Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on September 14, 2007, 09:40:31 AM
-
I was browsing a Russian aviation site and happened across this. I left it in context but if you read it it clearly shows that the russians (like the US in the PAC) actually suggested the frontal (HO) attack as the preferred strategy in some circumstances...
Separate from game play issues...the reality is that the frontal attack was a legitimate tactic in WW2.
During the trials, Institute specialists simulated aerial combat between a Bf 109F and a Russian Yak-1 (No. 0511), and worked out recommendations for Red Army Air Forces flight personnel. It turned out that the Soviet fighter had more chances to- win the greater the altitude. If the Me 109F was superior close to the ground and head-on attacks were recommended to our pilots then, at an altitude of 3000 meters, the chances were even and at 5000 meters, the Yak allegedly outperformed its adversary in speed and maneuverability. In other words, the suggestion was for pilots to draw German fighters to high altitudes.
Alas, these recommendations did not reflect the true state of affairs. From German materials and test results obtained in Britain, it turned out that the Bf 109F with a DB 60IN engine had a maximum speed of 597-600 km/h16 at an altitude of 6000 meters, rather than at the 552 km/h registered at the Air Forces Scientific Research Institute. It meant that the Messerschmitt surpassed all domestic fighters here, the series-produced MiG-3 included. But, it is quite clear why principal attention in the Soviet Union was paid to enemy fighter performance near the ground. It was just there where the main battles of the first phase of war took place and our aircraft designers were required urgently to improve the flight performance of domestic aircraft at low altitudes.
source (http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg.pl?nav=ru11&page=bf109f)
-
Nice website you have found - thank you.
I am not surprised that HO's is suggested in real life, if testing shows it is to your advantage under the given circumstances. After all - its about optimizing chances of survival.
In our virtual life though - it is a boring tactic which don't bring any pleasure to the fight (for me anyway).
-
You guys are funny. Valid tactic. TV said, Allies recommended :rofl Do you have any idea what war is about? You said they said HO was a valid tactic right? Guess what, those are the same people clearing mine fields using their own troops. Once in the army, you are just a number. The war is won by eliminating the enemy's numbers or producing more numbers than the other guy. If you could disable 1 German plane by going HO with it, do you think it mattered to the generals if you lost your life doing it? If they could produce planes and pilots faster than Germany, that was a valid tactic. It was valid for Russia. Not for the pilot.
News flash. WWII is over and this is a game. WWII tactics are not an excuse
-
Originally posted by dedalos
WWII is over and this is a game.
This whole time I thought I was controlloing the destiny of some poor pilot in a nation connected via a bend in the space continuum.
Now you tell me this is just a game?!?!?!!!!
-
Don't forget that this same country would send ten soldiers into battle with only one rifle between them and expect the others to keep picking up that same rifle after it's holder died. The Russians did not care if their pilots died in the HO.
-
Originally posted by Xargos
Don't forget that this same country would send ten soldiers into battle with only one rifle between them and expect the others to keep picking up that same rifle after it's holder died. The Russians did not care if their pilots died in the HO.
not saying i'm racist...... but i kinda agree. russains knew no pain, all they did was just do banzai charges until their enenmy ran out of bullets and got overrun.
-
Ever since the first air combat in world war 1 it has been accepted that when you are attacked from above the only valid option is to turn into your attacker. Sometimes that turns into a head on pass and sometimes not. I dont see anything wrong with shooting head on if thats what you want to do. In other situations it probably is a good indication that someone lacks the knowledge or experience to get any other shot.
-
Here's the thinking of most people who HO.
I have guns pointing to the front of my plane. Enemy planes within range, enemy plane in gunsight. Pull trigger.
They really don't care the orientation of that enemy plane... they just see a target in a gun sight.
You really think they flew all that way to do nothing but HO??? Then turn and show them your six... if they don't shoot you, you know they are fulltime HO'ers, if you end up in the tower, well...
-
yawn.................
-
Originally posted by Chalenge
In other situations it probably is a good indication that someone lacks the knowledge or experience to get any other shot.
While that may hold true in AH, it didn't in real life. Whether we like to admit it or not, head on shots were a valid and often used tactic by real fighter pilots.
For example, by the time Richard Bong reached 21 kills, half of those kills were from head on shots he did. These weren't head on shots he was forced into taking but a tactic he willingly engaged in.
ack-ack
-
In real life the bullets didn't hit 1-2sec after the HO merge.
The online flying experience is defined by lag.
-
Dedalos,
thank you for your lecture about what war is and how it is won and all...
But Sir, I would much prefer you spend your time teaching me to become a better AH2 pilot :)
-
Originally posted by titanic3
not saying i'm racist...... but i kinda agree. russains knew no pain, all they did was just do banzai charges until their enenmy ran out of bullets and got overrun.
You have read too many German general accounts, and not enough others.
- oldman
-
Hoing is not a Valid tactic.In the Pacific then Americans did have an advantage vs the Jap fighters .Americans did HO,Not often but vs the weak A6m's and what now it was easy.Plus the f6f was one of the strongest birds in the air at that time.It could take the damage from a a6m hoing.But in the East vs German steal American pilots would be stupid to Ho say a 109 or 190 .Unlike in the game the German's would rape American fighters in the HO. German fighters were built stronger and had the advantage of canon.
Simply but Hoing is not a valid tactic. I know all you dweebs watching dogfights they said Hoing is a valid tatic.And im willing to bet you also thought that Ramming a ship in the game would think it. Hoing in the game is a lame move.It is not a tactic,It's dweebdome.
-
Originally posted by VansCrew1
Hoing is not a Valid tactic.In the Pacific then Americans did have an advantage vs the Japanese fighters
Fixed! :aok
-
Originally posted by lengro
Fixed! :aok
:lol I wondered how long it would take!
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
You have read too many German general accounts, and not enough others.
- oldman
Comon OM. The army is army. That is how they operate. Even the US did a similar thing trying to storm the small islands in the pacific. The kept sending the kids to their death trying to take a rock. They could have put enough cells on those islands to make them disappear from the map, but the objective was not to save the soldiers lives. It was to take the islands as fast as possible what ever the cost.
I m just saying that just because something was done in real life, it does not mean it was smart or valid or the best option. I cant see myself turning towards anything that has a cannon and a couple of machine guns even if I had more guns.
-
Originally posted by VansCrew1
Hoing is not a Valid tactic.In the Pacific then Americans did have an advantage vs the Jap fighters .Americans did HO,Not often but vs the weak A6m's and what now it was easy.Plus the f6f was one of the strongest birds in the air at that time.It could take the damage from a a6m hoing.But in the East vs German steal American pilots would be stupid to Ho say a 109 or 190 .Unlike in the game the German's would rape American fighters in the HO. German fighters were built stronger and had the advantage of canon.
Simply but Hoing is not a valid tactic. I know all you dweebs watching dogfights they said Hoing is a valid tatic.And im willing to bet you also thought that Ramming a ship in the game would think it. Hoing in the game is a lame move.It is not a tactic,It's dweebdome.
Then explain why the Abbeville Kids (JG26) routinely HO'd Allied bomber formations? :confused:
-
If I were in a plane that could be outurned, outclimbed, not pull -g, and was offered a 50/50 shot.... I'd take it..
-
Whether or not an HO is a valid tactic in the game (it can be on occasion, depending upon the situation), we should define what an HO actually is.
It isn't a front quarter shot. An HO is when both pilots have the ability to bring guns to bear on the enemy fighter.
This is an HO:
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/Ho-1.jpg)
This is not an HO:
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/No-Ho-2.jpg)
This is an HO:
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/Ho-2.jpg)
This is not an HO:
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/No-Ho-1.jpg)
Any questions?
Oh, and thanks to Platano for being that other guy...
My regards,
Widewing
-
Then explain why the Abbeville Kids (JG26) routinely HO'd Allied bomber formations?
No one complains about HOing bombers, that is probably the best tactic to take down buffs in AH. We're talking about fighters and no, it's not a valid tactic, its lame. If you aren't good enough to fly your plane to your opponents 6 and get a a shot, you shouldn't be playing, IMO.
-
HO It was used a lot by the German 190 on the east front it rushed the production of the Yak9T.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
Comon OM. The army is army. That is how they operate. Even the US did a similar thing trying to storm the small islands in the pacific. The kept sending the kids to their death trying to take a rock. They could have put enough cells on those islands to make them disappear from the map, but the objective was not to save the soldiers lives. It was to take the islands as fast as possible what ever the cost.
I m just saying that just because something was done in real life, it does not mean it was smart or valid or the best option. I cant see myself turning towards anything that has a cannon and a couple of machine guns even if I had more guns.
Until I read this, I wasn't going to comment. But, you need to either join the military for a few years, or you need to spend some time studying history.
They spent 5 days shelling the crap out of a rock called Iwojima. They sent in two divisions of marines. thats all, just 2 divisions. They had one other division still on board the transports but refused to send them iin, even tho the marines were getting the crap shot out of em.
That was just the last major island landing.
It is also why the A-bomb was used, to limit friendly casualties and bring the war to a close.
In the 1940s they didn't have smart bombs. Bombing was a chancy thing, so it required troops on the ground to do the hard part, root out the enemy and kill him.
Lots of men died, lots of Officers died leading their men, and lots of Generals died directing the fight. ON ALL SIDES.
I don't know what you mean by cells but you are not well read in history or ww2.
BTW IwoJima saved a lot of lives after those marines captured it. Maybe thats why it was worth the cost.
< salute >
BnB
-
Originally posted by Chalenge
Ever since the first air combat in world war 1 it has been accepted that when you are attacked from above the only valid option is to turn into your attacker. Sometimes that turns into a head on pass and sometimes not. I dont see anything wrong with shooting head on if thats what you want to do. In other situations it probably is a good indication that someone lacks the knowledge or experience to get any other shot.
I think what often frustrates people is that this is a game, and the first priority with any game is that the game play strike a balance between fun and challenging. When the front quadrant is opened up like it is in AH it creates an environment where you really need not fly for kill. Simple jousting suffices. And that takes away from game play, at least imo. You need not incorporate any air combat tactics in achieving monster kill numbers. Simply joust. Which is really a shame as the game could be much better than that if it forced people to actually fly for a kill.
It may or may not be historical. That's really a red herring as AH, and the games that came before it, have very little to do with anything historical. I would agree though, as long as game play allows for it there certainly isn't anything wrong with jousting, or just taking a front quarter shot for that matter. Whether it enhances or lessens game play is an entirely subjective discussion.
-
Originally posted by Xargos
Don't forget that this same country would send ten soldiers into battle with only one rifle between them and expect the others to keep picking up that same rifle after it's holder died. The Russians did not care if their pilots died in the HO.
This is an ignorant comment....
Experienced combat pilots were a valuable commodity. If you read the text HO's were considered a valid tactic under situations of engagement were they felt the pilot had a less then 50/50 chance of winning. At higher alts they felt they had an even fight and tactics changed....
