Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: VWE on September 17, 2007, 03:45:39 PM
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I see these 'mercenaries' all over here... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070917/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AtBcrKr9OwJl3t_Foz64TGgDW7oF
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how do you think their removal will affect operations there?
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The 'reason' given to me as to why I see so many contrators here is that they are doing jobs that would normally be done by soldiers. That being said, from what I've seen it takes 3 times as many of them to do what one soldier can accomplish.
I have yet to see Blackwater as a benafit to operations so their removal, if it actually happens, I'd see as a possitive move. They opperate within the grey areas of law and seem to think they are above it. Personally I don't care for them and would much rather see special forces doing their jobs.
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""They're famous for being very aggressive. They use their machine guns like car horns. But it's not the goal to kill people."
I stumbled across a bunch of Black Water Iraqi Footage a few weeks ago.
funny the only films they had of them. Were them Sniping what I assumed to be insurgents.
They seemed to be having a good ol time of it too
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i'm selling my haliburton stock. :(
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Originally posted by VWE
The 'reason' given to me as to why I see so many contrators here is that they are doing jobs that would normally be done by soldiers. That being said, from what I've seen it takes 3 times as many of them to do what one soldier can accomplish.
I have yet to see Blackwater as a benafit to operations so their removal, if it actually happens, I'd see as a possitive move. They opperate within the grey areas of law and seem to think they are above it. Personally I don't care for them and would much rather see special forces doing their jobs.
I agree with you. I was appalled at their behavior while I was over there. They walk around like they run the place. Imagine every 80s mercenary cliche you can think of, rolled into one and then you have a Black Water employee. Sure the founder of the company might have been an EX Navy SEAL, but most of the employees are trigger happy ex-cops and ex-military supply officers.
I knew this day would come. I think a lot of these guys are confused about what their mission in Iraq is. They run around thinking they are Special Forces since they got their 40 hours of high speed training out at Black Water. Now that kind of thinking has them in hot water.
-Spot
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Originally posted by VWE
The 'reason' given to me as to why I see so many contrators here is that they are doing jobs that would normally be done by soldiers. That being said, from what I've seen it takes 3 times as many of them to do what one soldier can accomplish.
I have yet to see Blackwater as a benafit to operations so their removal, if it actually happens, I'd see as a possitive move. They opperate within the grey areas of law and seem to think they are above it. Personally I don't care for them and would much rather see special forces doing their jobs.
Yea the whole contact part of this war is a bigger sham than the war it's self. I've seen several interviews of US soldiers whom had their job given away to a contractor.
Hell one guy was trained to repair radios or something like that, and had his job taken over by a contractor. The army then put the soldier on guard duty because they didn't have anything else for him to do.
I was also watching the Military Channel yesterday one of the shows that were made with soldier's personal videos from Iraq. The guy was talking about how haliburton bills their meals, by "plates" rather than by what's actually served.
So each plate used by a soldier was billed at $40 each or something close to that. So if a solder took a second plate to cover his food to keep it warm, his meal then cost US tax payers about $80 dollars.
In reguards to Blackwater, they should have never been used as any actual fighting force in Iraq. Their limit should have been protecting high profile personal, mainly meaning corprate heads or high risk civilians.
The sad but true part of the whom sham is, the very guys that worked for Blackwater, will likely be right back in Iraq under a diffrent contractor.
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Originally posted by crockett
In reguards to Blackwater, they should have never been used as any actual fighting force in Iraq. Their limit should have been protecting high profile personal, mainly meaning corprate heads or high risk civilians.
I believe that's all they were doing when this latest incident happened ... they maybe cowboys but wouldn't you be if you were in their shoes? Seems like if you don't shoot and ask questions later when the bombs go off in your face, there may not be a later..
Curious to see if the Iraqi's are ready to fill their shoes with at least as capable protection as the cowboys provided since they are ready to remove that protection by throwing them out..
