Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fariz on September 10, 2007, 06:24:20 AM
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AH strat is in a very bad shape now. It has HQs, factories, trains, cars, but all of them were balanced to be useless. At the moment main idea behind a strat is not to annoy most vocal part of community, and change fields sometimes. Well, it works, we do not have many forum whines about "hq raids", "fuel porkers", "lemmings", "hords" etc. Game is more politcorrect to all sides now with its uncapturable fields and 40% to get from each country.
But all those changes made AH a sterile environment stratwise. It does not require much of teamplay, planning and efforts anymore.
Thanks for attention.
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Hi Fariz! :aok
Nice to see you are still there.
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Factories don't produce things of immediate value, tangible enough that one side will fight to get at it, and the other side will fight to keep it. (The key word is "fight.") We fight far more vehemently over base possesion than over factories. I see no point in HT keeping them present on the maps.
Factories now are too easy to bomb from alt, too easy to resupply after bombers spend an inordinant amount of time getting there, too lightly defended from the ground (as in the puff ack is a joke:rolleyes: ) and physically too small in size. One flight can cream it in one pass.
Either have a more significant strat system, or remove it, IMO.
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Originally posted by Fariz
Game is more politcorrect to all sides now with its uncapturable fields and 40% to get from each country.
But all those changes made AH a sterile environment stratwise. It does not require much of teamplay, planning and efforts anymore.
Getting 40% of fields from both other teams now requires much more teamplay, planning end efforts than ever before.
In the past, constant hammering on the weakest team ensured an easy victory. Now it doesn't anymore.
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Getting 40% of fields from both other teams now requires much more teamplay, planning end efforts than ever before.
...which has aptly proved that when an objective which requires teamplay exists, people start ignoring it immediately.
In the past, constant hammering on the weakest team ensured an easy victory. Now it doesn't anymore.
...which leads to the present, where there are no 'victories' for anyone anymore. Now, the weakest team still gets constantly hammered, but unlike before, they get hammered all week long, since there is no reset.
...
Let's face it. The strat in the MA is a bust.
Base capture and reset conditions have been changed to become harder, which is a good thing, but the problem is the strat hasn't been changed sufficiently to accomodate it.
The system still rewards tards, dweebs, and hordes. Why in the world would anyone form a really talented bomber squad and go hit refineries and factories and stuff, when they can't even dent the strategic outcome of the war? Better to take hordes of dweebs who suicide bomb field objects to take bases, than to up bombers and escorts and stuff to go hit something inside enemy territory, which doesn't do anything at all.
Besides, no matter how well oneside batters the other with 'strategic' attacks, as long as FHs and BHs up in 15mins, enemy numbers in that sector remains constant. The only real way to progress on the map, is by sheer numbers - the horde.
As long as the MA is devoid of the concept of attrition, unlimited fuels, unlimited ammunition, unlimited planes, unlimited everything, strat is meaningless.
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Its the biggest disappointment of the game for me. Id prefer just 2 arenas in here. A combat arena where there are no strats or captures, just a big FT and some GV bases, and a war arena where all the strats work to strangle an enemy, where certain vehicles become unavailable thru attrition or strat bombing and people lose...and enjoy it.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
...which leads to the present, where there are no 'victories' for anyone anymore. Now, the weakest team still gets constantly hammered, but unlike before, they get hammered all week long, since there is no reset.
"No reset" is a bit of a exaggeration.
Since start of this tour we had seen in
EW: 12 resets
MW: 7 resets
LWO: 6 resets
LWB: 7 resets
in just 10 days.
In the old MA with it's large maps, we often had only one map change when skuzzy did the weekly reset.
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Originally posted by Lusche
"No reset" is a bit of a exaggeration.
Since start of this tour we had seen in
EW: 12 resets
MW: 7 resets
LWO: 6 resets
LWB: 7 resets
in just 10 days.