This is not encouraging or defending a HO in this game. It is however realizing that alot of this HO whining is from guys who fly T&B rides and whine when a guy doesnt want to T&B a spitty or nikki in a 190D....
-
This is now my 3rd AH Tour, I now collide less, do not take HO'S, nor try to create them. All of these things were by choice & practice, not the enemy cons I am flying against. The Spits I fly are allergic to bullets! With definition and pictures provided above, are we discussing head-ons or front quarter merges? I say that you do not have to accept either situation completely. Is it not possible to turn? Dive? Climb? If you have good SA, you have all the time in the world to plan your merge. The only exception I can think of are furballs (basically anything goes when your in the bowl) or an enemy con has crept up on you and you don't see them until they are very close. I would ask myself how did this enemy con get close enough to the front quarter (or worse yet the nose) of your fighter? SA good? ACM good? If not practice, I do and it works. I am by no means one of the best, but will keep practicing towards that goal. You will end up having a whole heck of lot more fun, and whole hell of lot less frustration when you revise your tactics with experience gained from your dogfights.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Then explain why the Abbeville Kids (JG26) routinely HO'd Allied bomber formations? :confused:
Hoing bombers is different from hoing fighters.If a German wanted to take a bomber out fast shoot him in the face.That is a logical ho vs bombers but hoing fighters is not logical.
-
Originally posted by VansCrew1
Hoing bombers is different from hoing fighters.If a German wanted to take a bomber out fast shoot him in the face.That is a logical ho vs bombers but hoing fighters is not logical.
Agreed.:aok
-
Originally posted by bombnbail
Until I read this, I wasn't going to comment. But, you need to either join the military for a few years, or you need to spend some time studying history.
They spent 5 days shelling the crap out of a rock called Iwojima. They sent in two divisions of marines. thats all, just 2 divisions. They had one other division still on board the transports but refused to send them iin, even tho the marines were getting the crap shot out of em.
That was just the last major island landing.
It is also why the A-bomb was used, to limit friendly casualties and bring the war to a close.
In the 1940s they didn't have smart bombs. Bombing was a chancy thing, so it required troops on the ground to do the hard part, root out the enemy and kill him.
Lots of men died, lots of Officers died leading their men, and lots of Generals died directing the fight. ON ALL SIDES.
I don't know what you mean by cells but you are not well read in history or ww2.
BTW IwoJima saved a lot of lives after those marines captured it. Maybe thats why it was worth the cost.
< salute >
BnB
As the son of an Iwo Jima Vet (who was in that floating reserve) I can tell you that they DID hit the island on third day.
My father was in the 3rd Division, 28th Marines, Company I and they took the center of the island where the air fields were (which was the purpose of the invasion).
I remember my dad telling me about a wounded B-29 landing before the island was totally secured, saving that crews lives.
Ded's argument falls apart with Hiroshima and Nagasaki where we saved an estimated 1,000,000 lives vs an invasion.
PS I get into HO situation cause my eyesight is not what it used to be and in the game sometimes I mistake a on coming target as going away until I am too close to change.
-
Originally posted by Xargos
Don't forget that this same country would send ten soldiers into battle with only one rifle between them and expect the others to keep picking up that same rifle after it's holder died. The Russians did not care if their pilots died in the HO.
The HO was used frequently, in all theatres, by all sides. Period.
The F4F and F6F pilots often HO'd the Japanese planes. The Germans and American's used it frequently.
Only in AH is it a bad move....usually cried about by the LOSER....
See, in real life, no one had to suffer the LOSER on 200... :)
-
Originally posted by humble
This is an ignorant comment....
The TRUTH is not an ignorant comment. The Russian high command has never cared about the well being of any of their people.
-
Maybe - but that's a big leap to encouraging your forces to waste their lives futliey.
The ho is valid tactic if your plane is completely outperformed by the enemy.
-
The Russians took chances in battle because they knew they WOULD be shot once they returned if they didn't perform their duties.
My point is, using Russian tactics is not always productive to good health.
P.S. Most pilots in WWII never got the chance to learn the tactic we take for granted in this game because they died before they got the chance. I'm a lousy stick, but I don't use history as an excuse for my lack of skill.
-
My point is, using Russian tactics is not always productive to good health.
And exactly what part of WAR is productive to good health?
P.S. Most pilots in WWII never got the chance to learn the tactic we take for granted in this game because they died before they got the chance.
that is another dumb comment. By the Time the US became envolved in the war, most of the LW pilots were seasoned veterans and so the IJN IJA, as well as Great Britian, France and Italy.
US trained pilots were recruited prior to the US envolvment.
Remember, many of the ACM you see here were developed over a long time. Only until pilots began to put this into book form was any concise reference avaliable. Until then it was word of mouth, one pilot teaching another.
It was common practice in all Air Forces for rookie pilots to be paired with seasoned veterans (even in the bombers), it saved lives and gave the rookie someone to learn from.
BnB
-
How can you say it's a dumb commit when you just said it yourself that the tactics where developed over a period of time? Many pilots only got a few hours of actual combat training in the aircraft before they where sent into battle. You make it sound as if they had several years.
The Germans lost many of their good pilots in BoB.
And what's with the shades?
-
Sweet2th :lol
-
Originally posted by Xargos
The TRUTH is not an ignorant comment. The Russian high command has never cared about the well being of any of their people.
And what makes you think you have a clue as to what the "truth" is? Everything you've written in this thread is a half truth....
1) All armies "shot" people who failed to perform. You want to understand military discipline, go back to the code of conduct for a Roman Centurion. No question that the Russians shot people and that Stalin was a butcher...but don't confuse that with tactics. The Russians were very well led and had excellent tactics as the war progressed. They're poor leadership was early in the war was the result of the purge before the war. Two of the best US generals in history had the same "disregard" for human lives....Grant and Patton. Your comments on this topic are ignorant and show a lack of understanding of both history and military realities.
2) All military aviators were considered elite and a lot was invested in them. The Russians and the Germans both had a number of veterans of the Spanish civil war. Tactics evolved around the combination of plane and national personality. The Germans favored the Bolke doctrine and really pioneered E fighting. The Japanese viewed aerial combat as an extension of samurai combat and evolved planes and tactics based on the concept of the duel. The Italians were among the best acrobatic pilots in the world and there planes and tactics reflected that. As these contrasting styles clashed tactics were refined for each. Frontal attacks were used whenever they made tactical sense as a matter of doctrine...
3) Sim pilots have the advantage of no real death and potentially thousands of hours of combat time. The tactics are no better but the "experience" factor actually has some merit. However look at flying in an FSO or scenario as a more realistic indicator of true pilot ability and tactics...
-
Originally posted by bombnbail
Until I read this, I wasn't going to comment. But, you need to either join the military for a few years, or you need to spend some time studying history.
They spent 5 days shelling the crap out of a rock called Iwojima. They sent in two divisions of marines. thats all, just 2 divisions. They had one other division still on board the transports but refused to send them iin, even tho the marines were getting the crap shot out of em.
That was just the last major island landing.
It is also why the A-bomb was used, to limit friendly casualties and bring the war to a close.
In the 1940s they didn't have smart bombs. Bombing was a chancy thing, so it required troops on the ground to do the hard part, root out the enemy and kill him.
Lots of men died, lots of Officers died leading their men, and lots of Generals died directing the fight. ON ALL SIDES.
I don't know what you mean by cells but you are not well read in history or ww2.
BTW IwoJima saved a lot of lives after those marines captured it. Maybe thats why it was worth the cost.
< salute >
BnB
:rofl I have. I spent a couple of years in the military. Do I qualify to have an opinion now? Do I need history lessons? I dont think so. You see, IwoJima was not the only rock they tried to take. I said nothing about that rock. Maybe the only one you know off? :rofl
You completely missed my point here. Here it is again. Just because something was done in real life, it does not mean it was smart or the right thing to do or . . . . . Now, take that in to a game and you can be completly off, since a game is, well, just a game.
As far as high ranked officers dieing, please. Maybe by accident. Their job is to sit in the back and tell you why you need to go die.
-
Originally posted by Capz
No one complains about HOing bombers, that is probably the best tactic to take down buffs in AH. We're talking about fighters and no, it's not a valid tactic, its lame. If you aren't good enough to fly your plane to your opponents 6 and get a a shot, you shouldn't be playing, IMO.
Here's one for your commercial reel Waffle.
Outta net a ton of new players like this!
:rolleyes:
-
Humble, you're reading too much into what I was trying to say. I was referring to the Purge, just couldn't remember it's name.
P.S. Sherman was more of a war criminal then Grant. :p
-
The HO was used in WW2. AH is a WW2 air combat simulator. A HO is a valid tactic in AH because you can. Is it a good tactic?
Be a teacher. You don't need to verbally shame people from using the HO.... just shoot them down, they will learn.
Gunner
-
I am amazed how many times it has to be said that it requires 2 to make an HO!!! If you don't like HO's, DON'T FLY HO:s!!! They are easy to avoid.
But if and when you decide to HO, don't whine when you get beat by an "invalid tactic" :p
If you HO, never expect a cold merge from the opponent... unless you are at DA and and have agreed on such.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
:rofl I have. I spent a couple of years in the military. Do I qualify to have an opinion now? Do I need history lessons? I dont think so. You see, IwoJima was not the only rock they tried to take. I said nothing about that rock. Maybe the only one you know off? :rofl
You completely missed my point here. Here it is again. Just because something was done in real life, it does not mean it was smart or the right thing to do or . . . . . Now, take that in to a game and you can be completly off, since a game is, well, just a game.
As far as high ranked officers dieing, please. Maybe by accident. Their job is to sit in the back and tell you why you need to go die.
Had a tough time in the military I see, by your replies I can only assume you really hated the military and couldn't wait to get out. Wonder what the discharge title was:rofl
-
Originally posted by dedalos
:rofl I have. I spent a couple of years in the military. Do I qualify to have an opinion now? Do I need history lessons? I dont think so. You see, IwoJima was not the only rock they tried to take. I said nothing about that rock. Maybe the only one you know off? :rofl
You completely missed my point here. Here it is again. Just because something was done in real life, it does not mean it was smart or the right thing to do or . . . . . Now, take that in to a game and you can be completly off, since a game is, well, just a game.
As far as high ranked officers dieing, please. Maybe by accident. Their job is to sit in the back and tell you why you need to go die.
Well, yes you have an opinion, and yes, you can post it here.
Do you need history lessons? I'll leave that up to you, because we didn't try to take those "rocks" we did take them, at the expense of a lot of guys who thought the price was worth it.
More than one high ranking officer died doing their job, and it was not an accident. How do I know, well I read history, and I don't just read the american version of history. More than one side to a story and often as not, the stories differ only in the telling.
This is a game, while we do make comparisons to real life, don't belittle the lives lost in the real war. Without the military no nation is safe, no people can be free, and no government can rule.
Sorry for high jacking your thread. carry on.
< salute >
-
Originally posted by Xargos
Humble, you're reading too much into what I was trying to say. I was referring to the Purge, just couldn't remember it's name.