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I don't think that iraqis will ever be able have security. first of all it's a haphazardly thrown together country that britain cobbled up at the end of the first world war. secondly from the onset they have been fighting each other and only stopping long enough to annoy their neighbors from time to time. iraq and peace or iraq and security has never been a reality. aside from that diplomats have always had to provide for their own security. business people are the ones with the problem in places such as iraq.
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Originally posted by VWE
The 'reason' given to me as to why I see so many contrators here is that they are doing jobs that would normally be done by soldiers. That being said, from what I've seen it takes 3 times as many of them to do what one soldier can accomplish.
I have yet to see Blackwater as a benafit to operations so their removal, if it actually happens, I'd see as a possitive move. They opperate within the grey areas of law and seem to think they are above it. Personally I don't care for them and would much rather see special forces doing their jobs.
V,
I agree with you to a degree that in some cases there are way to many contracters there. I used to be one of them. I have had run-in's with some of the Blackwater Folks traveling from FOB to FOB, and there are many that fit the "Wild Bill" persona. Seems as the years go by, they are recruiting more and more younger inexperienced personnel. You and I have "spoken" a few times when we were both on the game. If you don't remember I used to work w/ the FBCB2/BFT as a Field Support Rep.
In short, I was responsible for a Brigade size element's worth of equipment not to mention all the attachment's, slice element's, and all the other unit's that happened to come by and need assistance. ( Grand total 378 systems)
First and Foremost, I was not signed for any of that equipment, it belonged to the Unit as it should. In my eyes, my job was to train the commo folks to fully understand the equipment and "work myself out of a job" I did that to the best of my ability. Having said that, I can recall many a time(almost everyday) that when I would try and show some commo folks or the operators a thing or two I would get told, "that's your job" Sure, I was a glorified "May-Tag" repair guy, but to me it was more important to train them as I would not be around forever.
I never once turned down fixing something no matter how small the mission was, and believe me, many times they would drive up to my trailer door on Pad 13 on Liberty and bang on the door at 3 in the morning because something would go wrong and they were rolling out. That's not to say I didn't get frustrated, but it was my job.(To help them and to train them) I accompolished quite a bit in the 2 rotations I spent overseas. I could go on and on, but I will preserve your eyesight.
Bottom line I guess I am trying to get to is that.. Yes there are contractors out there that really don't need to be there. Most of us are prior service and have a strong desire to help the soldiers because we have been where they are, and they have our utmost respect. Yes, there are companies out there that care all about the mighty dollar, and charge outrageous amounts of $ to ship our Armed Forces vital supplies that they need. I am proud to say that the Company I worked for kept everything under budget and saved the Gov't money (never flew first class, Severe scrutiny of expense reports, etc). I would like to see a Severe Audit and get rid of some of these companies that are ridiculous.
How about next time you come across a Contractor, say thanks, he/she might actually be a good person trying his/her best to do the right thing.
<> stay safe and get back so we can go have a beer at Ernies!
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Lets not forget, mercenary forces were the only force that stopped the civil war in Sierra Leone.
I'd like to see some actual data on Blackwater's operations rather than just some anecdotal evidence.
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Soultakr,
Haven't you learned that the O'Club always paints with the largest brush in existence? How dare you point out that not everyone is the same! All it takes is one news story without confirmation for the black hoods and axes to come out.
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I didn't paint with huge brush, the only 'contractor' I've mentioned or been asked about is Blackwater. Where in my post did I say all contractors suck? The only parts house I go to is over on Victory and is a Raytheon radar parts place. There are plenty of good contractors I work with, as well as a few bad ones. I'm saying there are far too many for the task at hand. So how bout asking me to clarify if that's whats needed before assuming anything.
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The military doesn't have a monopoly on providing security services nor should it. Why shouldn't people who have a talent and expertise in this area be allowed to practice? Many of them are probably ex-military or law enforcement looking for higher pay. That's the American way.
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if you don't mind my asking: what do you do over there VWE?
