Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Trip01 on September 15, 2007, 08:51:05 AM
-
If a collision occurs, how does the game decide who has collided with whom?
I ask this because yesterday I was closing on an nme from his 6 at a high closing speed, opened up, saw a few hits, pulled up hard to avoid the collision and blacked out. I didn't actually see a collision because my screen was black, but apparently I pulled away too late because as the screen came back I got a message 'so-and-so has collided with you'. He died, I suffered no damage.
Considering the nme was totally unaware of what was going on and was not maneuvering this seems a bit harsh on the poor chap. If there was a collision it could only have been my fault. So, what is the criteria the game uses to decide?
Trip
-
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24244&highlight=collisions
-
Originally posted by Trip01
If a collision occurs, how does the game decide who has collided with whom?
The game does not decide.
First thing to take into consideration:
Due to lag (data needs some time to travel between your and your enemies computer) there are two realities. One on his and one on your computer. What you see is therefore not exactly what he does see. Plane positions can differ on your and his screen.
So while, for example, on YOUR computer there was a collision, on HIS computer there might not have been one.
So what you see is what you get:
If there is a collision on your screen, you will get damage.
If there is a collision on HIS screen, he will get damage.
If there is a collision on BOTH screens, both get damage.
BTW, there are two popular but really stupid proposals regarding collisions:
1) "Both should get damage! They do in reality!"
That would result in getting damage from a collision from with an enemy that might even have missed you by 200ft on your screen. There would be no way to dodge any ram attempt.
2) "So get rid of collisions anyway!"
Short answer: Just watch where you're flying and you'll be fine.
Long answer: Nobody would have to maneuver anymore. No risk of collsions mean you can fly guns blazing through enemy buffs. Highly detrimental to gameplay.
-
The game does not care whose fault it is.
If a palm tree falls on my car while I'm playing the car still takes damage.
-
Originally posted by Trip01
If a collision occurs, how does the game decide who has collided with whom?
I ask this because yesterday I was closing on an nme from his 6 at a high closing speed, opened up, saw a few hits, pulled up hard to avoid the collision and blacked out. I didn't actually see a collision because my screen was black, but apparently I pulled away too late because as the screen came back I got a message 'so-and-so has collided with you'. He died, I suffered no damage.
Considering the nme was totally unaware of what was going on and was not maneuvering this seems a bit harsh on the poor chap. If there was a collision it could only have been my fault. So, what is the criteria the game uses to decide?
Trip
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Originally posted by Bronk
Slappy, it's my personal windmill.:D
Tangle's external from his front end the moment of impact.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/Tanglesview.jpg)
Same basic angle external, tangle's view from my front end moment of impact.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/myview.jpg)
How would you feel taking damage looking at your film and seeing tangles front end view, hmmmmmm?
I know I'd be pretty POed.
Bronk
Edit: This also works nicely for the "none should take damage" people.
Yea I should be able to put the nose of my ac through another.:furious :furious :furious :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Bronk
-
we should just ask for a sticky of bronks explanation
-
What gets me is when people accuse me of deliberately ramming them. I've never deliberately rammed anyone. Why would I? Seems like 9 times out of 10 I end up the loser in a collision.
Even as mentioned above when the con is 800 to 1000 out, I'll fire a burst as we close and pull up to avoid collision at what I think is 400 to 600m. I still end up colliding, I guess because of the lag.
Yet a few opponents will IM me and say I deliberately rammed them.
I didn't and never have, guys and gals!
-
Originally posted by Bronk
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Bronk
Hey... I thought you said ONE more time in that other forum.
-
Originally posted by BaldEagl
Hey... I thought you said ONE more time in that other forum.
It's a conditioned response. :)
Bronk
-
Trip01, you successfully avoided the collision is why you took no damage. On your FE, by however narrow a margin, you did not collide.
Due to lag, his FE probably saw you pull up too late and as he did not manuever out of the way, collided.
Not your fault, his fault.
-
Originally posted by Bronk
It's a conditioned response. :)
Bronk
Kind of like Don Quixote and his windmills. . .
-
Originally posted by Bronk
It's a conditioned response. :)
Bronk
Kinda like "2 weeks" :D
-
Originally posted by Karnak
Trip01, you successfully avoided the collision is why you took no damage. On your FE, by however narrow a margin, you did not collide.
Due to lag, his FE probably saw you pull up too late and as he did not manuever out of the way, collided.
Not your fault, his fault.
It makes perfect sense that the FE should decide whether there has been a collision from the point of view of that FE. I have no issue with that as a general principal.