P.S. Sherman was more of a war criminal then Grant. :p
No question Stalin was up there with Gengis Khan as a butcher, I also dont disagree that the soviets used people to stop bullets an awful lot. However the elite guards units where well taken care of and had the best training and equipment. The poiny I was trying to mkae is that a plane and pilot is a valuable commodity. The use of a HO as a tactic was based on best percentages not callousness.....didnt mean to over react:)....
-
Wow, your inability to understand what you read can only be matched by BoxBoy
Originally posted by bombnbail
Well, yes you have an opinion, and yes, you can post it here.
Do you need history lessons? I'll leave that up to you, because we didn't try to take those "rocks" we did take them, at the expense of a lot of guys who thought the price was worth it.
Well, duh. You said the islands were not taken and that the guys that fought there did not thing it was worth it? I am really confused now. What does that have to do with what I said? It was just an example but you fail to see the point. Weather they thought it was worth it or not, maybe it was not the right approach may be it was. What I am saying is, you cannot apply that to a game. Don't wory though. I m sure ill have to repeat it again on the next page.
More than one high ranking officer died doing their job, and it was not an accident
lol, wow, more than one eh?
This is a game, while we do make comparisons to real life, don't belittle the lives lost in the real war.
How did I do that?
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Had a tough time in the military I see, by your replies I can only assume you really hated the military and couldn't wait to get out. Wonder what the discharge title was:rofl
Not really :D See your assumptions are wrong. I grew up in Greece, so I had to join the Greek army for 2 years. However, I did it after I was done with college. It is a little different when you are 26 and not 17 or 18, and they know that. After the first 40 days of training, it was like a long vacation, so it was a good experience.
Now, how did you figure all that from what I wrote is beyond me.
-
Legit?? So is jumping in the ocean off a sinking boat into a bunch of sharks... if there is no other way out.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
Not really :D See your assumptions are wrong. I grew up in Greece, so I had to join the Greek army for 2 years. However, I did it after I was done with college. It is a little different when you are 26 and not 17 or 18, and they know that. After the first 40 days of training, it was like a long vacation, so it was a good experience.
Now, how did you figure all that from what I wrote is beyond me.
Really not too difficult, you have a VERY low opinion of the military tactics used in WWII and of military tactics in general.
You seem to think a commander will waste his troops just for the fun of it or because it is "easy" to do it that way.
But now that you have said you are European I can understand the rant since MOST (not all) European youths find America replusive (jealousy I suspect). It is unfortunate however that your college education has failed you so miserably, in the area of history (since Greece was occupied by the Nazis).
-
When I started reading this thread, I was going to post a thoughtful reply. After reading the whole thing, I'm gonna stay out of it.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Really not too difficult, you have a VERY low opinion of the military tactics used in WWII and of military tactics in general.
You seem to think a commander will waste his troops just for the fun of it or because it is "easy" to do it that way.
But now that you have said you are European I can understand the rant since MOST (not all) European youths find America replusive (jealousy I suspect). It is unfortunate however that your college education has failed you so miserably, in the area of history (since Greece was occupied by the Nazis).
OHHHH MY GOD, GREECE WAS OCCUPIED BY NAZIS????:O HOW COME NO ONE TOLD ME:furious :furious
Wow, you sir must be a fine product of the edumacational system :rofl
I take it you have been in Europe for some time and got to interact with those evil kids there? I remember when I was there, all we talked about was how jealous we were of the US and how repulsive we found it.
People that think like you really puzzle me :confused:
-
Originally posted by dedalos
OHHHH MY GOD, GREECE WAS OCCUPIED BY NAZIS????:O HOW COME NO ONE TOLD ME:furious :furious
Wow, you sir must be a fine product of the edumacational system :rofl
I take it you have been in Europe for some time and got to interact with those evil kids there? I remember when I was there, all we talked about was how jealous we were of the US and how repulsive we found it.
People that think like you really puzzle me :confused:
No I don't have to go there, you are doing a fine job of demonstrating my point. Your smart mouth and disrespect are all that is necessary:rofl :rofl :rofl
-
Actually boxy he speaks out both sides of his mouth. He has no concept of history or military tactics and doctrine, nor does he speak the truth about his back ground.
His comment of "the army is the army" says he has no clue. His next comment on what they do speaks loudly of never having suffered combat training. Followed up with the last 2 posts and you get a guy who is probably mid to late teens, never been in the military, never bothered with history. And no respect for those who gave their lives so that he can come here and post his opinion.
Go figure.
-
I <3 HO
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Really not too difficult, you have a VERY low opinion of the military tactics used in WWII and of military tactics in general.
You seem to think a commander will waste his troops just for the fun of it or because it is "easy" to do it that way.
But now that you have said you are European I can understand the rant since MOST (not all) European youths find America replusive (jealousy I suspect). It is unfortunate however that your college education has failed you so miserably, in the area of history (since Greece was occupied by the Nazis).
No offense, but are you high? What do you base your opinion on?
Oh wait thats just my "jealousy" of your American way of life :rofl
-
Originally posted by bombnbail
Actually boxy he speaks out both sides of his mouth. He has no concept of history or military tactics and doctrine, nor does he speak the truth about his back ground.
His comment of "the army is the army" says he has no clue. His next comment on what they do speaks loudly of never having suffered combat training. Followed up with the last 2 posts and you get a guy who is probably mid to late teens, never been in the military, never bothered with history. And no respect for those who gave their lives so that he can come here and post his opinion.
Go figure.
And you have?
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
No offense, but are you high? What do you base your opinion on?
Oh wait thats just my "jealousy" of your American way of life :rofl
Hmm if your location info is correct you ARE NOT a European, however if I were you I would speak more kindly of the Americans since without us in 1948 your country doesn't come into existance:O
-
biggest bullcrap ever we applied for statehood the European nations voted, we got a country i dont see america anywhere in israel's history in 1948:rofl
but seriosuly keep thinking that. America #1!:lol
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Hmm if your location info is correct you ARE NOT a European, however if I were you I would speak more kindly of the Americans since without us in 1948 your country doesn't come into existance:O
Very embarrassing, Boxboy, proof we didn't need that the Ugly American lurks just beneath the surface of many of us. This would be a really good time to let this thread drop.
- oldman
-
Originally posted by bombnbail
Actually boxy he speaks out both sides of his mouth. He has no concept of history or military tactics and doctrine, nor does he speak the truth about his back ground.
His comment of "the army is the army" says he has no clue. His next comment on what they do speaks loudly of never having suffered combat training. Followed up with the last 2 posts and you get a guy who is probably mid to late teens, never been in the military, never bothered with history. And no respect for those who gave their lives so that he can come here and post his opinion.
Go figure.
Simply amazing, so, so far we have:
he speaks out both sides of his mouth
He has no concept of history or military tactics and doctrine
nor does he speak the truth about his back ground.
has no clue
never having suffered combat training
is probably mid to late teens,
never been in the military,
never bothered with history
no respect for those who gave their lives (This is probably the only thing I took offense on)
you have a VERY low opinion of the military tactics
You seem to think a commander will waste his troops just for the fun of it or because it is "easy" to do it that way
European youths find America replusive (jealousy I suspect)
college education has failed you so miserably
Greece was occupied by the Nazis
Had a tough time in the military
really hated the military and couldn't wait to get out.
Did I forget anything? :rofl I sneeze and my posts get deleted but hey, you are on subject and not attacking anyone so I can see why HT lets you guys go on :rofl
Let me know when you are done. I'd like to take a shot at describing you, too.
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
Very embarrassing, Boxboy, proof we didn't need that the Ugly American lurks just beneath the surface of many of us. This would be a really good time to let this thread drop.
- oldman
I'm with ya on this one oldman. Kinda disappointing.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Hmm if your location info is correct you ARE NOT a European, however if I were you I would speak more kindly of the Americans since without us in 1948 your country doesn't come into existance:O
We actually had an embargo against Israel up until 1962 while we sold weapons to the Arabs all during that time. History is a wonderful thing if you take the time to read it. YMMV.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
Very embarrassing, Boxboy, proof we didn't need that the Ugly American lurks just beneath the surface of many of us. This would be a really good time to let this thread drop.
- oldman
Up urs Oldman I am tired of laying down for every country we have helped, and his answer about how his country was formed is just crap, ANY history book will tell you WE voted FIRST to admit them and if we hadn't NO other country would have followed.
Take your poor old embrarrased PC self and butt out.
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
We actually had an embargo against Israel up until 1962 while we sold weapons to the Arabs all during that time. History is a wonderful thing if you take the time to read it. YMMV.
ack-ack
You are right about history Ack-Ack, now look up how the US was spied on by Israel and also about the Communictions ship that was attacked by them, followed by an apology of how they "didn't know who we were". I was in the service in 1962 where you;)
-
Personally, I don't think the US, let alone any countries "help" people for the sake of helping. They do so, to protect assests, or protect interests. My history is a bit shakey, but I believe it took a direct attack on the US before they got into WW2. Fear of communism spreading for vietnam, probably same for Korea "domino theory." I think we know about current events as well. On the flip side, why has it taken so long to address darfor region, surely some good could have been done there...maybe some will if terrorist continue to try to move in. As nice as it is to think that countries like the U.S are the guardians of all that is good and that we fight wars to help people, in reality that is mostly propaganda. Now, I'm not saying I don't love my country, or support troops, or realize and apperciate the great sacrifices of so many to protect our countries assests, interests, and way of life. But after a war, and the spoils sorted, I don't think it's fair to go on and then expect everyone to say thank you for 50-100-200 years and bow down. That's like helping a guy who is getting mugged, getting is money instead of the mugger, than extorting him for money for years on end.....Of course the mugger might beat you, then you don't get the money, but continue to extort because you tried. All this to try to explain some really arrogant, rude, and cheap shotted postings here.
-
You go BoxBoy, first the European kids, then Israel, and now the US. Go get them big boy. Don't lay down any more. The time to stand up is now!!!!! WoooOOWOOOoooOOOooOOO!!!!!!
-
boxboy and his shadow bombnbail are nifty little trolls.
I'd say more, but the eagle does not hunt the fly.;)
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
I was in the service in 1962 where you;)
And? Nobody gives chit. You could be George Washington and it wouldn't matter. Only thing it matters in the game is how you are in the game. And that's were Oldman and Dedalos are giants in comparison to you. Both, in terms of skills and behavior.
-
Originally posted by FBplmmr
boxboy and his shadow bombnbail are nifty little trolls.
I'd say more, but the eagle does not hunt the fly.;)
Now here is a guy to be embarrassed for Oldman both embarrassed and asshamed to call an American, if indeed he is one:mad:
-
Originally posted by 2bighorn
And? Nobody gives chit. You could be George Washington and it wouldn't matter. Only thing it matters in the game is how you are in the game. And that's were Oldman and Dedalos are giants in comparison to you. Both, in terms of skills and behavior.