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In Army speak I'm a 94M or radar repair. My knowledge base cover 4 radar systems: Q-37 (http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/online_photo_gallery/weapons%20&%20equipment/radar/slides/Q-37.html), Q-36 (http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/online_photo_gallery/weapons%20&%20equipment/radar/slides/Q-36%20SEP-OCT02.html), Q-64 (http://www.deagel.com/Ground-Sensors/ANMPQ-64-Sentinel_a001633001.aspx), LCMR (http://www.syrres.com/stc/products_lcmr.htm) of which the latter 2 systems I'm currently supporting in Iraq.
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you forgot to mention the camel humping bucko
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I'm not going to mention your fetish you've told me about in PMs, I've yet to even see a camel... I suggest you go find a petting zoo.
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heh, careful with the spiders that share your camels. on a side note is it still until march?
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:huh
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All this mercenary bashing.
I`m beginning to get a complex.
Mad Mike would be POed. :)
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Oh God people are turning it into a "Mad Max" movie over there. As if it wasn't one already. Somebody please get the troops outta that friggin place soon, before they all die. Over Abdullah the neighborhood Iraqi who doesn't want them there anyway. Between this and car bombs and people taking pop shots at troops and running away, and equipment shortages poor leadership and bad execution by our government protectors, how are they supposed to do their mission over there again? Those soldiers are amazing for even trying. The place is going to fall to hell after we leave anyway. Those poor troops i don't see how they're making it over there, i hope somebody steps up to the plate for them, i'm tired of political and military leaders, Fu$cking up and making the troops eat a **** sandwhich. Disgusting......(throws hands up in the air).
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we can't just walk away we will be garrisoning iraq for the next hundred years. think korea. actually the next logical place to attack is iran once conquered then the intelligent way to approach that region is to gradually allow a state for the shia, sunni and kurds to sort of congeal. the only real opposition to this sensible plan would come from the turks. the turks fear a kurdistan and they are correct to fear it. I don't know about the b'hai, christians, jews and other minority faiths that choose to remain in their countries though.
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I think anywhere we fight these people they will kill each other and take us with them. Iran, then some other country then some other religious crap. We really just need to get a different fuel source and leave these people alone. Easier said than done but you've gotta dream. I don't think us being there or trying to help these people is going to do much against people hell bent on destruction.
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we have strategic interest in the region. it really boils down to all your bases belong to us. the known petroleum reserves we need for the next hundred years are there therefore so will we be. when people like our national leaders speak of a new world order they mean an our world new world order.
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I'm working on a usable fuel where gas caused by the digestion of beans can be used as an alternative fuel. Of course there will be reprecussions. I'm working as we speak....;) :p
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I dont have time to read this whole tread, but i have to ask this question. Did anyone read the Black Water book? I heard it was good. Just wondering if any of you guys read it and would recommend it?
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Just a point of clarification here. I wasn't talking to you or even about you. It isn't all about you here. You might want to ask me to clarify before assuming anything. Not even you are the entire O'Club.
Copy? :huh
Originally posted by VWE
I didn't paint with huge brush, the only 'contractor' I've mentioned or been asked about is Blackwater. Where in my post did I say all contractors suck? The only parts house I go to is over on Victory and is a Raytheon radar parts place. There are plenty of good contractors I work with, as well as a few bad ones. I'm saying there are far too many for the task at hand. So how bout asking me to clarify if that's whats needed before assuming anything.
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Originally posted by Eagler
I believe that's all they were doing when this latest incident happened ... they maybe cowboys but wouldn't you be if you were in their shoes? Seems like if you don't shoot and ask questions later when the bombs go off in your face, there may not be a later..
Curious to see if the Iraqi's are ready to fill their shoes with at least as capable protection as the cowboys provided since they are ready to remove that protection by throwing them out..
Yes in this incident that's what they were doing, but they have been used in the past as a actual fighting force at certain times.
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
I'm working on a usable fuel where gas caused by the digestion of beans can be used as an alternative fuel. Of course there will be reprecussions. I'm working as we speak....;) :p
Your 50 years too late. Its called methane gas, and its from anaerobic digestion. Some wastewater treatment plants use it to heat and power the plant.
