Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Rich46yo on September 15, 2007, 08:56:21 PM
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This has cropped up from time to time. All night long Ive been bombing short in my B-26s. Im calibrated perfectly, releasing perfectly, and should be hitting the X, but each time my bombs are coming in short. Im pretty much bombing from 12,000' at full speed with 500 lb salvo of 2 delay 0.20. But Im perfectly calibrated and at most 1' off in my calibration from adjusting my direction.
What would cause this? Could it be my stick? The airplane? My speed? I haven't been able to hit a thing all night. I have the same thing happen to me in the AR234. I know Im releaseing right on the X.
Say I'm doing everything right, and no suggestions to go to the TA to learn how to bomb.
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I've had this happen a few times. Once I looked at my calibration after I dropped and my speed had decresed by atleast 20mph. I'm not sure why though.
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make sure you put autopilot on as well, or your plane could drift upwards which would explain the loss of speed.
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Originally posted by Jack16
make sure you put autopilot on as well, or your plane could drift upwards which would explain the loss of speed.
I believe in calibration mode it is auto-level. ;)
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As I said Im doing everything right. Ive dropped a lot of bombs since I joined this game. Its very disheartening to climb to these altitudes, fly these distances, and then come away with nothing. Im bombing perfectly because each time they are coming up exactly as short as the previous.
I went to the TA and same exact thing.
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I'm a bomber dweeb...
I made our squad plane the 234...lol
I hit anything and everything that comes in my way and is enemy.
What I do is level out a sector ahead...so I have all the time I need to get set up.
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Originally posted by SpikesX
I'm a bomber dweeb...
I made our squad plane the 234...lol
I hit anything and everything that comes in my way and is enemy.
This doesn't really help...
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
As I said Im doing everything right. Ive dropped a lot of bombs since I joined this game. Its very disheartening to climb to these altitudes, fly these distances, and then come away with nothing. Im bombing perfectly because each time they are coming up exactly as short as the previous.
I went to the TA and same exact thing.
Well then figure out how short they come up and adjust your drop time. wait an extra half second(or whatever) and drop then. Use the sight x as a referance and not as your actual sight.
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Have you tried dropping at a slower speed?
If so, did they hit "less short"?
Originally posted by Rich46yo
This has cropped up from time to time. All night long Ive been bombing short in my B-26s. Im calibrated perfectly, releasing perfectly, and should be hitting the X, but each time my bombs are coming in short. Im pretty much bombing from 12,000' at full speed with 500 lb salvo of 2 delay 0.20. But Im perfectly calibrated and at most 1' off in my calibration from adjusting my direction.
What would cause this? Could it be my stick? The airplane? My speed? I haven't been able to hit a thing all night. I have the same thing happen to me in the AR234. I know Im releaseing right on the X.
Say I'm doing everything right, and no suggestions to go to the TA to learn how to bomb.
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Pinpoint bombing is difficult at full speed and gets even more difficult the faster you are.
Try to get your speed stabilized 1/2 sector away.
Reduce rpm ([-] on numpad) a few hundred rpm.
You can align yourself from 1/2 a sector away of target by going to front gun position, then F3 view, zooming in and out with [z] then [[] & []] until you see your target. Steer with rudder only and formation will stay in place.
Once close enough, fine tune your bomb run alignment from the F6 view, using the Look Forward view ([8] on numpad) and zoom in again.
One long calibration at that stable speed with no turns before dropping will help you hit every time. Remember that your drones are slightly behind you, so the center of the formation drop is the middle of your formation, not the lead plane.
We do have bombing clinics in the TA. You should check them out when they are scheduled, or see a trainer in the Training Arena for more detailed advice.
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I never bomb at full speed as the planes never REACHES full speed until you've gone most of a sector, and as stated, it's REAL hard to make course corrections
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Originally posted by Latrobe
I've had this happen a few times. Once I looked at my calibration after I dropped and my speed had decresed by atleast 20mph. I'm not sure why though.
i usually bomb in JU's or Lancs.....but i've noticed that speeds vary by as much as 20kts.......also noted that my alt changes een with auto pilot on. the best i can figure is that this is done delibretly to simulate more realisticaly, as we all know that no ww2 bomber held perfect alt, and that no pilot was good enough to hold an exact speed......not a shot at anyone...just reality.
because of this, i make sure my last calibration is within 10 seconds of my drop.....very rarely miss that way.....
hope this helps
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I used to fly Lancs at 23K all the time but have turned to AR234's @ 15K for several camps now. I always drop at full speed but...