In the old MA with it's large maps, we often had only one map change when skuzzy did the weekly reset.
you may dismiss the EW and MW resets as frauds they are typically done by the 5th SFD SOAR squad or The Hired Guns squad and they do so when everyone else is sleeping. the reason it's not one per day is that if even one defender ups they are completely impotent to take a base.
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Originally posted by storch
you may dismiss the EW and MW resets as frauds they are typically done by the 5th SFD SOAR squad or The Hired Guns squad and they do so when everyone else is sleeping. the reason it's not one per day is that if even one defender ups they are completely impotent to take a base.
I just wanted to present complete numbers - we all do know how maps are reset in EW
BTW, 12 maps in 10 days is even more than one per day ;)
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indeed it is
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I'm absolutely amazed at some people on this forum. After 5 years, and constant whining and requests, you still don't get the fundamentals with the game. I'm not going to name who or point fingers but after so many years I would of thought the signal to noise ratio would of at least improved!?
P.S. Fariz this does not include you. I agree completely with your post.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
[BWhy in the world would anyone form a really talented bomber squad and go hit refineries and factories and stuff, when they can't even dent the strategic outcome of the war? [/B]
Is it still not true that if the city(s) are leveled first and then level a "strat" ... does it not take a considerable amount of time for those strats to regenerate.
For example ...
1) Level the city(s)
2) Level the AAA/Ord/Troops strat
3) Take out the AAA/Ord/Troops at a field.
Would it not take a very long time for the AAA/Ord/Troops to regenerate at a field ?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Is it still not true that if the city(s) are leveled first and then level a "strat" ... does it not take a considerable amount of time for those strats to regenerate.
For example ...
1) Level the city(s)
2) Level the AAA/Ord/Troops strat
3) Take out the AAA/Ord/Troops at a field.
Would it not take a very long time for the AAA/Ord/Troops to regenerate at a field ?
Maximum 2 hours - unless resupplied by players
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Originally posted by Lusche
Maximum 2 hours - unless resupplied by players
So there is some assemblance of a "strat" attrition in place ... albeit old.
Problem is, I don't think that most people even know this information ... and/or ... the task of properly effecting the "strat" is too daunting/boring/hard to level the city(s) first before actually leveling a "strat".
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Originally posted by Fariz
AH strat is in a very bad shape now. It has HQs, factories, trains, cars, but all of them were balanced to be useless. At the moment main idea behind a strat is not to annoy most vocal part of community, and change fields sometimes. Well, it works, we do not have many forum whines about "hq raids", "fuel porkers", "lemmings", "hords" etc. Game is more politcorrect to all sides now with its uncapturable fields and 40% to get from each country.
But all those changes made AH a sterile environment stratwise. It does not require much of teamplay, planning and efforts anymore.
Thanks for attention.
Whats the problem? Cant you still pick and vulch or did they change that too? :rofl
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Let me ask this? When was the last time you saw the city leveled and the starts systematically reduced? I spend almost all my free time in the game, in my bombers, and Ive never seen it. Sure Ive seen a city reduced, if its close enough to the front lines,. But a systematic bombing campaign???
Truth is there are very few of us willing to fly bombers in the MA after strat targets. Even when I fly in my squad its usually not in the late war MA, and even then its one target and out.
In the one arena now? I think the blue? , the one with the water? I flew against one strat since its been up. The enemies strats are a long way away for a Bish, are heavily defended with radar you cant get around, and have main airbases around them that are 5,000' or more in elevation. So why would I jump in heavies and spend 1&1/2 hour flying against targets that dont mean anything even if I can get thru to them?
Pity cause flying against strats is often thrilling and often pits you against the enemies best while a long, long way from home. When you fly long and high against strats you will probably run into some very accomplished sticks so when you take the target out, and live to tell about it, you've accomplished something.
But with the targets meaningless? With all the radars, and dar bars, and target lights going off, providing a highway for intercept? Why bother? I know I dont much bother now and until some changes are made then only 10% of these maps will actually be used for fighting.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
So there is some assemblance of a "strat" attrition in place ... albeit old.