Thats exactly the point little punks like you don't give chit, wonder if the guys in Iraq think you should give a chit. Your so stupid that its beyond belief "only thing that matters is the game"
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Thats exactly the point little punks like you don't give chit, wonder if the guys in Iraq think you should give a chit. Your so stupid that its beyond belief "only thing that matters is the game"
You misunderstood. I've said I don't give a watermelon about you in particular. All the rest ain't your business anyways...
-
Originally posted by 2bighorn
You misunderstood. I've said I don't give a watermelon about you in particular. All the rest ain't your business anyways...
Oh well now that its clear :rofl :rofl :rofl I am really upset that you don't care about me :rofl :rofl :rofl
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Oh well now that its clear :rofl :rofl :rofl I am really upset that you don't care about me :rofl :rofl :rofl
Why don't you go and save the world, polish your medals or something, you know, do that important stuff...
-
so, ded, you didn't answer the question? Do you need a history lesson? and btw, degressing to name calling is more along the lines of a teenager. One that has no more to offer the discussion. Your rehitoric on the military speak of either a lack of knowledge or a lack of respect for those who ensure your right to your opinion. You also have, by your own words, expressed a missguided sense of history. Which tells me you do need a history lesson.
Your words are what I speak of, if you were trying to be funny or something it didn't come off that way.
-
He can't answer you Bomb he is a kid with no idea or clues, just child like praddle:cool:
-
:huh
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Thats exactly the point little punks like you don't give chit, wonder if the guys in Iraq think you should give a chit. Your so stupid that its beyond belief "only thing that matters is the game"
I have to apologize for Bighorn BoxBoy. He is only 13 with no experience in life what so ever. I on the other hand have no excuse since I am 16.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Up urs Oldman I am tired of laying down for every country we have helped, and his answer about how his country was formed is just crap, ANY history book will tell you WE voted FIRST to admit them and if we hadn't NO other country would have followed.
Take your poor old embrarrased PC self and butt out.
This thread was about a "stupid" aspect of a cartoon game...
The bill of rights gives you the right to this type of clueless diatribe, proving we can protect freedom of speech but not promote literacy or intelligent discourse. As others have noted your ignorance is showing....
-
BoxBoy im going to speak to you respectfully as much as i dont believe you diserve it, I have played this game for many years, and considering my backround i could have gone on many a "attention hunt" claiming he said she said he did etc... I have been offensivly belittled but the drivul that spews from your mouth is sad. You discount the story of a building of a nation in conflict. This I do not appreciate, as i do not of your vulgar attitude towards oldman, dedalos, and bighorn. You have no clue that your statements are contradictary. .....
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Up urs Oldman I am tired of laying down for every country we have helped, and his answer about how his country was formed is just crap, ANY history book will tell you WE voted FIRST to admit them and if we hadn't NO other country would have followed.
Take your poor old embrarrased PC self and butt out.
OK, Boxboy, I'm taking my poor old embrarrased PC self out of here. You can have the last word.
- oldman
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
BoxBoy im going to speak to you respectfully as much as i dont believe you diserve it, I have played this game for many years, and considering my backround i could have gone on many a "attention hunt" claiming he said she said he did etc... I have been offensivly belittled but the drivul that spews from your mouth is sad. You discount the story of a building of a nation in conflict. This I do not appreciate, as i do not of your vulgar attitude towards oldman, dedalos, and bighorn. You have no clue that your statements are contradictary. .....
:aok
-
This thread has tough me a lot. Big
to everyone that was not afraid to get their hands dirty and responded as they did.
It was interesting to see some of the people that got attacked here not say a word so that their virtual image would not get blemished and some that I considered friends just looked the other away.
-
I like you boxboy. You make me feel smart.
PS: Dedalos really is from Greece, and old.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
You are right about history Ack-Ack, now look up how the US was spied on by Israel and also about the Communictions ship that was attacked by them, followed by an apology of how they "didn't know who we were". I was in the service in 1962 where you;)
And your being in the service means exactly what?
My Father was in the service in the same time period as an Army officer and he would never have talked so stupidly and come across so arrogant and naive
Last I checked our history is fairly short compared to most of the world, and you come off like the rest of the world owes us a favor.
last I checked you do what's right because it's the best thing to do, not because you think you should get a cookie. I'd like to believe that this country is like that, although it's hard to believe considering some of the idiots we produce.
-
.s dedalos
-
Since you reference history often. The "I was in the service in 1962" comment struck a chord. Had to get out "Up Front" by Bill Mauldin cause it fit. The combat vets I've spoken to over the years would not act as you.
A couple of his Willie and Joe cartoons that speak to the antagonist in this thread.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Mauldin1.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/mauldin2.jpg)
-
As much as I hate to interupt someone when they're making a complete fool of themselves, I notice that the aircraft discussed in the initial post carried "only" 2 light machineguns, and a single centrally located cannon.
Now if they were talking Yak 9Ts and P-39s vs A8s with 30mm cannons, I would think they would have developed slightly different tactics initially. I would also imagine that many fighter pilots considered themselves superior to their enemy (whether or not this was a well-founded belief is moot), and that such aggressive flying and pressing for shots wasn't considered suicidal.
But, I only fly cartoon airplanes, and none of this really matters, except to make for some, eh, interesting discussions.
-
lol Guppy
-
I've always wondered why people will fly 5-10 minutes to an already capped base, drop from 10K, and then insisting on HO'ing me on take off. You better believe I'll take it:D They dont even come in on my 6. Apparently I can't shoot them or something :rolleyes: :rofl
-
Thanks for Kudos folks, since you all are so intelligent and so forth I will bow out. I have no intentions of apologizing for my service to my country or for that matter for history itself.
I made a point about Isreal which was valid it was not ment to take away from the folks who struggled to form that country but rather to salute my own for that action they took at the time, and derserved credit for it. It's too bad that 60 years later it is viewed as a worthless foot note to the Isrealis.
As far as Ded is concerned we just don't and never will I fear see eye to eye.
As for the rest of the commentators' you have a right to your opinions I just don't share them and thank God that there are others who see the world as I do. I am not going any further with this thing since it would only prove how far left we gone.
-
:huh
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Up urs Oldman I am tired of laying down for every country we have helped, and his answer about how his country was formed is just crap, ANY history book will tell you WE voted FIRST to admit them and if we hadn't NO other country would have followed.
Take your poor old embrarrased PC self and butt out.
Ouch. :(
Don't post drunk or stupid...or both.
BTW what is a 'boxboy'? A boy with a box? :D
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
As for the rest of the commentators' you have a right to your opinions I just don't share them and thank God that there are others who see the world as I do.
Dude you shouldn't even share your opinions.
-
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
:huh
your :huh 's are making me:noid
-
:aok
-
Originally posted by hubsonfire
Dude you shouldn't even share your opinions.
Go away Hub I would be hard put to take advice from you if I liked you:furious
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Go away Hub I would be hard put to take advice from you if I liked you:furious
So Boxboy, what exactly are the European youths like me, jealous of?
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
thank God that there are others who see the world as I do.
just goes to show that more than one village is missing its idiot.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by dedalos
So Boxboy, what exactly are the European youths like me, jealous of?
Ded Boxboy gives me this impression too, thank god i have met other americans with less of the "world owes us everything" attitude":(
Regards,
freezman(the jealous Isreali who's unaware of the history of his own nation and is not greatful enough for boxboy's america)
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
just goes to show that more than one village is missing its idiot.
ack-ack
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
-
:rofl :rofl :rofl I love to see the liberals go mad dog wild when someone stands up their PC world.
BTW Ded where do you live now?? (still in Greece?) not what your location info says:lol
Evenhiem I take it you think America should pull out of the middle east and leave you guys alone with NO support (like the Patriot missile batteries we put up in your home town to protect you). I guess after hearing your view point I agree with you we should leave you alone no trade, no help, no nothing (no parts for those nice f-16's :lol )
Yes I am an ugly american and there are alot more of us, but ever wonder what made us ugly? I am sure with what I have seen you don't really care, unless one us "spews" then you rush like sharks to blood in the water. BTW Evenhiem the first shot in our little spat was fired by YOU with your first post in this thread.
The next time you think to yourself "why doesn't America do something" come back and read this thread.
-
You are deeply dillusional and mal-informed, I never said I wanted america to leave mid east, i said your(you)type of redneck this is my land american persona is very very troubling,your are missinformed about everything I APPRECIATE AMERICAN SUPPORT for israel over the years, but the way you put it poor little israel wouldnt last a day if it wasnt for america, yes america sell us weapons and supports us diplomaticly. Do you know that weve defended ourselves with (American, Israeli and French) equipment since 1948. A country shaped by war not a war shaped by a country mind you. Thankfully no american i have met shares your world police attitude including but not limited to (Guppy,my squadies skatsr tango et.., bks, muppets, and most every other squad I have been with or gotten to know) but hey who am i to tell you not to assume.
Yes i may have posted first but only in your niave and presumptious reply about european youths.
(attempted to reply with class)
Freezman
-
The next time you think to yourself "why doesn't America do something" come back and read this thread
Im sorry but should i concieve that as a warning... i think ill be fine:)
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
You are deeply dillusional and mal-informed, I never said I wanted america to leave mid east, i said your(you)type of redneck this is my land american persona is very very troubling,your are missinformed about everything I APPRECIATE AMERICAN SUPPORT for israel over the years, but the way you put it poor little israel wouldnt last a day if it wasnt for america, yes america sell us weapons and supports us diplomaticly. Do you know that weve defended ourselves with (American, Israeli and French) equipment since 1948. A country shaped by war not a war shaped by a country mind you. Thankfully no american i have met shares your world police attitude including but not limited to (Guppy,my squadies skatsr tango et.., bks, muppets, and most every other squad I have been with or gotten to know) but hey who am i to tell you not to assume.
Yes i may have posted first but only in your niave and presumptious reply about european youths.
(attempted to reply with class)
Freezman
I see it's just "redneck" American's that you object to:O You have NO clue who I am or what I know about your country (suffice to say that I have been married to the same gal for over 40 years who comes from a Jewish back ground and had relatives on the "ship of the damned")
Yes I do find alot of critical folks from over in Europe (not that they are all wrong but the kids seem to carp on us just to be in fasion). I, like you am proud of my country and so, as you "have a right" to take offense.
I find however that many here in this country seem to think that being a partriot is distaseful and wrong minded (even feebleminded) and so, as you refer to anyone who stands up and rails about the unfair treatment as "rednecks" or worse.
I find you to be all things you accuse me of, the only difference is which country you favor.
The facts are that I have ALWAYS, till your posts, both respected and admired the Isrealis but am forming a new opinion now based your statements which I fear maybe universal over there.
BTW if you would like to meet some who feel as I do come visit us, but try to avoid "yuppyland" and meet the folks who do the work, fight the wars, do the dying, in short as you put it the "rednecks".
-
I guess the Greeks and Israelis should do some fighting and dying in order to gain your expertise?
-
Originally posted by hubsonfire
I guess the Greeks and Israelis should do some fighting and dying in order to gain your expertise?
You have to be one of the greatest pot stiring jerks I have ever seen, to take that out of context and post what you did.
