sig or do you enjoy being a shade tard?
Bronk
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Originally posted by BBBB
I have never been able to get a round to connect on a Tiger. That is why I suspect Bronks flims. They are off line and I am pretty sure he lowered the Tigers hardness to make them easier to kill. The total number of Tigers killed by the B-25H since the B-25H came out is: 132 Kills. Compare that with the number of B-25Hs being killed by tigers: 465.
First, I have duplicated this "feat". It was difficult, and I needed several tries and augered more than once. But it finally it worked, with standard settings.
Second, looking at K/D B-25H vs Tiger doesn't tell anything about the effectiveness of the cannon. Nothing. It's just an indication that it might not be easy.
I might just present an earlier example again:
The Hurri IID has a similar abysmal K/D vs Tigers, yet it is fully capable of killing them - it's just not that easy.
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Originally posted by Bronk
No I didn't. I have no need to lie about it. Get over the fact you are wrong.
Tell ya what nupmty lets go to the da you set your butt in the tiger and I'll pop it with the 25. Or couldn't that glass ego take it.
Ohh maybe you could put handle it in your sig or do you enjoy being a shade tard?
Bronk
You are a dolt. If I have a shade then please by all means e-mail HTC. I was in the process of re-opening my account. I could not sign up with my old name. So I was waiting until HTC was open to change my name. I did that already. You will see that Studder, a name I just came up with on the fly has not flown since I have gotten my old name back.
As for your DA stuff. I would be willing to do that. I am available tomorrow afternoon into tomorrow evening. You can e-mail at glock30gunner@gmail.com and we can hammer out a time.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
I have never been able to get a round to connect on a Tiger. That is why I suspect Bronks flims.
There are a few guys who are so willing to defy this they have gave up producing evidence and have dropped down to childish name calling and banter.
The only flims I have saw on the subject have all been offline films and it was one shot kills on Tigers that made me suspect the maker of the film is not being honest with his claims.
So if anyone can come here with some facts and some evidence, something more than name calling, banter, stupidity. I really would like to see it.
-Spot
You get the Pot meet Kettle Award for the day for calling someone a liar with no evidence that he is lying while simultaneously complaining he is calling you names. Congratulations.
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Show me where I called him a liar. And yet I called him a dolt because rather than reading my post he told me I had a shade.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
Show me where I called him a liar. And yet I called him a dolt because rather than reading my post he told me I had a shade.
-Spot
Originally posted by BBBB
That is why I suspect Bronks flims. They are off line and I am pretty sure he lowered the Tigers hardness to make them easier to kill.
The only flims I have saw on the subject have all been offline films and it was one shot kills on Tigers that made me suspect the maker of the film is not being honest with his claims.
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Right. I said I felt he was not being honest. That does not mean he out and out lied. At any rate this is getting off topic. He said we could go to the DA and he would show me. So problem solved. Next please.
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Originally posted by BBBB
I have never been able to get a round to connect on a Tiger. That is why I suspect Bronks flims. They are off line and I am pretty sure he lowered the Tigers hardness to make them easier to kill. The total number of Tigers killed by the B-25H since the B-25H came out is: 132 Kills. Compare that with the number of B-25Hs being killed by tigers: 465.
-Spot
I've been able to kill Tigers, Panzers, T-34s and Fireflys in the B-25H. It's not easy to get an out right 1st shot kill (got lucky only once with a 1 shot kill on a Firefly but I suspected it might have already been damaged before hand). All of them, exept the the lone exception, took multiple passes.
I always strike broadside first, hoping to take out a track. If I see the tank has lost a track then I change my attack course and come at if from the rear, hitting the engine compartment. Usually 1 or 2 rounds fired from close range (600 to 400 yards) is enough to get it to start smoking. Then I just keep at it until it blows. More often than not, it takes almost a full ammo load of 75mm to take out a tank. It can be done but it's not easy and best results usually come from hitting in a weak area like the engine and firing at a close range.
Soft skinned GVs like M-16s, LVTs, Osties and jeeps are a lot easier and increased chance of taking them out with one shot.