Problem is, I don't think that most people even know this information ... and/or ... the task of properly effecting the "strat" is too daunting/boring/hard to level the city(s) first before actually leveling a "strat".
Well, from the point of view of a true strategic / win-the-war player it's still a waste of "resources".
Assumed you are not a bomb'n'bailer, it takes 2-3 buff guys (to account for some combat attrition) to level a city. (You could do it all on your own, but only under favourable circumstances) Total mission time at least 30-45 minutes.
The same for a ack factory target.
So these three guys have already spend 60-90 minutes at least in the air before now porking individual fields. Let's say they have completed all their task's in about 2 hours.
But 3 guys with that determination, patience and skill would have wreaked much more havoc when tactially supporting their team's landgrab efforts over the course of 2 hours.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
In the one arena now? I think the blue? , the one with the water? I flew against one strat since its been up. The enemies strats are a long way away for a Bish, are heavily defended with radar you cant get around, and have main airbases around them that are 5,000' or more in elevation. So why would I jump in heavies and spend 1&1/2 hour flying against targets that dont mean anything even if I can get thru to them?
Well, that is a question only you can answer. Why do you do it?
Pity cause flying against strats is often thrilling and often pits you against the enemies best while a long, long way from home. When you fly long and high against strats you will probably run into some very accomplished sticks so when you take the target out, and live to tell about it, you've accomplished something.
No, no and nop
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Its the biggest disappointment of the game for me. Id prefer just 2 arenas in here. A combat arena where there are no strats or captures, just a big FT and some GV bases, and a war arena where all the strats work to strangle an enemy, where certain vehicles become unavailable thru attrition or strat bombing and people lose...and enjoy it.
This sounds pretty cool, though I am afraid the war arena would be pretty unpopulated.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Well, that is a question only you can answer. Why do you do it?
No, no and nop
Try reading my entire post. I did answer it.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Well, from the point of view of a true strategic / win-the-war player it's still a waste of "resources".
Assumed you are not a bomb'n'bailer, it takes 2-3 buff guys (to account for some combat attrition) to level a city. (You could do it all on your own, but only under favourable circumstances) Total mission time at least 30-45 minutes.
The same for a ack factory target.
So these three guys have already spend 60-90 minutes at least in the air before now porking individual fields. Let's say they have completed all their task's in about 2 hours.
But 3 guys with that determination, patience and skill would have wreaked much more havoc when tactially supporting their team's landgrab efforts over the course of 2 hours.
Well ... at least it is still in place and does offer, to those who want to do it, a goal.
I remember back in the day, bomber squad(s) and a fighter squad(s) would get together to this. Bombers and fighters would launch to take out the city(s) and when that was completed, another wing of bombers and fighters would lift to take out the "strats" (HQ being one of them). Then, with that completed, other base taking squads would then reek havoc on the fields and take advantage of efforts of the "strike" team.
But ... that is not the case anymore. People just don't have the patience to do that kind of stuff ... or they don't have the coordination/cooperation to pull it off ... or that type of "mission/effort" would runing their score/rank.
I am not saying that the existing strat system is great, but there is a system there that can be exploited ... if they choose to exploit it.
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Current conditions require a Strat Target to be taken below 50% before its effects are felt.
Thus if City strat is at 60%...it is still not a choke point for all other strats.
If other strats are still above 50% and city strat is still at 60%...no change.
Take strats below 50%...the change occurs.
Keep the strats below 50% and you will feel the effect.
Can a single Bomber with Drones take a strat below 50%? I suppose that is up to the skill of the Bomber Pilots and their selected Bombers.
Can single JABO Aircraft, alone, get Strat below 50%? Perhaps not...but in my Corsair with 2x1Ks and 8 Rockets I've been able to get strats down to 80% in one run. With three, or more Corsairs...easy to get below 50% in a single run.
Strats do affect gameplay...if you understand how the strats work.
If Bomber Pilots wish to target airfields and take out fighter hangars, radar, bomber hangars and ordnance, instead of Strat Targets, then the effect of Strat will not be felt.