However if I'm approaching an nme from his 6 network lag will mean his FE sees me a bit behind where my FE sees me and my FE sees him a bit behind where his FE sees him. In other words my FE should show us being closer together than his does.
Bronk's response actually shows the situation as you would expect: the player in front sees a greater separation than the player behind. But what I described is apparently the opposite. No doubt this observation will elicit another 'grrr'.
I'm not complaining, I'm just curious.
Trip
-
Actually what you described was not seeing it due to blackout.
-
Originally posted by Trip01
Bronk's response actually shows the situation as you would expect: the player in front sees a greater separation than the player behind. But what I described is apparently the opposite.
Not necessarily. You always perceive the other player "behind" where he perceives himself due to lag. In essence (as HiTech once described it), you are seeing a shadow of his plane towed on a rope. The length of that rope is equal to the internet lag he is experiencing.
I believe the missing piece here is that there is a time displacement as well as a spacial displacement. That is, your movements are a perceived a little bit later due to the lag as well.
So, what likely happened is that you pulled up just in the nick of time. But, due to lag, his system perceived you flying in a straight line just a half second longer -- long enough for your "shadow" to hit him.
-
Originally posted by E25280
I believe the missing piece here is that there is a time displacement as well as a spacial displacement. That is, your movements are a perceived a little bit later due to the lag as well.
So, what likely happened is that you pulled up just in the nick of time. But, due to lag, his system perceived you flying in a straight line just a half second longer -- long enough for your "shadow" to hit him.
Yup.
-
Originally posted by E25280
I believe the missing piece here is that there is a time displacement as well as a spacial displacement. That is, your movements are a perceived a little bit later due to the lag as well.
never really got the whole space/time continueum (sp) thing d:
-
Originally posted by Bronk
It's a conditioned response. :)
Bronk
The problem is I remember HT saying very strongly that your connection made NO difference to game play, but quite clearly with your demo it DOES
because without lag there is NO way we wouldn't both see the same thing at the same time.
As far as turning the collisions off, they were NOT on in AW and I never recall it making a large difference to game play.
-
Originally posted by E25280
Not necessarily. You always perceive the other player "behind" where he perceives himself due to lag. In essence (as HiTech once described it), you are seeing a shadow of his plane towed on a rope. The length of that rope is equal to the internet lag he is experiencing.
I believe the missing piece here is that there is a time displacement as well as a spacial displacement. That is, your movements are a perceived a little bit later due to the lag as well.
So, what likely happened is that you pulled up just in the nick of time. But, due to lag, his system perceived you flying in a straight line just a half second longer -- long enough for your "shadow" to hit him.
Not exactly ("The length of that rope is equal to the internet lag he is experiencing"). The lag time you both experience is the same (the total lag time from your computer to the server to his computer and vice versa). That's why connect speed doesn't affect gameplay.
The rest is correct.
-
Originally posted by BaldEagl
That's why connect speed doesn't affect gameplay.
Hmm not exactly right too - It can and will affect gameplay.
The bigger the combined lag is, the greater the disadvantage of the defending player (regardless if he is the one with the biggest lag or not).
While the attacker is simply shooting at the enemy plane on his screen, it may be harder to dodge the shots for the defender. Just remember the various situations when a enemy shot you when he had already passed you, or when shooting at seemingly "impossible" angles. On his FE the shot was possible. Bigger lag = bigger difference on both FE's
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
As far as turning the collisions off, they were NOT on in AW and I never recall it making a large difference to game play.
AW is eons ago with a much smaller and quite different player base.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
The problem is I remember HT saying very strongly that your connection made NO difference to game play, but quite clearly with your demo it DOES
Your connection doesn't make a diff. If ya don't fly into an ac you don't break your's, simple. You sound like you want the ability to purposely ram an opponent. You do know object is to SHOOT the other guy down, right?
because without lag there is NO way we wouldn't both see the same thing at the same time.
Let me know when you worked out the faster than light internet , OK :rolleyes:
As far as turning the collisions off, they were NOT on in AW and I never recall it making a large difference to game play.
While I enjoyed AW. It was gamey in many respects. HO thrown out, no collisions. Think about If collisions were done away with. All you need do to kill a buff is fly through them and pull trigger when inside. Kinda lame don't ya think?
Bronk
-
Originally posted by Bronk
While I enjoyed AW. It was gamey in many respects. HO thrown out, no collisions. Think about If collisions were done away with. All you need do to kill a buff is fly through them and pull trigger when inside. Kinda lame don't ya think?