In the Lancs I would level and turn to target 2 sectors out. I'd build speed for one sector (doors open) then use the final approach sector for calibration. *Note: If you are opening doors after calibration and just before drop you are losing speed which explains your problem.
In the AR234's I begin this proccess 4 sectors out as they take a long time to get to speed. I use the last 1-1.5 sectors for calibration.
In either plane, last minute couse corrections will bleed off speed (at least 1 mph, possibly as much as 2-3 mph depending on how much correction is needed.) The bleed is worse in the 234's than it is in the other heavies.
Also, after calibrating, particularily in the 234's, you're likely to gain an additional 1-2 feet of altitude (so you want to calibrate as late as possible).
All of this amounts to loss of calibration accuracy, therefore, once the target is in sight and I'm aligned I check E6B and drop alt one final time so I can quickly decide whether my drop has to be at the leading edge, trailing edge or dead center on my target.
If I'm faster or higher I have to drop early. Likewise if I'm slower or lower (unlikely) I have to drop late.
Hope that helps.
[EDIT] Cap1, your alt changes on auto pilot as fuel burns off and your plane becomes lighter (you will slowly gain alt). Similarily, adjusting course with rudder drags off speed and alt decreases as it does.
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I was goofing around in the TA the other night and upped a set of Lancasters. I too have had the same problem and I wanted to see if it was my calibration that was the problem.
After calibration I noticed that the green crosshairs would sometimes be as much as 1/4 inch ahead or behind of the bombsight crosshairs. It seemed the longer I held Y down to calibrate, the closer the actual impact point was to the bombsight crosshairs. Just like it says in the upper right of the bombsight.
How long are you calibrating for? It seemed that between 5-8 sec the impact point would be off a bit, while at 15 sec it was dead on.
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Originally posted by StuB
Have you tried dropping at a slower speed?
If so, did they hit "less short"?
Thanks for all the responses fellas. I was assuming as long as your speed is calibrated it doesn't matter what speed you bomb at. I furthered believed this after noticing my high speed bombing was very accurate, I would be exactly on target only the on exact same short point time and time again.
Further, when approaching a heavily defended front line base slowing down to 240 mph really isn't an option. I also remember times when my high speed bombing was accurate, this problem only crops up occasionally. Tho it happen often in the 234, so much so Ive been taking out formations just so I can hit something.
I can adjust for short bombing sure. But then I'll get in the mode of the problem not occurring. And whats the plan then? Its right back to square one, and an hour wasted of climbing to ALT, flying to and from, and landing.
I'm sure its just some aspect of the game. Maybe I'm just going to fast, maybe its that "ping" thing, maybe its my controller. I understand the fundamentals of bombing and using the views, and Ive been to the training area asking for help on this numerous times. No doubt there just hasn't been anyone available. This is the 3rd time Ive posted about it here in this forum.
I'll get back on it tomorrow as I have a 20 hour workday today. Thanks again, and for the record I put Spike on ignore so I cant read anything he says. He's a Mommies boy.
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A few of suggestion off the top of my head.
* Throttle back to 3/4 throttle well before target AND before calibrating
* Open bomb bay doors well before calibrating
These will help your speed settle, even out and be consistent
* Hold the calibrate key for as long as you can
* Stay in bomber position and use the 'J' and 'K' keys to adjust course (in bomber position you are automatically in auto-pilot and therefore alt will not change)
* Open the clipboard and open the E6b and check your speed, compare it to the calibration speed and adjust throttle as necessary (if you throttled back and opened doors well before then hopefully there really isn't any necessary change)
Hope these help.