However, as with all thing with life, YMMV.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by BBBB
Right. I said I felt he was not being honest. That does not mean he out and out lied.
:rofl
You have now also won the Bill Clinton "It Depends on What Your Definition of "Is" Is Award." Congratulations.
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No Tiger (yet), but a short B-25 attack run with two one-shot Panzer kills. Just recorded in MW arena.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ad1lnnjgodd
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Originally posted by BBBB
Right. I said I felt he was not being honest. That does not mean he out and out lied. At any rate this is getting off topic. He said we could go to the DA and he would show me. So problem solved. Next please.
PM sent.
Bronk
Edit: never mind got a willing Ltarget.:D
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I've been able to kill Tigers, Panzers, T-34s and Fireflys in the B-25H. It's not easy to get an out right 1st shot kill (got lucky only once with a 1 shot kill on a Firefly but I suspected it might have already been damaged before hand). All of them, exept the the lone exception, took multiple passes.
I always strike broadside first, hoping to take out a track. If I see the tank has lost a track then I change my attack course and come at if from the rear, hitting the engine compartment. Usually 1 or 2 rounds fired from close range (600 to 400 yards) is enough to get it to start smoking. Then I just keep at it until it blows. More often than not, it takes almost a full ammo load of 75mm to take out a tank. It can be done but it's not easy and best results usually come from hitting in a weak area like the engine and firing at a close range.
Soft skinned GVs like M-16s, LVTs, Osties and jeeps are a lot easier and increased chance of taking them out with one shot.
However, as with all thing with life, YMMV.
ack-ack
How many times have the tanks shot you down when you are coming in after them?
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MW with Ltarget as .. well the target.
http://www.savefile.com/download/1110242?PHPSESSID=f7f13d7b8e3c23461c5fc3e4daf0bc60
wow 2 trigger pulls 2 dead tigers. Who'd a thought.:rolleyes:
Thanks Ltarget for participating.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Edit: never mind got a willing Ltarget.:D
Indeed.
Bronk pwns LTARget. (http://www.mediafire.com/?44gz6y3kcb3)
Bronk.
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Originally posted by Bronk
MW with Ltarget as .. well the target.
http://www.savefile.com/download/1110242?PHPSESSID=f7f13d7b8e3c23461c5fc3e4daf0bc60
Bronk
"I'm just glad this is impossible!"
:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by Urchin
How many times have the tanks shot you down when you are coming in after them?
Once...guy scored a pilot wound, blacked out and hit a tree. At least for me, I have found it to be a good idea to fire the machine guns as I make my run. The dust that it kicks up obscures the tanker's shot.
ack-ack
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Wow, no public comments on film. Why am I not surprised.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Tilt
Under certain circumstances an AH jeep can appear to kill a tank with a mg round.
But to take a direct correlation a Panzer Mk IV can appear to kill a tank with a 76mm HE round.
Given that HTC has a very good general deliniation between HE and AP rounds of the same calibre and muzzle velocity it is more probable that B25 pilits experience the sometimes wierd effects of the damage attribution model and earn kills when infact their weapon could never have polished off the victim on its own.
When a victim is "killed" the program looks up a damage file to see who did the most damage and awards the kill appropriately.............. or sometimes seemingly inappropriately
Agressors are who have died or landed are deleted from the list whilst they may have indeed contributed the most damage.
Agressors who have brought about the final "killing" blow may not be awarded the kill because another has already affected more damage "points". (if the killing blow had massive destructive power only that part required to inflict final component failure will be counted {as a straw so to speak})
Agressors who have brought about loss of victims flight due to a few precision shots at a critical component may not be awarded the kill because others have scored more damage points across other (wider) areas.
and when you start to combine the above wierd (but fortunately not to common) stuff can happen.
e.g Assuming a wing comes off at 10 units of damage
Player1 inflicts 7 units of wing damage via 20mm cannon fire then dies or lands.
Player2 inflicts 2 units of wing damage via .303 fire and runs out of ammo.
Player3 inflicts 5 units of wing damage via 30mm cannon fire and the wing falls off.
