Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Virage on September 08, 2007, 01:05:18 AM
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Nothing like circling a base for an hour waiting for 2 mossies to show up, dive and strafe 1 ack. Then I look at the logs and c the majority of the mossie squadron hit a10. What gives.
I think the rules should include that an attack has to be in squad strength at least. This sacrificing of 1 or 2 planes to meet the 1 hour rule, then hitting the base late in the frame is lame.
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Yep in war we need to E-mail, Phone and Text what everyone is going to do. Just to make it fair. next time just Email me your orders We can make it fun!
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Fighting 31 was asigned to guard a train. T+10 we had 5 N1Ks show up. At T+50 or later 6 more cons showed up. Wasn't a very action packed night, but everyone has their roles to fill.
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A8 had a fighter sweep hit it around T+35 and the fighters lingered for at least 10 minutes. And the fighter sweep was fairly large, 30+ planes. Both A10 and A8 squads saw action before the T+60 time frame as did an unfortunate bunch of ki84s who happened to fly up the river by A21 at T+10 -- they ran into the fighter sweep of the 332, AK, & 347th.
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Fighting31 defended the train as ordered and a qucik attach right at beginning was all shot down...... Followed by a lone (and majorly warping) NIKI which was killed without problem.
We all landed to rearm to go and attack A-10. Just as we were lifting off in our 47's a flight of KI's and Niki's came in and caught us low and slow and they got into our train.
All in all it was rather slow night and was quite unfortunate we got caught lifting off heavy.
Was still a very fun event (as they all are) and I personally am looking forward to the next frame!!!!!
<<>> to those that make these events possible, taking their time so the rest of us can enjoy this type of fighting...
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Originally posted by forHIM
A8 had a fighter sweep hit it around T+35 and the fighters lingered for at least 10 minutes. And the fighter sweep was fairly large, 30+ planes.
2 mossies with 30 escorts. And the mossie squad hit both a10 and a8.
Why dont we all take off in fighters and meet in the middle.
Oh but that would be the MA.
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Originally posted by Virage
Nothing like circling a base for an hour waiting for 2 mossies to show up, dive and strafe 1 ack. Then I look at the logs and c the majority of the mossie squadron hit a10. What gives.
I think the rules should include that an attack has to be in squad strength at least. This sacrificing of 1 or 2 planes to meet the 1 hour rule, then hitting the base late in the frame is lame.
If that was the case u circling A8 for 2hrs, where were u when your fellow countrymen were dying over it. We got there at t+35. Bombers we had got intercepted I believe but I not sure on that. BtW, I think our fighter sweep was close to 50-60 when we sweept A10 but lost some there and about 30-40 continued to a8.
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Virage I was not watching the clock, but I am pretty sure our squad of Spits were over A8 well within the hour. We were slotted to do a fighter sweep. We upped 4, flew to 10 and then to 8. We had engagements most of the way.
It is not any fun flying around for 2 hours with little action. What happened to you guys was not the intent of the frame CiC.
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My point is being missed.
It is NOT that A8 didn't have allied planes before T+60. It is that there was no attempt to ATTACK THE BASE before T+60. Only 30-40 (ur numbers) FIGHTERS looking for kills, not hitting hangers.
While the Axis split its force between ATTACKERS AND FIGHTERS, it looks like the Allies went ALL FIGHTERS with a token strike force.
Is it normal to have 1 squad of 7 pilots assigned to hit 2 different targets?
Is this the future of FSO? Load up with all hvy fighters that drop on takeoff, a few token sacrificial Attackers to get in before T+60, and then pound the targets with fighters after T+60 once they have cleared the air and rearmed?
I realize no one likes to get the bomber/attack assignment, but it is a part of FSO. I think each target should be hit (i.e. bombed) before T+60 by a single squad each (at least).
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Originally posted by AKDogg
If that was the case u circling A8 for 2hrs, where were u when your fellow countrymen were dying over it.
An hour = 1 hour.
We were dodging 51's, 47's, and Spit8's. Forcing them to dive out. All the while holding position for an ATTACK that never came.
Essentially wasting our time.
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What was explained to me as a CiC a year or two ago when the 60 min rule was first introduced was that a fighter sweep constitutes an attack and fulfills the requirement.
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I'd have traded a bit of action with ya:)....we got hit between A21 and A10 and the buffs were under fire all the way from the initial inbound leg to the IP and thru the bomb run...
No question that this setup favors the allies. Jugs and 38's are very capable in a strike roll....I think the jugs carry more tonnage then the ki-67's:). If you look at the logs the our ki-67's inflicted more casualties then the nikki's did...and the -25 jugs hurt us more then the spits did. We got caught up with the spitties and 38's low over for after bomb release. I thought a spitty got me but it was blukitty in a -25...
I saw a bunch of spitties and a few 38's but dont even recall SEEING a jug at the end. I'm guessing they were RTB to rearm and bounced the little "furball"....