Nice try tho I give it a 2
-
Hub's a liberal?
The only thing he's liberal about is putting butter on his deep fried bacon.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
I see it's just "redneck" American's that you object to:O You have NO clue who I am or what I know about your country (suffice to say that I have been married to the same gal for over 40 years who comes from a Jewish back ground and had relatives on the "ship of the damned")
Yes I do find alot of critical folks from over in Europe (not that they are all wrong but the kids seem to carp on us just to be in fasion). I, like you am proud of my country and so, as you "have a right" to take offense.
I find however that many here in this country seem to think that being a partriot is distaseful and wrong minded (even feebleminded) and so, as you refer to anyone who stands up and rails about the unfair treatment as "rednecks" or worse.
I find you to be all things you accuse me of, the only difference is which country you favor.
The facts are that I have ALWAYS, till your posts, both respected and admired the Isrealis but am forming a new opinion now based your statements which I fear maybe universal over there.
BTW if you would like to meet some who feel as I do come visit us, but try to avoid "yuppyland" and meet the folks who do the work, fight the wars, do the dying, in short as you put it the "rednecks".
Can you define patriot for me. I'm confused.
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
Can you define patriot for me. I'm confused.
Counfused:p nooooo not you Guppy your waaaaay to intellegent:eek:
-
You didn't answer the question :)
You threw it in your commentary again, kinda like the "I was in service" comment.
I'm wondering what it has to do with anything and what you base your definition of Patriot on as I'm guessing your definition and mine are probably not the same.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
BTW Ded where do you live now?? (still in Greece?) not what your location info says:lol
Hehe, you got me there. That was the second answer I expected to see. Now, please answer the question if you can. :rofl
What exactly am I jealous of?
Work with me please :D Don't make me guess
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
You didn't answer the question :)
You threw it in your commentary again, kinda like the "I was in service" comment.
I'm wondering what it has to do with anything and what you base your definition of Patriot on as I'm guessing your definition and mine are probably not the same.
I could tell by the tenor of your question that you didn't or wouldn't agree with anything I had to say.
Not sure if you are calling a liar about my military service but I can provide my DD214 if you are really interested ( I am sure your not).
Unlike evenhiem I doubt you care much about anything except trying to flame me to make yourself look good to either your squad or your buddies.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
Hehe, you got me there. That was the second answer I expected to see. Now, please answer the question if you can. :rofl
What exactly am I jealous of?
Work with me please :D Don't make me guess
heheh based on your repeated crys about it, it could be almost anything American I guess:D
Guess I really got your hot button there Ded:aok
-
Originally posted by dedalos
What exactly am I jealous of?
Freedom, you filthy, oppressed Communist. The rich, musky scent of freedom.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
heheh based on your repeated crys about it, it could be almost anything American I guess:D
Guess I really got your hot button there Ded:aok
Work with me please :rofl I need some info so I can pwn you better, lol. You see, according to you I am simple. I am 16 and hate the US. You on the other hand I find very interesting and I would like to understand what drives an idiot to try and be the best idiot he can be.
You said i would be jealous of anything American. Name one thing and I promise I will tell you why I am here. You may be surprised to how stupid your theory is.
Lets say that I am not 16 but close to 40 and have lived here longer than I have in Greece. Wouldn't it make sense to think that I cant be jealous of anything American since I have it? How can you be jealous of something you have? lol. You on the other hand have this need to hate every one else. I guess maybe that makes you feel better about who you are, I don't know. Care to share a bit about who you are, honestly?
In any case. Name one thing you think some 16 year old from Greece would be jealous of if you can. Remember, it has to be big enough to cause him to hate a country. Give it a try or hide behind a wall of text again :rofl
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
heheh based on your repeated crys about it, it could be almost anything American I guess:D
Guess I really got your hot button there Ded:aok
You aren't American, Boxboy, but I accept the idea of you being special, in that very special PC meaning of the word.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
I could tell by the tenor of your question that you didn't or wouldn't agree with anything I had to say.
Not sure if you are calling a liar about my military service but I can provide my DD214 if you are really interested ( I am sure your not).
Unlike evenhiem I doubt you care much about anything except trying to flame me to make yourself look good to either your squad or your buddies.
I'm not questioning your service, it was your need to throw it out there like it gave you more credibilty then anyone else that caught my attention. then it was throwing out the patriot bit, as if that gives you more credibilty to claim to be a patriot.
One has nothing to do with the other. As for caring about things, those that know me would disagree with you. As for impressing my squad or my buddies, again that's down the list of importance for me.
And you still didn't answer the question. Define a patriot.
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
Define a patriot.
Someone that agrees with BoxBoy, Duh!!!!!
:D
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
You have to be one of the greatest pot stiring jerks I have ever seen, to take that out of context and post what you did.
Nice try tho I give it a 2
Whew, someone said I was "one of the greatest pot stiring jerks they had ever seen".
Just wanna say, thanks Hub for taking the heat off me.
:D
Bronk
-
Originally posted by dedalos
Work with me please :rofl I need some info so I can pwn you better, lol. You see, according to you I am simple. I am 16 and hate the US. You on the other hand I find very interesting and I would like to understand what drives an idiot to try and be the best idiot he can be.
You said i would be jealous of anything American. Name one thing and I promise I will tell you why I am here. You may be surprised to how stupid your theory is.
Lets say that I am not 16 but close to 40 and have lived here longer than I have in Greece. Wouldn't it make sense to think that I cant be jealous of anything American since I have it? How can you be jealous of something you have? lol. You on the other hand have this need to hate every one else. I guess maybe that makes you feel better about who you are, I don't know. Care to share a bit about who you are, honestly?
In any case. Name one thing you think some 16 year old from Greece would be jealous of if you can. Remember, it has to be big enough to cause him to hate a country. Give it a try or hide behind a wall of text again :rofl
OK here we go, first I never said you were 16 or anything else like that I said your speech sounded like many "young Europeans" anyone younger than me is a "youth" and trust me you are MUCH younger than me.
As for jealous, you will NEVER be a native American since you were not born here (not that naturalized Americans are less American so don't go there at the end of this post) and perhaps that is what gets your goat.
Now as far as putting labels on me about what to hate or who or what my needs are, it looks like you are right down there in the same gutter you claim I am and just as ignorant etc etc etc as all of your fellow sharks have posted.
I am a natureal born American (1943 in Lansing, MI), served my country right out of high school (1961-1965) was in during the Cuban Missle Crisis and the beginning of outright Hostilies in Viet Nam. Later (after the service) started and operated my own business for a number of years until I retired a few years ago.
I tend to be conservative in politics, but believe that we STILL have the best country in the world, despite some very liberal swings of late (partly my generations fault since we started the Hippie movement)
I am not upset by folks getting on this board spouting off and couldn't care less what some the guys here think since I am opposed to almost ALL their positions on polictics and how the country should be run.
Ok that should give ya enough to pick apart for awhile.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
As for jealous, you will NEVER be a native American since you were not born here (not that naturalized Americans are less American so don't go there at the end of this post) and perhaps that is what gets your goat.
See, I told you were an idiot :rofl . So, the European youths hate America because they could never be native Americans? Are you for real? :rofl
Now, time for the bad news. You are not native American either are you?:rofl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
I'm not questioning your service, it was your need to throw it out there like it gave you more credibilty then anyone else that caught my attention. then it was throwing out the patriot bit, as if that gives you more credibilty to claim to be a patriot.
One has nothing to do with the other. As for caring about things, those that know me would disagree with you. As for impressing my squad or my buddies, again that's down the list of importance for me.
And you still didn't answer the question. Define a patriot.
You know Guppy guys like you crack me up, you debate by making some statement that you feel everyone agrees to (including your opponet) and then building on that.
Guess what you don't speak for everyone, and ALOT of guys I know think serving your country DOES speak about that individuals partriotism.
Living up there in Minn close to Canada I guess you would view the guys that ran to Canada to escape the draft as patriots, I do not.
"My country, love it or leave it" doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I think you have a right to object to the governments direction but NOT to the point that it is TREASON. ANY protest that give hope to the enemy and causes harm to our troops is not acceptable in my view.
So now you have my view of partriotism, and doubt anything you would say will change it, as I am sure my views will never change your thoughts.
-
Wow, can someone say Hi-Jack?
This is a thread about HO's as a tactic and turns into a political slugfest.
-
Originally posted by Tiger
Wow, can someone say Hi-Jack?
This is a thread about HO's as a tactic and turns into a political slugfest.
:rofl That thread ended a few pages ago. It was boring anyway. We have moved on to how stupid can you be. BoxBoy has the lead right now and I have the feeling he will be taking the trophy home :lol
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
You know Guppy guys like you crack me up, you debate by making some statement that you feel everyone agrees to (including your opponet) and then building on that.
Guess what you don't speak for everyone, and ALOT of guys I know think serving your country DOES speak about that individuals partriotism.
Living up there in Minn close to Canada I guess you would view the guys that ran to Canada to escape the draft as patriots, I do not.
Just when an opinion of someone couldn't get any lower.
Well.... the above post speaks for itself.
Bronk
-
Originally posted by dedalos
:rofl That thread ended a few pages ago. It was boring anyway. We have moved on to how stupid can you be. BoxBoy has the lead right now and I have the feeling he will be taking the trophy home :lol
In general I would agree but to be sure I would like to clarify something. What do you have against the fact that Greece was occupied by Nazi?
-
Originally posted by Vad
In general I would agree but to be sure I would like to clarify something. What do you have against the fact that Greece was occupied by Nazi?
Read the post I was responding to. The fact that Greece was occupied by the Nazi had nothing to do with what what he was talking about. Then again, my English is better than his so maybe he just could not get his idea across :rofl
So, to keep it simple. The fact that Greece was occupied by the Nazi was completely irrelevant to the conversation, and telling that to someone that never got to meet some of his family because of the Nazi occupation sounded like telling me that the ocean is wet.
Then again, maybe I read it wrong since this native American does not seem to have master the language yet, lol.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
Read the post I was responding to. The fact that Greece was occupied by the Nazi had nothing to do with what what he was talking about. Then again, my English is better than his so maybe he just could not get his idea across :rofl
So, to keep it simple. The fact that Greece was occupied by the Nazi was completely irrelevant to the conversation, and telling that to someone that never got to meet some of his family because of the Nazi occupation sounded like telling me that the ocean is wet.
Then again, maybe I read it wrong since this native American does not seem to have master the language yet, lol.
Ok, thanks. I just wanted to clarify. Anyway my English is below carpet, so that word game was beyond my understanding.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
You know Guppy guys like you crack me up, you debate by making some statement that you feel everyone agrees to (including your opponet) and then building on that.
Guess what you don't speak for everyone, and ALOT of guys I know think serving your country DOES speak about that individuals partriotism.
Living up there in Minn close to Canada I guess you would view the guys that ran to Canada to escape the draft as patriots, I do not.