Somehow...the job of JABOs got confused with the job of Bombers. JABOs now need 2800 lbs of ords to take out a single VH (in real Life...a 250, or 500 lber may have done the job of taking out ANY single hangar), but 3,000 pounds of ordnance can take out 80% of a City?
Well, no matter, I fly a Corsair! I can fly high enough to kill the bombers, and low enough to bomb Strats, or Airfields, or Towns, and mix it up with the fighters.
Strat works! I'm just wondering about the Bomber vs JABO role?
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Take away the pin-point sight we have now and bring back the old calibration and you will see more strat andless field targets being hit by bombers.
Much easier to carpet bomb a strat than pick off single hangers with the old calibrated bomb sight.
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I think the strat/capture/war model is just plain old.............
I would like to think there is even a mid to long term plan to re visit just how the frontline moves and what has to be done to move it and how it affects AC & V fields and the game play derived there of
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[/QUOTE]Can a single Bomber with Drones take a strat below 50%? I suppose that is up to the skill of the Bomber Pilots and their selected Bombers.
The short answer is "no". Ive done it in Lancs from very low but its involved turning around and bombing a 2nd, or even 3rd, time. I consider a good run in 17s or 24s when I can take out 30% to 40% of the target. I dont care how much skill you have you only have so many bombs. Some strats are different then others. Ive taken out all the fuel containers at a refinery and still only shut down 35% of the target.
So whats left for bomber sticks? Flying against front line airfields I guess. If your lucky, in your 280 mph bomber, you might even survive to get to your target. Not that your going to be able to stick your nose in the bomb-site anyways cause your going to be fighting off 10 enemy fighters.
I cant tell you how many times Ive signed on and seen that everyone's strats are at 100%. While "everyone" is flying at two or three front line flash points. It doesn't look to me like the current strat system is working. It looks to me like its totally useless.
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I dont know how many times ive gone on a milk run, in lancs at around 20k and attacked 3 different strat targets way behind the lines, and have been confronted by maybe 1 fighter or none at all..
I get my perk points and all.. but also get the distinct feeling that what I am doing is utterly pointless..
the enemy obviousley doesent seem to care..
you also see all the time on the country channel.
"something is over our city/refinery.. etc"
and the only reply is:
"prolly some milk runner at 30K"
and nobody bothers to do anything..
it strat had a direct and immediate effect this would not be the case..
if you could go level the grunt training strat and as a result disable troops at all the fields.. i would think the "oh well" attitude would change pretty quick.
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Originally posted by Snubby
..............
it strat had a direct and immediate effect this would not be the case..
if you could go level the grunt training strat and as a result disable troops at all the fields.. i would think the "oh well" attitude would change pretty quick.
This why you most likely will never see anything like this. Can you imagine the whines you'd get if taking out a grunt factor disabled troops over the whole map??
This is a game. People want action NOW! Nobody has the time to climb for 20-30 minutes and circle a strat target till it was time to rtb for fuel just so the troops don't get porked. Take away the "fun", and you loose the customers, I really doubt HTC would want that.
I don't how to fix strat, but yes its totally ineffective as it is. Very few people will run supplies to fix a porked base.... tho many will yell for others to do it :)..... Covering a strat target, or resupply it will take people away from the things they want to do.
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Originally posted by Snubby
I dont know how many times ive gone on a milk run, in lancs at around 20k and attacked 3 different strat targets way behind the lines, and have been confronted by maybe 1 fighter or none at all..
I get my perk points and all.. but also get the distinct feeling that what I am doing is utterly pointless..
the enemy obviousley doesent seem to care..
you also see all the time on the country channel.
"something is over our city/refinery.. etc"
and the only reply is:
"prolly some milk runner at 30K"
and nobody bothers to do anything..
it strat had a direct and immediate effect this would not be the case..
if you could go level the grunt training strat and as a result disable troops at all the fields.. i would think the "oh well" attitude would change pretty quick.
The key is ... you have to level the city(s) first ... City(s) supply strats ... take out the City(s) and the strats won't be resupplied.