The huge spike down in the nikkis performance envelope at 15-20k was amazingly apparent...of course my gunnery is pitiful in the nikki....I fired 700+ rounds in the 400 range and got zero hits....jeez
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Originally posted by sgt203
We all landed to rearm to go and attack A-10. Just as we were lifting off in our 47's a flight of KI's and Niki's came in and caught us low and slow and they got into our train.
Yeah we got lucky on that one, the train wasn't even our target but got called in to take it out, so we came in the back door low and fast from A7, we saw you guys at the base so we started to head a little more west so you wouldn't see us, then by pure luck the train started to fire at us from our 9 o'clock, if not for that we would have flown right by it, luckly by time you guys noticed us the train was dead.:D
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All targets must be hit within the first hour of the frame. <---From FSO RUles.
Think this may be the problem. To me, I see the rule and I understand this to mean hit targets assigned. As in, I get the orders to hit all Hangers at base Axx. My target in not base Axx, but the hangers at base Axx. I will send in my attack force to hit the hangers before the hour rule.
Another person may have been told that a fighter sweep counts towards this.
Another person may have been told that hitting a ack counts.
So, what is the rule? If fighter sweeps and killing a ack counts, then it will change how I run my frame when I am the CiC.
I also remember we had a big conflict once where a CiC(that I was on the side of), just had all of us converge on the first target. We then just rolled the big train to the other targets and cleaned up. He hit all targets within the first hour. He did not break any rules doing this. I thought there was just a understanding not to do this. When the rules are vague, then problems will occur.
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Originally posted by trax1
if not for that we would have flown right by it, luckly by time you guys noticed us the train was dead.:D
From what we were told since the attack came in roughly around 12:09PM EST, the allies were given credit for defending the train. Correct me if I'm wrong once the scores are released.
It was beyond T+60 and that was the only reason we were at the base refueling, since the CiC had given us credit for defending it.
Anyways, this was my first time flying the Jug for more than 10 minutes in the last 6 months. I've gained more respect for it.
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We're were tasked to hit A8 no later than H+50, no plan lasts beyond the first shot as they say.
Outbound we were forced to split the force, I sent 4 planes to the IP to wait. The remaining 3 had other overriding orders, once that was complete, we were heading as fast as we could to join up with the others, but time was against us due to the unforseen events.
I was very worried that we wouldn't get to the IP in time to make the H+60 requirement. The situation was such that I was forced to split the 4 into 2 each as I think the other buffs were delayed due to interception.
Thats the reason that you got to see only 2 Mossies, their accuracy was more from the fact that they were rushed and pursed by a number of enemy planes. They didn't spend 50 minutes of their night just to die, then and there, that was certainly not the plan.
After they died, we were told to concentrate on A10 because it was safer for us to operate there, whereas A8 was not, which is why you see the squad in force there at A10.
Hope this explains things Virage.
JR
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Originally posted by Fulmar
From what we were told since the attack came in roughly around 12:09PM EST, the allies were given credit for defending the train. Correct me if I'm wrong once the scores are released.
It was beyond T+60 and that was the only reason we were at the base refueling, since the CiC had given us credit for defending it.
I just checked the logs and your right I guess we hit it about 2:30 late, well it wasn't my squads main objective so thats why we got there late, it was still alot of fun.
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We got credit for the OBJ destroyed, I dont know what it will do to the point total.
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Busy today, I will try to chime in tonight.
I need to do some investigation first.
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Originally posted by WxMan
What was explained to me as a CiC a year or two ago when the 60 min rule was first introduced was that a fighter sweep constitutes an attack and fulfills the requirement.
If this is the case then the Train score should still stand for the AXIS. Due to the 2 previous attacks made. Unsuccessful they may have been, the bottom line is they were there to attack the Train. The statement at the bottom of the newly revised FSO rules indicates that the T+60 rule is in place so that people are not flying around unable to engage. The Squad that was guarding the Train stated that they were engaged not once but twice in defence of the train prior to T+60. This alone should have satisfied the criteria for the rule. It does not state in the FSO rules that the target must be destroyed by T+60.
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If thats the case then I deffinatly think we should get the points for the train attack because my squad was the 3 attack on that train.
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Originally posted by SpiveyCH
I also remember we had a big conflict once where a CiC(that I was on the side of), just had all of us converge on the first target. We then just rolled the big train to the other targets and cleaned up. He hit all targets within the first hour. He did not break any rules doing this. I thought there was just a understanding not to do this. When the rules are vague, then problems will occur.
Have questioned this hour theory more than a few times, but it is a determination by the CM crew as to whether what happened constitutes an attack (or attempt) or not.
Alot of the rules have grey areas, and has been answered to me by the CM crew that do to many circumstances that can occur, each one will be taken by itself and judged accordingly. But they can answer for themselves and don't need me for it (not wanting to say something they haven't).
But in some circumstance I agree on alot of the FSO is based on personnel staying within the spirit of the event, which I see sometimes goes back to MA mentality. When multiple aircraft dive from alt for a BNZ and loose their advantage fast then run to hide in base ack, or planes passing up air to air combat to do multiple passes for vulches on rearms is IMO not in the spirit of the event. But they are legit and whether they are in keeping within the "spirit" is for each individual to decide on their own.