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Ive also found B17 and B24 nose gunner ALWAYS points zero degrees-straight-ahead when ya jump into seat...VERY good way to line yourself up WAY before ya can see target on norden....JU88 much harder in this respect
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I'm really new to bombing but I've found that as long as I open up the bomb bay doors and use e6b to adjust my speed until my climbrate is 0 and resting at that before I begin calibration then I hit target every time. I usually adjust climbrate a sector and a half away after lining up initially for target. Seems to work every time for every plane.
edit:
oh btw, even though you use auto level, at higher speeds your climbrate can still be 10 or more at times and drastically affect your accuracy. I haven't bombed enough to know the average speeds for the bombers to get the 0 climb rate, but most of the time it seems to be about 75-85% with a slight reduction in rpm's to fine tune. Obviously fuel and ordnance loads will change this.
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Originally posted by bj229r
Ive also found B17 and B24 nose gunner ALWAYS points zero degrees-straight-ahead when ya jump into seat...VERY good way to line yourself up WAY before ya can see target on norden....JU88 much harder in this respect
Yes...I use the guns to line me to on target...
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You have to allow A LOT of time to get properly calibrated and aligned.
When you're 1 1/2 sectors out from your target (and heading *directly* at it), make sure you open your doors and reduce your throttle setting to about 70% or so and let your speed settle for about 1/2 a sector. After you have travelled that 1/2 sector check your E6B for speed and alt and make sure they stay EXACTLY stable. Any variation is not acceptable. Re-check every 30 secs or so several times to be doubly sure your speed and alt is not changing at all. Now calib your sight. Make sure you hold down the calibrate key for about 20-30 seconds. Now cross-check your E6B against your calibration. They have to be all be EXACTLY identical. make sure your drop alt matches your actual alt within 1 or 2 feet.
Now you're ready to drop.
If you have to make any big course corrections lining up your target, you may have to go through the above again. Or at least do another couple of cross-references against your E6B and bomb-sight calibration. 1 Knot difference will mean you will miss.
It pays to have the clipboard/E6B up all the time so you can keep an eye on your speed as you approach your target.
Remember you have to allow lots of time prior to the drop to allow the perfect calibration. The less time you leave, the less accurate you will be.
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Originally posted by Spatula
You have to allow A LOT of time to get properly calibrated and aligned.
When you're 1 1/2 sectors out from your target (and heading *directly* at it), make sure you open your doors and reduce your throttle setting to about 70% or so and let your speed settle for about 1/2 a sector. After you have travelled that 1/2 sector check your E6B for speed and alt and make sure they stay EXACTLY stable. Any variation is not acceptable. Re-check every 30 secs or so several times to be doubly sure your speed and alt is not changing at all. Now calib your sight. Make sure you hold down the calibrate key for about 20-30 seconds. Now cross-check your E6B against your calibration. They have to be all be EXACTLY identical. make sure your drop alt matches your actual alt within 1 or 2 feet.
Now you're ready to drop.
If you have to make any big course corrections lining up your target, you may have to go through the above again. Or at least do another couple of cross-references against your E6B and bomb-sight calibration. 1 Knot difference will mean you will miss.
It pays to have the clipboard/E6B up all the time so you can keep an eye on your speed as you approach your target.
Remember you have to allow lots of time prior to the drop to allow the perfect calibration. The less time you leave, the less accurate you will be.
sectors, speed, calibration... pffft, Lancstuka is the way to go! say it with me everybody!
Lanc-stuka own! Lanc-stuka own! Lanc-stuka own!
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Haha. Tell 'em Titanic.
JG and I are to lazy for calibration at any rate.
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Again I'll ask, " if the numbers in your calibration screen tell you you are perfectly calibrated then why would your bombs fall short"?
And while Im at it, "if the game tells you you are perfectly calibrated, while you really arent perfectly calibrated, then how do you perfectly calibrate"? And how do you know your perfectly calibrated?
If Im going 240 mph, and Im calibrated exactly at 240 mph, does anyone know why the bombs would fall short consistently? I know Im perfectly calibrated cause they fall exactly the same distance short when this problem crops up.
Thanks to all for taking the time out to offer advice but I know how to calibrate and bomb ,as I said in my original post. I guess I'll have to E-mail tech support as I should have done originally. To those that offered advice, thank you.
I held the calibration key down for a minute and it didnt matter. I couldnt imagine spending a sector and 1/2 in the bombsight while approaching a defended airfield. Another thing thats kind of strange in the TA, in your crosshairs, you get a green "X" that I assume is a tool to help you learn calibration. The X in my B-26 at least always stays a bit under my main crosshair, which means If I drop on it I hit my target.
