Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Serenity on September 07, 2007, 01:12:00 AM
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I've got a few questions. I know NOTHING about ground wars. So, Ive got some questions, in some different subjects. Now, I KNOW I can google it, but I figure what better place to ask questions than here, because here, if you guys make no sense, I can ask for a clarification! So, lets begin:
What determines whether a vehicle is a Tank or a Tank Destroyer. The M36 and the M26 look almost identical. They both have a 90mm gun. But the M26 is considered a heavy tank, while the M36 is called a tank destroyer! Whats the deciding factor?
Second, what determines true gun strength. Again, using the M26, its 90mm gun is said to be ALMOST as powerful as the German 88mm. How is a 90mm gun less powerful than an 88mm gun? Is it velocity? And my book on tanks does not say whether the gun is considered 'High Velocity' or not, so is there any other way to determine strength? Or is it just a 'common knowledge' thing?
In modern-day tanks, the ammo is called 'Sabot'. Is this an acronym? If so, what does it stand for? And what are the standard types of rounds used and what are they used for? What were their world war two counterparts?
Now I know I could just google this, but I know there are people here who CREW on tanks, so I figured they could explain this a LOT better than wikipedia, or any other website. So please, if all you have to say is "Google It", please hold your tongue. Thank you very much for your serious responses.
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Tank destroyers have less armor then a tank and often open turret.
Diameter of barrel is only one factor when it comes to power of a gun. shape of projectile, barrel lenght, how much preassure it can take etc etc is just as important.
Sabot is as far as i know not a projectile, but a "holder" that surrounds a smaller projectile as it travels through the barrel. If you just lay a small round in a big barrel it would not go far when you fired it as most of the gasses would go past it doing no good. The sabot is a holder that you put your smaller projectile so that all the gasses from the charge is used to propell it. As soon as the sabot has left the barrel it separates from the projectile and falls to the ground while the smaller projectile keeps on going. google it and you will find pics
-edit- google for SABOT and its the first thing that pops up.... dont be so lazy ;)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Tank destroyers have less armor then a tank and often open turret.
Diameter of barrel is only one factor when it comes to power of a gun. shape of projectile, barrel lenght, how much preassure it can take etc etc is just as important.
Sabot is as far as i know not a projectile, but a "holder" that surrounds a smaller projectile as it travels through the barrel. If you just lay a small round in a big barrel it would not go far when you fired it as most of the gasses would go past it doing no good. The sabot is a holder that you put your smaller projectile so that all the gasses from the charge is used to propell it. As soon as the sabot has left the barrel it separates from the projectile and falls to the ground while the smaller projectile keeps on going. google it and you will find pics
Thanks Nilsen. If anyone else can clarify the types of projectiles... I dont know why, but my strange quirks kicked in, and I will get no sleep until I get this info, lol.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot
from wikipedia you will find all the answers far quicker than i can type em with my busted finger..
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Originally posted by Serenity
I've got a few questions. I know NOTHING about ground wars. So, Ive got some questions, in some different subjects. Now, I KNOW I can google it, but I figure what better place to ask questions than here, because here, if you guys make no sense, I can ask for a clarification! So, lets begin:
What determines whether a vehicle is a Tank or a Tank Destroyer. The M36 and the M26 look almost identical. They both have a 90mm gun. But the M26 is considered a heavy tank, while the M36 is called a tank destroyer! Whats the deciding factor?
Second, what determines true gun strength. Again, using the M26, its 90mm gun is said to be ALMOST as powerful as the German 88mm. How is a 90mm gun less powerful than an 88mm gun? Is it velocity? And my book on tanks does not say whether the gun is considered 'High Velocity' or not, so is there any other way to determine strength? Or is it just a 'common knowledge' thing?
In modern-day tanks, the ammo is called 'Sabot'. Is this an acronym? If so, what does it stand for? And what are the standard types of rounds used and what are they used for? What were their world war two counterparts?
Now I know I could just google this, but I know there are people here who CREW on tanks, so I figured they could explain this a LOT better than wikipedia, or any other website. So please, if all you have to say is "Google It", please hold your tongue. Thank you very much for your serious responses.
I am no GV expert either.. but gun mm is just the width of the barrel/projectile, there are many other factors which can effect the power of the gun, like muzzle velocity, length of barrel etc. This is like the guns in AH - the 20mm on the A6M2/109E is pitiful compared to the Hispano.
AFAIK Sabot rounds were developed by the British at the end of the second world war, it is basically a projectile which splits in half after leaving the barrel, keeping just a dart like projectile which is good for AP. A 17pdr gun with a Sabot round would defeat pretty much any tank then in service.
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To make it complete,
tank destroyers by definition are basically "poor man's tanks", mounting the biggest possible gun on the smallest possible chassis. This usually results in limited offensive value, like decreased armor or absence of a revolving turret. They are compromises which sacrifice offensive or defensive capabilities in order to max out their firepower, silhouette and or armor protection.
There have been to approaches in WW2.
One is the concept of having a tank-like design with a big gun inside a revolving but open topped turret, like the M10, M18 and M36. All have rather light armor but increased speed and due to their open tops increased SA, but reduced survivability.
The second one is the self propelled anti tank gun. A big gun mounted to the chassis of regular tank designs, but without a revolving turret. The has their gun mounted inside a limited traverse and elevation cradle, usually where very low silhouette and frontally very heavily armored.
Example are the StugIII, StugIV, Jagdpanther, SU-85, SU-100, Elephant (which is a bit of an exception to the rule to use common tank chassis), Nashorn (which doesnt have low silhouette nor heavy armor, but mounts a 88mmL71, the gun of the later Kingtiger plus advanced firecontrol to a Panzer IV chassis) and many others.