Player2 gets the kill. Only 1 of Player 3's damage points count
Unless of course Player3 then follows the victim down and puts another 3 units into another component before the victim actually dies or bails.
Having said all that if your sure that you came along and were the only player to fire HE at a tank and kill it then HTC (and ergo the rest of the playing comunity) would be greatly assisted by any film you can send them so they can find out what happened in greater detail than we have access to.
Good explanation. It works fine with AC but with GVs its kind of funny. I can pump a tiger full of 20mm from a 110 and do no damage what so ever to it. If another gv kills it latter, I get the kill because of the amount of ammo I put in it. However, I di dnot even scratch the paint. So, I dont think it is damage points that count but weight? of ammo put on the target?
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This thread reminds me of this.
Originally posted by FBplmmr
player A :- this game needs an apple.
bronk : look an apple!
player A: that is not an apple!
bronk : why yes it is an apple
player A: I see no apple there!
player B : well actually it is indeed an apple
player A : i see no apple
bronk : take a picture and you will see an apple
player A: there will be no apple there ..and further more I refuse to take any pictures
the creator of the world: it is an apple ..and here is why....
player A : there is no apple but other people use the apple unfairly against me ..if it did exist
Bronk
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Originally posted by dedalos
Good explanation. It works fine with AC but with GVs its kind of funny. I can pump a tiger full of 20mm from a 110 and do no damage what so ever to it. If another gv kills it latter, I get the kill because of the amount of ammo I put in it. However, I di dnot even scratch the paint. So, I dont think it is damage points that count but weight? of ammo put on the target?
The explanation is as follows:
Originally posted by Pyro
Ahh, I know why this happens. It's the tracks. They are a damageable component and can soak up a large quantity of damage from light cannon and MG which unbalances the kill awarding. I'll have to see if there's a way that HT can alter the awarding of GV kills to take that into account.
from this thread a few months ago (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198373)
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You offered up a challenge Bronk. I accepted that challenge. I want to see for myself. You said 7:30PM. I will be in the DA at 7:30PM EST tonight. I hope to see you there so you can make good on your challenge. BTW. It should be noted that your two "kills" against target do not show up in your score. The film shows a hit on him and what looks like a hit on the engine. Since you do not have them scored in you score the only thing that leads me to think is he towered after your hit. Like I said, I would like to see you in the DA so we can clear this whole mess up.
-Spot
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And no comment on that film? I mean, there you have finally the proof you always asked for:
Originally posted by BBBB
I have never been able to get a round to connect on a Tiger. That is why I suspect Bronks flims.
There are a few guys who are so willing to defy this they have gave up producing evidence and have dropped down to childish name calling and banter.
The only flims I have saw on the subject have all been offline films and it was one shot kills on Tigers that made me suspect the maker of the film is not being honest with his claims.
So if anyone can come here with some facts and some evidence, something more than name calling, banter, stupidity. I really would like to see it.
-Spot
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For public to enjoy, a pm from guess who.
Whats the matter...don't want to really prove it. All the film shows is that he blew up. For all we know he towered out. You challenged me. I took your challenge and you backed out and went with someone who is already a believer in your BS. Take the Pepsi challenge. You challenged me to the DA. I accept. Be there. 7:30PM EST tonight.
So not only am I a liar. I have persuaded Ltarget to be my accomplice.
I am done with you. I have told you how to kill them once. Then showed you how to do it twice. Off line wasn't enough so I did it in the MA. I have nothing more to prove. You want more proof do it yourself offline.
I find it gratifying that a player who has (by regestration date) been around longer than I have, cant do what I do.
Your a troll and a sad excuse for a cartoon pilot. I'll now leave it up to the community to take from this what they will.
Bronk
Edit: Just so you know watch ltargets film but in from my plane's view. His tank blows up almost instantly when the round hits it. Ltarget must have lightning reflexes for him to time that tower out.:rolleyes:
Sad
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Whats the matter Bronk. You made the challenge. I accepted and before we had a chance you found a "willing" target. Thing is once again, the score does not back up the claim. Tell us how is it you scored two "kills" on target and they don't show up? Could it be the same way when you dive in on a tank and they tower out. Sure it says you got the kill, you hit them, but it is not scored.