No matter how much I calibrate however, or how long, at what speed, or anything I do, the green X stays exactly there. Under a bit, and a tad to the left, of the main crosshair.
Thank you Sirs.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
I know Im perfectly calibrated cause they fall exactly the same distance short when this problem crops up.
Perfect calibration exists when your "calibrated speed" matches your true airspeed off your E6B. When they match, you don't miss.
Your bomber has not reached full speed. You're short because the plane has accelerated since your last calibration. The plane is actually flying faster than your calibrated speed.
Open the E6B, reduce it and place it where you want in the bombsite.
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It ain't perfect if you do not get perfect results.
There is a writeup somewhere either to HTC's training site &/or to netaces.com , several pages of valuable how-to. Also, do seaches in the archive here.
Drop your speed to around 160 mph, open bomb bay and get to drop altitude at least a sector and a half out so your speed stabilizes. F6 sets you up in autopilot and "relatively" level. Rudder adjustment is still possible to fine tune over the rudder, outside view. In the F6 / "U" it shows your altitude variance. Adjust your speed so it is stable going in. A 5 mph variation will throw off your drop. (Let's add wind factor...) Everything look good? Now "Y" key and hold 20 seconds minimum, then hit "U". (I zoom in to max on target pick out.) Now, wait until drop target comes on by and hoping I don't get jumped by fighters.
I usually hit what I aim at as if it were a pickle barrel, but I'm not good yet at carpet bombing. I read the Korea ace McConnel's book about his bombing exploits in WWII and practice runs they used bags of flour and empty 55 gallon drums for targets. WWII he was an aircrew medic.
Discouraging to go into target at 12,000 feet and get jumped by fighters. I will be doing runs much higher. I always escape full power, going up. Few bother to follow me. I always bring lots of gas. I start aways back and land there also. Bringing lots of gas leaves me that option. I read a book while my plane gets to altitude.
I train in the main arena under live fire most of the time and my score reflects this.
The untrue believers call us milk-runners? To do it right ain't so easy and obviously they just don't know, but are mean spirited with the name calling.
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Originally posted by Hap
Perfect calibration exists when your "calibrated speed" matches your true airspeed off your E6B. When they match, you don't miss.
Your bomber has not reached full speed. You're short because the plane has accelerated since your last calibration. The plane is actually flying faster than your calibrated speed.
Open the E6B, reduce it and place it where you want in the bombsite.
What Im saying is that the E6B shows me perfectly calibrated and my readout shows me perfectly calibrated. Thats what Im saying here.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo:
No matter how much I calibrate however, or how long, at what speed, or anything I do, the green X stays exactly there. Under a bit, and a tad to the left, of the main crosshair.
Is the bombardier's head position moveable with arrow/pageup-down keys? Could it be you've inadvertently saved a non-default head position which is screwing up your bombsight picture? EZ enuff to check, does the sight picture change when you press the home key? If it does, while looking through the bombsight, press home, then F10 to save the default (centered) head position.
Regards,
Optiker
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heres a tip, when after u calibrate, go to E6B and look wat it says your true airspeed is, and match it with the calibrated speed
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Thanks Optiker. I'll try that. Ive been doing a little better, but again, yesterday I was lined up perfect, calibrate exactly at the same speed and level. And still I hit short.
I contacted AH Tech support, got a one liner, and then silence. I'm starting to get a real low opinion of their Tech support. Yaknow we are paying to play their game.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Thanks Optiker. I'll try that. Ive been doing a little better, but again, yesterday I was lined up perfect, calibrate exactly at the same speed and level. And still I hit short.
I contacted AH Tech support, got a one liner, and then silence. I'm starting to get a real low opinion of their Tech support. Yaknow we are paying to play their game.
I guess they are assuming that you are doing something wrong.
No offence, but I am able to pinpoint bomb with no issues, so my bet is it isn't the game software, it's a user error.
I am on M,Tu and Th. Feel free to look me up and we can go on a buff run. Lets see if we can identify whats going wrong...
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This might help: in offline mode there's a way to get an extra sight which tells you where you're bombs will hit if you release them now. By watching it drift from your bombsight you can see how you are moving away from the circumstances in which you calibrated. It's much quicker to find the problem that way than actually having to drop bombs to see where they land.