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Originally posted by crockett
Yes in this incident that's what they were doing, but they have been used in the past as a actual fighting force at certain times.
I can see where an organization like Blackwater might be usedful in a combat situation.
Not being part of the US government. They arent bound by the same rules as the US military the can operate in that gray area. And thus be used to that extent.
I can also see where there could be a downside to that as well.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Just a point of clarification here. I wasn't talking to you or even about you. It isn't all about you here. You might want to ask me to clarify before assuming anything. Not even you are the entire O'Club.
Copy? :huh
Pot kettle black, my response was to Soultkr... if you would have read what I wrote, and what Soultkr wrote maybe you would have seen some similarities.
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This is rich. A few months ago there were a couple threads about contractors in Iraq and all the responses were "we have to have them" and "the job can't be done without them" or "every one I've met was super".
Now, there seems to be a lot of flip-flopping. Were you for the contractors before you were against the contractors?
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209990
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213558&highlight=profiteers+Iraq
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Actually what seems to be rich is your inabillity to comprehend. One, this is a thread about Blackwater and two, my posotion on contractors is that they are here out of greed. I've had no flip flopping on this topic.
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Originally posted by VWE
Pot kettle black, my response was to Soultkr... if you would have read what I wrote, and what Soultkr wrote maybe you would have seen some similarities.
I read it, through before I posted. You didn't indicate who you were addressing it to and used a term I had just introduced in the post preceding yours. My assumption was that it was me you were talking to. I made my first post and directed it specifically just to avoid confusion. If your post was not directed to me, sorry, my bad then.
Given a text situation it's hard to tell who is talking to whom without specific names mentioned or a quoted post.
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It's kind of funny. I'm not against contractors in Iraq but it certainly seems like they are not being held accountable?
This was posted a year ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJUEULWEP9c&mode=related&search=
It certainly doesn't present a positive image to the people of Iraq. You need to get the people on your side if objectives in Iraq are going to be met.
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**SIGH**
Wheres Mr. Black when we really need him? :noid
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Buh bye, si a nar eeee http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071009/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_blackwater_report
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
**SIGH**
Wheres Mr. Black when we really need him? :noid
Obviously he is a partner in Blackwater.
He is the tactical genius behind the VIP protection business, but government meddling in his business caused the problems we see today.
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Originally posted by VWE
Buh bye, si a nar eeee http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071009/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_blackwater_report
I dunno, VW-Maliki might want them gone, Iraq might want them gone, The whole friggin' Islamic world might want them gone, but I'm betting they stay to the last. Condoleeza Rice will stall, and stall, and stall, until either she's gone from the White House, or Bush says ok. Maliki's trying to make demands, anymore, and he just sees' the political equivalent of the back of our hand.
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Mr. Black has got to still be here... I think he's crockett now.
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Originally posted by crockett
Yea the whole contact part of this war is a bigger sham than the war it's self. I've seen several interviews of US soldiers whom had their job given away to a contractor.
Hell one guy was trained to repair radios or something like that, and had his job taken over by a contractor. The army then put the soldier on guard duty because they didn't have anything else for him to do.
I was also watching the Military Channel yesterday one of the shows that were made with soldier's personal videos from Iraq. The guy was talking about how haliburton bills their meals, by "plates" rather than by what's actually served.
So each plate used by a soldier was billed at $40 each or something close to that. So if a solder took a second plate to cover his food to keep it warm, his meal then cost US tax payers about $80 dollars.
In reguards to Blackwater, they should have never been used as any actual fighting force in Iraq. Their limit should have been protecting high profile personal, mainly meaning corprate heads or high risk civilians.
The sad but true part of the whom sham is, the very guys that worked for Blackwater, will likely be right back in Iraq under a diffrent contractor.
Whats worse is with posse comitatus being flushed down the toilet these untrained yahoos will be providing "police" services on a street near you after the next disaster. Never mind that they are pretty far from being qualified & trained as cops, they get little gold Federal police badges & police powers.