"My country, love it or leave it" doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I think you have a right to object to the governments direction but NOT to the point that it is TREASON. ANY protest that give hope to the enemy and causes harm to our troops is not acceptable in my view.
So now you have my view of partriotism, and doubt anything you would say will change it, as I am sure my views will never change your thoughts.
Ahh, so long as I think as you do, act as you do, and respond as you do, then I'm a a patriot. But if I disagree with you or question my leaders, I'm treasonous.
Help me out here, just as an example. A Friend of mine who was a WW2 vet combat pilot, who was later shot down and was a POW for a year after flying combat for a year, was vehemently opposed to our going into Iraq. His comment was "That's not the type of country we are. We're not the aggressors!" (He has since passed away)
Was he a patriot or a traitor since he was vocal in his opposion. I'd just like a ruling on that, as he is one of my heros.
And this means?
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Damn those revolutionaries!
-
Originally posted by Bronk
Just when an opinion of someone couldn't get any lower.
Well.... the above post speaks for itself.
Bronk
Shrug as if I give (place your explicative), I have never cared much for your self serving smuggness either Bronk so I guess we are even.
If I put in a one liner everytime you said something I would have a hugh amount of posts also:cool:
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
If I put in a one liner everytime you said something I would have a hugh amount of posts also:cool:
Don't strain that already overtaxed hamster wheel there box, it couldn't keep up.
Bronk
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
Ahh, so long as I think as you do, act as you do, and respond as you do, then I'm a a patriot. But if I disagree with you or question my leaders, I'm treasonous.
Help me out here, just as an example. A Friend of mine who was a WW2 vet combat pilot, who was later shot down and was a POW for a year after flying combat for a year, was vehemently opposed to our going into Iraq. His comment was "That's not the type of country we are. We're not the aggressors!" (He has since passed away)
Was he a patriot or a traitor since he was vocal in his opposion. I'd just like a ruling on that, as he is one of my heros.
And this means?
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Damn those revolutionaries!
Well as to your friends opposition to the war No I don't view him as a traitor, but I doubt he would lend his name to NOT supporting the troops going in harms way or show to a protest that might have the same effect as not supporting them.
You know full well what free speech means and it does NOT mean you can yell "fire" in a croweded theater just to prove your right, are you saying the spy who hands over secrets to the enemy is just using his "free speech"
I never said you had to think like me in fact I doubt you ever will.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
Read the post I was responding to. The fact that Greece was occupied by the Nazi had nothing to do with what what he was talking about. Then again, my English is better than his so maybe he just could not get his idea across :rofl
So, to keep it simple. The fact that Greece was occupied by the Nazi was completely irrelevant to the conversation, and telling that to someone that never got to meet some of his family because of the Nazi occupation sounded like telling me that the ocean is wet.
Then again, maybe I read it wrong since this native American does not seem to have master the language yet, lol.
As usual Ded has a convient memory, not to mention his self serving slurs on my command of the language.
The point was that we helped REMOVE the Nazi's from his native country like we have helped numerous countries around the World. Ded with his uncommon wit chose to redicule that action as being irrelevant or a nonevent (since it was convient to his POV)
You see folks like Ded want to enjoy mastery of the boards through intimadation of anyone who post opposing views to theirs' it's part of their thinking they are more important than anyone else
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
You see folks like Ded want to enjoy mastery of the boards through intimadation of anyone who post opposing views to theirs' it's part of their thinking they are more important than anyone else
Hypocritical no?
-
Originally posted by Bronk
Don't strain that already overtaxed hamster wheel there box, it couldn't keep up.
Bronk
yeah yeah your too smart too tough and just an all around american boy :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
yeah yeah your too smart too tough and just an all around american boy :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Wow that really stings. Did ya come up with that all by yourself?
:rolleyes:
Bronk
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
The point was that we helped REMOVE the Nazi's from his native country like we have helped numerous countries around the World.
Good thing they were in the way so that The Germans had to go through them first, considering how ill-prepared for war we were at the time. That was a lot of time bought in other people's blood while we geared up. Think that's why it was called a World War, not America saves the day.
-
Originally posted by Bronk
Wow that really stings. Did ya come up with that all by yourself?
:rolleyes:
Bronk
Naw I had YOUR help you are so inspirational :aok
-
Boxboy, you're so narrow minded that I can hardly call you an American.
Serving the country is not limited to be in the military. Supporting the troops and be against the war is not mutually exclusive. Being born in US doesn't necessarily make you an American and being nationalist on AH message board won't make you a patriot. Chest thumping won't make you a hero and stupid blabber of yours won't make you smarter.
The only thing you have proved so far is that you suffer extreme case of superiority complex and that Vossism is far more common than we believed is the case.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Naw I had YOUR help you are so inspirational :aok
Good, now maybe you might be able to figure out why/how the collision model is a good thing.
Or is that still a bit much for you to figure out?
Yea that might be a bit much as your one liners are sub par.
Bronk
-
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Boxboy, you're so narrow minded that I can hardly call you an American.
Serving the country is not limited to be in the military. Supporting the troops and be against the war is not mutually exclusive. Being born in US doesn't necessarily make you an American and being nationalist on AH message board won't make you a patriot. Chest thumping won't make you a hero and stupid blabber of yours won't make you smarter.
The only thing you have proved so far is that you suffer extreme case of superiority complex and that Vossism is far more common than we believed is the case.
so sez 2bighorn, now lets hear what you have done for your country, so far all that spews out of you is drivil.
-
Originally posted by Bronk
Good, now maybe you might be able to figure out why/how the collision model is a good thing.
Or is that still a bit much for you to figure out?
Yea that might be a bit much as your one liners are sub par.
Bronk
Awww I am soooo sorry I don't measure up to the Bronk Standard, BTW who hell are you anyway, must be pretty important the way you puff up:D
-
Boxboy, isnt about time you go back to stocking up the local walmart or whatever it is you do....
I have no problem with you (or anyone) getting their fair share of drivel in. But trust me you've exceeded the reasonable limit by a hefty margin.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Awww I am soooo sorry I don't measure up to the Bronk Standard, BTW who hell are you anyway, must be pretty important the way you puff up:D
Well now, since you were so good ad judging people's patriotism. I figured I try a judging lesser subject.
Bronk
-
lol vossism. I think your self proclaimed patriotism should be revoked for skipping over alot of the free speech thing. Ya ya, you can't yell fire it a movie theatre, but what about the part about the right to petition the government? What about standing up as a country to do what you think is right. I believe that would be considered patriotic, yet, according to you, it is treason. I guess the whole United states is based on treason against the England. This is where people forget how important free speech is, its not just about being able to say stuff. The constition was designed to give some power to the people, to help keep the government on track. If you want to sit around, gloat, and talk about the past and why everyone should worship the ground you walk on that's your right. I don't see anything patriotic about that action at all.
-
This is an amazing thread. Boxboy has stated some amazing things.
Here's my take...
1) Inasmuch as 21% of the active US military was born in some other nation or territory/commonwealth, you must realize that there's an awful lot of foreigners putting their life on the line for this nation. I say, anyone who serves a tour in our military should receive automatic citizenship. They earned it.
2) Serving is a duty, not an excuse to chest thump.
3) People have the right to disagree. As a veteran, I risked my bacon to preserve that right. They have every right to disagree with the government. It's not a matter of whether they are right or wrong either..
4) This nation is a nation of immigrants. Always has been, always will be. There's always the "we were here first" crowd who are too obtuse to recognize that their ancestors were subject to the same stupidity. Think about it, native Americans have been fighting a war on terror since 1492...
5) Being a veteran doesn't make you a super-patriot. I'm a veteran, strapped my arse into an airplane every day and got shot off the pointy end of a carrier. It was my job. Some guys keep our parks clean, some work hard to raise responsible kids into good citizens. Some enforce the laws. Everyone can contribute in some way. Not everyone has to wear a uniform, and they certainly don't need a uniform to have my respect.
6) The entire attitude that people who disagree with one's concept of the nation is either unpatriotic or even a personal enemy, this utterly baffles me.
Boxboy wrote: "I am a natureal born American (1943 in Lansing, MI), served my country right out of high school (1961-1965) was in during the Cuban Missle Crisis and the beginning of outright Hostilies in Viet Nam. Later (after the service) started and operated my own business for a number of years until I retired a few years ago."
Here's a clue... You were a peace-time soldier, and damn fortunate too.
As to pedigree... My first ancestor to arrive in America did so 10 years BEFORE any white man saw Plymouth Rock. 1610 as part of the Jamestown relief expedition (with Lord De La Warr). My paternal great-great grandfather commanded an artillery unit in Alexander's Battalion, Longstreet's Corps, Army of Northern Virginia. My maternal great great grandfather served as a Private in a Pennsylvania infantry regiment, and was wounded twice (Chancellorsville and Gettysburg). Oh yeah, he was born in Germany in 1834. My maternal grandfather served in France with the 28th Infantry (Pennsylvania National Guard) and was wounded severely in the Argonne. My father fought in the Hurtgen Forest and was among first units to cross the Rhine at Remagen. Finally, I served in the US Navy.
What's my point? Nothing in my background permits me to look down on anyone else. Nothing in my history (family and personal) gives me the right to belittle others who disagree with me because I'm some sort of specially entitled super-citizen.
I've watched you attack and lambast good, decent folks throughout this thread, and I think you did so because you think you've somehow earned that right. Well, you haven't earned anything of the kind. It's time you stuck a sock in it and preserved what shreds of good will that remain.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Widewing
This is an amazing thread. Boxboy has stated some amazing things.
Here's my take...
1) Inasmuch as 21% of the active US military was born in some other nation or territory/commonwealth, you must realize that there's an awful lot of foreigners putting their life on the line for this nation. I say, anyone who serves a tour in our military should receive automatic citizenship. They earned it.
2) Serving is a duty, not an excuse to chest thump.
3) People have the right to disagree. As a veteran, I risked my bacon to preserve that right. They have every right to disagree with the government. It's not a matter of whether they are right or wrong either..
4) This nation is a nation of immigrants. Always has been, always will be. There's always the "we were here first" crowd who are too obtuse to recognize that their ancestors were subject to the same stupidity. Think about it, native Americans have been fighting a war on terror since 1492...
5) Being a veteran doesn't make you a super-patriot. I'm a veteran, strapped my arse into an airplane every day and got shot off the pointy end of a carrier. It was my job. Some guys keep our parks clean, some work hard to raise responsible kids into good citizens. Some enforce the laws. Everyone can contribute in some way. Not everyone has to wear a uniform, and they certainly don't need a uniform to have my respect.
6) The entire attitude that people who disagree with one's concept of the nation is either unpatriotic or even a personal enemy, this utterly baffles me.
Boxboy wrote: "I am a natureal born American (1943 in Lansing, MI), served my country right out of high school (1961-1965) was in during the Cuban Missle Crisis and the beginning of outright Hostilies in Viet Nam. Later (after the service) started and operated my own business for a number of years until I retired a few years ago."
Here's a clue... You were a peace-time soldier, and damn fortunate too.