I can't actually remember how to bring this sight up but I'm sure somebody here knows.
Trip
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Originally posted by Scca
I guess they are assuming that you are doing something wrong.
No offence, but I am able to pinpoint bomb with no issues, so my bet is it isn't the game software, it's a user error.
I am on M,Tu and Th. Feel free to look me up and we can go on a buff run. Lets see if we can identify whats going wrong...
Very well might be. My question to them however was "is there anything in the game that could cause it"? It was a simple question really. Its either yes or no. My interest was the inherent lag thru the Internet. Ive had a fair share of issues Im still trying to resolve. One of which is the B-25 is totally uncontrollable for me. The controls go haywire no matter what I do.
If I asked Tech support they'd probably say, "calibrate when flying". Well Ive tried that. Its hard to calibrate when the airplane is crashing.
Ive tried the TA with the green thingy and no matter how much I level, how much I control speed, and how long I calibrate, I cant get the green X to line up exactly center.
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Rich, you can fly with me anytime. 99% accurate from any alt. If you don't mind following directions, you can be an uber bomber after 1 run.
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Originally posted by Hap
Rich, you can fly with me anytime. 99% accurate from any alt. If you don't mind following directions, you can be an uber bomber after 1 run.
Remember Hap. A good bomber is a humble bomber.
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All right.
I decided to do some testing. I used a B-17, B-24 and B-26 and did double runs of each at identical alt and power settings using a 12 mile IP from target. Then, I did them again at "Normal" power settings for each aircraft type. I could not get the lead-computing bombsight to align absolutely perfect on any run, so I'm skeptical that others say it can be done.
Calibration was 10 seconds for all.
B-17 - Full power drop was slightly short. Normal power was on target.
B-24 - Full power drop was slightly long. Normal power was on target.
B-26 - Full power and Normal power were all on target.
The following is my subjective opinion:
From an historical perspective, our ability to accurately hit targets is obviously over modeled. We are not launching laser-guided weapons here. Massive bombing missions were the norm because it took massive numbers of bombers to carpet an area in the hope of hitting a target. There never was any such thing as daylight precision bombing. We have no winds aloft and calibration is foolproof.
My opinion is that this small +alpha (unknown variable) in the game is not an issue. The margin of error is very small and even a poor calibration can be easily overcome by bracketing the target with a salvo of 2.
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Why are you using a delay of 0.2 and not 0.05. Your spreading your bombs too much if you are trying to drop hangers.
Also a salvo of 3 is needed if you are dropping 500lbs on a hanger.
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I bomb with all Bombers at full speed....
I toggle all Bombs manually....
I open Bombay Doors a full 2 sectors before target...
I have E6B up in Bombsight....
I Bomb from 17K-25K....
Calibrate many times before target....30 seconds is a bit short...
Recalibrate for 30 seconds when target is within sight...and...
perhaps...if necessary...10-15 more seconds before dropping...
No Problems taking out my targets (unless inbibed a bit too much ;-) )
Perhaps you need to re-calibrate your Joystick?
For Grins and Giggles...on the ground...jump into a gunner position and don't touch your Joystick...is your gunsight moving? If so, re-calibrate your joystick and try again....if the same thing happens...you may be spiking and may need a new joystick...or use some damping in the calibration mode.
Just thoughts...
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First off thanks for the responses. Let me see if I can answer them one by one. Ive had many experiences like Rolex. Im perfectly level at 0, my speed is perfect, I calibrate repeatedly to my speed....and the bombs fall short. If theres something Im doing wrong then its beyond me cause lets face it, this isn't rocket science.
Solar I gradually increased my delay from 0.05 to increase my chances of hitting something. Now I'm at 0.25 with salvos of 2 500lb bombs and doing much better. I increased my delay cause I had to.
Patches the reason why I dont like to continually recalibrate is because normally calibration is hit or miss. If Im going 270, and Im calibrated for 270, when I calibrate again it might come back 273 mph. This mind you without touching anything and while still going 270 mph.
Sometimes I have gunner roll but I always recalibrate the stick when it happens and it stops.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Remember Hap. A good bomber is a humble bomber.