Sabot is a nickname for under-calibre armor piercing rounds. Like already mentioned by others, technically it is the sorrounding cage, not the projectile itself. Sabot as a nickname nowadays is basically only used by US nomenclature and only for APFSDS rounds. The british call the same type of round "Fin" by tanker parlance, "KE" in german tanker parlance.
Regards,
Matt
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the sabot round was first used in the gulf war...essentially SABOT round is a solid rod made from tungsten or depleted uranium..once the round leaves the barrel, the jacket is shed and it becomes a dart and it essentially is a kinetic energy weapon. however...in ww2 the sherman fired the M61 HE/APC-T ( High Explosive /Armor Piercing Capped Tracer)round from its 75mm main gun.
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Originally posted by TOMCAT21
the sabot round was first used in the gulf war...essentially SABOT round is a solid rod made from tungsten or depleted uranium..once the round leaves the barrel, the jacket is shed and it becomes a dart and it essentially is a kinetic energy weapon. however...in ww2 the sherman fired the M61 HE/APC-T ( High Explosive /Armor Piercing Capped Tracer)round from its 75mm main gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-piercing_discarding_sabot
Tomcat, they were used before that, see the link about APDS.
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Furball, I sit corrected.:aok
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"sabot' is a french word for shoe.
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As well as being a french word for shoe the 2nd defination for Sabot in Websters is: "a thrust-transmitting carrier that positions a missile in a gun barrel or launching tube and that prevents the escape of gas ahead of the missile"
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Originally posted by Serenity
I've got a few questions. I know NOTHING about ground wars. So, Ive got some questions, in some different subjects. Now, I KNOW I can google it, but I figure what better place to ask questions than here, because here, if you guys make no sense, I can ask for a clarification! So, lets begin:
What determines whether a vehicle is a Tank or a Tank Destroyer. The M36 and the M26 look almost identical. They both have a 90mm gun. But the M26 is considered a heavy tank, while the M36 is called a tank destroyer! Whats the deciding factor?
Second, what determines true gun strength. Again, using the M26, its 90mm gun is said to be ALMOST as powerful as the German 88mm. How is a 90mm gun less powerful than an 88mm gun? Is it velocity? And my book on tanks does not say whether the gun is considered 'High Velocity' or not, so is there any other way to determine strength? Or is it just a 'common knowledge' thing?
In modern-day tanks, the ammo is called 'Sabot'. Is this an acronym? If so, what does it stand for? And what are the standard types of rounds used and what are they used for? What were their world war two counterparts?
Now I know I could just google this, but I know there are people here who CREW on tanks, so I figured they could explain this a LOT better than wikipedia, or any other website. So please, if all you have to say is "Google It", please hold your tongue. Thank you very much for your serious responses.
Serenity, there's been a lot of talk about sabot rounds-but, from everything I've read, and other games I've played that modeled WWII tanks ( iPanzer'44), Only the Soviet T-34/85 actually used Sabot rounds. Everyone else used APBC( Armor Peircing, Ballistic Capped, with Tungsten cores) or AP or HVAP (High Velocity Armor Peircing).
Furball was right about the gun caliber- Many factors go into an Anti-Tank gun. For example, in the Pzkw. Mark VIE Tiger, It used an L56/88mm. gun.
The L56 stands for the length of the bore x the diameter of the shell the gun fired...In other words, the barrel was 88mm. X 56 long.
When the Germans introduced the Pak 43 88mm. AT gun, it had a barrel length of L/70, which was a longer weapon, firing a different shell(but, the projectile had the same caliber.) The ammunition would not interchange, because the shell casing was longer, and a little wider than that of the L/56 weapon. The L/70 was used in the Nashorn, the jagdpanzer IV, the jagdpanther, the elephant, and the "King Tiger", or Tiger II. It's AP round was (reportedly) able to kill T-34's at ranges of 2000 meters or more, even with a frontal shot.
If you want to do a little research, try this link:http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer.htm
It gives some good info on German armor.
I had some stuff on Allied armor, but It's gonna take me some time to dig it up.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Serenity, there's been a lot of talk about sabot rounds-but, from everything I've read, and other games I've played that modeled WWII tanks ( iPanzer'44), Only the Soviet T-34/85 actually used Sabot rounds. Everyone else used APBC( Armor Peircing, Ballistic Capped, with Tungsten cores) or AP or HVAP (High Velocity Armor Peircing).
You are wrong. The Russians used HVAP - type rounds, not sabot. The British used sabot rounds.
Look at Furball's link.
I've yet to see any mention of a WWII era Russian gun using a sabot round.
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I am a tanker, 24 years and still going. U.S. Army. I've been on the M-60A3, M1IP and M1A1. Was going to answer, but your question has been answered a few times already. If you would like to read more on Tank Destroyers in WWII here is a link
http://www.efour4ever.com/tank_destroyer.htm
Armor Leads the Way.
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I'm not sure tank destroyers have less armor as a rule. Think Jagdpanther,
JagdTiger or the Hetzer. I think the mission determines the designation. A
tank destroyer's primary task is to kill tanks, where a tank may be infantry
support, assault, or many other uses...think of the AVRE Churchill or the
Sherman flail.
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Originally posted by john9001
"sabot' is a french word for shoe.
The root for the word "sabotage" if i remember correctly. Something to do with workers throwing their shoes into the machinery to stop it from working... but hey, I could be wrong too.