Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Cypher on August 31, 2007, 11:54:19 PM
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What are the advantages/disadvantages to useing tracers? using no tracers?
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Well, my aim is generally poor, and if I miss on my first burst, it's nice not to alert the enemy to my presence with a few hundred tracer rounds flying past his windshield.
On the other hand, my aim is generally poor, and if I miss connecting with an enemy on my buddy's six, it sucks not being able to alert the enemy to my presence with a few hundred tracer rounds flying past his windshield.
So, really, I'm darned if I do and darned if I don't, but I leave them off, because with aim as bad as mine, regardless of where the few hundred tracer rounds go flying, they clutter up the screen so much that I find they just make aiming even more difficult for me.
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A lot of it will come down to personal preference. Myself, I prefer to fly with them off. I think turning the tracers off can actually help your aim. I realized that I was aiming with the tracers, not the gunsight. Turning them off forces my brain to learn to calculate the shots I would need to hit. That being said I'm stil not a particularly good shot, but I get by.
If you decide to give it a whirl you have to commit to it for a bit. Your aim will get worse till you make the adjustment but then you should see it start to come back to at least where you were prior to switching. Try it out for a few weeks and if you don't like you can always turn them back on.
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I flew for years with them off. I now fly with them on because I like to let the bad guy know I'm shooting at him :).
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I agree with Soulyss completely... in the short term, you'll do much worse but the long term gain will definitely out weight that.
Only one bad thing to having tracers off, if you're trying to clear someone who is some distance away it can be difficult to scare the bandit behind him unless you start scoring some hits.
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I use tracers. I like seeing my bullets fly across the sky into the enemy plane's tail. Using tracers help you aim better than without tracers, and if there's an enemy on a friendly six spreying a few tracers past him will make him break off. However, that is also the downside to using tracers. If you'r trying to sneak up on an enemy six and miss your first burst he will know you'r behind him and your plan is ruined. Tracers also tell your enemy when you are shooting and where. So, when you shoot and tracers go by the enemy and ahead of him he knows you are in lead pursuit and can't sim, and he will now turn the other way and reverse you.
Using No Tracers has the exact opposite effect of using tracers. It's a little harder to aim, you can't tell the enemy on your friends six "Hey I'm gonna kill you, you better break off", you sneak up on an enemy six and miss he won't know your there, and the enemy can't tell when or where you are shooting.
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Originally posted by Delirium
I agree with Soulyss completely... in the short term, you'll do much worse but the long term gain will definitely out weight that.
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Strangley it's exact the opposite for me.
If I turn tracers off, I'm fine for one to two days. After that, my aim starts to degrade, slowly at first, but after four or five days I can't hit anything anymore so I have to turn it back on.
So it's all a matter of personal preference I guess.
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Tracers off here since the very first day we had the option.
As for scaring off bad guys on someone else's 6. I prefer to set them up for the kill rather than scare them away. Good wingman tatics, good drag skills, slip in till they are 200 in front and blow them to pieces.
If you do a lot of long range shooting with MG's tracers may help long term.
If your shooting up close with cannons, I think they just confuse the issue.
My opinion, and not worth a dime either. :)
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Originally posted by Cypher
What are the advantages/disadvantages to useing tracers? using no tracers?
Advantages no tracers: It forces you to look for site pictures that will hit the target rather than 'walk' your tracers to the target. This makes your gunnery better. Your target does not get a visual warning of tracers wizzing by that they are being shot at. Targets cannot 'dodge' long range shots since they can't see them inbound.
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I prefer NOT using them for 3 reasons..
1: when you burn up on someone from low 6.. and blow the first shot.. they dont know it (unless they hear you)
2: you can see better where you are hitting on the target (important on bombers)
3: when you strafe a GV/flak its harder for him to tell where the rounds are coming from. which is great against the SAM miss.. errr Ostwind.. where they can ping you with 1 lethal shot from an extended range..
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Tracers on...Tracers off...no difference....the sight picture is the same.