Bronk
Heh I love all the hypothetical answer's about what happens when collisons are off but of course I NEVER saw any of that on AW and how long ago or how old that sim is, is simply irrelavant.
As for ramming you make a silly point, no one I know of is attempting to ram but you see something different on your FE than I see on mine then SOMETHING is causing that ( we know it's lag), now I want to know what do I care what your lag is if all I am getting are updates from the server as to your position in space?
From what Baldeagle said it is some type of combined lag? I guess I just don't see that concept at all. I suppose one could argue that the other guys lag effect the server reports I get but either way connect DOES make a difference.
-
Boxboy, he's right. It doesn't matter who has what kind of connect neither of you have an advantage as a result - your lag with respect to any other player is his time to send to the server, plus server processing time , plus your time to send to the server. This is why it makes no difference what kind of connect who has as far as having an "advantage".
For example, let's say you are in the office at HTC and have tapped into their ethernet, and he plays from Taiwan via modem....
If your roundtrip lag to the server is 2 ms, and his is 800 ms, and the server takes 20 ms to process - it will take 1+20+400 (421ms) for a position report to get from you to him - he'll see you on his FE at almost 1/2 second behind where you see yourself on your FE.
But notice - it will take a total of 400+20+1 (421 ms) for a position report to get from him to you, too. On your FE you'll see him exactly the same amount of time behind where he sees himself as he sees you relative to where you see yourself. And when it comes to collisions, all that matters is that your (or his) FE detects your (or his) aircraft touching another object.
(As a side note - this composite lag is where some of the "He killed me from 1200 yards!!!" complaints come from... )
As a further side note, when it comes to the complaints of "deliberately colliding into me!" I've seen one or two players that are obviously trying to time a collision by pulling up hard in front of every aircraft that makes a pass on them - there was one guy who was flying an IL2 who I watched do it 15 to 20 times, as he kept re-upping.
But since you are only guessing as to what kind of lag your opponent has, it's dang near impossible to get it right - if you are a moment too soon, you get a cockpit full of lead - and too late, and you'll collide on YOUR FE instead. It's pretty much impossible to game with enough success to matter, and once you've twigged that a player might be going to try, they are handing you a freebie kill. It only has even a remote chance if you aren't expecting it.
-
Originally posted by Boxboy
Heh I love all the hypothetical answer's about what happens when collisons are off but of course I NEVER saw any of that on AW and how long ago or how old that sim is, is simply irrelavant.
As for ramming you make a silly point, no one I know of is attempting to ram but you see something different on your FE than I see on mine then SOMETHING is causing that ( we know it's lag), now I want to know what do I care what your lag is if all I am getting are updates from the server as to your position in space?
From what Baldeagle said it is some type of combined lag? I guess I just don't see that concept at all. I suppose one could argue that the other guys lag effect the server reports I get but either way connect DOES make a difference.
THE GAME IS PLAYED ON YOUR FRONT END, NOT HT SERVERS.
The server is nothing but a hub. So unless you are getting packet loss ping time makes little difference.
So you have to fly to what you see. If you shoot a plane on your front end it takes hits. You fly into another on your end YOU take damage.
Bronk
-
as long as distance and the need to send something over a distance continue to exist there will always be lag to one extent or another. Unfortunately the world we live in and physics does not allow for an online experience to exactly replicate instances in real life. Accepting this leads one to think how to deal with the lesser of evils. I agree that it is too bad that no one person shares the exact experience of every flight. On the other hand, I think flying into planes (with your plane), looking around, then shooting the crew from the inside is a bizarre solution. Making everyone take damage, because 1 person saw a collision, would create an uproar, as it should. The solution we are left with is if you collide, you take damage. If the other guy doesn't collide, he gets no damage. If both collide, both take damage. This rule doesn't benefit anyone, only hinders those who are tyring to ram someone and find out they only accomplished killing themselves. Which now can be billed as a "feature." :) Bottom line, don't run into people.
-
Originally posted by pluck
Bottom line, don't run into people.
:aok :aok :aok
Bronk
-
Originally posted by Bronk
:aok :aok :aok
Bronk
Ok I KNOW how it works, yelling about it in bold black (same as screaming to me) doesn't impress me much.
I simply think it would be less of a hassle if collisions were off, but I have no problem with it now since I rarely collide unless my old "eyesight" fails me.
The key to the argument that connect to the internet makes no difference is really this "it gives no advantage". It does however answer how one guy sees a miss on his FE and the other sees a hit on his (this doesn't forgive the guy who knew he was close and collided).
-
INSERT:
Rooks always win a collision
:lol :lol