All I am saying is this. If it is that easy to kill a tiger, one shot, with his turret turned so that you can see the soft point under the turret and the Tiger has to be standing still and not be shooting back at you...then why aren't guys scoring kills left and right with the B-25H? Why is it's K/D so bad?
Your film is bogus. So your score does not show the kills. If you claim to have killed him twice then yes I am calling you a liar. That film shows a hit on his engine. Nothing more. You smoked his engine, he towered out, it reads "Bronk shot you down.".
All I am saying is come to the DA and put your money where your mouth is. I really am starting to think you are worried you will be busted out on this. So go ahead. Don't show up. Call me a troll. Sit in the corner and pout. Typical for you. You challenge someone then wiggle your way out when it comes time to cowboy up. Classic. I really hope to see you at 7:30PM EST. The time you requested via PM.
-Spot
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Try looking in mid war scores you dolt.
Bronk
Edit: better yet no da, go to MW and up that tiger. Lets put some teeth to this. This is not about if I can pop a moving tiger or one thats firing back. It's about if you can outright kill them with the 25's 75mm. So if you think I cant do it show up mid war at 7:30. I'll be there, park that tiger out in the open if ya got the nads , troll.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Try looking in mid war scores you dolt.
Bronk
Mid War Tour 93 Statistics for Bronk
Fighter Bomber Attack Veh./Boat Total
Kills 0 0 0 0 0
I did you dolt. You have no kills listed. I got an idea. I am online right now. How about I meet you in the MW. I am logging in now.
-Spot
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Had it marked as bomber notice the points? Kills are not recorded when marked as a bomber. Or cant you read.
Now look at expanded format, tard. They are listed. keep grasping at straws.
Bronk
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Originally posted by BBBB
Your film is bogus. So your score does not show the kills. If you claim to have killed him twice then yes I am calling you a liar.
-Spot
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3909/u2gp1.jpg)
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6979/u1zn5.jpg)
Or check yourself.
That's the problem when dissenting opinions become personal battles. Being disproven then suddenly means "defeat", which will often not be accepted. Result: people appear very silly...
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I am in the DA. I have to go out to dinner. I am leaving my tank sitting there. I am outside V37 sitting outside the town a ways. It is a short 25 mile flight from A19. I hope to see you there.
-Spot
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Originally posted by BBBB
Whats the matter Bronk. You made the challenge. I accepted and before we had a chance you found a "willing" target. Thing is once again, the score does not back up the claim. Tell us how is it you scored two "kills" on target and they don't show up? Could it be the same way when you dive in on a tank and they tower out. Sure it says you got the kill, you hit them, but it is not scored.
All I am saying is this. If it is that easy to kill a tiger, one shot, with his turret turned so that you can see the soft point under the turret and the Tiger has to be standing still and not be shooting back at you...then why aren't guys scoring kills left and right with the B-25H? Why is it's K/D so bad?
Your film is bogus. So your score does not show the kills. If you claim to have killed him twice then yes I am calling you a liar. That film shows a hit on his engine. Nothing more. You smoked his engine, he towered out, it reads "Bronk shot you down.".
All I am saying is come to the DA and put your money where your mouth is. I really am starting to think you are worried you will be busted out on this. So go ahead. Don't show up. Call me a troll. Sit in the corner and pout. Typical for you. You challenge someone then wiggle your way out when it comes time to cowboy up. Classic. I really hope to see you at 7:30PM EST. The time you requested via PM.
-Spot
Now we know you are a troll because you can NOT POSSIBLY be this absolutely stupid.
I posted my film as well. Take a look. If I towered out, you would see "you have been captured" or "you have ditched" in the text buffer.
It says, "You have been killed."
Furthermore, scores are updated once per day, but kill stats are updated instantaneously. If you look at Bronk's kill stats, it clearly shows 2 kills with a B-25H, and 2 kills of a Tiger.