Then when you level the grunt strat ... any troops that are disabled on airfields for that country are rendered useless for up to 2 hours.
It has three tiers to make it effective ...
City -> Strat -> Airfield strat.
If they are leveled in that order ... you have made a difference and if you keep the City(s) leveled, it will continue to make a difference ... and then you will get noticed and you would probably see all sorts of "bomber" killers in the air.
Just leveling a strat (such as Grunts), for all intents and purposes, does nothing ... except help your "rank" and that is the only reason why people spend as much time as they do leveling those places. Their intent is not to hurt the enemy ... it's to bolster their l337 rank.
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Originally posted by storch
you may dismiss the EW and MW resets as frauds they are typically done by the 5th SFD SOAR squad or The Hired Guns squad and they do so when everyone else is sleeping. the reason it's not one per day is that if even one defender ups they are completely impotent to take a base.
Storch, I hear ya' on this one. EW is just plain silly as far as capture/reset goes.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Its the biggest disappointment of the game for me. Id prefer just 2 arenas in here. A combat arena where there are no strats or captures, just a big FT and some GV bases, and a war arena where all the strats work to strangle an enemy, where certain vehicles become unavailable thru attrition or strat bombing and people lose...and enjoy it.
I like your idea, Filth, and as far as someone earlier saying that the War Arena would be sparsely populated, I would have to disagree. I think that both venues, combat and war alike would even out fairly well.
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Originally posted by Snubby
I dont know how many times ive gone on a milk run, in lancs at around 20k and attacked 3 different strat targets way behind the lines, and have been confronted by maybe 1 fighter or none at all..
I get my perk points and all.. but also get the distinct feeling that what I am doing is utterly pointless..
the enemy obviousley doesent seem to care..
you also see all the time on the country channel.
"something is over our city/refinery.. etc"
and the only reply is:
"prolly some milk runner at 30K"
and nobody bothers to do anything..
it strat had a direct and immediate effect this would not be the case..
if you could go level the grunt training strat and as a result disable troops at all the fields.. i would think the "oh well" attitude would change pretty quick.
I can identify with this. I'm often times hoping for a fight as I'm taking a bomber group over a supposedly valuable strat. But it almost invariably turns out to be a boring trip.
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Heck, I jumped in here in support of Bomber Pilots.
All I see is negativity.
I think I posted that it might take more than a SINGLE Corsair to take a strat target lower than 50%. That equates out to about 9,000 lbs, give or take a strafe or two, of ordnance if it takes three Corsairs.
Now a fully loaded Lanc can carry ...somewhere around...14,000 lbs of Ord?
And..multiply that by three...42,000 lbs of ordnance?
It matters not whether you do "pinpoint" calibration (as we do today), or whether you do the older style calibration (as we did before with the wind being a factor in bombing) by "fixing a point on the ground". What matters is... can you hit your target from whatever altitude you wish to fly, and can you encourage others to fly with you? Can you put bombs on target? Are you, perhaps, putting more bombs on target than is necessary? Can you not encourage others to fly with you?
If not, it really doesn't matter if you fly a Corsair, or a Lancaster...too many bombs is a waste of ordnance. Not enough ordnance gives you an opportunity to reverse and kill remaining targets.
How you choose to fly your strat mission...the bombing profile you selected...determines the outcome. If you choose to fly 42,000 pounds of ordnance as a Lanc with Drones and drop on three selected targets, and you drop 14,000 pounds of ordnance per target (if all is perfect)... will you take all strat targets you selected below 50%? I doubt it.
Accuracy, overkill, and the number of targets you select, and your individual skill in the Bombsight all come into play.
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lol, I would love to see troops disabled at all fields. that would go over real big. It's hard enough for the generals to coordinate a simple base attack let alone mount defense over factories. The minute troops die, it will be the furballer's fault, and I'm sure we'd all hear about it. AH is about air combat, not taking bases, not war. You are just noticing that the strat is not what it might be in a game focused on things that war is about. Maybe CT will bring some change, but I wouldn't ask HT to slow down on that and bring about some form of major gameplay changes unless there was a serious problem.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Its the biggest disappointment of the game for me. Id prefer just 2 arenas in here. A combat arena where there are no strats or captures, just a big FT and some GV bases, and a war arena where all the strats work to strangle an enemy, where certain vehicles become unavailable thru attrition or strat bombing and people lose...and enjoy it.