As to pedigree... My first ancestor to arrive in America did so 10 years BEFORE any white man saw Plymouth Rock. 1610 as part of the Jamestown relief expedition (with Lord De La Warr). My paternal great-great grandfather commanded an artillery unit in Alexander's Battalion, Longstreet's Corps, Army of Northern Virginia. My maternal great great grandfather served as a Private in a Pennsylvania infantry regiment, and was wounded twice (Chancellorsville and Gettysburg). Oh yeah, he was born in Germany in 1834. My maternal grandfather served in France with the 28th Infantry (Pennsylvania National Guard) and was wounded severely in the Argonne. My father fought in the Hurtgen Forest and was among first units to cross the Rhine at Remagen. Finally, I served in the US Navy.
What's my point? Nothing in my background permits me to look down on anyone else. Nothing in my history (family and personal) gives me the right to belittle others who disagree with me because I'm some sort of specially entitled super-citizen.
I've watched you attack and lambast good, decent folks throughout this thread, and I think you did so because you think you've somehow earned that right. Well, you haven't earned anything of the kind. It's time you stuck a sock in it and preserved what shreds of good will that remain.
My regards,
Widewing
Thanks for your views and your service here's a clue for you I received along with the rest of my unit, the Presidential Unit Citation for the Cuban Missile Crisis, sorry you feel that was not an important event in World History.
BTW Viet Nam went from 1964 to 1973 and my petigree is as good as yours and I could quote all my ancestors and where they were, my dad was Iwo Jima for starters, but that has nothing to with anything you said nor does my postion, just because YOU say what I think doesn't make it so.
Put sock in your own mouth if you wish but don't presume to tell me how to live (since you fought so bravely to insure that I could)
My Regards,
-
Originally posted by evenhaim
biggest bullcrap ever we applied for statehood the European nations voted, we got a country i dont see america anywhere in israel's history in 1948:rofl
but seriosuly keep thinking that. America #1!:lol
well at one point AMERICA was great, and i still love my country, but since power hungry men have taken over, this country has changed ALOT,
GOD and family where the most important things in this country,
now we judge our people{and others} by there wealth and there toys, and feel that this is what makes a person.
we think we have the right to force our believes on others, and man what asinine believes we have in this country.
america has turned what was good into bad, and what was bad good
evenhaim believe me not all Americans are what the world thinks we are.
as a matter of fact i HATE my government they are a bunch of murdering bast@rds. but then again because i say GOD has talked to me, im insane
he has talked to me so much i tattood his name on my face.
-
lol dont worry i have family that lives in america, and i myself studied there as a child hence my english :p but yes i know boxboy is "special"
freezman
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
As usual Ded has a convient memory, not to mention his self serving slurs on my command of the language.
The point was that we helped REMOVE the Nazi's from his native country like we have helped numerous countries around the World. Ded with his uncommon wit chose to redicule that action as being irrelevant or a nonevent (since it was convient to his POV)
You see folks like Ded want to enjoy mastery of the boards through intimadation of anyone who post opposing views to theirs' it's part of their thinking they are more important than anyone else
BoxBoy, I love you. You are one of the funniest people in here. :lol
I am still waiting for an answer btw. Do you really think European youth hate America because they can't be native Americans? Are you really that stupid? Bah, don't answer that, lol. Do you hate America too since you cant be a Native American? lol
Do my questions intimidate you? Maybe I should just spew some garbage with nothing to back it up like you do? Would that be better?
Thanks for helping save my country but I guess we helped save yours from the bad Koreans. We are even I guess, lol.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
I received along with the rest of my unit, the Presidential Unit Citation for the Cuban Missile Crisis
To important comrade as you are, it was probably presented by Castro himself...
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Thanks for your views and your service here's a clue for you I received along with the rest of my unit, the Presidential Unit Citation for the Cuban Missile Crisis, sorry you feel that was not an important event in World History.
BTW Viet Nam went from 1964 to 1973 and my petigree is as good as yours and I could quote all my ancestors and where they were, my dad was Iwo Jima for starters, but that has nothing to with anything you said nor does my postion, just because YOU say what I think doesn't make it so.
Put sock in your own mouth if you wish but don't presume to tell me how to live (since you fought so bravely to insure that I could)
My Regards,
A PUC for not fighting? As far as I know Kennedy only authorized PUCs for the 4080th Strategic Wing and 363rd Tactical Reconnaissance Wing. They earned it, flying dangerous missions keeping tabs on the Soviets. What was your unit?
As to the rest, you only serve to prove my point. The right to free speech does not include to right to belittle or ridicule those who disagree. No one has the right to be abusive. Seriously, consider cutting your losses.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Widewing
A PUC for not fighting? As far as I know Kennedy only authorized PUCs for the 4080th Strategic Wing and 363rd Tactical Reconnaissance Wing. They earned it, flying dangerous missions keeping tabs on the Soviets. What was your unit?
As to the rest, you only serve to prove my point. The right to free speech does not include to right to belittle or ridicule those who disagree. No one has the right to be abusive. Seriously, consider cutting your losses.
My regards,
Widewing
guess you better check your facts more carefully, you will find several PUC's awarded to SAC at the time, but guess your not as well informed as I thought. BTW my outfit was the 576th SMS check it out.
As to the last paragraph just who is belittling who here? Looks like I am the one receiving the brunt of the belittling here not that it bothers me much, the big flame machine turned on me has little effect since I regard most of the posters lightly.
I know who I am and what I have done and thats good enough for me.
-
I wish I could do something important so I can belittle people in a video game. Maybe if I'd have joined the military I could come on here and be all high and mighty. I think it's about time to issue the distinguished "Rainbow Warrior" award.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
BTW my outfit was the 576th SMS check it out.
What crew? Did you know somebody from R-02?
-
Originally posted by 2bighorn
What crew? Did you know somebody from R-02?
We had alot of crews, we were a training outfit after all, in fact the PUC was for going from training status to Operational in 24 hours.
I was at B-site, an Atlas F silo, site commander was LT Col Wojnar as I recall but has been a long time since I was there (over 40 years ago)
Squadron 1st Shirt was CMS Funk I will always remember that name cause it was so unusal or least I thought so.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
in fact the PUC was for going from training status to Operational in 24 hours.
No matter how hard I try, I can't remember any 1SAD unit getting PUC since WWII and I'm pretty certain 576 SMS didn't get any in it's last 1961-66 assignment.
576B never had any F silo
Do you know anyone from 576A?
-
Originally posted by 2bighorn
No matter how hard I try, I can't remember any 1SAD unit getting PUC since WWII and I'm pretty certain 576 SMS didn't get any in it's last 1961-66 assignment.
576B never had any F silo
Do you know anyone from 576A?
Heh I should have known you were trying to set me up NOW I want you to put your money where your mouth is I can PROVE with miltary records what awards I got and where.
I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sure as hell isn't Vandenberg AFB or the 15th AIR Force or SAC or the 576th Strategic Missile Squardron. and if think there was NEVER a B-site Atlas F site, how would you like me to walk you to it.
All the atlas stuff is declassified now so worrys.
So bring your money (as much as you want to lose and take me up)
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Heh I should have known you were trying to set me up NOW I want you to put your money where your mouth is I can PROVE with miltary records what awards I got and where.
I can prove I worked for CIA, flew F16, bought P-51...
I'm not trying to set you up. You already did that all by your own.
Originally posted by Boxboy
I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sure as hell isn't Vandenberg AFB or the 15th AIR Force or SAC or the 576th Strategic Missile Squardron. and if think there was NEVER a B-site Atlas F site, how would you like me to walk you to it.
1SAD had nothing to do with 15th AF during your alleged service nor did 576th.
576B - Atlas D, 576D, 576E - Atlas F.
I'm sure after googling a bit, you'll remember where in Vendy those damn Atlas F were.
-
2bighorn = MetaVoss? :noid
-
Originally posted by 2bighorn
I can prove I worked for CIA, flew F16, bought P-51...
I'm not trying to set you up. You already did that all by your own.
1SAD had nothing to do with 15th AF during your alleged service nor did 576th.
576B - Atlas D, 576D, 576E - Atlas F.
I'm sure after googling a bit, you'll remember where in Vendy those damn Atlas F were.
I suppose I googled my dd214 also and your full of crap about the 15th Air force and Vandenberg from 1962 to 1965, but I see YOU did some googling cause I found the same stuff you did, but it didn't go on to speak about our F silo's (I guess be cause we were training outfit) but we had them and where I said, so let me know how we are going to do this deal I am willing to prove my stuff.
-
LOL, 576th was attached to 1st Strategic Aerospace Division (1SAD) from 1959 to 1966. 1SAD was operational component of SAC. Don't know how you got 15th AF there.
As for your Atlas F, not at 576B. OSTF1 didn't have them either but D and E.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
but I see YOU did some googling cause I found the same stuff you did
Well, at least you admit your info is from internet.
You still didn't answer which crew you were part of. I'm sure you would remember that.
-
Yeah lets let all the folks read this site and see if I am lying, cause to date you have proved NOTHING and alleged much.
http://www.usafpatches.com/sacdiv.shtml
If that doesn't do it I will scan my DD-214 so you can choke on it
-
Uh, your link does not confirm what you said, you're getting confused now.
Look at the image bellow. That's your B site in 1967. All I see are Atlas D Coffins. No F silo at B site. In lower left out of the picture is more of B site and little further OSTF1 and I can assure you there were no Fs. In upper left corner is (I'm sure) something very familiar to you...
(http://sierra-host.net/bb/576th_site_B_1967.jpg)
-
Interesting comment about HO...
:huh "...talk about Hijacked Offtopic..."
:cool: "Dude! The thread has been HO-ed and is going down in flames!
:D "...but it is good for a little psyc-HO-logical amusement!
:rolleyes: "...HO-ly Mackerel!!!
-
BoxBoy,
I am still waiting for an answer but I am willing to back off for a bit. Seeing the slapping you are receiving from BigHorn makes me feel sorry for you.
BigHorn, please let me know when you are done with him and please do leave some for me, k?
:rofl :rofl :rofl
-
So at best case the president overrode military protocals and gave your unit a PUC as a training medal? your comments go along way toward explaining your attitude. Sadly (no disrespect to you intended) you were part of a small "push button" contingent with no actual interaction with your adversary in a "war" that thankfully was never fought. I'm sure that a significant amount of effort was expended to dehumanize those who you might be forced to incinerate. Compare that to the average Marine PFC's footlocker which inevitably has two things...alot of pictures of his buddies...and pics of small children, villages and other local sites.
The sad reality is that you too are a cold war relic better retired along with your ATLAS's....
-
Humble, I doubt he has ever seen VAFB from the inside. I doubt he served in 576 SMS in the '60s.
He had no clue how 576 was organized into SAC, even less how many launch sites were and which Atlas models where at which sites.
He doesn't want to answer which crew he was member of. Not sure if he even knows how many were in Atlas F silo combat crew.
Got forbid he'd answer if I ask him about MCCC, DMCC, BMAT, MET or EPPT, or even go into technical details of HGM-16F.