Just to be absolutely sure you could not possibly mess this part up too, please make sure you check under Mid War Main Arena, not Early, not Late, but MID.
I offerred to be a target for Bronk because I suspected you were not man enough to run the risk of being wrong. Bronk got the PM and PMed back, and I happened to be on line. Rather than wait, we put it to bed immediately.
I suspect, based on your reaction, that you are still not man enough to admit you are wrong and apologize for your idiotic accusations, so I won't bother to ask that you do so.
Originally posted by Bronk
numpty
Bronk and Lusche>
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Kill stats don't prove anything as they also count proxies, towers and the like. They count the kill even if it isnt an honest kill at all. There is a mossy kill in my kill stat from this morning. I didn't get a shot on him. He was blown up by AA, it gave me the proxy. It is now listed as a kill. Now go look at my score and you will see that proxy is not listed. I was flying a Hurri II.
-Spot
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MW you need to lose some perks. Ohh and no buffs enabled any where near there in the da.
Bronk
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Originally posted by BBBB
Kill stats don't prove anything as they also count proxies, towers and the like. They count the kill even if it isnt an honest kill at all. There is a mossy kill in my kill stat from this morning. I didn't get a shot on him. He was blown up by AA, it gave me the proxy. It is now listed as a kill. Now go look at my score and you will see that proxy is not listed. I was flying a Hurri II.
-Spot
Ahh.. so both LTARGET as well as Bronk have somehow manipulated both of their films??? :rofl
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Originally posted by BBBB
Kill stats don't prove anything as they also count proxies, towers and the like. They count the kill even if it isnt an honest kill at all. There is a mossy kill in my kill stat from this morning. I didn't get a shot on him. He was blown up by AA, it gave me the proxy. It is now listed as a kill. Now go look at my score and you will see that proxy is not listed. I was flying a Hurri II.
-Spot
ltargets text buffer don't lie.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/foridiot.jpg)
Your wrong get over it.
Bronk
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BBBB,
LTarget GAVE you proof he didn't just tower out. If he had only taken crippling damage and towered to give Bronk the kill, IT WOULD NOT HAVE SAID ON HIS FILM "You have been killed." I'm VERY rarely in GVs, but even *I* know that if he had towered it would not have said that.
Bronk proved his point: It's possible to single-ping ANY tank AT WILL with the 25's pumpkins, so long as you fire from the right approach angle, at the right part of the tank, from the right range. It's not EASY to do. It takes patience, positioning and timing to get the proper attack run, but it CAN BE DONE.
Period. Finito. End of story. The fat lady has SUNG. What the frell MORE do you want them to do? Send the film to HTC for in-depth analysis?
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Tempted to link this thread in general discussion. Ohh the fun to be had.
Bronk
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Think we are all on the same page now.;)
While not the easiest thing to do. With practice and a bit of a warm up.
One shot killing of tanks can be done and is also quite fun.:t
Sp0t enjoy your tank busting now. If you figure out the spot where to hit the M-4 for a 1 shot. You best share.:p
Bronk
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Yes, I saw it for myself and I am happy. I have to man up here and say I am sorry to Bronk for calling him a liar. I never did say it was impossible to kill a Tiger or a tank with the 75MM. I just said it was tough to do. Even Bronks system, while it works is not easy for the novice pilot to pull off. Diving in from 70-80 degrees, nearly straight down, while not over speeding and pulling out before hitting the ground is still tough. However it is possible.
In the end I think we learned the B-25H is not an easy bird to fly like this. It can be done, but I still think there are better choices out there to kill tanks with. Though, I will be trying the dive 'o death on a tiger the next time I see one. That maneuver has be be even harder trying to hit a moving tank. It was good fun last night. I only wish my connection would have held out longer. to Bronk and Lushe who were out there seeing this thing trough.
-Sp0t
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Panzer 4's barely have 10mm of armor in the rear and top areas of the tank.
a 75mm HE will easily punch through that.
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Tracking a tank will help a lot in reducing the dive angle for a turret-vertical shot.
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Originally posted by Krusty
That's just wrong. :huh
so's the guy in the lala who only ho's?:D