If you fly to the opponents' six and set him up for a kill...and get in close...
it matters not if tracers are on...or off...
What matters is sight picture, sight alignment (lead), and trigger control.
Whether you learn these three elements of shooting with tracers on, or off,
does not matter.
How you fly does matter...and how you set up your sight picture, how you align your sight, and how well you control your trigger... is the key...getting a kill only states who outflew whom, and it matters not if your tracers were on, or off.
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Originally posted by Patches1
getting a kill only states who outflew whom, and it matters not if your tracers were on, or off.
very well said.
i change every now and then. In a p47 generaly i like tracers on, in a spitfire mostly i dont. right now they have been off for a few months.
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I've debated about the pros and cons about Tracers/No Tracers, and their are alot of good points in both.But if the planes and ballistics are Historically correct or real close (as I think they are)...What about tracers??? Did WWII pilots have the option to not load Tracers in their Ammo Loadout?? I am not a expert, but I really don't think so. :confused: Did they really relied on their sights?Or did the Tracers perform as their AIM????Please correct me if I'm wrong...need a WWII Fighter Pilot/Mechanic Veteran as the best proof.(I would think).......................
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from what Ive seen on the history channel from guncam footage and whatnot... almost all of them had tracers, but nowhere NEAR the amount of them that AH does..
in most WW2 footage it looks like maybe a a few tracers every second.. in AH its a massive barrage of them.. like every other round (I know its not but it seems like it)
I wish you could turn on/off tracers PER GUN, or per pair.. I might start using them again, but I would only use them on 1 gun (point convergence anyway).. so they wouldn't obscure what im shooting at like they do now (part of why I no longer use them)
heres some gun cam footage from various P47s.. some of the time it looks like they are using very few tracers, other times more, and other times none at all..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=75277905547951258
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In reality, tracers have a different weight than regular AP/API rounds and didn't follow the same arc of fire. Which means you were aiming with only the tracers rounds, while the heavier hitting rounds were missing completely because of the different ballistics.
I know of one Fighter Group that removed all the tracer rounds from their airplanes, as they said the results were 'dramatic' and their kill numbers improved.
Unfortunately, in AH tracers have the same flight path as the rest of the rounds which makes many of the historical arguments/comparisons meaningless.
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^ never knew that. congrats on gettin married smellirium :D
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I fly with Tracers on, ususally if i miss with the first birst i can see how i need to correct, unlike without having them u play the guessing game.
I also use tracers as a tactice, if the plane is faster than me i will throw some lead out there and hopefully force him to turn just like i want him to, remember control the fight. i use my tracers to control the fight. making them turn when i want to.
I have actually found that whatever side u send your tracers most people turn the opposite way to avoid;) really easy to kill them when i know which way they are going to break
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I'm trying them off. I find it hard to differentiate my hit sprites (few as they are) from the tracer rounds.
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The point of my post was not to differentiate between tracers being on, or tracers being off, but rather to focus upon the sight picture you see before firing. At this point, tracers on, or off, are not even a factor!
First off, it doesn't matter if you have tracers on, or off, if you don't first know how to fly somewhat well.
Secondly, convergence is an issue with your sight picture (what aircraft do you fly).
Thirdly, you need to know about sight alignment...and the ballistics of the rounds you are firing.
Fourth...trigger control: don't jerk the trigger...squuuueeeezzze it. Yes, even in this game...if you jerk the trigger...you'll be off a bit.
Take the time to learn your sight picture in the Training Arena.
Just some thoughts....
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the tracers is an unrealistic thing to have in AH since in real life tracers were on, no way to turn them "off" yet it is helpful to turn them off not to alert the enemy
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Actually, I recall reading that some units DID ask for them to be removed from their belts, so in effect they were turned off. I'm also remembering that the unit had an increase in kills. (Take that with some salt -- there are days I dont remember where I left my keys!)