Once you get the system down, you rarely miss. It ain't me. It is easy once corrections are made. It's not like dogfighting where you have to react to variables. We used to have wind to deal with. Not any more, and it was constant.
:)
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Originally posted by Patches1
I bomb with all Bombers at full speed....
I toggle all Bombs manually....
I open Bombay Doors a full 2 sectors before target...
I have E6B up in Bombsight....
Once the green "Calibrated Speed" equals your "True Airspeed" your good to go. Like Patches, if I have the time, I open and level 2 sectors before hand.
Why?
It takes a bit shy of 50 miles for a buff to hitch up her skirts and get going top speed.
I too, ALWAYS, have E6B in bombsite. I do all my navigation, steering, and peering (out the front nose using 8 on keyPAD not keyBOARD) from bombsite.
Sometimes, I don't plan for a 2 sector approach. Then it's match Calib Speed to E6B. For minor adjustments, your - and + key on your KeyPad is invaluable reducing and increasing RPM's quickly and easily thus fiddling with your airspeed. Once you get it down, you can do it by ear.
Another tip: If you're calibrated at 260 lets say, and you've turned using F3, and since you've follwed Patches' advice and your E6B is tucked away someplace not occluding your view and visible to read, go nose down after your turn a tad to get close to your Calibrated Speed that is still locked into your bombsite. Tap F6 and you should be close and won't have to do major fiddling 7 miles from drop.
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Thanks for the advice. I had forgotten about the RPM tabs.
Earlier I had a milk run in my 26s. I calibrated for, like 283 mph, holding down calibration for a long time. As I got closer I made some minor adjustments, got my roll back to 0, and my speed went to 282. So I re calibrated for a long time, like a minute, and the calibration wouldnt come back to 282. It was like 284 or something. The closer I got to the hangars I kept trying to get exact calibration and couldnt. It actually got worse.
I would have been better off just keeping it at 283 mph.
So.....I then went and blew up a radar factory to ease my frustration. I love watching strats blow up. Most of all refineries.
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If our Calibrated Speed is below our True Airspeed, we can slow down without much ado. If our Calib Speed is good bit above our True Airpeed by a good bit and we're quite close to dropping, that's a tougher one.
Rich, if I remember today, I'll look for you, and if you like we can go on a run or two.
:D
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I sometimes lower manifold pressure a few inches before speed stabilization. This way you have some wiggle room in the + direction of the +/- margin of errror on calibration.
Another thing I occasionally did was climb a tad higher than my planned drop altitude. I'd then go into a gentle dive to gain speed and get to my drop altitude and let the speed stabilize. Seems easier to get to that max speed when over it and coming down than to stay level and try to accelerate to it.
I also do all course adjustments while in autopilot from a gunner position, usually the nose or chin gun. I find I loose less speed that way and of course your altitude pretty much stays the same being in AP.
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You can always give up some altitude to gain speed without worrying about drop altitude. If you find yourself at perfect speed but lower than your calibrated alt after doing this, you just have to get into calibration mode for a second without actually calibrating - that way you will set your calibrated alt to your current alt. No need to go through the whole calibration process at all.
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Rich46yo...
For me, Calibration is NEVER hit, or miss (unless I've had too much to drink)! :D
I plan well ahead of my bomber mission; chart my course on the map, look for gaps in Radar Circles and enemy activity near my Target before I take off. No doubt...you do also. In flight I make minor adjustments in my course, as necessary, but always plan for at LEAST a 2 sector, preferably 3 sector, area where I can stabilize altitude and speed.
As I mentioned before...I don't salvo bombs...I drop them manually...and if I am within 2 MPH of TRUE Airspeed...the Bombs hit where the Crosshair is pointing.
Now...on the other hand...if I am a bit fast...I toggle a bit early...if a bit slow...I toggle a bit late...in relationship to the Crosshairs; this you must work out yourself for your style of flying Bombers, and your desired results.
TRUE airspeed is your friend.
Just some thoughts....
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Thats interesting Lusche . Thank you. And thanks to all for the advice and offers to help.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Thats interesting Lusche . Thank you. And thanks to all for the advice and offers to help.
And if High alt bombing does not work...take lessons from TripleD on low level carpet bombing in lancs :D