I would vote for this!
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While the strat system could be a lot more robust, the outcome or effect that people seem to be looking for, is the ability to screw up things for the other countries so much that they cannot effectively fight back. Really bad for gameplay, IMO.
The little cartoon war is just a reason for people to fight continually. It is not the singular point of AH, it's just there as motivation. IMO, if you separate the "war", and the furballing fighter pilots/camping GVers, you'd have, effectively, the same setup we have now- one arena with all sorts of action, and the other would be like an EWA with a few more people- little groups attacking bases while other little groups attack their bases, and almost no resistance for either group.
I think that would really suck.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
While the strat system could be a lot more robust, the outcome or effect that people seem to be looking for, is the ability to screw up things for the other countries so much that they cannot effectively fight back. Really bad for gameplay, IMO.
The little cartoon war is just a reason for people to fight continually. It is not the singular point of AH, it's just there as motivation. IMO, if you separate the "war", and the furballing fighter pilots/camping GVers, you'd have, effectively, the same setup we have now- one arena with all sorts of action, and the other would be like an EWA with a few more people- little groups attacking bases while other little groups attack their bases, and almost no resistance for either group.
I think that would really suck.
Of course everyone wants their actions to have input in winning the war. That isnt "screwing anything up". Thats called winning. As it is the game is basically won or lost on 5% to 10% of the map by guys who fly fighters against other fighters. Whatever input is made by bombers is accomplished by flying the bombers exactly how they shouldn't be flown. That is by the gang jumping in Lancs with 25% fuel and gang piling into the base 25 miles away that you want to take. How does that make for interesting game play?
Thats no strategy, not much skill, and not a whole lot of the games potential being used. You chase your tail long enough in a fur ball and someones bound to get in your sights so just blaze away.
Now the duals I have with fighters at 20,000', with 3 bombers against 1,2, or 3 fighters?? That is "skill" and finesse. I just had one with 2 guys whom I shot down, they took out one of my drones, my 17 was shot to pieces, I managed to drop my ords and somehow put the plane down. Now that action made 20 mins seem like 20 seconds. I bet for them too.
The simple fact is anything that makes it better for bomber sticks is going to make it that much better for fighters sticks and the game itself. The more strategy, tactics, and finesse in the game the better.
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Originally posted by Fariz
I miss the days of taking a lone La7 and knocking out dar, troops and hurting Ammo.
I don't.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Of course everyone wants their actions to have input in winning the war. That isnt "screwing anything up". Thats called winning. As it is the game is basically won or lost on 5% to 10% of the map by guys who fly fighters against other fighters. Whatever input is made by bombers is accomplished by flying the bombers exactly how they shouldn't be flown. That is by the gang jumping in Lancs with 25% fuel and gang piling into the base 25 miles away that you want to take. How does that make for interesting game play?
Thats no strategy, not much skill, and not a whole lot of the games potential being used. You chase your tail long enough in a fur ball and someones bound to get in your sights so just blaze away.
Now the duals I have with fighters at 20,000', with 3 bombers against 1,2, or 3 fighters?? That is "skill" and finesse. I just had one with 2 guys whom I shot down, they took out one of my drones, my 17 was shot to pieces, I managed to drop my ords and somehow put the plane down. Now that action made 20 mins seem like 20 seconds. I bet for them too.
The simple fact is anything that makes it better for bomber sticks is going to make it that much better for fighters sticks and the game itself. The more strategy, tactics, and finesse in the game the better.
I could care less what my actions have on a the virtual war.
Anything that takes away and eliminates one teams ability to play the game is not good for gameplay, especially a game that is not about war, but of combat.