Speaking of contractors, do a Google for a video called "Lees life for lies", Spc.Lee Kendell Tucker was KIA, his flash drive was captured by the insurgents that killed him. He complains about KBR et al
It can be viewed from here, after registering (free):
http://www.terroristmedia.com/nukem/download-file-934.html
Or from here:
http://lee-flash.blogspot.com/2007/01/download-new-documentry-film-from-iraqi.html
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I was contacted by Blackwater several months ago after I retired and was offered a job over there as a technician working on their comms gear. I turned them down twice. The money would have great...over $80k for a six month deployment.
The reason I didn't do it is because they are mercenaries. I served my time on active duty and I know a few people that signed on with Blackwater and the ONLY reason they did it was for the money.
Now I have a job as a civilian contractor working for the Coast Guard but the big differance between what I do now and what Blackwater does is this. My job is to directly support the products that the Coast Guard uses in it's everyday missions. I work hand in hand with Coast Guard personel to help maintain the systems I work with. Blackwater doesn't. They work outside of the military and do their own thing and that wasn't something I felt comfortable doing.
Contractors can be very helpfull to military operations in a support role. Company tech reps and stuff working on government contracts don't take military jobs away from the troops. They support the equipment produced by their company that the military is using. I see nothing wrong with that, but to be called a contractor while engaging in actual combat operations that the military has no control over is a bunch of crap.
Personally I'd love to see Blackwater kicked to the curb. They have no reason to be over there. If diplomats and VIP's need protection, that is what the State Department Security force is for. If they don't have enough personel to do the job then they need to hire more people. At least then they will be working directly for the government.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
Blah, blah, blah.
Speaking of contractors, do a Google for a video called "Lees life for lies", Spc.Lee Kendell Tucker was KIA, his flash drive was captured by the insurgents that killed him. He complains about KBR et al
It can be viewed from here, after registering (free):
http://www.terroristmedia.com/nukem/download-file-934.html
Or from here:
http://lee-flash.blogspot.com/2007/01/download-new-documentry-film-from-iraqi.html
Man you are so blinded by your anti-war rhetoric you can't tell truth from fiction. Spc Lee Kendell Tucker is not dead, he is very much alive. He is stationed at Fort Campbell, Ky.
This stuff is nothing more than an Iraqi insurgent propaganda video. They got their hands on his flash drive and turned it into propaganda for their group. That isn't even Spc Lee's voice. This is total propaganda and you bought it hook line and sinker.
I swear you hippies get more and more desperate to spread anti-war crap. You guys will post anything that has an anti-war message, no matter if it is truth or fiction. Stop being spoon fed crap and do a little investigating of your own. You will come out looking less like a moron.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/01/dead_us_soldier.html
A simple search done on Tucker. He is not listed by the DoD as a casualty.
http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx
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al quida does not like blackwater, blackwater cheats, blackwater does not play by the geneva rules.
when Iraq can handle security in Iraq, there will be no need for a blackwater in Iraq.
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looks like nothing but a ploy for a huge payday to me:
Iraq wants Blackwater to pay $136 million compensation (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071009/ts_nm/iraq_blackwater_dc;_ylt=ArsvSFL5o06Dd4KOVfCvBo1Z.3QA)
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Originally posted by BBBB
Man you are so blinded by your anti-war rhetoric you can't tell truth from fiction. Spc Lee Kendell Tucker is not dead, he is very much alive. He is stationed at Fort Campbell, Ky.
This stuff is nothing more than an Iraqi insurgent propaganda video. They got their hands on his flash drive and turned it into propaganda for their group. That isn't even Spc Lee's voice. This is total propaganda and you bought it hook line and sinker.
I swear you hippies get more and more desperate to spread anti-war crap. You guys will post anything that has an anti-war message, no matter if it is truth or fiction. Stop being spoon fed crap and do a little investigating of your own. You will come out looking less like a moron.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/01/dead_us_soldier.html
A simple search done on Tucker. He is not listed by the DoD as a casualty.
http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx
It could be fake, it could be real.. this is the internet after all, one link says hes KIA, the other says hes alive... when he shakes my hand & shows me ID, I'll believe he's alive.