Going strictly by the posted rules, it seems to me as long as I hit the target within the hour time frame, I could group 90 planes together as a strong force to do their circuit and send 1 plane NOE to each target just to meet that rule. I wouldn't due to keeping things in the spirit of the event, but it would be legal.
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Originally posted by sgt203
Fighting31 defended the train as ordered and a qucik attach right at beginning was all shot down...... Followed by a lone (and majorly warping) NIKI which was killed without problem....
This would seem to sum it up, the initial attack was stopped. The single was probably what was available or a late arrival who never caught up yo the original attack. So the 3rd assualt was clearly a follow up to the original attack which apparently happened well before the hour.
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If you look at the log they have multiple kills in an engagement roughly 11 to 14 minutes into the frame. So the train was actually attacked initially very early. Given the fact that multiple cons were engaged and killed it would seem that an attack was pressed on the target and repelled.
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I would have to say humble that the first group of NIKI's (5 I think) was an attempt at attacking the train.
The lone NIKI however I would not as it came in at about 12K:D
Being as a train is obviosuly on the ground and not at 12K the second solo NIKI was not attempt at attacking the train.. actually I have thought about that guy and still can come up with nothing as to what he was actually doing, maybe a scout is the best I can come up with.
However the first group most certainly tried to get to the train tracks and as such IMO constitued an attack.
This was well within T+60 and was actually more like T+10..
<> to the sneaky bastages that caught us on the ground.:furious
PS.. you posted while I was posting :aok
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Thank you!!! yes I am a SNEAKY BASTAGE.
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Man you guys sure know how to make me earn my money.
Oh............... Wait......... I'm not getting any money. ;)
Ok, here's the deal, I just don't have time to read this entire screed. But I know what the main questions are.
Nothing like circling a base for an hour waiting for 2 mossies to show up, dive and strafe 1 ack. Then I look at the logs and c the majority of the mossie squadron hit a10. What gives.
I think the rules should include that an attack has to be in squad strength at least. This sacrificing of 1 or 2 planes to meet the 1 hour rule, then hitting the base late in the frame is lame.
The allies only launched 5 formations of B26's to hit both 10 and 8. That's a pretty tall order, even for the best of bomber pilots. and considering the amount of ordinance that the b26 carries, it is rather silly to think they can do that. As far as I can tell the B26's never made it to 8, and they didn't rearm to go back. Or they were all dead. IMO, the Allies should have used more bombers, in two different groups to attack 8.
The intention is for targets to be attack by a size-able force with ordinance in T+60. The main reason for the rule is that squads don't go all night not seeing any action till the last few minutes. A8 was "attacked" (by mostly fighters) in < T+60.
But I do think the Allies should of had more of an attack force (bombers or JABO) to hit A8.
B26 pilots........... 5
Ki-67 Pilots......... 13
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As for the Train at 1.
It was to be attacked very early in the frame, but it looks like all of the attackers were destroyed before they could arrive. Therefore it was attacked as soon as other forces could be vectored in for the attack. If legitimate attack force is wiped out, before it arrives at it's target, The t+60 rule does not normally apply.
HOWEVER, 1 or 2 heavy fighters is not a legitimate attack.
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Originally posted by SLED
Man you guys sure know how to make me earn my money.
Oh............... Wait......... I'm not getting any money
Money or not we thank you for your effort and will accept the final word thanks for looking into it.
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Thanks sled.
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Originally posted by SpiveyCH
I also remember we had a big conflict once where a CiC(that I was on the side of), just had all of us converge on the first target. We then just rolled the big train to the other targets and cleaned up. He hit all targets within the first hour. He did not break any rules doing this. I thought there was just a understanding not to do this. When the rules are vague, then problems will occur.
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lol that was me.
THE GREEN SWARM:aok
event of legend
everyones always talking about the "spirit" of fso.i still dont really know what that is?the spirit comes from the people and the plans the cic makes.that changes weekly so how can you expect it to be the same every time?thats part of the fun is that its allways different.
when i first flew tods about 6 years ago,i thought the spirit was a better planned war.a test for squads on organization , skill,and mostly planning. putting what you learn in the ma to the test against an opponent with equall skill (maybee)
this rule about +60 is unneccessary imo.were catering to crybabies."we flew around for 2 hrs and saw nothing" waaaa
that means your side did something right.deal with it.its rare.dont like it dont fly
if you fly for 2 hrs in fso and see no action,and then say it wasnt fun,your in the wrong squad.id fly anywhere with my guys(and girl)just to shoot the **** and have a drink with them.ya we would rather kill somethin,but you wont hear us cry about it.im just glad to have the event,fso staff.
my point is we have a 2 hr war and targets to hit and defend.we should be able to do anything we can come up with to achieve it.the +60 rule is vauge and will continue to cause problembs.theres no way to fix it but to get rid of it.or limit target attacks completely to +60.