I agree that hording bases is not very interesting
I am glad you enjoy taking out fighters in your bombers, as you should.
The problem I see with more strategy, is that AH as we know it moves from being a sandbox type of game with focus on combat, to a game in which the focus is not combat, but preventing combat. They are 2 seperate ideas and in an online world, without very strict and limiting rules the 2 can not exist together. I would imagine rules involving how many people can take off from a base, time limit between flights, available ord/plane, so on and so forth. Granted I've thought in the past it might be more interesting to have battle over a city and not an airfield which might be more of a compromise. Back in the day you could destroy fuel as to limit a country to only 25%. This was done away with because people were logging on finding all the bases where porked, all the time, severly limiting their ability to fight yes, but also their fun. Which in the end is all about what a game should be about, fun.
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I dont understand how people can say the game is not about winning/defeating the "enemy"..
Im sure there are people who want nothing more than a sub 5 min flight to a massive furball where they can blaze away all day long.. but saying that is the purpose of the game is just as "wrong" as saying the purpose is to only take bases..
I have alot more fun grouping up with 10/12 guys and trying to take DEFENDED bases.. etc etc.. than taking off, flying into a tracer orgy, getting a kill, or not.. getting shot down and doing it over...
I think the lack of .. or complicated implementation of strat significance is a major factor in the retarded way people take bases/try and win.. I.E. suicide lanc runs at 2k over bases..
I understand the sequence of events required to make a difference using strat attacks.
but in a game where getting missions together that consist of more than 5 or 6 people is relatively rare.. organizing a systematic series of strikes required to effectively "use strat" is far more complex and involves way more people participating that is common in the game... you would need a mission attacking the city, another attacking strat of choice, then a 3rd attacking the airbase..
who is going to go though organizing and participating in all of that.. when you can achieve the same outcome with 3 people running suicide attacks with bombers...
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If attacking strat had the same immediate effect as divebombing lancasters into a mass of hangars, you'd have divebombing lancasters doing the same thing they've always done, and gameplay wouldn't change a bit.
I know it sounds neat, but people look for the path of least resistance, and a complex strat system would be just as overlooked as the current setup.
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The key is ... you have to level the city(s) first ... City(s) supply strats ... take out the City(s) and the strats won't be resupplied.
Then when you level the grunt strat ... any troops that are disabled on airfields for that country are rendered useless for up to 2 hours.
The whole concept of 'strat' is to initiate attacks on vital resources to deny the enemy the potential to fight back.
In other words, a regular scale of attack on vital resources should be more efficient than pushing every enemy field encountered during advance with humongous numbers of planes, and gaining local airsuperiority with a 1:1 attrition scale.
The reality is, it isn't.
Going after the strats does something to the game, except the overall efficiency of hitting a strat target is so low that people would rather use all that manpower in hitting individual airfields on a tactical scale.
It has three tiers to make it effective ...
City -> Strat -> Airfield strat.
If they are leveled in that order ... you have made a difference and if you keep the City(s) leveled, it will continue to make a difference ... and then you will get noticed and you would probably see all sorts of "bomber" killers in the air.
The 'tiers', and the effective downtime, is the main problem here.
A bomber group successfully makes it deep inside an enemy territory to level the enemy city.
By the time they actually return alive, and then up another bomb run to go hit the strats this time, the city is starting to up again.
By the time that bomber group hits the strats, returns, and then gets ready to hit individual fields, both the city and the strats are back up.
So, this time, you actually make three bomber groups and go hit the city, the individual strat, and the field all at the same time... and now, since your mission has pulled out so many people from flying active fighter duty, that your whole front is pushed back.
Just leveling a strat (such as Grunts), for all intents and purposes, does nothing ... except help your "rank" and that is the only reason why people spend as much time as they do leveling those places. Their intent is not to hurt the enemy ... it's to bolster their l337 rank.
No arguments there.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I don't.
Can you please do not fake quotes? I never said or meant that.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
A bomber group successfully makes it deep inside an enemy territory to level the enemy city.