The content of the video is what I found interesting, well produced nasty footage... but besides that the data relating the KBR et al is accurate. But I'll tell ya what, lets say this is a hoax.. these "fake" comments about the quagmire & KBR et al mirror those by a confirmed real guy, Sgt Steve Pink, from the film "The War Tapes"... so perhaps theres some truth to the fakeness.
Speaking of fake, the US .gov is a well known producer of bogus propaganda.. 3 senior CIA officers have confirmed Bush knew there were no WMDs:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/
The downing street memo confirms info was cherry picked to fit the war agenda, and the minutes from Spain show Saddam was willing to leave to avoid war. Everything el jefe Bush said about existing WMDS and the dangers of Saddam staying in power were fake.
The Bush admin, like Clinton, even plants fake reporters in the WH press corps to ask scripted fake questions so that the fake reporter can plagiarize a few pro party fake stories. This fake reporter, "Jeff Gannon", was well qualified by republican standards; Gannon is a known male prostitute.
And if the fake reporters aren't being effective, the .gov simply produces it's own fake news that local outlets happily broadcast.
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9592
Just about any "news" these days could be fake, could be real.. thats for people to decide on their own.
If being against an illegal war started by a liar who spun fake low budget fictional drama about a WMD boogie man, so he could make a sad attempt at playing "Army" while his pals get filthy rich makes me a hippie, so be it.
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So basically we can pick and choose our media to fit our agenda? Wow, you are really messed up. "Who cares if it is true or not. It is anti-war, run it!" Is that the new motto for the anti-war movement.
His is not listed as dead, wounded or missing, by the DoD. He is currently stationed at Ft Campbell Ky. Even his mom says so. So basically you are saying this is all a big lie by the govt and even Spec Tuckers mom is in on it. You want the claims being made in that film to be so true it pains you to think otherwise.
-Spot
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Here's another casualty list.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/page6.html
Kendell Lee Tucker isn't on that one either. Pretty darn good chance this guy is alive and well I'd say.
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Originally posted by Eagler
looks like nothing but a ploy for a huge payday to me:
Iraq wants Blackwater to pay $136 million compensation (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071009/ts_nm/iraq_blackwater_dc;_ylt=ArsvSFL5o06Dd4KOVfCvBo1Z.3QA)
...huge payday....for the country that has the largest oil reserves in the world?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
...huge payday....for the country that has the largest oil reserves in the world?
you think the average iraqi sees any of that?
at $8 million a family, you think if they get an 1/8 of that, they'll stay anywhere near Iraq?
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Originally posted by Eagler
you think the average iraqi sees any of that?
at $8 million a family, you think if they get an 1/8 of that, they'll stay anywhere near Iraq?
I don't get what your argument is then.
The Iraqi government is throwing out Blackwater, so that 17 families (out of millions) can get 8 million dollars and then leave Iraq?
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saying it is all about the money after the statement I linked to.
how can anyone make the comparison to the Lockerbie bombing?
they don't want blackwater out if they become a cash cow with this "settlement".
Just saying that if an average iraqi gets a mil, their arse won't see another iraqi sunset as they will be dead if they stay but more likely they'll move into the 21st century somewhere else maybe CA or NY ..
and who can tell the innocent from the quilty, who gets a check? It's all crap. that is my argument.
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How much is iraq suing al queda for? Anyone???
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Here is the latest bit about iraq getting blackwater out of their country. While I support their desire to safeguard their population I'm still wondering what they have done about suing al queda and how they will insure that their operatives leave their country. It seems that the use of IED's has done more killing there than even blackwater yet no real uproar over the ones that use them daily.
Please note that I am NOT excusing blackwater, just making a comparison.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071014/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_blackwater&printer=1;_ylt=AuJVcZHMYQn70akp5eomw0gUewgF