Now, about in game tracers -- I flew for several years with them off, because I couldnt keep my eyes from following the bright streaks instead of watching the relationship between the pipper and the target.
Unfortunately, I hit a hard "tracers off" plateau and about stopped improving my gunnery at all. I could hit the shots I "knew", but couldnt learn what I was doing wrong on the rest of them...so I have them back on. This time, though, I'm mentally disciplined enough that my focus remains on actual targeting data (pipper position, degree of lead, target aspect/angle of flight, target size/distance, target speed -- and yeah, you HAVE to take al lthat into consideration to know where to fire). The tracers let me see immediately what I did wrong with a shot I missed, so I have been "learning" new shots. I agree with Murdr, though, that I'd prefer them off once I've improved my gunnery enough to consolidate the new shots into the "automatic" zone.
So for me, the answer to the tracer question is Yes, No, and Sometimes. Don't let yourself use tracers as a substitute for aiming -- but otherwise, use whatever setting helps your game at the moment.
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that would have been interesting if in fact tracers would have been removed
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Originally posted by Simaril
Unfortunately, I hit a hard "tracers off" plateau and about stopped improving my gunnery at all. I could hit the shots I "knew", but couldnt learn what I was doing wrong on the rest of them...so I have them back on. This time, though, I'm mentally disciplined enough that my focus remains on actual targeting data (pipper position, degree of lead, target aspect/angle of flight, target size/distance, target speed -- and yeah, you HAVE to take al lthat into consideration to know where to fire). The tracers let me see immediately what I did wrong with a shot I missed, so I have been "learning" new shots. I agree with Murdr, though, that I'd prefer them off once I've improved my gunnery enough to consolidate the new shots into the "automatic" zone.
That's interesting... I might be having the same problem... Perhaps I'll have to turn them on for a few months to figure some things out. I never thought of it that way, thanks :aok
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I seem to recall reading that at least one US unit loaded tracers at the end of their belts to let the pilots know they were getting low on ammo. There were no ammo counters and there was a need to conserve a little ammo for the trip back to base.
I fly tracers off. I would recommend that for a while to at least force you to learn sight picture/alignment, but after that, as pointed out above, there are sometimes advantages to tracers.
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Definitely tracers off!
As Murdr said, you have a lot of advantages and, IMO, no disadvantage at all. Lusche, maybe your aim goes bad when you turn them off because you fly many planes with different weapon ballistics.. honestly mine just improved when I turned them off, and went bad when I started flying another plane, the K4. EDIT: in fact, I'm considering turning them back on, to get a fell for that dang cannon... I never had such a loving hate for a weapon! /EDIT
I'm really mad at people who don't have tracers off and don't shoot at point blank range... usually, when I approach an unaware target, from behind and below, on his blind six spot, I close distance as much as I can to kill him with a well placed tater..... and I have the whole thing spoiled by some noob that begins spraying at my target from 800/600 yards, with tracers flying everywhere!!!!! :mad: :D
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Gianlupo leave the tracers off, drop into the TA, turn on the lead computing gunsight. Shoot off your mg ammo, so you have a single cross left showing you lead for the tater gun.
Now fly around for a couple hours behind various planes as they turn, loop, etc.
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Lusche, maybe your aim goes bad when you turn them off because you fly many planes with different weapon ballistics
I would have said I have now more or less used to the different weapons (all set to same convergence) and I was flying that different planes from that start of the "no tracers" period, and like I said before, a few days it was all ok.
But to eleminate that possible error source, the last time I did this experiment was when I was flying the 109F-4 almost exclusively for 2 weeks (about 300 kills).
First everything was fine, then it went rapidly downhill.
Especially with high angle shots at medium distances and up, I simply wasn't able to correct my fire as I could not see anymore how I was missing my enemy with my first short burst. First days a rather stable 20%, then rapidly dropping down to 12%.
At that point I pulled the emergency break because it was gettin worse day by day.
Nowadays I switch tracers off only for a few single flights per tour.