He can remember everything about Israel, Greece and Europe in general in WWII, but when it comes to his alleged service, one which he is so proud of it and means a lot to patriot like him, things get very blurry and memory becomes weak.
Just another Voss/Mr. Black/Iceman...
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
I am tired of laying down /B]
Looks like he was made to lay down again :rofl
Get up BoxBoy!!!! Fight !!!!!! I asked Bihorn to let you post twice before he slams you to the ground again and he said its ok :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
-
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Humble, I doubt he has ever seen VAFB from the inside. I doubt he served in 576 SMS in the '60s.
He had no clue how 576 was organized into SAC, even less how many launch sites were and which Atlas models where at which sites.
He doesn't want to answer which crew he was member of. Not sure if he even knows how many were in Atlas F silo combat crew.
Got forbid he'd answer if I ask him about MCCC, DMCC, BMAT, MET or EPPT, or even go into technical details of HGM-16F.
He can remember everything about Israel, Greece and Europe in general in WWII, but when it comes to his alleged service, one which he is so proud of it and means a lot to patriot like him, things get very blurry and memory becomes weak.
Just another Voss/Mr. Black/Iceman...
Guess you can't read the link I provided CLEARLY showed the 576th as
1. Being in existance in 1962 at Vandenberg (you said it wasn't)
2. Clearly showed the Missile types there at the time (you said 576 had no F models)
3. Clearly spoke to the Cuban Missile Crisis and the fact that "ORI" status was changed to operational (cause for the award)
in short it proved what I have been saying, but you will continue to ignor facts post your venom. If you want to send me your e-mail addy I will gladly provide you with a copy of my DD-214, where I live and an invitation to come call me a liar to my face.
I never said I was part of a missile crew YOU did, a missile squadron has many members who are NOT on a crew, they are of STILL members of the squadron.
AS for the crew acronyms Missile Combat Crew Commander, Deputy Missile Crew Commader, (have forgotten what BMAT was), and Emergency Power Production Tech, I am familiar. You of course will just say I goodled the info.
As for your googled 1967 aerial of "B" site, it means nothing, since we also had "F" silos there and "B" site was actually B-1 B-2 B-3 as I recall.
Your attempt to make out that I have lied will blow in your face if you have the guts to come meet me.
This has gone beyond, simple posting and has crossed into liable, if you can't prove I wasn't there.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
This has gone beyound, simple posting and has crossed into liable, if you can't prove I wasn't there.
And you took it there :rofl
Now, where is my answer. I don't mind being hated but it would be nice to know why :lol
-
A patch collector's site? You're kidding, right?
-
This HO thread turned out to be more entertaining than usual. Keep up the good work, guys! :aok
-
Originally posted by hubsonfire
A patch collector's site? You're kidding, right?
Well it speaks to the history and that is all I care, how much research of have you done Hub I will tell you NONE.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
And you took it there :rofl
Now, where is my answer. I don't mind being hated but it would be nice to know why :lol
Your old history Ded and for me have been out this for sometime, your stupid but not stupid enough to cross the line.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Guess you can't read the link I provided CLEARLY showed the 576th as
1. Being in existance in 1962 at Vandenberg (you said it wasn't)
Uhm no, I said 567th had nothing to do with 15th AF at that time
Originally posted by Boxboy
2. Clearly showed the Missile types there at the time (you said 576 had no F models)
Uhm no, I said your 576B site had never any F silo
Originally posted by Boxboy
3. Clearly spoke to the Cuban Missile Crisis and the fact that "ORI" status was changed to operational (cause for the award)
Uhm no, it became operational few years earlier. If you mean 'missiles on alert', that's something completely different, and if you were there, you'd know exactly which of 576A, 576B, 576C, 576D, 576E, etc were on alert, from when and until when.
No PUC was awarded to 576th SMS during your 'service'.
Originally posted by Boxboy
in short it proved what I have been saying, but you will continue to ignor facts post your venom. If you want to send me your e-mail addy I will gladly provide you with a copy of my DD-214, where I live and an invitation to come call me a liar to my face.
Originally posted by Boxboy
I never said I was part of a missile crew YOU did, a missile squadron has many members who are NOT on a crew, they are of STILL members of the squadron.
So, what exactly you were doing in 576th SMS? I'd like to discuss some technical details.
BTW, You've said you were at 576B, that means you should be CC member.
Originally posted by Boxboy
You of course will just say I goodled the info.
Exactly
Originally posted by Boxboy
As for your googled 1967 aerial of "B" site, it means nothing, since we also had "F" silos there and "B" site was actually B-1 B-2 B-3 as I recall.
As I have already told you, 576B1-B2-B3 were HGM-16D coffins.
576D, 576E and OSTF2 (aka 576G) had HGM-16Fs
Originally posted by Boxboy
Your attempt to make out that I have lied will blow in your face if you have the guts to come meet me.
You want to beat me up?
Originally posted by Boxboy
This has gone beyond, simple posting and has crossed into liable, if you can't prove I wasn't there.
I believe it's against the law to lie about military service, especially about things like awards.
Now back to facts about your B site and Atlas F. You'll notice that only Ds were launched from 576B during your service.
1961 November 29 - 23:01 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 53D.
1961 December 7 - 21:18 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B3. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 82D.
1962 January 17 - 21:02 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 123D.
1962 January 23 - 21:28 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B3. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 132D.
1962 February 16 - 23:04 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 137D.
1962 February 21 - 22:30 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B3. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 52D. FAILURE: Failure.
1962 March 24 - 00:39 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 134D.
1962 April 12 - 01:57 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 129D.
1962 April 27 - 23:24 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 140D.
1962 May 12 - 00:31 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B3. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 127D.
1962 June 26 - 10:57 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B3. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 21D.
1962 July 12 - 16:57 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 141D.
1962 July 19 - 11:05 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B1. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 13D.
1962 August 9 - 22:51 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B3. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 8D.
1962 August 9 - 23:05 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 87D.
1962 October 2 - 11:46 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 4D. FAILURE: Failure.
1963 January 25 - 10:44 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 39D. FAILURE: Failure.
1963 March 10 - 02:42 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B3. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 102D. FAILURE: Failure.
1963 March 12 - 05:21 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 64D.
1963 March 15 - 11:38 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B1. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 46D. FAILURE: Failure.
1963 July 31 - 20:52 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B1. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 143D.
1963 August 28 - 23:10 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B3. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 142D.
1963 September 6 - 21:59 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 63D. FAILURE: Failure.
1963 September 11 - 21:00 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B1. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 84D. FAILURE: Failure.
1963 November 13 - 22:35 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 158D. FAILURE: Failure.
1965 January 12 - 14:32 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B1. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 166D.
1965 January 21 - 21:34 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576B3. Launch Vehicle: Atlas D. Model: Atlas D. LV Configuration: Atlas D 172D. FAILURE: Failure.
And you'll notice that none of F launches happened at 576B
1962 August 1 - 21:07 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576E. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 15F.
1962 August 10 - 21:11 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: OSTF. Launch Pad: OSTF2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 57F. FAILURE: Failure.
1962 November 14 - 22:36 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: OSTF. Launch Pad: OSTF2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 13F. FAILURE: Failure.
1963 March 16 - 02:05 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576D. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 63F.
1963 March 21 - 21:10 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: OSTF. Launch Pad: OSTF2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 83F.
1963 March 24 - 00:29 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576E. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 52F. FAILURE: Failure.
1963 October 4 - 05:17 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576G. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 45F. FAILURE: Failure.
1963 December 18 - 22:56 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576G. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 109F.
1964 April 3 - 20:26 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576G. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 3F. FAILURE: Failure.
1964 August 7 - 20:12 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576E. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 110F.
1964 August 31 - 15:46 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576D. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 36F.
1965 January 8 - 18:59 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: 576. Launch Pad: 576G. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 106F.
1965 August 5 - 13:21 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: ABRES. Launch Pad: ABRESA2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 147F.
1966 August 8 - 17:47 GMT - Launch Site: Vandenberg. Launch Complex: ABRES. Launch Pad: ABRESA2. Launch Vehicle: Atlas F. LV Configuration: Atlas F 149F. FAILURE: Failure.
So, I really suggest, either you get your facts straight or you stop posting about 576th SMS service all together.
-
Just doing that google bit. Atlas D does seem to be the key.
Included in the transfer was the 704 Strategic Missile Wing, which had been activated as USAF first missile wing on July 1, 1957. The 704th had a dual mission of training missile crews for other units and attaining an operation capability with the Atlas ICBM. It had one Atlas D squadron, the 576th Strategic Missile Squadron assigned. Activated on 1 April, the 576th had a dual responsibility of maintaining an Atlas D alert force and providing training for other SAC Atlas units.
the squadron was reactivated on 6 March 1958 as the 576th Strategic Missile Squadron (SMS) assigned to Cook AFB (later renamed Vandenberg AFB). On 1 April 1958, the 576th was assigned to the Strategic Air Command (SAC) as an Atlas Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) unit, the nation's first ICBM unit. On 2 April 1966, the 576th was once again inactivated.
In January 1958, ARDC transferred the base to the Strategic Air Command (SAC). With facilities under construction for America’s first ICBM, on April 1, 1958, Headquarters SAC activated the 576th Strategic Missile Squadron. On October 4, 1958, Cooke AFB was renamed Vandenberg AFB in honor of the late General Hoyt S. Vandenberg, the Air Force's second Chief of Staff.
The first Atlas launcher to be completed (576A-1) was accepted from the contractor by the 1st Missile Division on October 16, 1958. The first Atlas D missile arrived the following February. Initially, the squadron’s Atlas D missiles were deployed at complexes 576A and 576B. Complex 576A consisted of three above-ground gantries; 576B had three above-ground coffin launchers of a type that would be constructed at other sites. Each complex had one launch control center.
The 576th SMS launched its first Atlas D on September 9, 1959. Immediately following the launch, SAC’s Commander in Chief, General Thomas S. Power declared Vandenberg’s Atlas missile operational. A month later, the squadron’s Atlas missiles were placed on an alert status. The activation had more psychological value than military value as the reliability of the Atlas D missile was highly questionable. Improved versions were already undergoing production along with launch facilities to support them. As the above-ground sites became operational, construction continued on a buried coffin launcher to hold an Atlas E missile (designated launch site 576C) and work began on two Atlas F silo lift launchers (576D and 5763).
By 1962, 11 prototype Atlas complexes had been constructed at Vandenberg AFB.
Project "Added Effort", the Air Force nickname for the programmed phaseout of all first-generation ICBMs, began on 1 May 1964 when the first Atlas D's were taken off alert at the 576th Strategic Missile Squadron
-
I'm not sure how this has been allowed to go on this long, but it amazes the crap out of me.
Why don't you chill with the personal attacks on the boards. You have PM's that you can hadle this through, exchange phone numbers, send each other post cards, meet at the local McDonald's, I don't care but please take your pointless and juvenile arguments out of the public eye.
-
I think this one is fully cooked.