By the time they actually return alive, and then up another bomb run to go hit the strats this time, the city is starting to up again.
Not at all.
City buildings have a invariable downtime of 3 hours. Once the buff group has landed, it will be still down for app. 2 1/2 hours. (On our small maps, no return flight should take more than 30mins in any case.)
If they have managed to have completely leveled the city, the strat targets stay down for 2h
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
If attacking strat had the same immediate effect as divebombing lancasters into a mass of hangars, you'd have divebombing lancasters doing the same thing they've always done, and gameplay wouldn't change a bit.
I know it sounds neat, but people look for the path of least resistance, and a complex strat system would be just as overlooked as the current setup.
Its a different type of stick that goes after a strat. That and flying that long at low altitude would probably be suicidal. Being in a bomber that low without fighter coverage not only slows you down but you cant use your defensive guns to full advantage.
My guess is the same guys bombing strats will still be bombing strats if the game was changed. And the same guys defending them would be the same guys defending them. There is a small cohort of guys I usually see defending strats. I dont think that would change all that much. Truth is most folks playing this game are young and they dont have the patience for such long flights. Thats why there is so much air at 25,000', its because very few have the patience to climb that high.
I hope they either place some importance on the strats or just take them totally out of the game. You can have both strategy and combat at the same time. Ive been flying with the Bishops and weve won quite a few wars after we organized into somthing resembleing a man with a plan.
And I could go into the game now and see every strat at 100% because nobody is attacking them. I'd rather see them taken out of the game completly then have this silly policy in effect.
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Originally posted by Fariz But all those changes made AH a sterile environment stratwise. It does not require much of teamplay, planning and efforts anymore. [/B]
Fariz, great to see you, and you're right.
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Hey fariz! nice to see you!:)
Anything that encourages more buffs is alright in my book. I really enjoy shooting down buffs.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Truth is most folks playing this game are young and they dont have the patience for such long flights. Thats why there is so much air at 25,000', its because very few have the patience to climb that high.
This is one of the most accurate observations I've seen.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The 'tiers', and the effective downtime, is the main problem here.
A City building takes 250 lbs to destroy it.
It is down for 3 hours and can be resupplied *
* Each drop of convoy or train supplies on damaged city targets reduces the 3 hour downtime by 30 minutes. Each drop of player supplies reduces the downtime by 15 minutes.
Take out the whole City and supplies to factories can be stopped for up to 3 hours.
I don't think that the strat system was built for just one bomber group to be responsible for taking out the city(s) and then the strat(s) and then the strat(s) at a field.
When I was with the MAW, we use to team up with a couple of other squads and attack the targets, with proper timing, to make sure that they were hit in succession and in the right order to make it effective ... and it did work.
There is a system in place and it does work ... like I said before ... maybe most don't know/understand the system.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
A City building takes 250 lbs to destroy it.
It is down for 3 hours and can be resupplied *
* Each drop of convoy or train supplies on damaged city targets reduces the 3 hour downtime by 30 minutes. Each drop of player supplies reduces the downtime by 15 minutes.
I might add that there are actually no routine AI convoys resupplying cities in current strat system - If left alone, buildings will stay down for 3 hours.
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Originally posted by storch
you may dismiss the EW and MW resets as frauds they are typically done by the 5th SFD SOAR squad or The Hired Guns squad and they do so when everyone else is sleeping. the reason it's not one per day is that if even one defender ups they are completely impotent to take a base.
The S.O.A.R.'s special weapon....
(http://www.fototime.com/24784734E056C6A/standard.jpg)
Hey, at least it's not sharks with laser beams on their heads! :noid
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I think I'll get on tonight, organize a few Strat Bombing raids and Announce it on 200 for all the world to see, just to see if the enemy will consider launching a defense.
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Originally posted by Fariz
AH
. It has HQs,
.
agree with that,massive HQ raids and defend against ussed to best fun, now is too eassy to resup, and waste of time trying:what for new bombers were were modeled ?! HQ sould have 20-30 min downtime without resup option, to ecourage players attack and defend it,